Chiroz
Tier Lists? Foolish...
Hey, my name is Raykz some of you might know me from my previous posts on this subforum. I am writing a whole "mini-guide" on Greninja from the information I've gathered from playing the game and choosing him as my main against some of the very best Brawl and Melee players.
Here goes:
[collapse=Section I: Who am I?]
I am a Smash player who has played at least more than 50 matches with Greninja against some of the best Smashers in the country. I am by no means “extremely skilled”, but I consider myself to be fairly decent at the game at a competitive level. I am not a top Brawl or Melee player myself, I don't consider myself to be as skilled as they are, but I have played against some of the best (top 8 and top 16) Brawl and Melee players in Smash 4 using my Greninja and have won some sets against them (Although I’ve lost most) which gives me a bit of confidence in what I am writing.
You do not have to believe that what I am saying is some word of god or something, I might be wrong in many of the things I write down here, as I have said, I am not exactly the most skilled player ever. The game is also in it's very infant stages which means anything we know might change in a day.
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[collapse=Section II: Opinion on Greninja]
First off: Why Greninja? Well as you can tell I am a huge Mewtwo fan. I’d like to say I am a huge Pokemon fan and while I truthfully enjoy the games very, very much and I love doing the occasional speed runs and Pokemon tournaments with my friends I cannot consider myself a true Pokemon fan simply because I’ve missed the last 2 gens completely. I haven’t played a single Pokemon game since the release of Pearl and that is because I never bought a DS/3DS (until about 4 months ago, because I am a huge Smash fan
).
Basically, I do not know any of the Pokemons introduced in the last 2 gens of Pokemon, not one. That said, my 3rd favorite Pokemon of all time Mewtwo, did not make it into the game and as such I was left with yet another big hole from the Brawl days. Normally I pick my main with a couple of “requisites”. Out of those there is “coolness” factor, overall connection between the character and me but most of all it’s playstyle. And Greninja’s playstyle just feels so good and refreshing for me. Plus I love how his moves are based around tricking your opponent.
Greninja is fast, slippery and can disrupt the opponent very well. He doesn’t seem to have high 40-70% combos like some but his ability to disrupt the opponent and kill his pacing makes up for it as you will be building damage quickly just by keeping up with the pressure and demoralizing your opponent.
Greninja isn’t exactly your “aggro” type of playstyle like Little Mac is (or at least that's not how I play him). He isn’t a campy character like Duck Hunt or Robin either. I feel like Greninja is more about weaving in and out of combat. Using his projectiles effectively, beating any other character’s camp game but going in as soon as your opponent doesn’t expect you to or makes a mistake. One of the key aspects of Greninja is being unpredictable and being able to switch your playstyle at a given moment as his kit does allow for various different play styles from what I have seen.
Note that the above is my own personal view of him and you might find another way to play Greninja effectively.
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[collapse=Section III: Opinion on Greninja’s Moveset]
Jab:
Greninja has 2 jabs.
He has a 1-2-3 Jab which ends in an open palm strike. This is the jab combo you should be using against all characters who have a fast way to react to your jab combo. The third hit knocks them back far away taking away any chance of them retaliating. You should also use this combo if you notice that your opponent is just barely in range, because otherwise he will just VI/DI out of your infinite jab combo and retaliate.
Greninja’s infinite jab is decent. Like any other multi-hit it sucks the opponent a fair amount although with proper VI/DI your opponent will just escape it. The finisher is automatically activated when your opponent leaves the area of the multi-hit but sometimes it might miss if your opponent DI/VIs correctly so try to release the combo slightly before your opponent gets out of range.
Use your jabs in order to interrupt combos or grabs. You can interrupt things such as Mario’s “F-Tilt combo” (at 0-15%) by just VI/DI downwards + jabbing. Greninja’s jab in particular is good to get some distance between you and your opponent as down-tilt and up-tilt don’t create any distance and all of his other ground moves (F-Tilt, Up-Smash, F-Smash and Down-Smash) have a fair amount of start-up lag that will get punished. If your opponent just runs up at you, jabbing them in the face is the safest way to get distance. Down-Tilt is also very good to disrupt your opponent's movement though.
Dash Attack:
Greninja’s dash attack is very fast and safe. You can space it to hit with the tip of the toes and it’s great. It keeps you low to the ground which allows you to dodge many projectiles like Pit’s Arrow and Zamus’ Stun Gun. The dash attack pops opponents in the air right in front of you allowing you to follow up with any aerial, but be wary the hitstun is very low so the aerials aren’t “true combos” you will have to read your opponents next choice and punish accordingly (If you become too predictable with the followups you will probably get punished yourself). As with any dash attack, even if this is a very good one, try not to use it as your main approach tool as it’s very easy to shield grab you once the opponent catches on. At low %s you can use this and follow up with an Up-Smash or Up-Tilt. At high %s use this to set up for your Forward Air in order to try and land a kill or set up for your Back-Air in order to get your opponent off stage and edgeguard him.
Grab:
Greninja’s grab is decent. It makes you believe it has larger range than what it does have, but it’s range is not that great (It isn’t horrible though). It’s kind of a slow grab (not horrible slow, but not fast enough), so if your opponent is very grab centric I would suggest jabbing him instead as most grabs will beat yours and he will grab you first (Plus the fact that in this game grabs don't have super armor which means that attacks>grabs in priority. Jabbing your opponent will break any grab attempt he tries at you). Aside from that it's just like any other grab basically.
Which throw should you use?
Until now I haven’t been able to find any “true” combo followups, but the throws themselves do place your opponent on perfect spots for “links”.
Down-Throw can link into Forward-Air if your opponent doesn’t dodge or attack you himself. Also if your opponent dodges automatically without thinking (or just lands without moving) you can link this throw into Up-Tilt, Up-Smash or Up-Air. You can get hard reads into kills at high % by throwing into Up-Smashes, but your opponent must be tricked into landing with lag.
Forward-Throw is very similar to Down-Throw only it leaves opponents close to the ground. At low % you can link into a dash attack almost always (as long as your opponent doesn’t shield).
Back-Throw is good to throw your opponents off stage. It doesn’t place them at an exactly desirable position for any attack but you can follow your opponent in the air and try to chain some back-airs on him after this throw.
Up-Throw. Depending on your opponents VI you might either go for a back air, a forward air or an up-air. All 3 are completely dodgeable but being on top isn’t a very favorable position for most characters in this game which means that you can either frame trap them into a dodge or get a hard read on them to continue your current juggle. Some characters might have an easy time getting around all 3 of your aerials and some (like Little Mac) might have a gimmick allowing them to bypass them (his counter). Normally by understanding what your opponent can do you can predict his choice and actually punish him for it. This is a great throw for this type of gameplay.
Up throw also becomes a kill move ~140-150% if it’s fresh. If you haven’t killed your opponent around these % then just try and up-throw them. Depending on their weight it might kill them (Around 170-180 for Bowser which is the heaviest character).
Opinion:
I find myself using Up-Throw against most characters on low %s. It leads into easy Up-Airs or frame traps by just short hopping without inputting any attack, allowing you to drop down and punish your opponents air dodge (Or use a technique we will discuss later on to continue your combo). When a character is higher % or against characters who beat me out aerially (from the top) I just forward throw or back throw depending on which one takes them out of the stage faster (Sometimes I Up-Throw to try and go for an Up-Air or Up-B kill off the top, but this depends on how my opponent reacts the first few times I Up-Throw them).
Aerials:
Down-Air:
Greninja’s Down-Air is sort of like Toon Link’s Brawl DAir. It can spike if you hit on the beginning frames of the move, but if you miss it off-stage you are dead 100%. It’s a very risky move with a huge reward. This move has momentum cancelling so if you perform it while going upwards you will float for a small while but the move also lasts incredibly long so if you use it in this way you will most definitely get punished no matter where your opponent is. If you hit an opponent on the head Greninja will bounce upwards (and so will the opponent). At very low % it sets up into itself but try not to spam it as this move has an incredible amount of lag when it lands (but thankfully Greninja has a move that cancels all lag, which is his Side-B but more on that later). At higher %s this moves starts setting up into either Neutral Air, Back Air or Forward Air depending on where your opponent is VI/DIng. Note that depending on your opponents VI/DI and their current % this CAN be a true combo with 0 chance for your opponent to react (apart from his VI/DI input).
Up-Air:
Greninja’s Up-Air is excellent. Awesome range, it comes out fast, it lingers and is multi-hit. It even auto cancels on landing. This move becomes a kill move at the mid 100’s, so if you’re having trouble killing your opponent then keep an eye for this attack. Keep in mind that Greninja’s body is NOT a hitbox while this move is active. Only his feet and legs are hitboxes. You might miss a lot of Up-Airs you thought should have landed because most characters have “weak” hitboxes in their bodies (while the strong ones are in their legs, IE Sheik) while Greninja has no hitbox in his body at all.
There is an specific advanced technique Greninja can perform with the Up-Air which opens up enormous opportunities for his combo potential, gimping potential and kill potential in general. This will be discussed further on.
Forward-Air:
One of Greninja’s good kill moves. It has a bit of lag on startup. It also has a little bit of lag after the move and doesn’t cancel on landing. The move has a bit of range (not that much) and is a disjointed hitbox, you can use this knowledge to your advantage against others who don’t have disjointed hitboxes. The good part of this move though is that it hits hard and far. This move should basically be used as a combo finisher or to land a kill at very high %s. Your dash attack and your Down-Tilt pop opponents perfectly for a link into this move, your opponent will be able to react though (it’s not a true combo) but if you can read his reaction from a dash attack or down-tilt you can land this move for a KO at higher %s.
Neutral Air:
This will be Greninja’s option for a “get away from me” aerial. This aerial also has some startup lag, but it auto cancels upon landing. It’s a basic N-Air with Greninja’s body being his hitbox. This is also the only aerial that has the possibility to hit below Greninja without having to commit to huge end lag. Most of the time when you are in the air opponents will try to place themselves below you but will have plenty of time to avoid a Down-Air, you always have the option to fast fall one of these bad boys. There’s the added bonus that many moves can link into this aerial and you can link into other moves from it (Note: link, not combo). I end up using this aerial more than any other (except maybe Back-Air). The reason I use this aerial more than F-Air is because it auto cancels and the hitbox lingers for a small bit allowing you to “crash” into your opponent to land the move.
Back-Air:
This move is AWESOME. It has a lot of range, comes out incredibly fast, hits multiple times, hits at different angles and auto cancels when landing. It has almost no lag even when not auto cancelled. You can chain them into each other in order to knock your opponent away from the stage. You can use this to edgeguard your opponent with great ease. I believe this will be Greninja’s bread and butter approach aerial. WIth the huge range and fast speed you can short hop and space these aerials, auto cancel them and just keep spamming and spacing them for a safe approach.
The only problem with this aerial currently is how hard it is to “space” aerials perfectly or retreat/advance aerials with the 3DS controls. Doing retreat aerials or switching from advancing to a retreating (or vice versa) aerial while spacing it perfectly is almost impossible without a C-Stick and it’s even harder with the “slippy” pad (circle pad). This takes away a lot of the Back-Air’s greatness. The Back-Air is still awesome on the 3DS though, it will just get more awesome once the Wii U version releases.
Tilts:
Down-Tilt:
Greninja’s down-tilt is extremely quick. Greninja is also crouching while performing it which allows him to avoid a great plethora of attacks (including projectiles which I’ve mentioned before). Greninja’s down-tilt pops enemies up right in front of him allowing him to try and follow up with many, many attacks. It’s one of Greninja’s best combo set ups and its speed allows Greninja to use it when he is being pressured. Use this as a combo set up at high %s to set up for your Forward Air in order to try and land a kill or set up for your Back-Air in order to get your opponent off stage and edgeguard him or depending on your opponents VI/DI even Up-Air is a possibility for starting a juggle combo. If you can “trick” your opponent into air dodging you can probably get away with an Up-Smash as he is landing.
Up-Tilt:
Greninja’s up tilt is great. It’s fast it pops opponents in the air. It either hits opponents low enough for you to chain it into another Up-Tilt (or Up-Smash) or pops them up high enough to link it into a Short-Hopped Up-Air. Remember that there is not a huge amount of hitstun after this move so try not to make your follow up too predictable or too obvious. You can try to make your opponent think you are going for an Up-Air so that he dodges or throws an aerial and then fast fall into an Up-Smash for another hit (or another Up-Tilt).
Remember that Up-Tilt starts behind Greninja and it’s Greninja best attack to cover his own back. If your opponent happens to be on your back (which happens a lot in this game) then just Up-Tilt and it’s all good. Also remember Up-Tilt doesn’t hit in front of Greninja so don’t use it if your opponent is in front of you, it won’t hit.
Forward-Tilt:
This move has a small bit of startup and a small bit of end lag, not too much though. What it lacks in quickness it more than makes up for in range and utility. It hits very far and pushes your opponent away just enough where he will be out of range from any attack but not so much that you couldn’t also keep pressure on him as soon as your lag ends. It’s a great ground spacing tool. It also helps disrupt your opponent’s movement incredibly. You can just throw these to any dashing opponent and you’ll hit them from a range where none of their own attacks can hit you and he can’t shield grab you either.
Remember that this move can be used with pivots from a dash (pivot tilts). That raises the utility of this move as you can can in front of an opponent and just tilt them away or if you run and someone chases you you can space them with this move pretty effectively.
Smashes:
Down-Smash:
All of Greninja’s smashes have a bit of startup and also a bit of endlag. That said the down-smash isn’t that great of a smash. Normally the good thing about down-smashes is that they are “safe” options. They normally have quick slightly lingering hitboxes (or multi-hits) which hit on both sides of the character and inside of him. Greninja’s down-smash isn’t a multi-hit or a lingering hitbox and it isn’t as fast as others but what’s worst is that it doesn’t have that great of a range.
That said, it isn’t a horrible move. It isn’t that slow that you can’t use it, it doesn’t lack that much range that you can’t hit it and it doesn’t have that much lag that it’s extremely punisheable. Basically the move is subpar but it isn’t worthless. I actually think that Up-Tilt plus Down-Tilt can cover all of the options any other Down-Smash does, but it’s 2 moves instead of one which doesn’t allow you as much safety as 1 move that covers everything (as you have to guess which to throw), also neither of the tilts can hit as hard as a Smash obviously.
Down-Smash is still usable as a “safe” smash for a very slippery opponent or to punish roll dodges.
Forward-Smash:
Greninja’s 2nd best kill move . It has a bit of lag at the start and at the end but it’s a great move. It has good range, it’s disjointed and it hits hard (well, hard for Greninja). This move is either extremely VI/DIable or it has an angle property depending on where you hit as I’ve seen many people go straight horizontal or people go very diagonal when I hit them.
This Smash should be used as any other F-Smash on other characters, punish mistakes with range, space it for a good hit. Charge it when you can read your opponent into a punish. Remember to try to keep this rather fresh once your opponent is higher than 100% as you want to have several options as kill moves because otherwise you will become predictable when searching for the kill blow and you won’t get it.
Up-Smash:
Greninja’s best kill move by far. This move actually has a “sweetspot” in a manner of speaking. Basically if you hit with both swords the move sends vertically upwards and does more knockback (killing at earlier %s). If you only hit with 1 sword then the move will send your opponent flying in a certain angle depending on at what time of the animation was he hit by the move (dealing less knockback and being less probable to kill).
This means that you should always try to land the hit at very start of the move in order to hit with both swords and get the stronger blow. This move, as all other Greninja Smashes has a little bit of startup delay and end lag, but it makes up for it in range and power. It has awesome disjointed range and it hits very, very hard (for Greninja). It also covers a lot of space around Greninja as the end of the move hits in front and in the back of Greninja. His best smash by far.
Lots of moves link into Up-Smash at early %. Take advantage of this as this is a very easy smash to land (specially since you can do it out of a run). Try to “freshen it up” as your opponent starts reaching the 100’s so that you can kill him easily when your opponent hits the 110 mark.
This move can hit through the platforms of every stage currently deemed legal which is AWESOME. You can stand below the platform and hit people standing on it (and if you hit someone like this you are guaranteed to hit with the sweetspot).
You should always use this to punish frame traps out of dodges or aerials. It’s awesome to bait an air dodge from your opponent (or punisheable aerial) just so they eat an Up-Smash in the face. Normally I always punish with Up-Smashes until the opponent is around 70% at which point I switch to punishing with Forward-Smashes or Up-Tilts to Up-Airs (which link at that %) to freshen up my Up-Smash.
Specials:
Down-Special:
Just like everyone, I saw/read this special and thought: It’s going to be really bad. Then I learned it was Greninja’s strongest move and thought it might be decent. Then I saw the move in actual gameplay and noticed just how much it lagged and thought: “Wow, it really is crap!” And then I learned you could control it appearing in one of 8 different locations and moving in one of 8 different directions for a total of 64 possibilities out of this move and thought “It might have potential”. But now that I’ve had some experience with Greninja I can truthfully say, this special will never hit any decent opponent.
First, this is the second hardest if not hardest counter to time in the game. The counter window is extremely short. Once you are hit Greninja sort of strikes a post before disappearing which queues your opponent as to what’s about to happen. As if that wasn’t enough Greninja lasts about half a second before reappearing and attacking the opponent. The problem with all of this is that even after laggy moves such as a F-Smash your opponent still has very ample time to act. Some people theorize (like I did before) that the ability to appear from one of 8 positions and move in one of 8 directions would help as your opponent would have to “guess” what you’re about to do, but the problem is that just by shielding your opponent beats any of the 64 options.
No matter how laggy the move is your opponent still has enough time to shield before the counter hits him which makes this. The counter itself spaces you enough so that you won’t get punished afterwards (unless your opponent power shields or has some extremely fast attack with long range) but any decent opponent will learn to just shield your counter by reaction and basically render the move useless in terms of countering.
In the air counter is actually more powerful, as your opponent will have to time his air dodge (or an attack) in order to stop the counter, so if your opponent doesn’t know Greninja very well he might not be able to time the dodge correctly. (A decent opponent will learn the timing quickly though so it will go back to being useless).
There is a second use though for counter. One that isn’t very obvious and that’s movement. Say an opponent is below you and he has great aerial options to attack you from below, leaving nothing for you to do. You can counter his attack, appear below him and counter downwards to instantly land on the stage. If you’re recovering and your opponent’s character is very adept at gimping, or say you are recovering from under the stage and he tries to hit you from above, you can counter, appear above him (or below if you want to try and hit him) and counter upwards towards the ledge.
Basically with this ability you can help your recovery or “evade” inconvenient situations when your opponent has you in an unfavorable position. It’s still a very hard counter to land and it’s extremely risky to do this and hope for your opponent to hit you, so just do it if you know you can counter a hit and that it can help you in some way to recover/evade.
Custom Specials Opinion:
Out of his 3 counters, I think the standard is the worse. It’s already too slow to punish anything so making it slower is no problem.
The strong counter takes away a little over half of the opponent’s shield. It’s also Greninja’s strongest kill move. It’s still impossible to land on an opponent who is decent at the game. It can be used on an opponent who has been abusing his shield, or you can go full pressure on your opponent after he shields one of these counters as his shield will be so low you will either hit him through it or break it.
Explosion is probably his best special out of the 3. I haven’t tested this one at all but its the fastest one and it doesn’t require you to counter. As I said I haven’t tested this one but I think you can use it as a “slow spot dodge that can kill”.
Neutral Special:
Greninja’s neutral special is like having many neutral specials in one. The shuriken has a property that the more you charge it, the less it travels and the slower it travels too.
A great majority of the time you will just be using uncharged shurikens. These little beasts come out really fast, don’t have that much lag and travel very, very fast. They are basically like Falco’s laser.
Greninja’s full charge shuriken becomes a 5 hit multi-hit move that can KO. It’s rather hard to aim, specially when in the air since Greninja sort of “hops” slightly when he throws it. If you can get an opponent offstage with one of these it’s almost a guaranteed kill (specially if they already used their 2nd jump).
Mid charge shurikens don’t seem to have different properties than the uncharged one. You are basically trading an small increase in damage for a slower moving projectile with a shorter reach (and a charging time). It isn’t worth it to charge a shuriken half way to be honest unless you are just charging it in order to “time/aim it”.
Uncharged shurikens can deal with most projectile spammers, they clash with most of the projectiles in the game (and can even stop Luma midtrack and return Gordos to Dedede). Because of their speed they will normally beat any other projectile spammer like Link or Robin by just clashing with their projectiles and throwing the next one faster than the opponent. The fully charged shuriken seems to go through (and destroy) almost any “non-charged” projectile.
Uncharged projectiles will allow you to keep distance from your opponent and even force him to approach. Because shurikens are so fast it is really hard to punish you out of them unless you just spam them all over. At times you can just use this to keep pressure on your opponent and not allow him any breathing room, creating an unsafe environment for your opponent and throwing off his game. Never underestimate the psyche of your opponent and just how much "breaking his rhythm" can hurt his overall game.
The best use for water shuriken is to just use uncharged ones like you would Falco’s laser. Try not to become too spammable or predictable as they will get you punished. But you can slide 3-6% every now and then and completely throw off your opponent's pacing (this is really important, in games like this pacing means everything).
You can also force characters to approach you with intelligent use of these guys. In Smash 4 almost all characters have ways to deal with projectiles like this one but here is where being smart plays off. If you start using these you know your opponent will want to use one of these options to get through your projectile. Now their options to approach you are severely limited to one of these options, and as long as you don’t get yourself trapped in lag you can predict accordingly which option he will use and punish accordingly!
Custom Specials Opinion:
I think the standard or the 3rd option are the best.
Using the 2nd custom ability takes away all options to use the shuriken as a laser/projectile. Sure that option can be used to pressure shields and overall be more aggressive (plus you can sort of use it as an edge-guard) but I don’t think the added ability to create pressure is worth losing one of the best projectiles in Smash 4 (which is Greninja’s only projectile too).
The third option seems pretty solid. I haven’t tested it yet but it looks like it might be very good. Basically it takes away the option to “full charge your shuriken” but it gives your mid charge shurikens a new property. They now knock the opponent in your direction. This allows you to try and link your shurikens into other attacks. This definitely requires more testing for me to give my own input.
Up-Special:
Greninja’s Up-Special is soooo good. It’s a Pikachu Up-Special only, much, much better. It has at the very least 16 directions (might have more), it can be redirected in the middle (to a maximum of 2 directions). It has awesome range and it’s pretty fast. Everything you want from a recovery. The biggest problem with this recovery is that it doesn’t have a hitbox in the front (top). In the back the move deals 2% per pump of water (with a max of 4 pumps of waters). Here’s the kicker, the pumps don’t have a hitbox (hurtbox) they have windboxes. This means that you can push your opponent without dealing any hitstun or cancelling any of their actions. This leads into many, many possibilities. We will discuss most of these possibilities in the Advance Technique section further on. It is good to note that the push is actually huge, it pushe very, very far away. (And pushes further the more pumps hit your opponent).
Custom Specials Opinion:
His “huge single pump” custom is probably going to be worthless since it completely takes away the option to perform the advance technique we will discuss later, basically killing a huge number of options for Greninja. It also takes away your option to direction your Up-B which means your opponent will always know exactly how you're recovering, allowing him to gimp you very easily. It also makes Greninja’s Up-B a hurtbox instead of a hitbox. There might be some use to this (it might spike or something), but I haven’t tested it yet so I can’t really comment on it that much.
His other special I know literally nothing about. I know its slower but more powerful (more range). It’s usefulness will 100% depend on whether it changes the windbox for a hurtbox. If it does then it will also take away your new advance technique and it’s probably not worth to take. Once I can test it I will talk about it.
Side-Special:
I’ve read many controversies on this move, let me go out and say this move is actually very awesome. First I think this is the move that gives Greninja his “personality” in this game. Apart from that the move is Greninja’s 4th (or maybe 3rd, haven’t tested vs F-Air) best kill move in the game (well 5th/4th if you count counter, but you will never be able to land counter on decent opponents). At first it might seem hard to land, but truthfully it isn’t in a real match. The think about this move is that it can’t just be spammed or used “randomly”, it’s supposed to be used with reads.
Now I’ve gotten the usual response “if you can read your opponent, why not punish with something else that’s better?” Well that’s because this move has specific properties that allow you to punish much easier than with other moves. I’ve been able to counter many approaches by just using Side-Special at the right time appearing behind them. You can catch opponents who aren’t expecting it. When you are off stage, your opponent will have no idea whether you are charging this ability or not, you can use this to punish an opponent who tries to edge guard or to guarantee a kill on someone who is returning to the stage. The important part is not to spam this move or your opponent will be expecting it, it’s all about him NOT expecting it.
Using this ability may catch an opponent trying to edgeguard you completely unaware, but most importantly you can land very early kills by using this ability aggressively outside of the stage on a returning opponent. Something Greninja definitely needs.
You can use this ability to space!!!!! The kick Greninja does after he appears has more range than ALL of his moves. If for example a Marth misses an F-Smash on you, you might not have enough time to move forward and then forward smash him (since you aren’t in range), but you are in range to just press side-B (don’t charge at all), it will hit him.
You can also use this ability to catch projectiles spammers who aren’t expecting it. I’ve gone through a Pit spamming arrows, a Link spamming boomerangs + arrows, etc with this ability and instantly punished them. This ability is also the bane of people with “charged” projectiles. When Rosalina starts charging Luma you can instantly charge side-B until the shadow is next to her and then as soon as she releases Luma you release side-B. You will not only dodge the Luma heading straight at you but you will also instantly punish her. If she doesn’t want to release Luma then it’s perfectly fine, just release Shadow Sneak once the shadow reaches behind her, instant punish :D.
Another use for Shadow Sneak is for “trick approaches”. You can do things such as pivot dancing into Shadow Sneak. Seemingly fleeing from your opponent and turning into Shadow Sneak. Or my personal favorite just running towards your opponent into Shadow Sneak right when you’re about to reach him (and finishing behind them). Normally opponents expect you to either dash attack or try and grab them from a run. As such most of the time they will react with either an attack, a shield->drop or a spot dodge, all of which lose to Shadow Sneak (because of the small delay). Even if your opponent notices quickly enough and doesn’t drop shield or reacts fast enough before the move hits him, there aren’t many options to punish you out of this that fast. Unless your opponent outright expects you to do this he isn’t going to get a very good punish out of it, while you just might get a good hit. As always it is essential that you don’t just spam this freely or use it too much as it will become too predictable and then you will start getting hard punished. If anything, in a regular 3 stock match, I am able to get about a max of 2 or 3 of this type of Shadow Sneak (“trick approaches” Shadow Sneak) .
Shadow Sneak also has a unique property, it cancels the lag off all of Greninja’s aerials. As soon as Greninja touches the ground he can start a Shadow Sneak no matter what his lag state is. If you are landing from one of Greninja’s 2 laggy aerials (Down-Air or Forward-Air) you can instantly Side-B to cover yourself and hit an opponent that was really close by. Be wary though, performing Side-B will put you in just as much if not more lag than the aerial so don’t just use this randomly when you land on the floor. Only use it if you know that cutting your lag for this attack will probably catch your opponent unaware.
IMPORTANT NOTE: There are certain stages that have NO shadows. This makes it impossible for the opponent to know if Greninja is charging Shadow Sneak or not. These stages allow for a much more lenient use of this ability as you can use it almost at any time without being noticed. All of these stages are NOT legal unfortunately, but you can choose their FD variations in order to get this advantage.
Confirmed stages to not have shadows: Pictochat 2, NES Stage, Gameboy Stage, PacMaze
Untested stages which might not have shadows: Flatzone 2, Golden Plains
Custom Specials Opinion:
I am very undecided with the Side-B’s customizations.
There is one which allows Side-B to so fast that it basically loses all of its cons, but it also loses the ability to aim it and it also loses almost all of its kill potential. It goes from being a “tricky” catch your opponent unaware move to be a very reliable punish move that can probably be spammed throughout the match for good damage. This customization also becomes a huge hard counter against characters who like to spam projectiles for the reasons stated above. Having this customization though will make your use of this ability much more predictable too as people will know the exact range and will know the exact uses you have for it. Most people will be expecting it much more since it’s a reliable move you can actually use and as such they will be more prepared to block it/punish it.
The other custom makes Greninja unable to run while charging it, thus making it obvious that he is charging it (while on the ground). The shadow can move further from Greninja though and Greninja will also be able to fall while performing the ability which actually helps surprise opponents MUCH more (but doesn’t help as much with recovery). The move itself also becomes slower with Greninja taking more time to disappear and reappear. The biggest problem with this custom is that it takes away some of the options that the standard side-B allows just because of how slow it is. Things like countering missile spammers will become a much harder deed for Greninja as it will be much more obvious that he is charging his Side-Special. So what does this custom have to make up for it? It becomes Greninja’s strongest kill move by FAR. It kills about 20% earlier than Up-Smash.
Honestly I really need to test all side-specials to see which one fits my playstyle better, but if there is a way I can fit customization 3 in there I probably will since it provides Greninja with a much needed kill move.
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[collapse=Section IV: Advanced Techniques]
This section will deal with some of the more “advanced” techniques that Greninja players will need to know and master in order to reach a higher level of play with the ninja frog.
I-) Multi-Hit Spike:
A multi-hit spike is a new technique that allows any multi-hit ability that hits more than 3 times to spike an enemy when certain conditions are met.
First: Why is this useful to Greninja?
Well Greninja’s Up-Air is a multi-hit ability that hits more than 3 times. This means that Greninja can use his Up-Air and transform it into a spike if he uses the move correctly! This can lead to high damage combos at low % and to kill combos at high %, it can also be used offstage to spike the enemy!
How does this technique work?
In Smash 4 multi-hit moves (that hit more than 3 times) have a property where all of the “small” hits change the opponents direction and speed to a copy of yours. What this means is that if you’re going upwards at a 45 degree angle when one of the small hits lands on an opponent then they will also start going upwards at a 45 degree angle. If on the other hand you are falling straight down at fast fall speeds when you hit your opponent then so too will your opponent start falling directly downwards (while in hitstun!).
One very important thing to keep in mind is that the last hit of the move will pop your opponent upwards, so in order for this move to spike you must either:
1-) Cancel the move by landing before the last hit comes out
2-) Hit your opponent in such a way that he leaves the hitbox before the last hit comes out.
How to perform this technique:
Right now these seem to be the rules for this technique to work:
1. In Smash 4 when you perform an aerial you are taken OUT of fast fall. As such you must fast fall AFTER performing the aerial.
2. You must be fast falling before hitting the opponent with the move.
3-) You must hit your opponent with a tip of the hitbox, in such a way that as soon as you hit him your opponent will immediately leave the hitbox OR you must auto cancel the move before the final hit comes out.
So as a rule you must fast fall after performing the aerial but before hitting your opponent on the very edge of the hitbox. This just means that you must time the attack so that it comes out right before your opponent "falls into" the hitbox so that you have enough time to input the fast fall before the aerial hits him (in such a way that he will remain outside the hitbox once the first hit lands). All of this assuming your opponent is on top of you.
If you don't time it correctly you will either completely miss the attack, you might not be able to fast fall the Up-Air or your opponent will simply eat the whole move and the last hit will pop him upwards (If you don't fast fall early enough and you hit the opponent then the Up-Air will make you hover until it ends).
An easier way to perform this technique is also to just activate the attack while slightly above your opponent, this will allow you to fall on him once you start the fast fall and will also assure that you hit him with the very tip of the hitbox thus assuring the spike.
Apart from the obvious spiking offstage properties, this technique can definitely lead into combos on stage too as Greninja’s up-air completely auto-cancels on landing. When you use this technique on stage it basically acts exactly as a spike with the following properties:
1-) Your opponent will either stick to the ground while crouching in a small amount of hit lag. (low %)
2-) Or he will bounce upwards (This can be teched)
You can use this technique to get 100% assured combos as long as:
1-) Your opponent is at low enough % where he doesn’t bounce
OR
2-) Your opponent doesn't tech and doesn't bounce too high (this is dependent on his weight and what % he is at)
Note: Even if your opponent techs the bounce you then get the opportunity to tech chase into a punish which is still very nice.
Cool Facts: At low %s you can use this technique to get some sick combos on stage. I've personally done Up-Air Fast Falled Grab into Up Throw into another Up Air Fast Falled Up-Tilt into a Forward Air (This wasn't exactly a "true" combo because Up-Tilt to Forward Air isn't a real combo).
Also at high %s if your opponent doesn't tech the bounce (and has a relatively heavy character) this can lead into kill combos. I also personally killed a Bowser Jr at 100-110% by doing a Up-Air Fast Falled Up-Smash (he bounced right into the top of my Up-Smash).
Another property is that, as we've already seen, on grounded opponents when the bounce is too small if your opponent doesn't tech the bounce then you can get a free lock combo on them (refer to the Metaknight video). Basically leading into 2 tilts + a strong hit of your choice on the reset.
I am sure there are many other creative ways to use this technique. Hope to see some more in the future.
II-) Pump Pushing (naming pending):
One of Greninja’s main techniques is the act of using his Up-B (Hydro Pump) in order to push opponents away in many different situations.
This technique can be used to space, to avoid edge guards, to edge guard yourself, to gimp opponents, as a punish to certain moves and even as a kill move itself!
How does this technique work and how do I perform it?
Basically you aim the water of your Up-B towards your opponent. The more diagonal the water hits your opponent, the more you push him upwards. The closer you are to your opponent when the water hits him the farther it pushes him away (vertically).
It’s as simple as that.
What are some of its uses?
Characters who have horrible aerial momentum can be pushed away from the ledge by your Up-B and they won’t be able to make it back to the edge. This is especially powerful against characters that have horrible recoveries, such as Little Mac or Link, one push of your Up-B at any % and they are dead. Remember that your Up-B will always push upwards and away but you can try and control just how much it pushes vertically and how much it pushes horizontally.
In order to push the least amount vertically then try to be as far away from your opponent as possible as you hit him with the tip of the water, if you want to push him the most possible vertically then try to initiate the Up-B while being right next to him. As for horizontal, I’ve noticed that the more angled your Up-B is, the more it pushes the opponent upwards. Also if your opponent is below or above you when the water hits it seems to register as an angled hit and he gets pushed further upwards like an angled hit. If you want to try and minimize the horizontal push then you need to be perfectly parallel to your opponent as you perform the move (Note that it will still push him slightly upwards, but you will see a very defined difference between angled and straight Pump Pushing).
Get creative with this technique!
You can start getting crazy edgeguards like raising an opponent that was going to land on the edge so that he lands on stage and then hitting him with a smash in the face. Pushing players like Ness out of their Up-B trajectory! Making weird combos with more Pump Pushes to push your opponent even farther away from the edge or upwards, etc.
When coming back on stage, you can try to push your opponent away with the Up-B before landing. There are several ways to achieve the water pushing your opponent before you land on stage such as grabbing the edge and then Up-Bing through your opponent (which will push him off the stage), or Up-Bing away from the stage to push them and then instantly coming back and landing while they’re far away, etc.
Your opponent doesn't always have to be offstage for a kill!
You can get early kills on people with “momentum” aerials or specials. Whenever an opponent uses a momentum aerial or special you can get a free kill by Up-Bing them off from the stage, the water will make them “hover” while they’re being pushed but as soon as the water stops coming they will drop like a rock. You can get kills on Yoshi’s down-B, Bowser’s Down-B, Ike’s Up-B, Dedede’s Up-B, Kirby’s Up-B, etc, etc. (I personally killed a Bowser who used down-B on me at the very center of FD, I pushed him all the way out of the stage and he fell to his doom).
You can space people by hitting them with this move in the face while grounded. There is not much use as this move only does 2% damage point blank but if you ever want to use it as a free 2% and a “get away from me” move then you can do so very easily. Just aim the Pump Push diagonally upwards while grounded and you will push your opponent away while not moving yourself. You can use this to knock people offstage too very easily.
This move can actually kill from the top!
If you hit your opponent with a diagonal angled Pump Push while he is moving upwards (jumping or using Up-B) from the ledge he will shoot to the edge of the bubble area (Omega Stages). If you manage to do this while slightly above the stage it will put your opponent at the very ceiling (kill range). If you manage to do this at around Greninja’s full jump height then this move can actually kill your opponent from the top. I’ve been able to kill 2ce with it. The first time it was a Robin who double jumped my up-throw and I Pump Pushed him upwards and got a Star KO. The second was a Robin too who ledge jumped (pressed jumped while grabbing the ledge) I Pump Pushed him from underneath and he has used his Up-B right as I Pump Pushed him (he was trying to spike me), my Pump Push placed him right at the very edge of the ceiling and his 2nd Up-B made him blow up on the ceiling.
This technique is the ultimate punish!
You broke your opponents shield? Just Pump Push them offstage for a free kill. Jigglypuff failed to rest you? Pump Push her off the stage and teach her why she should never try to rest a Greninja ever again! Your opponent Up-Bed above the stage? Push him off the stage, as long as his character has bad aerial mobility then he shouldn't be able to make it back to the stage.
Try to get really used to this technique. Practice, practice, practice. It is thoroughly needed that you understand when and how to use this as this is one of Greninja’s greatest tools.
Perfect Shadow Sneaking:
What is this and why is this here?
One of the major concerns about shadow sneak that I’ve seen is “when and how would I be able to use this?” Many people seem to believe that shadow sneak has no use in the meta except for “surprising opponents who don’t look at the ground”. While “Perfect Shadow Sneaking” is not really a “new” or “hidden” technique, I myself view it as an “advanced” use of the attack that not everyone will be using it as.
So what do I mean by “Perfect” SS?
I refer to “Perfect” SS to using SS as a pre-emptive counter or punish. Basically you have to get an easy read on your opponent and counter it with an SS.
Wait, if I can get a read on my opponent then why not counter with a much better move like a smash or a combo?
That depends on how good your read is. See being able to counter with a smash or sometimes a combo probably means you were able to bait something rather obvious or extremely laggy out of your opponent. Being able to read that your opponent is going to perform a laggy move requires much more understanding of his playstyle than what a “Perfect” SS would. Why is that you ask? Well because a Perfect SS counters a great plethora of moves, actually it counters most of them.
A Perfect SS is the act of baiting any move out of your opponent while having Shadow Sneak active or being close enough to perform it instantly. In this scenario you don’t need to “read” your opponent perfectly, you just need to know the fact that he is going to attack with something and space any and all of his moves out, your shadow sneak will have higher range.
Perfect SS goes through projectiles too, as you can teleport through the projectile and still hit your opponent. If your opponent is “holding” a projectile and doesn’t release it then you can teleport behind him. If he does release it then you can release shadow sneak as soon as he releases the projectile and it’s a free punish.
Now, Raykz… This is easier said than done. How exactly are you going to bait a move as you are already charging your Shadow Sneak? Your opponent will see the shadow and just stand until you release it and then shield it.
This is where the “advanced” part comes in. This isn’t a technique to be used randomly. You aren’t supposed to be charging it so early that your opponent realizes that you’re charging it. Basically you are required to know when you have successfully baited an attack before you see the animation come out. You must be aware your opponent is attacking (or going to attack) as soon as he does it and charge your SS as his hitbox is coming out, releasing SS as soon as his hitbox is about to expire for a free hit.
Say you are fighting a Marth and you bait an F-Smash out of him. Normally you would have to wait for the F-Smash to come out, finish and then run in with a move of your own. Depending on the spacing between you and Marth you might not even be able to get a punish. By Perfect SSing you basically charge an SS as soon as you know he just performed (or is about to perform an F-Smash) by the time the F-Smash finishes your shadow will already be in place for you to punish out of it, no matter what the spacing is.
For projectiles users it depends on how laggy the projectile is, but sometimes its even much easier. You can start charging the shadow as soon as you know he just used the projectile and let go as soon as the projectile passes the shadow’s location.
Say a Rosalina starts charging Luma Shot. As soon as you see the starting frames of her charge then you start charging SS yourself. If she releases Luma then you also release SS, dodging Luma and hitting Rosalina for free. If she doesn’t release Luma (waiting for SS to activate or something) then just wait until the shadow is behind her and then teleport to punish her. (If you do it while it’s in front she will probably just release Luma Shot and hit you with it when you reappear).
One key thing to take into consideration is that SS has HUGE range. It’s something most Greninja’s still don’t realize. You can place the shadow about a full shadow and a half away from your opponent and the move will still hit on appearance. The range from where the “shadow circle” is and where the move can hit at max range is actually longer than Marth’s F-Smash (tested by myself). So you don’t need to move the shadow all the way to your opponent, you just need to move it about 1 Marth F-Smash away from your opponent.
Taking the speedy custom of SS makes using Perfect SSing very, very simple. It will allow you to counter projectile spammers without any kind of thought or effort. But it also will deal less damage and it will stop being a kill move and it won’t have enough knockback to set up for edgeguards at low %s. So if you want to be able to just use Perfect SSes here and there to get some free damage and don’t care about killing your opponent or setting up edge guards then by all means use that custom.
Wall clinging:
Unlike Brawl in this game you can wall cling as many times as you want (I have personally clinged 6 times) but every time you wall cling the time is cut by about half. The first wall cling lasts an exuberant amount of time, like seriously it's ridiculous. By the time you wall cling the 5th time you must press jump immediately in order to actually get something out of it. I was able to get a jump out of the 6th just because of how little it lasted (even though I was spamming jump as I grabbed the ledge).
From a wall cling you can either jump backwards, jump upwards or simply drop. To jump backwards simply press back, to drop simply press down. You would assume that to jump you have to press up and yes, you do. But I have tap jump off so sometimes pressing "up" doesn't register as a jump from a wall cling. This is why I press the jump button instead. Also pressing the jump button allows you to jump "diagonally" (upwards and away or upwards and forward).
So if there is an infinite amount of wall cling and you can also jump upwards from a wall cling what's stopping you from just wall clinging infinitely? There's a 1 second recling timer which completely stops you from clinging back to the wall. In that 1 second you will drop more than the distance gained from the jump. Meaning that doing this will only make you drop further down little by little.
So why is wall cling useful?
Well it allows you to have an extra jump when recovering, which is very nice. It also helps make your recovery much less predictable as you could Up-B, instantly jump upwards from the wall or just stick to the wall.
Apart from recoveries there's also edgeguarding. Wall clinging allows to wait for your opponent at the perfect position and even being able to adapt to your opponents position (being able to jump backwards or upwards or just dropping) without even wasting your second jump. It will also give you a bigger safety net in case you want to follow your opponent far away from the screen.
Greninja has a unique property!
When Greninja is grabbing the edge of a "walled" Omega the game counts him as being in a "wall cling" for some reason and as such he is able to do his "free" jumps from the edge. This allows you to either jump high into the air while still retaining your second jump or jump backwards and enter the stage with an instant back-air!
Other wall clinger can sort of do this with a small trick (Doing a hadouken input from the edge towards the stage will allow your wall clinger character to drop the ledge and then immediately wall cling right underneath it, you can then proceed to do exactly what was described above) but Greninja can do this without needing to input any special tricks (Greninja cannot do the special input for this trick as the game will enforce the 1 second recling rule on Greninja thinking he was clinged already).
It's good to note this only happens on "walled Omegas" though and even on stages with walls like Yoshi's Island you will need to input the small trick in order to simulate this effect.
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[collapse=Extra Section: Videos]
Most of the videos showcase at least one of Greninja's techniques and they are interesting to watch if you want to know how to perform said techniques. As for skill level, take into account all of those replays are from friday/saturday night so I hadn't had much practice yet except for the 3 times I went to my friend's house. I have more replays from yesterday I will upload soon. I wasn't able to play on Sunday (except with some friends in which I normally pick other character's to learn them).
Currently today I feel I am much more skilled than I was 3-4 days ago (even though it sounds stupid it's about 3 times the gametime!). I have more replays from yesterday I will upload soon. I wasn't able to play on Sunday (except with some friends in which I normally pick other character's to learn them).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFtkd73NvNw&list=UUttG16jT_EvO9Z2LbBXvp_g
Me vs Sonic. There's a clear demonstration of Up-Air Spike into Up-Smash kill combo.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_PABv8AOWI&list=UUttG16jT_EvO9Z2LbBXvp_g
Me vs Yoshi. The video shows how kill any Yoshi that likes to spam Down-B.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqwIybufEA8&index=4&list=UUttG16jT_EvO9Z2LbBXvp_g
Me vs ZSS. I am able to hit her with both hits of Up-B and kill her through the horizontal blastzone with Up-B pretty good.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5Vw89gOyuY&index=5&list=UUttG16jT_EvO9Z2LbBXvp_g
Me vs Fox, nothing really special.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Qna0a7MP3s&index=6&list=UUttG16jT_EvO9Z2LbBXvp_g
Me vs Greninja. There's a pretty funny moment where I gimp his Up-B with my own.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fw3gS8if4VA&index=7&list=UUttG16jT_EvO9Z2LbBXvp_g
Me vs Pac-Man.
IMPORTANT. I am able to cancel his B-Air knockback and hitstun with a Shadow Sneak. I have tried to replicate this but have been unable to. But there is a way to sort of cancel knockback and hitstun with Shadow Sneak.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhgGqrjadf0&list=UUttG16jT_EvO9Z2LbBXvp_g&index=8
Me vs Little Mac. This video shows why it's important to remain unpredictable. I am able to tell that this Little Mac just spams air dodge all the time in the first 12 seconds of the match. I bait an airdodge out of him once I see him use his second jump and land a free F-Smash for a kill.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6uEjQR2FC-s&list=UUttG16jT_EvO9Z2LbBXvp_g&index=12
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1X_0lvAcPvI&list=UUttG16jT_EvO9Z2LbBXvp_g&index=10
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ul_R0os45jU&index=11&list=UUttG16jT_EvO9Z2LbBXvp_g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zn65W-N6_I&list=UUttG16jT_EvO9Z2LbBXvp_g&index=9
Me vs a Robin. All 4 games are against the same person. These videos showcase a small bit how after you can tell when someone is about to spam projectiles you can start punishing with Shadow Sneak pretty effectively.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhfHKNY8300&list=UUttG16jT_EvO9Z2LbBXvp_g&index=13
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nf9pgnOCh24&list=UUttG16jT_EvO9Z2LbBXvp_g&index=14
Me vs Link followed by another game of me vs Little Mac. (Different players).
A cookie cutter combo to kill any character with bad recovery (Link, Little Mac, etc) Is just Back-Throw then bait out their second jump and then just B-Air them. Use Up-B to gimp if needed but most of the time you won't even need that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjJ1aH4aXtk&index=15&list=UUttG16jT_EvO9Z2LbBXvp_g
Me vs Yoshi. This Yoshi has pretty good combos and approaches. Unfortunately he doesn't know how to adapt. I struggled a lot the first match (which is this one) to understand how to fight him but I quickly learned he liked to spam Down-B as soon as I threw him. I tried gimping him early but failed and once he was at high % I decided to purposely not punish his Down-B so that he wouldn't stop using it and I could get a very early kill on his second stock by gimping his Down-B.
We played around 5 games him as Yoshi (and about 5 more him as other characters earlier), I won all 5 and even 2 stocked him the last 2 matches because of his inability to adapt and change. Once I figured him out and what his patterns were I could counter him pretty easily.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yacm8H0n5v4&index=16&list=UUttG16jT_EvO9Z2LbBXvp_g
Me vs Peach. The Peach is pretty bad but the video showcases that Up-B can kill from the top.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBevmnU70_o&list=UUttG16jT_EvO9Z2LbBXvp_g&index=17
Me vs Bowser. Another person who I couldn't get the hang of fighting at the start. He liked to just spam Up-B and Down-Smash and I was still unaware of how fast and how long those 2 moves are. At the very end you can see Up-B screw his recovery and allow me to get a free kill. We played a second game in which I started to catch up to Bowser's Up-B and Down-Smash properties and punished him almost every time. He ragequit after I 2 stocked him the 2nd game.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCw2od8zCuM&index=18&list=UUttG16jT_EvO9Z2LbBXvp_g
Me vs Link. Just like last video, this one also shows how Up-B can set up your opponent to a situation where all he can do is fall on the edge/stage and you basically get a free kill. In this video you can also see instances of what I called in my thread as "Perfect Shadow Sneaking". I purposely use Shadow Sneak to avoid/dodge his attacks while punishing them instantly too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MkthJYOCaYI&index=19&list=UUttG16jT_EvO9Z2LbBXvp_g
Me vs Duck Hunt. This game had a lot of delay which didn't allow me to do anything right. You can see Up-B kill from the top though.
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Coming soon…..
Section 5: General Strategies, Tips and Tricks with Greninja
Section 6: General Matchup Information
Section 7: A-) Specific Matchup Info vs Little Mac
B-) Specific Matchup Info vs Robin
C-) Specific Matchup Info vs Rosalina
Here goes:
[collapse=Section I: Who am I?]
I am a Smash player who has played at least more than 50 matches with Greninja against some of the best Smashers in the country. I am by no means “extremely skilled”, but I consider myself to be fairly decent at the game at a competitive level. I am not a top Brawl or Melee player myself, I don't consider myself to be as skilled as they are, but I have played against some of the best (top 8 and top 16) Brawl and Melee players in Smash 4 using my Greninja and have won some sets against them (Although I’ve lost most) which gives me a bit of confidence in what I am writing.
You do not have to believe that what I am saying is some word of god or something, I might be wrong in many of the things I write down here, as I have said, I am not exactly the most skilled player ever. The game is also in it's very infant stages which means anything we know might change in a day.
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[collapse=Section II: Opinion on Greninja]
First off: Why Greninja? Well as you can tell I am a huge Mewtwo fan. I’d like to say I am a huge Pokemon fan and while I truthfully enjoy the games very, very much and I love doing the occasional speed runs and Pokemon tournaments with my friends I cannot consider myself a true Pokemon fan simply because I’ve missed the last 2 gens completely. I haven’t played a single Pokemon game since the release of Pearl and that is because I never bought a DS/3DS (until about 4 months ago, because I am a huge Smash fan
).Basically, I do not know any of the Pokemons introduced in the last 2 gens of Pokemon, not one. That said, my 3rd favorite Pokemon of all time Mewtwo, did not make it into the game and as such I was left with yet another big hole from the Brawl days. Normally I pick my main with a couple of “requisites”. Out of those there is “coolness” factor, overall connection between the character and me but most of all it’s playstyle. And Greninja’s playstyle just feels so good and refreshing for me. Plus I love how his moves are based around tricking your opponent.
Greninja is fast, slippery and can disrupt the opponent very well. He doesn’t seem to have high 40-70% combos like some but his ability to disrupt the opponent and kill his pacing makes up for it as you will be building damage quickly just by keeping up with the pressure and demoralizing your opponent.
Greninja isn’t exactly your “aggro” type of playstyle like Little Mac is (or at least that's not how I play him). He isn’t a campy character like Duck Hunt or Robin either. I feel like Greninja is more about weaving in and out of combat. Using his projectiles effectively, beating any other character’s camp game but going in as soon as your opponent doesn’t expect you to or makes a mistake. One of the key aspects of Greninja is being unpredictable and being able to switch your playstyle at a given moment as his kit does allow for various different play styles from what I have seen.
Note that the above is my own personal view of him and you might find another way to play Greninja effectively.
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[collapse=Section III: Opinion on Greninja’s Moveset]
Jab:
Greninja has 2 jabs.
He has a 1-2-3 Jab which ends in an open palm strike. This is the jab combo you should be using against all characters who have a fast way to react to your jab combo. The third hit knocks them back far away taking away any chance of them retaliating. You should also use this combo if you notice that your opponent is just barely in range, because otherwise he will just VI/DI out of your infinite jab combo and retaliate.
Greninja’s infinite jab is decent. Like any other multi-hit it sucks the opponent a fair amount although with proper VI/DI your opponent will just escape it. The finisher is automatically activated when your opponent leaves the area of the multi-hit but sometimes it might miss if your opponent DI/VIs correctly so try to release the combo slightly before your opponent gets out of range.
Use your jabs in order to interrupt combos or grabs. You can interrupt things such as Mario’s “F-Tilt combo” (at 0-15%) by just VI/DI downwards + jabbing. Greninja’s jab in particular is good to get some distance between you and your opponent as down-tilt and up-tilt don’t create any distance and all of his other ground moves (F-Tilt, Up-Smash, F-Smash and Down-Smash) have a fair amount of start-up lag that will get punished. If your opponent just runs up at you, jabbing them in the face is the safest way to get distance. Down-Tilt is also very good to disrupt your opponent's movement though.
Dash Attack:
Greninja’s dash attack is very fast and safe. You can space it to hit with the tip of the toes and it’s great. It keeps you low to the ground which allows you to dodge many projectiles like Pit’s Arrow and Zamus’ Stun Gun. The dash attack pops opponents in the air right in front of you allowing you to follow up with any aerial, but be wary the hitstun is very low so the aerials aren’t “true combos” you will have to read your opponents next choice and punish accordingly (If you become too predictable with the followups you will probably get punished yourself). As with any dash attack, even if this is a very good one, try not to use it as your main approach tool as it’s very easy to shield grab you once the opponent catches on. At low %s you can use this and follow up with an Up-Smash or Up-Tilt. At high %s use this to set up for your Forward Air in order to try and land a kill or set up for your Back-Air in order to get your opponent off stage and edgeguard him.
Grab:
Greninja’s grab is decent. It makes you believe it has larger range than what it does have, but it’s range is not that great (It isn’t horrible though). It’s kind of a slow grab (not horrible slow, but not fast enough), so if your opponent is very grab centric I would suggest jabbing him instead as most grabs will beat yours and he will grab you first (Plus the fact that in this game grabs don't have super armor which means that attacks>grabs in priority. Jabbing your opponent will break any grab attempt he tries at you). Aside from that it's just like any other grab basically.
Which throw should you use?
Until now I haven’t been able to find any “true” combo followups, but the throws themselves do place your opponent on perfect spots for “links”.
Down-Throw can link into Forward-Air if your opponent doesn’t dodge or attack you himself. Also if your opponent dodges automatically without thinking (or just lands without moving) you can link this throw into Up-Tilt, Up-Smash or Up-Air. You can get hard reads into kills at high % by throwing into Up-Smashes, but your opponent must be tricked into landing with lag.
Forward-Throw is very similar to Down-Throw only it leaves opponents close to the ground. At low % you can link into a dash attack almost always (as long as your opponent doesn’t shield).
Back-Throw is good to throw your opponents off stage. It doesn’t place them at an exactly desirable position for any attack but you can follow your opponent in the air and try to chain some back-airs on him after this throw.
Up-Throw. Depending on your opponents VI you might either go for a back air, a forward air or an up-air. All 3 are completely dodgeable but being on top isn’t a very favorable position for most characters in this game which means that you can either frame trap them into a dodge or get a hard read on them to continue your current juggle. Some characters might have an easy time getting around all 3 of your aerials and some (like Little Mac) might have a gimmick allowing them to bypass them (his counter). Normally by understanding what your opponent can do you can predict his choice and actually punish him for it. This is a great throw for this type of gameplay.
Up throw also becomes a kill move ~140-150% if it’s fresh. If you haven’t killed your opponent around these % then just try and up-throw them. Depending on their weight it might kill them (Around 170-180 for Bowser which is the heaviest character).
Opinion:
I find myself using Up-Throw against most characters on low %s. It leads into easy Up-Airs or frame traps by just short hopping without inputting any attack, allowing you to drop down and punish your opponents air dodge (Or use a technique we will discuss later on to continue your combo). When a character is higher % or against characters who beat me out aerially (from the top) I just forward throw or back throw depending on which one takes them out of the stage faster (Sometimes I Up-Throw to try and go for an Up-Air or Up-B kill off the top, but this depends on how my opponent reacts the first few times I Up-Throw them).
Aerials:
Down-Air:
Greninja’s Down-Air is sort of like Toon Link’s Brawl DAir. It can spike if you hit on the beginning frames of the move, but if you miss it off-stage you are dead 100%. It’s a very risky move with a huge reward. This move has momentum cancelling so if you perform it while going upwards you will float for a small while but the move also lasts incredibly long so if you use it in this way you will most definitely get punished no matter where your opponent is. If you hit an opponent on the head Greninja will bounce upwards (and so will the opponent). At very low % it sets up into itself but try not to spam it as this move has an incredible amount of lag when it lands (but thankfully Greninja has a move that cancels all lag, which is his Side-B but more on that later). At higher %s this moves starts setting up into either Neutral Air, Back Air or Forward Air depending on where your opponent is VI/DIng. Note that depending on your opponents VI/DI and their current % this CAN be a true combo with 0 chance for your opponent to react (apart from his VI/DI input).
Up-Air:
Greninja’s Up-Air is excellent. Awesome range, it comes out fast, it lingers and is multi-hit. It even auto cancels on landing. This move becomes a kill move at the mid 100’s, so if you’re having trouble killing your opponent then keep an eye for this attack. Keep in mind that Greninja’s body is NOT a hitbox while this move is active. Only his feet and legs are hitboxes. You might miss a lot of Up-Airs you thought should have landed because most characters have “weak” hitboxes in their bodies (while the strong ones are in their legs, IE Sheik) while Greninja has no hitbox in his body at all.
There is an specific advanced technique Greninja can perform with the Up-Air which opens up enormous opportunities for his combo potential, gimping potential and kill potential in general. This will be discussed further on.
Forward-Air:
One of Greninja’s good kill moves. It has a bit of lag on startup. It also has a little bit of lag after the move and doesn’t cancel on landing. The move has a bit of range (not that much) and is a disjointed hitbox, you can use this knowledge to your advantage against others who don’t have disjointed hitboxes. The good part of this move though is that it hits hard and far. This move should basically be used as a combo finisher or to land a kill at very high %s. Your dash attack and your Down-Tilt pop opponents perfectly for a link into this move, your opponent will be able to react though (it’s not a true combo) but if you can read his reaction from a dash attack or down-tilt you can land this move for a KO at higher %s.
Neutral Air:
This will be Greninja’s option for a “get away from me” aerial. This aerial also has some startup lag, but it auto cancels upon landing. It’s a basic N-Air with Greninja’s body being his hitbox. This is also the only aerial that has the possibility to hit below Greninja without having to commit to huge end lag. Most of the time when you are in the air opponents will try to place themselves below you but will have plenty of time to avoid a Down-Air, you always have the option to fast fall one of these bad boys. There’s the added bonus that many moves can link into this aerial and you can link into other moves from it (Note: link, not combo). I end up using this aerial more than any other (except maybe Back-Air). The reason I use this aerial more than F-Air is because it auto cancels and the hitbox lingers for a small bit allowing you to “crash” into your opponent to land the move.
Back-Air:
This move is AWESOME. It has a lot of range, comes out incredibly fast, hits multiple times, hits at different angles and auto cancels when landing. It has almost no lag even when not auto cancelled. You can chain them into each other in order to knock your opponent away from the stage. You can use this to edgeguard your opponent with great ease. I believe this will be Greninja’s bread and butter approach aerial. WIth the huge range and fast speed you can short hop and space these aerials, auto cancel them and just keep spamming and spacing them for a safe approach.
The only problem with this aerial currently is how hard it is to “space” aerials perfectly or retreat/advance aerials with the 3DS controls. Doing retreat aerials or switching from advancing to a retreating (or vice versa) aerial while spacing it perfectly is almost impossible without a C-Stick and it’s even harder with the “slippy” pad (circle pad). This takes away a lot of the Back-Air’s greatness. The Back-Air is still awesome on the 3DS though, it will just get more awesome once the Wii U version releases.
Tilts:
Down-Tilt:
Greninja’s down-tilt is extremely quick. Greninja is also crouching while performing it which allows him to avoid a great plethora of attacks (including projectiles which I’ve mentioned before). Greninja’s down-tilt pops enemies up right in front of him allowing him to try and follow up with many, many attacks. It’s one of Greninja’s best combo set ups and its speed allows Greninja to use it when he is being pressured. Use this as a combo set up at high %s to set up for your Forward Air in order to try and land a kill or set up for your Back-Air in order to get your opponent off stage and edgeguard him or depending on your opponents VI/DI even Up-Air is a possibility for starting a juggle combo. If you can “trick” your opponent into air dodging you can probably get away with an Up-Smash as he is landing.
Up-Tilt:
Greninja’s up tilt is great. It’s fast it pops opponents in the air. It either hits opponents low enough for you to chain it into another Up-Tilt (or Up-Smash) or pops them up high enough to link it into a Short-Hopped Up-Air. Remember that there is not a huge amount of hitstun after this move so try not to make your follow up too predictable or too obvious. You can try to make your opponent think you are going for an Up-Air so that he dodges or throws an aerial and then fast fall into an Up-Smash for another hit (or another Up-Tilt).
Remember that Up-Tilt starts behind Greninja and it’s Greninja best attack to cover his own back. If your opponent happens to be on your back (which happens a lot in this game) then just Up-Tilt and it’s all good. Also remember Up-Tilt doesn’t hit in front of Greninja so don’t use it if your opponent is in front of you, it won’t hit.
Forward-Tilt:
This move has a small bit of startup and a small bit of end lag, not too much though. What it lacks in quickness it more than makes up for in range and utility. It hits very far and pushes your opponent away just enough where he will be out of range from any attack but not so much that you couldn’t also keep pressure on him as soon as your lag ends. It’s a great ground spacing tool. It also helps disrupt your opponent’s movement incredibly. You can just throw these to any dashing opponent and you’ll hit them from a range where none of their own attacks can hit you and he can’t shield grab you either.
Remember that this move can be used with pivots from a dash (pivot tilts). That raises the utility of this move as you can can in front of an opponent and just tilt them away or if you run and someone chases you you can space them with this move pretty effectively.
Smashes:
Down-Smash:
All of Greninja’s smashes have a bit of startup and also a bit of endlag. That said the down-smash isn’t that great of a smash. Normally the good thing about down-smashes is that they are “safe” options. They normally have quick slightly lingering hitboxes (or multi-hits) which hit on both sides of the character and inside of him. Greninja’s down-smash isn’t a multi-hit or a lingering hitbox and it isn’t as fast as others but what’s worst is that it doesn’t have that great of a range.
That said, it isn’t a horrible move. It isn’t that slow that you can’t use it, it doesn’t lack that much range that you can’t hit it and it doesn’t have that much lag that it’s extremely punisheable. Basically the move is subpar but it isn’t worthless. I actually think that Up-Tilt plus Down-Tilt can cover all of the options any other Down-Smash does, but it’s 2 moves instead of one which doesn’t allow you as much safety as 1 move that covers everything (as you have to guess which to throw), also neither of the tilts can hit as hard as a Smash obviously.
Down-Smash is still usable as a “safe” smash for a very slippery opponent or to punish roll dodges.
Forward-Smash:
Greninja’s 2nd best kill move . It has a bit of lag at the start and at the end but it’s a great move. It has good range, it’s disjointed and it hits hard (well, hard for Greninja). This move is either extremely VI/DIable or it has an angle property depending on where you hit as I’ve seen many people go straight horizontal or people go very diagonal when I hit them.
This Smash should be used as any other F-Smash on other characters, punish mistakes with range, space it for a good hit. Charge it when you can read your opponent into a punish. Remember to try to keep this rather fresh once your opponent is higher than 100% as you want to have several options as kill moves because otherwise you will become predictable when searching for the kill blow and you won’t get it.
Up-Smash:
Greninja’s best kill move by far. This move actually has a “sweetspot” in a manner of speaking. Basically if you hit with both swords the move sends vertically upwards and does more knockback (killing at earlier %s). If you only hit with 1 sword then the move will send your opponent flying in a certain angle depending on at what time of the animation was he hit by the move (dealing less knockback and being less probable to kill).
This means that you should always try to land the hit at very start of the move in order to hit with both swords and get the stronger blow. This move, as all other Greninja Smashes has a little bit of startup delay and end lag, but it makes up for it in range and power. It has awesome disjointed range and it hits very, very hard (for Greninja). It also covers a lot of space around Greninja as the end of the move hits in front and in the back of Greninja. His best smash by far.
Lots of moves link into Up-Smash at early %. Take advantage of this as this is a very easy smash to land (specially since you can do it out of a run). Try to “freshen it up” as your opponent starts reaching the 100’s so that you can kill him easily when your opponent hits the 110 mark.
This move can hit through the platforms of every stage currently deemed legal which is AWESOME. You can stand below the platform and hit people standing on it (and if you hit someone like this you are guaranteed to hit with the sweetspot).
You should always use this to punish frame traps out of dodges or aerials. It’s awesome to bait an air dodge from your opponent (or punisheable aerial) just so they eat an Up-Smash in the face. Normally I always punish with Up-Smashes until the opponent is around 70% at which point I switch to punishing with Forward-Smashes or Up-Tilts to Up-Airs (which link at that %) to freshen up my Up-Smash.
Specials:
Down-Special:
Just like everyone, I saw/read this special and thought: It’s going to be really bad. Then I learned it was Greninja’s strongest move and thought it might be decent. Then I saw the move in actual gameplay and noticed just how much it lagged and thought: “Wow, it really is crap!” And then I learned you could control it appearing in one of 8 different locations and moving in one of 8 different directions for a total of 64 possibilities out of this move and thought “It might have potential”. But now that I’ve had some experience with Greninja I can truthfully say, this special will never hit any decent opponent.
First, this is the second hardest if not hardest counter to time in the game. The counter window is extremely short. Once you are hit Greninja sort of strikes a post before disappearing which queues your opponent as to what’s about to happen. As if that wasn’t enough Greninja lasts about half a second before reappearing and attacking the opponent. The problem with all of this is that even after laggy moves such as a F-Smash your opponent still has very ample time to act. Some people theorize (like I did before) that the ability to appear from one of 8 positions and move in one of 8 directions would help as your opponent would have to “guess” what you’re about to do, but the problem is that just by shielding your opponent beats any of the 64 options.
No matter how laggy the move is your opponent still has enough time to shield before the counter hits him which makes this. The counter itself spaces you enough so that you won’t get punished afterwards (unless your opponent power shields or has some extremely fast attack with long range) but any decent opponent will learn to just shield your counter by reaction and basically render the move useless in terms of countering.
In the air counter is actually more powerful, as your opponent will have to time his air dodge (or an attack) in order to stop the counter, so if your opponent doesn’t know Greninja very well he might not be able to time the dodge correctly. (A decent opponent will learn the timing quickly though so it will go back to being useless).
There is a second use though for counter. One that isn’t very obvious and that’s movement. Say an opponent is below you and he has great aerial options to attack you from below, leaving nothing for you to do. You can counter his attack, appear below him and counter downwards to instantly land on the stage. If you’re recovering and your opponent’s character is very adept at gimping, or say you are recovering from under the stage and he tries to hit you from above, you can counter, appear above him (or below if you want to try and hit him) and counter upwards towards the ledge.
Basically with this ability you can help your recovery or “evade” inconvenient situations when your opponent has you in an unfavorable position. It’s still a very hard counter to land and it’s extremely risky to do this and hope for your opponent to hit you, so just do it if you know you can counter a hit and that it can help you in some way to recover/evade.
Custom Specials Opinion:
Out of his 3 counters, I think the standard is the worse. It’s already too slow to punish anything so making it slower is no problem.
The strong counter takes away a little over half of the opponent’s shield. It’s also Greninja’s strongest kill move. It’s still impossible to land on an opponent who is decent at the game. It can be used on an opponent who has been abusing his shield, or you can go full pressure on your opponent after he shields one of these counters as his shield will be so low you will either hit him through it or break it.
Explosion is probably his best special out of the 3. I haven’t tested this one at all but its the fastest one and it doesn’t require you to counter. As I said I haven’t tested this one but I think you can use it as a “slow spot dodge that can kill”.
Neutral Special:
Greninja’s neutral special is like having many neutral specials in one. The shuriken has a property that the more you charge it, the less it travels and the slower it travels too.
A great majority of the time you will just be using uncharged shurikens. These little beasts come out really fast, don’t have that much lag and travel very, very fast. They are basically like Falco’s laser.
Greninja’s full charge shuriken becomes a 5 hit multi-hit move that can KO. It’s rather hard to aim, specially when in the air since Greninja sort of “hops” slightly when he throws it. If you can get an opponent offstage with one of these it’s almost a guaranteed kill (specially if they already used their 2nd jump).
Mid charge shurikens don’t seem to have different properties than the uncharged one. You are basically trading an small increase in damage for a slower moving projectile with a shorter reach (and a charging time). It isn’t worth it to charge a shuriken half way to be honest unless you are just charging it in order to “time/aim it”.
Uncharged shurikens can deal with most projectile spammers, they clash with most of the projectiles in the game (and can even stop Luma midtrack and return Gordos to Dedede). Because of their speed they will normally beat any other projectile spammer like Link or Robin by just clashing with their projectiles and throwing the next one faster than the opponent. The fully charged shuriken seems to go through (and destroy) almost any “non-charged” projectile.
Uncharged projectiles will allow you to keep distance from your opponent and even force him to approach. Because shurikens are so fast it is really hard to punish you out of them unless you just spam them all over. At times you can just use this to keep pressure on your opponent and not allow him any breathing room, creating an unsafe environment for your opponent and throwing off his game. Never underestimate the psyche of your opponent and just how much "breaking his rhythm" can hurt his overall game.
The best use for water shuriken is to just use uncharged ones like you would Falco’s laser. Try not to become too spammable or predictable as they will get you punished. But you can slide 3-6% every now and then and completely throw off your opponent's pacing (this is really important, in games like this pacing means everything).
You can also force characters to approach you with intelligent use of these guys. In Smash 4 almost all characters have ways to deal with projectiles like this one but here is where being smart plays off. If you start using these you know your opponent will want to use one of these options to get through your projectile. Now their options to approach you are severely limited to one of these options, and as long as you don’t get yourself trapped in lag you can predict accordingly which option he will use and punish accordingly!
Custom Specials Opinion:
I think the standard or the 3rd option are the best.
Using the 2nd custom ability takes away all options to use the shuriken as a laser/projectile. Sure that option can be used to pressure shields and overall be more aggressive (plus you can sort of use it as an edge-guard) but I don’t think the added ability to create pressure is worth losing one of the best projectiles in Smash 4 (which is Greninja’s only projectile too).
The third option seems pretty solid. I haven’t tested it yet but it looks like it might be very good. Basically it takes away the option to “full charge your shuriken” but it gives your mid charge shurikens a new property. They now knock the opponent in your direction. This allows you to try and link your shurikens into other attacks. This definitely requires more testing for me to give my own input.
Up-Special:
Greninja’s Up-Special is soooo good. It’s a Pikachu Up-Special only, much, much better. It has at the very least 16 directions (might have more), it can be redirected in the middle (to a maximum of 2 directions). It has awesome range and it’s pretty fast. Everything you want from a recovery. The biggest problem with this recovery is that it doesn’t have a hitbox in the front (top). In the back the move deals 2% per pump of water (with a max of 4 pumps of waters). Here’s the kicker, the pumps don’t have a hitbox (hurtbox) they have windboxes. This means that you can push your opponent without dealing any hitstun or cancelling any of their actions. This leads into many, many possibilities. We will discuss most of these possibilities in the Advance Technique section further on. It is good to note that the push is actually huge, it pushe very, very far away. (And pushes further the more pumps hit your opponent).
Custom Specials Opinion:
His “huge single pump” custom is probably going to be worthless since it completely takes away the option to perform the advance technique we will discuss later, basically killing a huge number of options for Greninja. It also takes away your option to direction your Up-B which means your opponent will always know exactly how you're recovering, allowing him to gimp you very easily. It also makes Greninja’s Up-B a hurtbox instead of a hitbox. There might be some use to this (it might spike or something), but I haven’t tested it yet so I can’t really comment on it that much.
His other special I know literally nothing about. I know its slower but more powerful (more range). It’s usefulness will 100% depend on whether it changes the windbox for a hurtbox. If it does then it will also take away your new advance technique and it’s probably not worth to take. Once I can test it I will talk about it.
Side-Special:
I’ve read many controversies on this move, let me go out and say this move is actually very awesome. First I think this is the move that gives Greninja his “personality” in this game. Apart from that the move is Greninja’s 4th (or maybe 3rd, haven’t tested vs F-Air) best kill move in the game (well 5th/4th if you count counter, but you will never be able to land counter on decent opponents). At first it might seem hard to land, but truthfully it isn’t in a real match. The think about this move is that it can’t just be spammed or used “randomly”, it’s supposed to be used with reads.
Now I’ve gotten the usual response “if you can read your opponent, why not punish with something else that’s better?” Well that’s because this move has specific properties that allow you to punish much easier than with other moves. I’ve been able to counter many approaches by just using Side-Special at the right time appearing behind them. You can catch opponents who aren’t expecting it. When you are off stage, your opponent will have no idea whether you are charging this ability or not, you can use this to punish an opponent who tries to edge guard or to guarantee a kill on someone who is returning to the stage. The important part is not to spam this move or your opponent will be expecting it, it’s all about him NOT expecting it.
Using this ability may catch an opponent trying to edgeguard you completely unaware, but most importantly you can land very early kills by using this ability aggressively outside of the stage on a returning opponent. Something Greninja definitely needs.
You can use this ability to space!!!!! The kick Greninja does after he appears has more range than ALL of his moves. If for example a Marth misses an F-Smash on you, you might not have enough time to move forward and then forward smash him (since you aren’t in range), but you are in range to just press side-B (don’t charge at all), it will hit him.
You can also use this ability to catch projectiles spammers who aren’t expecting it. I’ve gone through a Pit spamming arrows, a Link spamming boomerangs + arrows, etc with this ability and instantly punished them. This ability is also the bane of people with “charged” projectiles. When Rosalina starts charging Luma you can instantly charge side-B until the shadow is next to her and then as soon as she releases Luma you release side-B. You will not only dodge the Luma heading straight at you but you will also instantly punish her. If she doesn’t want to release Luma then it’s perfectly fine, just release Shadow Sneak once the shadow reaches behind her, instant punish :D.
Another use for Shadow Sneak is for “trick approaches”. You can do things such as pivot dancing into Shadow Sneak. Seemingly fleeing from your opponent and turning into Shadow Sneak. Or my personal favorite just running towards your opponent into Shadow Sneak right when you’re about to reach him (and finishing behind them). Normally opponents expect you to either dash attack or try and grab them from a run. As such most of the time they will react with either an attack, a shield->drop or a spot dodge, all of which lose to Shadow Sneak (because of the small delay). Even if your opponent notices quickly enough and doesn’t drop shield or reacts fast enough before the move hits him, there aren’t many options to punish you out of this that fast. Unless your opponent outright expects you to do this he isn’t going to get a very good punish out of it, while you just might get a good hit. As always it is essential that you don’t just spam this freely or use it too much as it will become too predictable and then you will start getting hard punished. If anything, in a regular 3 stock match, I am able to get about a max of 2 or 3 of this type of Shadow Sneak (“trick approaches” Shadow Sneak) .
Shadow Sneak also has a unique property, it cancels the lag off all of Greninja’s aerials. As soon as Greninja touches the ground he can start a Shadow Sneak no matter what his lag state is. If you are landing from one of Greninja’s 2 laggy aerials (Down-Air or Forward-Air) you can instantly Side-B to cover yourself and hit an opponent that was really close by. Be wary though, performing Side-B will put you in just as much if not more lag than the aerial so don’t just use this randomly when you land on the floor. Only use it if you know that cutting your lag for this attack will probably catch your opponent unaware.
IMPORTANT NOTE: There are certain stages that have NO shadows. This makes it impossible for the opponent to know if Greninja is charging Shadow Sneak or not. These stages allow for a much more lenient use of this ability as you can use it almost at any time without being noticed. All of these stages are NOT legal unfortunately, but you can choose their FD variations in order to get this advantage.
Confirmed stages to not have shadows: Pictochat 2, NES Stage, Gameboy Stage, PacMaze
Untested stages which might not have shadows: Flatzone 2, Golden Plains
Custom Specials Opinion:
I am very undecided with the Side-B’s customizations.
There is one which allows Side-B to so fast that it basically loses all of its cons, but it also loses the ability to aim it and it also loses almost all of its kill potential. It goes from being a “tricky” catch your opponent unaware move to be a very reliable punish move that can probably be spammed throughout the match for good damage. This customization also becomes a huge hard counter against characters who like to spam projectiles for the reasons stated above. Having this customization though will make your use of this ability much more predictable too as people will know the exact range and will know the exact uses you have for it. Most people will be expecting it much more since it’s a reliable move you can actually use and as such they will be more prepared to block it/punish it.
The other custom makes Greninja unable to run while charging it, thus making it obvious that he is charging it (while on the ground). The shadow can move further from Greninja though and Greninja will also be able to fall while performing the ability which actually helps surprise opponents MUCH more (but doesn’t help as much with recovery). The move itself also becomes slower with Greninja taking more time to disappear and reappear. The biggest problem with this custom is that it takes away some of the options that the standard side-B allows just because of how slow it is. Things like countering missile spammers will become a much harder deed for Greninja as it will be much more obvious that he is charging his Side-Special. So what does this custom have to make up for it? It becomes Greninja’s strongest kill move by FAR. It kills about 20% earlier than Up-Smash.
Honestly I really need to test all side-specials to see which one fits my playstyle better, but if there is a way I can fit customization 3 in there I probably will since it provides Greninja with a much needed kill move.
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[collapse=Section IV: Advanced Techniques]
This section will deal with some of the more “advanced” techniques that Greninja players will need to know and master in order to reach a higher level of play with the ninja frog.
I-) Multi-Hit Spike:
A multi-hit spike is a new technique that allows any multi-hit ability that hits more than 3 times to spike an enemy when certain conditions are met.
First: Why is this useful to Greninja?
Well Greninja’s Up-Air is a multi-hit ability that hits more than 3 times. This means that Greninja can use his Up-Air and transform it into a spike if he uses the move correctly! This can lead to high damage combos at low % and to kill combos at high %, it can also be used offstage to spike the enemy!
How does this technique work?
In Smash 4 multi-hit moves (that hit more than 3 times) have a property where all of the “small” hits change the opponents direction and speed to a copy of yours. What this means is that if you’re going upwards at a 45 degree angle when one of the small hits lands on an opponent then they will also start going upwards at a 45 degree angle. If on the other hand you are falling straight down at fast fall speeds when you hit your opponent then so too will your opponent start falling directly downwards (while in hitstun!).
One very important thing to keep in mind is that the last hit of the move will pop your opponent upwards, so in order for this move to spike you must either:
1-) Cancel the move by landing before the last hit comes out
2-) Hit your opponent in such a way that he leaves the hitbox before the last hit comes out.
How to perform this technique:
Right now these seem to be the rules for this technique to work:
1. In Smash 4 when you perform an aerial you are taken OUT of fast fall. As such you must fast fall AFTER performing the aerial.
2. You must be fast falling before hitting the opponent with the move.
3-) You must hit your opponent with a tip of the hitbox, in such a way that as soon as you hit him your opponent will immediately leave the hitbox OR you must auto cancel the move before the final hit comes out.
So as a rule you must fast fall after performing the aerial but before hitting your opponent on the very edge of the hitbox. This just means that you must time the attack so that it comes out right before your opponent "falls into" the hitbox so that you have enough time to input the fast fall before the aerial hits him (in such a way that he will remain outside the hitbox once the first hit lands). All of this assuming your opponent is on top of you.
If you don't time it correctly you will either completely miss the attack, you might not be able to fast fall the Up-Air or your opponent will simply eat the whole move and the last hit will pop him upwards (If you don't fast fall early enough and you hit the opponent then the Up-Air will make you hover until it ends).
An easier way to perform this technique is also to just activate the attack while slightly above your opponent, this will allow you to fall on him once you start the fast fall and will also assure that you hit him with the very tip of the hitbox thus assuring the spike.
Apart from the obvious spiking offstage properties, this technique can definitely lead into combos on stage too as Greninja’s up-air completely auto-cancels on landing. When you use this technique on stage it basically acts exactly as a spike with the following properties:
1-) Your opponent will either stick to the ground while crouching in a small amount of hit lag. (low %)
2-) Or he will bounce upwards (This can be teched)
You can use this technique to get 100% assured combos as long as:
1-) Your opponent is at low enough % where he doesn’t bounce
OR
2-) Your opponent doesn't tech and doesn't bounce too high (this is dependent on his weight and what % he is at)
Note: Even if your opponent techs the bounce you then get the opportunity to tech chase into a punish which is still very nice.
Cool Facts: At low %s you can use this technique to get some sick combos on stage. I've personally done Up-Air Fast Falled Grab into Up Throw into another Up Air Fast Falled Up-Tilt into a Forward Air (This wasn't exactly a "true" combo because Up-Tilt to Forward Air isn't a real combo).
Also at high %s if your opponent doesn't tech the bounce (and has a relatively heavy character) this can lead into kill combos. I also personally killed a Bowser Jr at 100-110% by doing a Up-Air Fast Falled Up-Smash (he bounced right into the top of my Up-Smash).
Another property is that, as we've already seen, on grounded opponents when the bounce is too small if your opponent doesn't tech the bounce then you can get a free lock combo on them (refer to the Metaknight video). Basically leading into 2 tilts + a strong hit of your choice on the reset.
I am sure there are many other creative ways to use this technique. Hope to see some more in the future.
II-) Pump Pushing (naming pending):
One of Greninja’s main techniques is the act of using his Up-B (Hydro Pump) in order to push opponents away in many different situations.
This technique can be used to space, to avoid edge guards, to edge guard yourself, to gimp opponents, as a punish to certain moves and even as a kill move itself!
How does this technique work and how do I perform it?
Basically you aim the water of your Up-B towards your opponent. The more diagonal the water hits your opponent, the more you push him upwards. The closer you are to your opponent when the water hits him the farther it pushes him away (vertically).
It’s as simple as that.
What are some of its uses?
Characters who have horrible aerial momentum can be pushed away from the ledge by your Up-B and they won’t be able to make it back to the edge. This is especially powerful against characters that have horrible recoveries, such as Little Mac or Link, one push of your Up-B at any % and they are dead. Remember that your Up-B will always push upwards and away but you can try and control just how much it pushes vertically and how much it pushes horizontally.
In order to push the least amount vertically then try to be as far away from your opponent as possible as you hit him with the tip of the water, if you want to push him the most possible vertically then try to initiate the Up-B while being right next to him. As for horizontal, I’ve noticed that the more angled your Up-B is, the more it pushes the opponent upwards. Also if your opponent is below or above you when the water hits it seems to register as an angled hit and he gets pushed further upwards like an angled hit. If you want to try and minimize the horizontal push then you need to be perfectly parallel to your opponent as you perform the move (Note that it will still push him slightly upwards, but you will see a very defined difference between angled and straight Pump Pushing).
Get creative with this technique!
You can start getting crazy edgeguards like raising an opponent that was going to land on the edge so that he lands on stage and then hitting him with a smash in the face. Pushing players like Ness out of their Up-B trajectory! Making weird combos with more Pump Pushes to push your opponent even farther away from the edge or upwards, etc.
When coming back on stage, you can try to push your opponent away with the Up-B before landing. There are several ways to achieve the water pushing your opponent before you land on stage such as grabbing the edge and then Up-Bing through your opponent (which will push him off the stage), or Up-Bing away from the stage to push them and then instantly coming back and landing while they’re far away, etc.
Your opponent doesn't always have to be offstage for a kill!
You can get early kills on people with “momentum” aerials or specials. Whenever an opponent uses a momentum aerial or special you can get a free kill by Up-Bing them off from the stage, the water will make them “hover” while they’re being pushed but as soon as the water stops coming they will drop like a rock. You can get kills on Yoshi’s down-B, Bowser’s Down-B, Ike’s Up-B, Dedede’s Up-B, Kirby’s Up-B, etc, etc. (I personally killed a Bowser who used down-B on me at the very center of FD, I pushed him all the way out of the stage and he fell to his doom).
You can space people by hitting them with this move in the face while grounded. There is not much use as this move only does 2% damage point blank but if you ever want to use it as a free 2% and a “get away from me” move then you can do so very easily. Just aim the Pump Push diagonally upwards while grounded and you will push your opponent away while not moving yourself. You can use this to knock people offstage too very easily.
This move can actually kill from the top!
If you hit your opponent with a diagonal angled Pump Push while he is moving upwards (jumping or using Up-B) from the ledge he will shoot to the edge of the bubble area (Omega Stages). If you manage to do this while slightly above the stage it will put your opponent at the very ceiling (kill range). If you manage to do this at around Greninja’s full jump height then this move can actually kill your opponent from the top. I’ve been able to kill 2ce with it. The first time it was a Robin who double jumped my up-throw and I Pump Pushed him upwards and got a Star KO. The second was a Robin too who ledge jumped (pressed jumped while grabbing the ledge) I Pump Pushed him from underneath and he has used his Up-B right as I Pump Pushed him (he was trying to spike me), my Pump Push placed him right at the very edge of the ceiling and his 2nd Up-B made him blow up on the ceiling.
This technique is the ultimate punish!
You broke your opponents shield? Just Pump Push them offstage for a free kill. Jigglypuff failed to rest you? Pump Push her off the stage and teach her why she should never try to rest a Greninja ever again! Your opponent Up-Bed above the stage? Push him off the stage, as long as his character has bad aerial mobility then he shouldn't be able to make it back to the stage.
Try to get really used to this technique. Practice, practice, practice. It is thoroughly needed that you understand when and how to use this as this is one of Greninja’s greatest tools.
Perfect Shadow Sneaking:
What is this and why is this here?
One of the major concerns about shadow sneak that I’ve seen is “when and how would I be able to use this?” Many people seem to believe that shadow sneak has no use in the meta except for “surprising opponents who don’t look at the ground”. While “Perfect Shadow Sneaking” is not really a “new” or “hidden” technique, I myself view it as an “advanced” use of the attack that not everyone will be using it as.
So what do I mean by “Perfect” SS?
I refer to “Perfect” SS to using SS as a pre-emptive counter or punish. Basically you have to get an easy read on your opponent and counter it with an SS.
Wait, if I can get a read on my opponent then why not counter with a much better move like a smash or a combo?
That depends on how good your read is. See being able to counter with a smash or sometimes a combo probably means you were able to bait something rather obvious or extremely laggy out of your opponent. Being able to read that your opponent is going to perform a laggy move requires much more understanding of his playstyle than what a “Perfect” SS would. Why is that you ask? Well because a Perfect SS counters a great plethora of moves, actually it counters most of them.
A Perfect SS is the act of baiting any move out of your opponent while having Shadow Sneak active or being close enough to perform it instantly. In this scenario you don’t need to “read” your opponent perfectly, you just need to know the fact that he is going to attack with something and space any and all of his moves out, your shadow sneak will have higher range.
Perfect SS goes through projectiles too, as you can teleport through the projectile and still hit your opponent. If your opponent is “holding” a projectile and doesn’t release it then you can teleport behind him. If he does release it then you can release shadow sneak as soon as he releases the projectile and it’s a free punish.
Now, Raykz… This is easier said than done. How exactly are you going to bait a move as you are already charging your Shadow Sneak? Your opponent will see the shadow and just stand until you release it and then shield it.
This is where the “advanced” part comes in. This isn’t a technique to be used randomly. You aren’t supposed to be charging it so early that your opponent realizes that you’re charging it. Basically you are required to know when you have successfully baited an attack before you see the animation come out. You must be aware your opponent is attacking (or going to attack) as soon as he does it and charge your SS as his hitbox is coming out, releasing SS as soon as his hitbox is about to expire for a free hit.
Say you are fighting a Marth and you bait an F-Smash out of him. Normally you would have to wait for the F-Smash to come out, finish and then run in with a move of your own. Depending on the spacing between you and Marth you might not even be able to get a punish. By Perfect SSing you basically charge an SS as soon as you know he just performed (or is about to perform an F-Smash) by the time the F-Smash finishes your shadow will already be in place for you to punish out of it, no matter what the spacing is.
For projectiles users it depends on how laggy the projectile is, but sometimes its even much easier. You can start charging the shadow as soon as you know he just used the projectile and let go as soon as the projectile passes the shadow’s location.
Say a Rosalina starts charging Luma Shot. As soon as you see the starting frames of her charge then you start charging SS yourself. If she releases Luma then you also release SS, dodging Luma and hitting Rosalina for free. If she doesn’t release Luma (waiting for SS to activate or something) then just wait until the shadow is behind her and then teleport to punish her. (If you do it while it’s in front she will probably just release Luma Shot and hit you with it when you reappear).
One key thing to take into consideration is that SS has HUGE range. It’s something most Greninja’s still don’t realize. You can place the shadow about a full shadow and a half away from your opponent and the move will still hit on appearance. The range from where the “shadow circle” is and where the move can hit at max range is actually longer than Marth’s F-Smash (tested by myself). So you don’t need to move the shadow all the way to your opponent, you just need to move it about 1 Marth F-Smash away from your opponent.
Taking the speedy custom of SS makes using Perfect SSing very, very simple. It will allow you to counter projectile spammers without any kind of thought or effort. But it also will deal less damage and it will stop being a kill move and it won’t have enough knockback to set up for edgeguards at low %s. So if you want to be able to just use Perfect SSes here and there to get some free damage and don’t care about killing your opponent or setting up edge guards then by all means use that custom.
Wall clinging:
Unlike Brawl in this game you can wall cling as many times as you want (I have personally clinged 6 times) but every time you wall cling the time is cut by about half. The first wall cling lasts an exuberant amount of time, like seriously it's ridiculous. By the time you wall cling the 5th time you must press jump immediately in order to actually get something out of it. I was able to get a jump out of the 6th just because of how little it lasted (even though I was spamming jump as I grabbed the ledge).
From a wall cling you can either jump backwards, jump upwards or simply drop. To jump backwards simply press back, to drop simply press down. You would assume that to jump you have to press up and yes, you do. But I have tap jump off so sometimes pressing "up" doesn't register as a jump from a wall cling. This is why I press the jump button instead. Also pressing the jump button allows you to jump "diagonally" (upwards and away or upwards and forward).
So if there is an infinite amount of wall cling and you can also jump upwards from a wall cling what's stopping you from just wall clinging infinitely? There's a 1 second recling timer which completely stops you from clinging back to the wall. In that 1 second you will drop more than the distance gained from the jump. Meaning that doing this will only make you drop further down little by little.
So why is wall cling useful?
Well it allows you to have an extra jump when recovering, which is very nice. It also helps make your recovery much less predictable as you could Up-B, instantly jump upwards from the wall or just stick to the wall.
Apart from recoveries there's also edgeguarding. Wall clinging allows to wait for your opponent at the perfect position and even being able to adapt to your opponents position (being able to jump backwards or upwards or just dropping) without even wasting your second jump. It will also give you a bigger safety net in case you want to follow your opponent far away from the screen.
Greninja has a unique property!
When Greninja is grabbing the edge of a "walled" Omega the game counts him as being in a "wall cling" for some reason and as such he is able to do his "free" jumps from the edge. This allows you to either jump high into the air while still retaining your second jump or jump backwards and enter the stage with an instant back-air!
Other wall clinger can sort of do this with a small trick (Doing a hadouken input from the edge towards the stage will allow your wall clinger character to drop the ledge and then immediately wall cling right underneath it, you can then proceed to do exactly what was described above) but Greninja can do this without needing to input any special tricks (Greninja cannot do the special input for this trick as the game will enforce the 1 second recling rule on Greninja thinking he was clinged already).
It's good to note this only happens on "walled Omegas" though and even on stages with walls like Yoshi's Island you will need to input the small trick in order to simulate this effect.
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[collapse=Extra Section: Videos]
Most of the videos showcase at least one of Greninja's techniques and they are interesting to watch if you want to know how to perform said techniques. As for skill level, take into account all of those replays are from friday/saturday night so I hadn't had much practice yet except for the 3 times I went to my friend's house. I have more replays from yesterday I will upload soon. I wasn't able to play on Sunday (except with some friends in which I normally pick other character's to learn them).
Currently today I feel I am much more skilled than I was 3-4 days ago (even though it sounds stupid it's about 3 times the gametime!). I have more replays from yesterday I will upload soon. I wasn't able to play on Sunday (except with some friends in which I normally pick other character's to learn them).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFtkd73NvNw&list=UUttG16jT_EvO9Z2LbBXvp_g
Me vs Sonic. There's a clear demonstration of Up-Air Spike into Up-Smash kill combo.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_PABv8AOWI&list=UUttG16jT_EvO9Z2LbBXvp_g
Me vs Yoshi. The video shows how kill any Yoshi that likes to spam Down-B.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqwIybufEA8&index=4&list=UUttG16jT_EvO9Z2LbBXvp_g
Me vs ZSS. I am able to hit her with both hits of Up-B and kill her through the horizontal blastzone with Up-B pretty good.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5Vw89gOyuY&index=5&list=UUttG16jT_EvO9Z2LbBXvp_g
Me vs Fox, nothing really special.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Qna0a7MP3s&index=6&list=UUttG16jT_EvO9Z2LbBXvp_g
Me vs Greninja. There's a pretty funny moment where I gimp his Up-B with my own.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fw3gS8if4VA&index=7&list=UUttG16jT_EvO9Z2LbBXvp_g
Me vs Pac-Man.
IMPORTANT. I am able to cancel his B-Air knockback and hitstun with a Shadow Sneak. I have tried to replicate this but have been unable to. But there is a way to sort of cancel knockback and hitstun with Shadow Sneak.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhgGqrjadf0&list=UUttG16jT_EvO9Z2LbBXvp_g&index=8
Me vs Little Mac. This video shows why it's important to remain unpredictable. I am able to tell that this Little Mac just spams air dodge all the time in the first 12 seconds of the match. I bait an airdodge out of him once I see him use his second jump and land a free F-Smash for a kill.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6uEjQR2FC-s&list=UUttG16jT_EvO9Z2LbBXvp_g&index=12
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1X_0lvAcPvI&list=UUttG16jT_EvO9Z2LbBXvp_g&index=10
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ul_R0os45jU&index=11&list=UUttG16jT_EvO9Z2LbBXvp_g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zn65W-N6_I&list=UUttG16jT_EvO9Z2LbBXvp_g&index=9
Me vs a Robin. All 4 games are against the same person. These videos showcase a small bit how after you can tell when someone is about to spam projectiles you can start punishing with Shadow Sneak pretty effectively.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhfHKNY8300&list=UUttG16jT_EvO9Z2LbBXvp_g&index=13
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nf9pgnOCh24&list=UUttG16jT_EvO9Z2LbBXvp_g&index=14
Me vs Link followed by another game of me vs Little Mac. (Different players).
A cookie cutter combo to kill any character with bad recovery (Link, Little Mac, etc) Is just Back-Throw then bait out their second jump and then just B-Air them. Use Up-B to gimp if needed but most of the time you won't even need that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjJ1aH4aXtk&index=15&list=UUttG16jT_EvO9Z2LbBXvp_g
Me vs Yoshi. This Yoshi has pretty good combos and approaches. Unfortunately he doesn't know how to adapt. I struggled a lot the first match (which is this one) to understand how to fight him but I quickly learned he liked to spam Down-B as soon as I threw him. I tried gimping him early but failed and once he was at high % I decided to purposely not punish his Down-B so that he wouldn't stop using it and I could get a very early kill on his second stock by gimping his Down-B.
We played around 5 games him as Yoshi (and about 5 more him as other characters earlier), I won all 5 and even 2 stocked him the last 2 matches because of his inability to adapt and change. Once I figured him out and what his patterns were I could counter him pretty easily.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yacm8H0n5v4&index=16&list=UUttG16jT_EvO9Z2LbBXvp_g
Me vs Peach. The Peach is pretty bad but the video showcases that Up-B can kill from the top.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBevmnU70_o&list=UUttG16jT_EvO9Z2LbBXvp_g&index=17
Me vs Bowser. Another person who I couldn't get the hang of fighting at the start. He liked to just spam Up-B and Down-Smash and I was still unaware of how fast and how long those 2 moves are. At the very end you can see Up-B screw his recovery and allow me to get a free kill. We played a second game in which I started to catch up to Bowser's Up-B and Down-Smash properties and punished him almost every time. He ragequit after I 2 stocked him the 2nd game.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCw2od8zCuM&index=18&list=UUttG16jT_EvO9Z2LbBXvp_g
Me vs Link. Just like last video, this one also shows how Up-B can set up your opponent to a situation where all he can do is fall on the edge/stage and you basically get a free kill. In this video you can also see instances of what I called in my thread as "Perfect Shadow Sneaking". I purposely use Shadow Sneak to avoid/dodge his attacks while punishing them instantly too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MkthJYOCaYI&index=19&list=UUttG16jT_EvO9Z2LbBXvp_g
Me vs Duck Hunt. This game had a lot of delay which didn't allow me to do anything right. You can see Up-B kill from the top though.
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Coming soon…..
Section 5: General Strategies, Tips and Tricks with Greninja
Section 6: General Matchup Information
Section 7: A-) Specific Matchup Info vs Little Mac
B-) Specific Matchup Info vs Robin
C-) Specific Matchup Info vs Rosalina
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