Greninja Custom Move Discussion

[Coffee™]

With the exploration of custom moves increasing I feel like it's time we had somewhere to discuss them a bit more in detail so here we go...

Everyone knows the default moves so I'm just gonna leave those out.


Neutral Specials

Stagnant Shuriken

1% per hit uncharged and can deal up to six hits(6).
2% per hit fully charged and can deal up to seven hits(14).

Stagnant Shuriken is alternate take on the default Water Shuriken that instead of traveling a set distance now hovers in place. The attack dishes out multiple hits as it spins in front of Greninja. If your opponent gets caught in or shielding this move it's a pretty free grab or attack.

Shifting Shuriken

3%-6%

The Shifting Shuriken has two variations. Uncharged the shuriken travels fairly slowly and doesn't go too far, but in return if it hits it pops the opponent up at an almost 90˚ angle. The fully charged shuriken travels roughly the same distance as the default shuriken albeit a bit slower. However, has an interesting property where it pulls opponents who get hit towards Greninja. Both shuriken can lead to true combos if followups are timed correctly.

Side Specials

Shadow Strike

15% Front Kick
17% Back Kick

Shadow Strike is a slower, significantly more powerful version of Shadow Sneak. However, there is more of a delay before disappearing which can leave Greninja vulnerable to counterattack before the counter executes, how ironic…

Shadow Dash

6% Front Kick
7% Back Kick

Shadow Dash instantly teleports Greninja a fixed distance before throwing out the attack. It's less versatile than the other variants as you can't specifically control where you appear but to compensate it's much faster than the other two. Has a bit more endlag than the default variant.

Up Specials

High-Capacity Pump

Slower variation of the default Hydro Pump. It’s a bit slower to activate and doesn’t travel as fast as his default but the move lasts longer and is easier to control. The water jets also have more range than the default pump and actually sends Greninja farther throughout the moves duration.

Single-Shot Pump

5%

Single-Shot pump forgoes the ability to change direction with Hydro Pump for a bit more speed and distance. It now also shoots Greninja straight up.

Down Specials

Exploding Attack

10%

This version of Substitute is no longer a counter, replacing it for an additional attack in which Greninja initially disappears for a brief moment then returns while creating a relatively powerful explosion.

Substitute Ambush

15%-18% depending on direction.

Slower variant of the default Substitute. The activation window seems to be longer than the default but in return Greninja now takes longer to reappear and attack making this move easier to dodge. The move does however have increased knockback and does a large amount of shield damage.

Optimal custom moves for each matchup:

Bowser
1111
3111
3112

Bowser Jr.
3311
3312
3111

Captain Falcon
1111
2111
3111

Charizard
3111
1111
3112

Dark Pit
1111
3111
1112

Diddy Kong
1112
3112
1111

Donkey Kong
1111
3111
1112

Dr. Mario
1111
1112
2111

Duck Hunt Dog
3311
3312
3111

Falco
1111
1112
2111

Fox
1111
1112
3111

Ganondorf
1111
3111
1112

Greninja
1111
1112
3111

Ike
1111
3111
1112

Jigglypuff
1112
1111
3111

King Dedede
1111
1112
3111

Kirby
1111
3111
1112

Link
3311
1311
3111

Little Mac
1111
3111
1112

Lucario
3111
1111
3112

Lucina
1112
1111
3112

Luigi
1111
3111
2111

Mario
1111
1112
2111

Marth
1112
1111
3112

Mega Man
3311
3311
3111

Meta Knight
1111
2111
1112

Mr. Game and Watch
1111
1112
3111

Ness
1111
3111
1112

Olimar and Pikmin
3311
3311
3111

PacMan
1111
3111
1311

Palutena
1111
3111
1112

Peach
1111
1112
3111

Pikachu
1111
1112
3111

Pit
1111
3111
1112

R.O.B.
3111
3311
1111

Robin
1111
3111
1311

Rosalina
3111
3311
1111

Samus
3111
1111
3311

Sheik
1111
2111
1112

Shulk
1111
3111
1112

Sonic
3111
1111
3112

Toon Link
3111
3111
1111

Villager
1111
2111
1112

Wario
1111
3111
1112

Wii Fit Trainer
1111
3111
1112

Yoshi
1111
3111
1112

Zelda
1111
1112
2111

Zero Suit Samus
1111
3111
1112

Discuss!

 

[Coffee™]

reserved in case.

 

[joaoTforce]

I'm trying to find uses for exploding attack... I guess it could be good for edge guarding. Also is it the same to GIMP with high capacity pump as it is to gimp with the standard one? Because high capacity travels farther than the standard one, It can save your life from a dair offstage even if you don't double jump. I'm not too interested in the side specials. and I would definitely get the shifting shuriken, the combos are way too good. Great thread BTW

 

[Jaguar360]

Exploding Attack is kind of nice for edgeguarding and can kind of be used as a baiting attack. Kind of hard to explain. I need to spend more time with it.

Shifting Shuriken is probably Greninja's most useful custom since it can easily lead into U-smash and other things while having uses as a regular projectile (though it is inferior to Water Shuriken for that purpose).

The Shadow Sneak customs are okay, though I feel that Shadow Sneak is better than both. It has good power while you're able to control the distance you go.

Default Hydro Pump is way more useful than the others imo. It can be used onstage to great effect and is controllable and quick.

 

[Funkermonster]

Not seeing a lot of use for the Hydro Pump customs honestly, at all. And I know Stagnant Shuriken is the least popular Shruiken, but I'm willing to try it next time I meet a friend online and see what I can do with it.

Shadow Dash seems like it would be good for punishing landings, but I'm not sure...

 

[Talazala]

Exploding attack looks good, it seems like a manual counter to me and I'd rather have that than a counter that might just not hit.
I also like shadow dash, never liked shadow sneak because I feel like I'm praying the other person doesn't notice. I actually... don't have any custom moves unlocked. How is the knockback on shadow dash?

 

[Coffee™]

and I would definitely get the shifting shuriken, the combos are way too good.

Everyone seems to love Shifting Shuriken, but idk. I generally feel like it's too slow to really be a good pressuring tool.

As far as the Hydro Pump customs go, does anyone know if High-Capacity Pump has a larger windbox or if single-pump has one at all? Those are the only 2 I haven't unlocked yet...lol

 

[FullMoon]

Everyone seems to love Shifting Shuriken, but idk. I generally feel like it's too slow to really be a good pressuring tool.

Shifting Shuriken shines in certain MUs due to having the same transcedent priority as fully charged Water Shuriken. Against Rosalina it can hit through Luma though Down-B is still an issue. Against Sonic it hits him out of Spin Dash right into a combo. It also hits through R.O.B's gyro and Bowser Jr's Mechakoopas. So it gives us a very scary projectile that can't be stopped by anything other than a move made especifically to cancel projectiles, if anything else it makes the opponent play a bit more carefully around Greninja which we could use to our advantage.

 

[Coffee™]

Shifting Shuriken shines in certain MUs due to having the same transcedent priority as fully charged Water Shuriken. Against Rosalina it can hit through Luma though Down-B is still an issue. Against Sonic it hits him out of Spin Dash right into a combo. It also hits through R.O.B's gyro and Bowser Jr's Mechakoopas. So it gives us a very scary projectile that can't be stopped by anything other than a move made especifically to cancel projectiles, if anything else it makes the opponent play a bit more carefully around Greninja which we could use to our advantage.

Yea it's useful for sure but it's slower speed can be an annoying handicap as well. It's also generally less flexible than the default. Idk how I feel about it yet.

On another note, there hasn't been much talk about Stagnant Shuriken. I actually like this one quite a bit as it is pretty much a big "NO" to an opponent trying to get in and makes greninja's ledge traps quite silly. However, the fact that it basically forces Greninja to approach a lot more is a pain.

 

[Gunla]

I happen to pretty much only use Exploding Attack, if ever. Shifting is alright, and so is Shadow Dash.

Otherwise, I happen to go defaults due to preferences. Added to directory.

 

[David Galanos]

I think for Greninja customs are mainly personal preference nothing is really better than his regular move set. Shifting shuriken is pretty good but has it's disadvantages, and isn't as good now with added lag to shurikens

 

[Coffee™]

Posting these as my initial impressions on Greninja's optimal custom setups for each matchup. I'm listing top 3 sets since this guy isn't really going to have too much variation between them.

I plan to add some a small description for each one explaining why later but for now I'll just post it so you guys can discuss it.

Bowser
1111
3111
3112

Bowser Jr.
3311
3312
3111

Captain Falcon
1111
2111
3111

Charizard
3111
1111
3112

Dark Pit
1111
3111
1112

Diddy Kong
1112
3112
1111

Donkey Kong
1111
3111
1112

Dr. Mario
1111
1112
2111

Duck Hunt Dog
3311
3312
3111

Falco
1111
1112
2111

Fox
1111
1112
3111

Ganondorf
1111
3111
1112

Greninja
1111
1112
3111

Ike
1111
3111
1112

Jigglypuff
1112
1111
3111

King Dedede
1111
1112
3111

Kirby
1111
3111
1112

Link
3311
1311
3111

Little Mac
1111
3111
1112

Lucario
3111
1111
3112

Lucina
1112
1111
3112

Luigi
1111
3111
2111

Mario
1111
1112
2111

Marth
1112
1111
3112

Mega Man
3311
3311
3111

Meta Knight
1111
2111
1112

Mr. Game and Watch
1111
1112
3111

Ness
1111
3111
1112

Olimar and Pikmin
3311
3311
3111

PacMan
1111
3111
1311

Palutena
1111
3111
1112

Peach
1111
1112
3111

Pikachu
1111
1112
3111

Pit
1111
3111
1112

R.O.B.
3111
3311
1111

Robin
1111
3111
1311

Rosalina
3111
3311
1111

Samus
3111
1111
3311

Sheik
1111
2111
1112

Shulk
1111
3111
1112

Sonic
3111
1111
3112

Toon Link
3111
3111
1111

Villager
1111
2111
1112

Wario
1111
3111
1112

Wii Fit Trainer
1111
3111
1112

Yoshi
1111
3111
1112

Zelda
1111
1112
2111

Zero Suit Samus
1111
3111
1112

Will also add this to the OP.

 

[Coffee™]

Was gonna repost what I posted above. I never realized it was already posted. This thread just kinda fell into oblivion and there wasn't any discussion. Can we actually discuss the custom moves here so we don't clutter the social? Some of the above content needs updating anyway.

 

[Lemonade Candy]

^ What coffee said.

 

[FullMoon]

There's not really much discussion to be had when it comes to Greninja's customs other than which shuriken is best and really, I'm a big fan of Shifting Shuriken myself and I bring it to most MUs where a reflector isn't in play and I do pretty well with it.

 

[Coffee™]

There's not really much discussion to be had when it comes to Greninja's customs other than which shuriken is best and really, I'm a big fan of Shifting Shuriken myself and I bring it to most MUs where a reflector isn't in play and I do pretty well with it.

Each custom move should be tested and discussed as thoroughly as possible. That's the only way to find which intrinsic properties of each are actually beneficial to the character and in which ways. If you just look at them for just what you get at face value it's quite easy to overlook things.

Just for starters I know we definitely need more discussion on the uses of Stagnant and Exploding Attack. I'm also curious if there are any practical uses for his other Up B's.

 

[KERO]

I've personally been really interested in messing around with High-Capacity Pump lately. Yes, it's slower, but I feel it'd still be relatively hard to punish, and it'd allow use to go a ton deeper with edgeguards (you can essentially recover with it alone from anywhere offstage). On a side note, should I go ahead and copy-paste the custom stuff I posted in the social to here?

 

[Funkermonster]

Been thinking of taking out Substitute Ambush out for a test drive against opponents sometime when I get my game back. I know its even slower than default, but dad gum does this move do a lot of shield damage!

 

[KERO]

Alright, Coffee, I owe you an apology. I drastically underrated Stagnant. The amount of traps you can make against rush down characters and aerial characters is staggering. It can give Greninja a ton of stuff out of it as well, it's end lag isn't nearly as bad as I assumed, and I feel it's going to fill a lot of holes in the original shuriken chart I made (characters like Peach, MK, etc., were kind of just characters we shrugged off since neither Shifting nor regular really did much for them, but it seems that Stagnant was just the answer I was looking for).

 

[mimgrim]

I'll just post what I posted in the social thread and hope it generates some more discussion here.

I, personally, feel it is the default one being overrated, in its current iteration, and think it is more of a case of familiarity then anything else. I see default, at its core, as a long range harassment poking/zoning tool, however, with the end lag it has I don't see it as doing its job as effectively as it should be and doesn't really put enough pressure onto the opponent for what it is suppose to be, thus I think it only fits ok with Greninja's toolkit currently and why I find Shifting and Stagnant to compliment him better, if the end lag ever gets reverted you will see me change my tune but currently I think default is honestly overrated.

Whereas Shifting and Stagnate, while, like default, don't really apply that much pressure either, serve as a better use as trap moves, in different ways, with special properties to set them apart from Default more, and in the current iteration of Shuriken they fit his overall toolkit better as a result imo, and can confirm into stuff more reliably then default ever could (requires it to be fully charge, which should only, realistically speaking, only ever happen when the opponent is off stage).

But, again, I know I am def in the minority here.

 

[Coffee™]

Here's my reply from the Social as well.

I agree for the most part. Shifting is a better move in general for Greninja if you look strictly at the moves properties. However, it's additional end lag is what causes the move to overall be less efficient at it's ideal job in comparison to the default. Shifting wants to be used offensively but the lag on it just makes that not a great option the majority of the time.

 

[Lavani]

Didn't realize I never dropped any comments on it in here, but here's some thoughts I had on Single-Shot Pump (upB 3) back in February:

Playing around with UpB 3 more. My opinion of this move's only been improving. The downward reach on the projectile is absurd, and connecting it will gimp all but the best recoveries if they go low, especially if it hits them under the stage. I really like how quickly Greninja shoots upward when using it too. Still generally worse than the default HP I'm sure, but I feel like this could be a niche option worth considering.

Range demonstration:

doing stuff like this is just so good:

And honestly it doesn't need to stagespike to gimp/kill successfully, I was hitting Fox far enough away from the stage to prevent recovery quite easily with it.

Greninja also maintains his normal airspeed post-use, so his horizontal recovery isn't actually hurt much by taking it, though it does still make his recovery much more predictable.

 

[FullMoon]

Single-Shot Pump can have it's uses against characters that tend to recover low like Mario, Olimar, Shulk, but choosing to use it do bring a lot of risks. It's certainly a counterpick choice that would catch people offguard at least.

Stagnant Shuriken just looks very unreliable to me, how does it fare when the opponent actually makes use of DI? It really look super easy to escape even when fully charged.

 

[MadCanard]

What kind of true combos have y'all found with Shifting shuriken?

 

[Jaguar360]

What kind of true combos have y'all found with Shifting shuriken?

SS > U-smash is generally the best option, but it depends on the space between you and your opponent. Sometimes you're too far away and have to go for another Shifting Shuriken to bring them closer to you, or if you're too close you can try for a N-air.

 

[DrizzyDrew]

I find I only use his ninja star that brings in the opponent closer. The rest of his customs I dont find practical.

 

[MadCanard]

Greninja's combo game is strong and shifting shrunken opens up even more options but it hasn't been fully explored yet. Let's do something about that.

With your help I'd like to start compiling a list of true combos and interesting uses. This is a work in progress.

The distance and angle an opponent travels when hit with Shifting Shuriken is dependent on three things:
(1) Charged (CSS) or Uncharged (USS)
(2) Opponents percentage
(3) Your distance from opponent (this is a unique property with SS that makes it difficult to measure combo %)


SHIFTING SHURIKEN COMBOS

Spoiler: UNCHARGED SHIFTING SHURIKEN COMBOS

Uncharged Shifting Shuriken (USS) 3%
USS -> Uair: All % D=12%
USS -> Nair: All % D=14%
USS -> Fair: All % D=17%
USS -> Bair: All % D=12%
USS -> USmash (Fast fallers): Low % D=22%

Spoiler: CHARGED SHIFTING SHURIKEN COMBOS

Charged Shifting Shuriken (CSS) 3%
CSS -> Grab: Low-Mid % D=3% + Throw
CSS -> Utilt: Mid-High % D=7%
CSS -> USmash: Mid-High % D=14%-23%
CSS -> FSmash: Mid-High % D=17%

SHIFTING SHURIKEN PROPERTIES

Spoiler: UNCHARGED SHIFTING SHURIKEN PROPERTIES

- USS has normal priority - Meaning that it will cancel out and be cancelled out by most other projectiles. (Will have to test out every projectile)

Spoiler: CHARGED SHIFTING SHURIKEN PROPERTIES

- CSS has transcendant priority - Meaning that it will pass through and be passed through by all projectiles and objects. This includes things like Villager's tree, Luma, Link's arrow, etc.

- Certain physical objects will be effected when CSS passes through them. (Luma, Duck Hunt's Can, Diddy's Peanut, etc)

- There are a few things that can effect/block a CSS. Shields, Reflect moves (Fox, Falco, etc), Villager's Pocket, Toad, Toon Link's shield, and Link's shield when crouching.

SHIFTING SHURIKEN TECH

Spoiler: SHIFTING SHURIKEN STAGE SPIKE

- SS Stage Spike: Because CSS pulls the opponent towards you, if used while the opponent is hanging on the ledge it can stage spike them. Obviously the higher the percentage the better the results. Max CSS distance is also preferable since it sends them into the wall at a lower angle. USS just sends them up.

- This DOES NOT work on stages that you can pass through from underneath such as Delfino Plaza and Halbard.


The following character can be hit with CSS while hanging on the ledge:


The following characters can be hit with USS while hanging on the ledge:

(Wii Fit Trainer can be hit during the pull up animation of her ledge grab.)

FUN SHIFTING SHURIKEN STUFF

CSS Spike - http://gfycat.com/GreenYellowGermanpinscher


Special thanks to @MartinAW4 & @ Lavani & @aMSa

 

[WindHero]

Interesting. When I played around with SS a bit, I kinda wrote it off as inferior to regular Water Shuriken due to the lesser versatility, but I think I'll have to reexamine it. I wasn't aware the fact that one version pulled foes and the other pushes either. Still, it seems like a much more strategic option compared to an actual tool for racking up %s.

 

[Shack]

Has uses for some matchups where you wouldn't need the range/speed of un charged WS. I might play around with it later.

Quick question? Are customs legal in most/all tourneys yet?

 

[RKzero10]

To be honest, I really like shifting shuriken due to the combo game you have and I had a better time STAGE SPIKING with it just for style of course haha. But I do think that shifting shuriken is a pretty high potential tool since you can do a fully charged shifting shuriken and combo into many things like U-tilt into Spike U-air into your general footstool combos, or up-smash to easily get a stock since up-smash is by far the the best kill move. I can't wait too see more into it and get into the lab a bit more with the custom. But sadly it's really the only good custom for Greninja in my opinion, possibly some Down-B options for your meta but as a general good move for custom Neutral B.

 

[RKzero10]

Has uses for some matchups where you wouldn't need the range/speed of un charged WS. I might play around with it later.

Quick question? Are customs legal in most/all tourneys yet?

It really depends on TOs like Xanadu sometimes do customs but I think in the near future we might have most or an option to use customs. Not some mystical time lord to know this but it's worth a guess

 

[Funkermonster]

Pretty good stuff to know, didn't know about the stage spike and was unaware of some of those combos. Gonna try those out next time and spend more time with the move in the lab. I still prefer default shurikens (and default greninja in general) for most of my matchups though, more versatility and little less lag.

 

[WindHero]

I only secondary Greninja, but I did play around with his customs a bit.

Generally, I prefer Exploding Attack to the regular Substitute, since Sub is one of the least reliable counters in the game. I've had people shield or dodge my counters quite often... However, EA seems to function almost like Sheik's Up B, particularly in the strength department. But instead of moving, you just reappear. Can anyone confirm whether or not you can be hit while invisible?

Shadow Dash is interesting, but I found it hard to hit with it reliably. The extra endlag is kind of a bummer too, so whiffing is not an option. Still isn't as predictable as Shadow Sneak though, and I found SS kinda useful for guarding recoveries, more so than SD.

 

[iVoltage]

I take exploding sub in all mu's that don't have an exploitable projectle, but thats the only custom I really use. I like the versatility of the regular shurikens more than shifting, and the rest of the customs really server no real purpose at least in my opinion since the vanilla is just better or is more reliable. Talking about they hydro pump customs btw.