Grass Starter Pokémon: Completing the Starter Type Trinity?

[AncientTobacco]

So, basically this thread's purpose is to discuss the possibility of a grass starter Pokémon becoming playable in SSB4. The idea is that Squirtle and Ivysaur are cut and instead we have Greninja, who is a fully evolved water starter, and some (fully evolved) grass starter. This along with Charizard would complete the starter type trinity: grass, water, fire.

If Ivysaur is cut, then Smash will be lacking a grass/plant user, so this would make sense from a uniqueness aspect. The possibility of Gen 3 games being remade also bodes well for Gen 3 Pokémon, which could be Sceptile, the Gen 3 grass starter.

What do you guys think? Are Squirtle and Ivysaur cut and if so, will we see another grass Pokémon take Ivysaur's place?

 

[Sobreviviente]

There is already a thread about this.
My bet is the snake, smash needs more serpents

 

[False Sense]

So, basically this thread's purpose is to discuss the possibility of a grass starter Pokémon becoming playable in SSB4. The idea is that Squirtle and Ivysaur are cut and instead we have Greninja, who is a fully evolved water starter, and some (fully evolved) grass starter. This along with Charizard would complete the starter type trinity: grass, water, fire.

If Ivysaur is cut, then Smash will be lacking a grass/plant user, so this would make sense from a uniqueness aspect. The possibility of Gen 3 games being remade also bodes well for Gen 3 Pokémon, which could be Sceptile, the Gen 3 grass starter.

What do you guys think? Are Squirtle and Ivysaur cut and if so, will we see another grass Pokémon take Ivysaur's place?

I think Squirtle and Ivysaur are out. Without the Trainer, they just don't have much going for them to stand on their own, I think.

As for a new Grass starter, I don't think that's necessary. It makes sense from a completion standpoint, but I don't think any of the Grass starters take priority over other characters like Jigglypuff or Mewtwo. If we were to get a Grass starter, I'd say Sceptile would make the most sense. He seems to be the most popular, he'd naturally fit as a Smash fighter, and the potential for a gen 3 remake makes him a little more plausible. Still, I doubt that we'll see a Grass starter.

 

[BridgesWithTurtles]

I'd like this to happen, since I'm OCD about balance and dislike starter favoritism, but I doubt it will. I don't think any of the Grass starters are deserving (though neither is Greninja, in my opinion), but Sceptile seems to be the most popular aside from Venusaur, which is from the same generation as Charizard, and I don't see them excluding only Blastoise.

I don't like Sceptile though, and the Grass starters are so unique among themselves that I'd hate if they chose the most boring of them. I can't imagine Sceptile being much different than Greninja in terms of playstyle. Very fast, with great jumps and quick, slicing attacks. Been there, done that. I'd much rather have Torterra as a lumbering brute with terrible mobility but insane defensive capabilities, or Serperior, with its unique, serpentine body style. Meganium would also prove very unique, but unfortunately, it may be the least liked final staged starter of all time. All of these Pokémon are limited by the fact that they struggle with gameplay elements such as ladders and Gogoat. I can't even imagine how Torterra would use something like the Super Scope. I see Sceptile happening, if any, and in that case, I'd rather not have it happen at all. It's easily the one with the least amount of potential to be unique, Grass starters are some of the more unique starters on average. It'd be a shame to have yet another speedy, ninja-like Pokémon when we could have something so much more interesting.

 

[Deleted member]

A Grass starter for the sake of "completion" is a terrible idea. None of them have the staying power that Charizard had and Greninja is developing.

Aside from that, Charizard and Greninja themselves carry contrasting themes that only the two can carry.

 

[Cobalsh]

I think Chesnaught would've been cool, but that would be too much Sixth Gen. So if we do get one, I'm pulling for Serperior or Sceptile.

 

[FalKoopa]

With the Pokemon Trainer now gone, there isn't much reason to complete the trinity.

I still have a little faith in Ivysaur though.

 

[Glaciacott]

I'm partially hoping for this even if it means no Jiggly or Mewtwo, mostly because the Fire/Water/Grass trinity has always been so big for Pokemon.

However, the sad part comes from the fact no Grass starter has even had the impact that Charizard had, or the one Greninja is now claiming. I would argue Sceptile is one of the most popular ones, but the clear winner from that generation was Blaziken. Meanwhile, Torterra and Serperior were huge for their generations, but those two also happen to be the least popular generations, the ones most fans and genwunners want to forget, and they are also two pokemon that seem to have particular problems with playability due to their design. (Not to mention Snivy is a pokeball pokemon.)

If it happened, I think it should definitely be Sceptile due to overall agility, leaf blade being its iconic move that later on went on to become a well-liked physical Grass move, and the relative popularity of Grovyle and Treecko. Also, like Greninja, we're talking about the starter Ash had in that generation. Lastly, there is speculation that it will eventually also get its own mega evolution, probably a Grass/Dragon type given it has access to certain dragon moves and it's the one starter from that generation without a secondary typing.

 

[fogbadge]

I'm partially hoping for this even if it means no Jiggly or Mewtwo, mostly because the Fire/Water/Grass trinity has always been so big for Pokemon.

However, the sad part comes from the fact no Grass starter has even had the impact that Charizard had, or the one Greninja is now claiming. I would argue Sceptile is one of the most popular ones, but the clear winner from that generation was Blaziken. Meanwhile, Torterra and Serperior were huge for their generations, but those two also happen to be the least popular generations, the ones most fans and genwunners want to forget.

Are sure? Gen 5 seemed rather popular to me

Anyway we all know if there is another Pokemon then it's going to be jigglypuff

 

[Headcrab Jackalope]

As much as I love Sceptile, I'd prefer Serperior. Sceptile seems kinda similar to Greninja. Serperior is really the only one that could work out of the remaining ones. Plus, it has those small arms, so it would be able to grab on to stuff.

 

[Burigu]

As much as I love Sceptile, I'd prefer Serperior. Sceptile seems kinda similar to Greninja. Serperior is really the only one that could work out of the remaining ones. Plus, it has those small arms, so it would be able to grab on to stuff.

If Serperior grabs something it would be with it's tail, look at Pikachu he clearly has bigger hands yet he almost always carry them in the mouth that said I don't see a grass type appearing just for the sake of having every starter type

 

[Glaciacott]

As much as I love Sceptile, I'd prefer Serperior. Sceptile seems kinda similar to Greninja. Serperior is really the only one that could work out of the remaining ones. Plus, it has those small arms, so it would be able to grab on to stuff.

Serperior has no arms dude. I think you're thinking of Servine.

 

[Burigu]

Serperior has no arms dude. I think you're thinking of Servine.

Serperior has hands they are leafs at the sides look at his back sprite form BW I am not sure if that is the plural for leaf

 

[AncientTobacco]

Serperior could just use vines to grab stuff like Ivysaur did.

 

[Burigu]

Serperior could just use vines to grab stuff like Ivysaur did.

That's true but I think that grabing things with his tail is cooler for his serpent concept, open up the posibility to nice new moves yet Serperior will not be playable Snivy has been revealed as a pokeball pokemon so this whole grass starter idea is very unlikely and even more for Serperior

 

[stan423321]

Serperior could at once replace Ivysaur and Snake, right?

On a serious note, Serperior not being as anthropomorphic is precisely the reason for it being problematic to implement... and at the same time, appealing to me if implemented. Ridiculously appealing. Just the jumping potential, mmm. I guess I need to find some games with playable serpents to prove me wrong.

 

[Headcrab Jackalope]

Serperior has no arms dude. I think you're thinking of Servine.

Nope, like @ Burigu said, it has small arms near its back. You can even see them in the art. I don't think it would be too much of a *ahem* stretch to have it stretch its arms forward a bit. Or the tail could possibly work.

That being said, I don't really expect a grass-type to be added for completion, I just think it'd be cool.

 

[Starcutter]

Grovyle based off PMD2

That is all.

 

[Igneous42]

A Grass starter for the sake of "completion" is a terrible idea. None of them have the staying power that Charizard had and Greninja is developing.

Aside from that, Charizard and Greninja themselves carry contrasting themes that only the two can carry.

Honestly being in smash alone is going to greatly contribute to his staying power. That's not to say he wasn't developing staying power on his own, but Smash will just cement it further. I also agree, no need for a grass pokemon just for "completion" sake, but if they did choose one I'd prefer Sceptile.

 

[Wigglytuff ★]

The only grass starters I see as particularly possible are Bulbasaur (#001 in the national dex!) and Grovyle, which is is less clumsy than Sceptile, and has some prominence from the spinoffs.

Still, the likelihood of either is approaching zero.

 

[Deleted member]

Honestly being in smash alone is going to greatly contribute to his staying power. That's not to say he wasn't developing staying power on his own, but Smash will just cement it further. I also agree, no need for a grass pokemon just for "completion" sake, but if they did choose one I'd prefer Sceptile.

Add that to the fact in the anime, Ash has a Froakie, which will very likely be a Greninja and break the "Water type curse", and soon Greninja will be the next Charizard.

 

[Morbi]

Pokemon Trainer was cut for a reason; there is no logical evidence to support adding a grass-type Pokemon to complete some arbitrary trinity. Pokemon are selected based on their merits, Greninja was one of the most prominent 6th generation Pokemon.

 

[andimidna]

I'm expecting 6 Pokemon. But no grass starters.
It would be weird to have Greninja and Chesnaught, but no Delphox.
It would be weird to have Charizard and Venusaur, but no Blastoise.
I don't think it would be from Gen 1 or 6... even though I would love to have Bulbasaur playable.
And I don't see them adding another Pokemon from Gen 4.
I don't see why they'd pick one from Gen 2.
Grovyle and Servine seem like the best picks for grass. But my bet's on Mewtwo and Jigglyouff

 

[Reality_Ciak]

"Lucario joined the battle for the first time in Super Smash Bros. Brawl, which was released six years ago. The production staff of Brawl worked really hard to expand the character roster--without their efforts, Lucario probably never would have joined the battle." I don't quite understand this comment. It makes Lucario sound like an extra character, but then why did Mewtwo get cut? I expect 6, and between Lucario and Greninja, another charge B pokemon seems unlikely so unless they change up Mewto a bit to further distinguish him from those two. I desperately want him back and personally don't think they're too similar, but I feel alot if people would think they are. That being said, as unique and "important" Jigglypuff is to the Smash franchise, she isn't relevant in the least to the Pokemon franchise. So what she's a fairy now? She's not the poster child of the type. So what she was semi popular back when the anime featured her? Sing is her signature move and it's her worst move. Rest works completely wrong in Smash. She's misrepresentative. Meowth, Mewtwo, any starter, any legendary deserves a spot before her. But she's a running joke that they'll never let die. I think Sceptile, especially if a remake happens, could beat out either Mewtwo or Jiggs for a spot, and I'd prefer they finally cut Jiggs. Having two starter types without the third will feel incomplete, out of balance, and completely neglectful to those who prefer to chose grass starters. Not including one to replace Ivysaur would be a disservice.

Add that to the fact in the anime, Ash has a Froakie, which will very likely be a Greninja and break the "Water type curse", and soon Greninja will be the next Charizard.

I mean, Ash did have Treecko, Grovyle, Sceptile too...

 

[Burigu]

"Lucario joined the battle for the first time in Super Smash Bros. Brawl, which was released six years ago. The production staff of Brawl worked really hard to expand the character roster--without their efforts, Lucario probably never would have joined the battle." I don't quite understand this comment. It makes Lucario sound like an extra character, but then why did Mewtwo get cut? I expect 6, and between Lucario and Greninja, another charge B pokemon seems unlikely so unless they change up Mewto a bit to further distinguish him from those two. I desperately want him back and personally don't think they're too similar, but I feel alot if people would think they are. That being said, as unique and "important" Jigglypuff is to the Smash franchise, she isn't relevant in the least to the Pokemon franchise. So what she's a fairy now? She's not the poster child of the type. So what she was semi popular back when the anime featured her? Sing is her signature move and it's her worst move. Rest works completely wrong in Smash. She's misrepresentative. Meowth, Mewtwo, any starter, any legendary deserves a spot before her. But she's a running joke that they'll never let die. I think Sceptile, especially if a remake happens, could beat out either Mewtwo or Jiggs for a spot, and I'd prefer they finally cut Jiggs. Having two starter types without the third will feel incomplete, out of balance, and completely neglectful to those who prefer to chose grass starters. Not including one to replace Ivysaur would be a disservice.



I mean, Ash did have Treecko, Grovyle, Sceptile too...

You are using a "Pokemon mentality" when talking about imcomplete and out of balance, this is not a pokemon game as stated many times before Charizard is extremely popular from old fan veterans from Red and Blue and Greninja is super popular right now, I don't now if you play regulary pokemon but almost every 3 battles you will see a Greninja, the fact that he is liked and competitively viable give him the tools to really shine, somepeople appears to forget about CONCEPT people always go "OMG why they didn't put X Pokemon it deserved better", or "Jigglypuff is so bad nobody likes or use her in pokemon" Greninja has a great concept AND is popular, yeah ninjas are nothing new but fused with his water typing, being a pokemon, a good design, he just has everything in its favor, in other words grass types don't need to appear in the game just for the sake of having "a starter trinity" this is not pokemon, for your final sentence yet again this is not about Ash's pokemon it's about the pokemon themselves it doesn't matter if Ash has 50 grass types.

 

[Reality_Ciak]

You are using a "Pokemon mentality" when talking about imcomplete and out of balance, this is not a pokemon game as stated many times before Charizard is extremely popular from old fan veterans from Red and Blue and Greninja is super popular right now, I don't now if you play regulary pokemon but almost every 3 battles you will see a Greninja, the fact that he is liked and competitively viable give him the tools to really shine, somepeople appears to forget about CONCEPT people always go "OMG why they didn't put X Pokemon it deserved better", or "Jigglypuff is so bad nobody likes or use her in pokemon" Greninja has a great concept AND is popular, yeah ninjas ar nothing new but fused with his water typing, being a pokemon, a good design, he just has anything in its favor to shine, in other words grass types don't need to appear in the game just for the sake of having "a starter trinity" this is not pokemon, for your final sentence yet again this is not about Ash's pokemon it's about the pokemon themselves it doesn't matter if Ash has 50 grass types.

I understand all that. Smash isnt a Pokemon game. And I'm glad Greninja made it in. No need to defend him. Where's your argument against having a grass starter? "This is not a pokemon game" is all you're going on? Charizard and Greninja are in for popularity, not what they are to their games? All I was getting at with Ash was that Sceptile was like the third gen Charizard to the anime, which was your point for Greninja. He's had more water types than grass types. He shouldn't affect Smash at all, but the show affects popularity so...

Pokemon Trainer was cut for a reason; there is no logical evidence to support adding a grass-type Pokemon to complete some arbitrary trinity. Pokemon are selected based on their merits, Greninja was one of the most prominent 6th generation Pokemon.

Pokemon Trainer was cut due to the fact that they decided to due away with transforming characters. We assume Squirtle is cut do to the fact Greninja is a water starter. In popularity, Squirtle and Ivysaur probably can't hold their own. Not to mention they aren't top form. But they didn't get rid of ZSS or Sheik. They kept them. Sheik could have became Impa or cut. ZSS could have been cut. But they're back, to little surprise. I don't see why they would completely do away to grass types. To me, it just seems they wanted to spread representation across the generations to appeal to people who started with newer generations. If anything, Greninja suggest that there WILL be a grass type, how could it not? Third generation had awesome starters and the main reason Sceptile doesn't have the merit/popularity that Greninja and Charizard have is that Blaziken overshadows everyone. If a remake of R/S/E happens, Sceptile could easily become just as popular. That's a huge if. My main point is there is less evidence to support there will be no grass type than there is to suggest the could be a grass type.

That being said, we'll probably get the 4 we have, plus Jigglypuff, maybe Mewtwo. 6 reps, as Brawl had, would be ideal. Plus it represents a full team. Or maybe they'll just do 5, Mewtwo's not looking likely anymore with Lucario and Greninja both having aspects that chip away at Mewtwo's qualities. To best represent Pokemon, I think the 3 starter types, Pikachu, a legendary (Mewtwo), and a wild card (Lucario/Jigglypuff..) would be fair to the game. Smash isn't Pokemon, but it should reflect it properly. Fire, Water, Grass. It's the core of Pokemon. Then all other types. But then again, look at Fire Emblem, it's treated like blue haired swordsmen protagonists are all the games have to offer.... (Sword, Axe, Lance. Then the other weapons.)

 

[Morbi]

I understand all that. Smash isnt a Pokemon game. And I'm glad Greninja made it in. No need to defend him. Where's your argument against having a grass starter? "This is not a pokemon game" is all you're going on? Charizard and Greninja are in for popularity, not what they are to their games? All I was getting at with Ash was that Sceptile was like the third gen Charizard to the anime, which was your point for Greninja. He's had more water types than grass types. He shouldn't affect Smash at all, but the show affects popularity so...



Pokemon Trainer was cut due to the fact that they decided to due away with transforming characters. We assume Squirtle is cut do to the fact Greninja is a water starter. In popularity, Squirtle and Ivysaur probably can't hold their own. Not to mention they aren't top form. But they didn't get rid of ZSS or Sheik. They kept them. Sheik could have became Impa or cut. ZSS could have been cut. But they're back, to little surprise. I don't see why they would completely do away to grass types. To me, it just seems they wanted to spread representation across the generations to appeal to people who started with newer generations. If anything, Greninja suggest that there WILL be a grass type, how could it not? Third generation had awesome starters and the main reason Sceptile doesn't have the merit/popularity that Greninja and Charizard have is that Blaziken overshadows everyone. If a remake of R/S/E happens, Sceptile could easily become just as popular. That's a huge if. My main point is there is less evidence to support there will be no grass type than there is to suggest the could be a grass type.

That being said, we'll probably get the 4 we have, plus Jigglypuff, maybe Mewtwo. 6 reps, as Brawl had, would be ideal. Plus it represents a full team. Or maybe they'll just do 5, Mewtwo's not looking likely anymore with Lucario and Greninja both having aspects that chip away at Mewtwo's qualities. To best represent Pokemon, I think the 3 starter types, Pikachu, a legendary (Mewtwo), and a wild card (Lucario/Jigglypuff..) would be fair to the game. Smash isn't Pokemon, but it should reflect it properly. Fire, Water, Grass. It's the core of Pokemon. Then all other types. But then again, look at Fire Emblem, it's treated like blue haired swordsmen protagonists are all the games have to offer.... (Sword, Axe, Lance. Then the other weapons.)

I suppose I find difficulty supporting the notion that he cut two veterans to add two newcomers, based on typing, of course. That is the problem I personally have with the sentiment, it is counter-intuitive. Secondly, there is no objective evidence that satisfies your perspective, you are presuming that Sakurai's implied intent is evidence. Obviously that is fallacious. Lastly, Grovyle is the more prominent grass starter, so why would he add Sceptile? To adhere to an arbitrary pattern? I think not.

I wouldn't mind Sceptile, I really wouldn't. But there isn't anything to support your claim.

 

[Reality_Ciak]

I suppose I find difficulty supporting the notion that he cut two veterans to add two newcomers, based on typing, of course. That is the problem I personally have with the sentiment, it is counter-intuitive. Secondly, there is no objective evidence that satisfies your perspective, you are presuming that Sakurai's implied intent is evidence. Obviously that is fallacious. Lastly, Grovyle is the more prominent grass starter, so why would he add Sceptile? To adhere to an arbitrary pattern? I think not.

I wouldn't mind Sceptile, I really wouldn't. But there isn't anything to support your claim.

I guess there's really no strong evidence for or against a grass starter, it's mostly speculation and opinion at this point. Grovyle does make the most sense, but I thought that would just feel odd with the other two being fully evolved. But neither is Pikachu. I really don't know what will happen, none of us know yet. Sakurai is a pretty tricky puzzle to figure out. haha.

 

[Morbi]

I guess there's really no strong evidence for or against a grass starter, it's mostly speculation and opinion at this point. Grovyle does make the most sense, but I thought that would just feel odd with the other two being fully evolved. But neither is Pikachu. I really don't know what will happen, none of us know yet. Sakurai is a pretty tricky puzzle to figure out. haha.

Definitely; for all we know, we could be getting Serperior, it would be the first time we had a limbless character... I think.

 

[Burigu]

I understand all that. Smash isnt a Pokemon game. And I'm glad Greninja made it in. No need to defend him. Where's your argument against having a grass starter? "This is not a pokemon game" is all you're going on? Charizard and Greninja are in for popularity, not what they are to their games? All I was getting at with Ash was that Sceptile was like the third gen Charizard to the anime, which was your point for Greninja. He's had more water types than grass types. He shouldn't affect Smash at all, but the show affects popularity so...

Oh I wasn't defending Greninja I was using him to point out the things that made him appear in smash, about Charizard and Greninja I use the "this is not a pokemon game" because you use the lack of a grass type as "imcomplete" and "umbalanced" (I am not quoting you by the way with that but that is the general idea ) to say they NEED to add one (as in pokemon games). I know they made in based on popularity that's another reason to support the idea that we don't need a grass starter, the fact that Charizard and Greninja are in and both are starters it's just anecdotical they could have added another pokemon with a different status, by the way I don't mind having a grass type at all I just found the argument "we have fire and water starters we MUST have a grass type or it's not going to by fair" not a strong one to favor the inclusion. Yes maybe Sceptile was the "charizard" from hoenn saga, but it´s far less popular than him ( I have played every gen so no genwuner here) and Ash's starter grass types are: bulbasaur, bayleaf, sceptile, torterra, snivy against Ash's water types: squitle, totodile oshawot and now froakie that clearly shows that in staters grass types have been more than favored against water where none of them have never evolved

 

[fogbadge]

"Lucario joined the battle for the first time in Super Smash Bros. Brawl, which was released six years ago. The production staff of Brawl worked really hard to expand the character roster--without their efforts, Lucario probably never would have joined the battle." I don't quite understand this comment. It makes Lucario sound like an extra character, but then why did Mewtwo get cut? I expect 6, and between Lucario and Greninja, another charge B pokemon seems unlikely so unless they change up Mewto a bit to further distinguish him from those two. I desperately want him back and personally don't think they're too similar, but I feel alot if people would think they are. That being said, as unique and "important" Jigglypuff is to the Smash franchise, she isn't relevant in the least to the Pokemon franchise. So what she's a fairy now? She's not the poster child of the type. So what she was semi popular back when the anime featured her? Sing is her signature move and it's her worst move. Rest works completely wrong in Smash. She's misrepresentative. Meowth, Mewtwo, any starter, any legendary deserves a spot before her. But she's a running joke that they'll never let die. I think Sceptile, especially if a remake happens, could beat out either Mewtwo or Jiggs for a spot, and I'd prefer they finally cut Jiggs. Having two starter types without the third will feel incomplete, out of balance, and completely neglectful to those who prefer to chose grass starters. Not including one to replace Ivysaur would be a disservice.



I mean, Ash did have Treecko, Grovyle, Sceptile too...

the reason why jigglypuff was included never had anything to do with popularity it was because they wanted an other character in the first smash and it was easier to turn kirby into her

 

[Deleted member]

I mean, Ash did have Treecko, Grovyle, Sceptile too...

Sceptile has yet to be close to even Venusaur's level. Only Blaziken of Gen 3 has become superpopular and iconic.
Greninja's already broken the mold, and it's only been into public existence for about 6 months.

 

[BridgesWithTurtles]

In popularity, Squirtle and Ivysaur probably can't hold their own.

I don't know where this belief comes from, but I seriously cannot wrap my brain around this. Squirtle in particular is one of the most popular Pokémon in existence. Greninja gets revealed, and suddenly, it's as if the Kanto starters are some obscure group of Pokémon with a level of importance on par with Jigglypuff and the same amount of popularity as Grumpig. If Jigglypuff can hold her own, Ivysaur and especially Squirtle can.

Oh I wasn't defending Greninja I was using him to point out the things that made him appear in smash

This is another thing. I don't see how we can accredit Greninja's popularity to its inclusion in Smash. Greninja literally did not exist in the public eye more than 6 months ago. The roster was decided long before that. Popularity had nothing to do with it. You can use it to justify its inclusion, sure, but it certainly wasn't what got Greninja included to begin with, unless it's some exception that Sakurai and co. decided to include entirely within the past half-year.

I don't see a problem with including a Grass starter at this point. Sceptile, Torterra, Meganium, and Serperior certainly have their fans. Being around long enough has given them time to each become decently popular. That's more than Greninja had going for it when it was chosen to be included! By this whole "popularity" argument, Sceptile definitely deserves inclusion if Greninja does, because it'd be included to appeal to fans, not to market a game (unless R/S/E remakes actually happen). The real buzz word behind all of this, however, is not "popularity", but "marketing". Grass-type starters aren't likely to be included because none of them fall comfortably into a marketing agenda. Charizard is always being marketed, and Greninja was created and manufactured expressly to be marketed. Both Pokémon were obviously designed with the initial intention of being appealing to the masses and garnering large fanbases. I don't see what's so bad about now including a Grass starter that has managed to work up a fanbase without receiving half of the promotion that those two have gotten (keeping in mind that Greninja was almost certainly included before people even knew of its existence). This is an unlikely outcome, of course, and I don't think we'll be seeing any playable Grass starters. The most likely, though still unlikely, would be Sceptile, due to its relative popularity and the possibility of a Hoenn revival in the near future (but I am so against Sceptile that I'd rather we get no Grass starter at all). I still think Blaziken would be more likely, though, simply because it's received far more marketing and promotion, especially as of late.

 

[Reality_Ciak]

Sceptile has yet to be close to even Venusaur's level. Only Blaziken of Gen 3 has become superpopular and iconic.
Greninja's already broken the mold, and it's only been into public existence for about 6 months.

Greninja and Blaziken are more popular because they were competitively better. I'd say Venusaur is maybe more popular by seniority... But as far as Gen 3 goes, IF they announce the R/S/E remake before Smash Bros is out (in which Gamefreak would have tipped off Sakurai ahead of time if they wanted to promote it), Sceptile would be in before Blaziken. Because Blaziken would almost indisputably be a Captain Falcon clone. And we don't need 2 fire types. Grass type is the underdog in popularity, and it's not out of Sakurai's realm to do something against or away from popular opinion. I just don't think we can have certainty in either supporting or opposing a grass starter rep at this time.

 

[Reality_Ciak]

I don't know where this belief comes from, but I seriously cannot wrap my brain around this. Squirtle in particular is one of the most popular Pokémon in existence. Greninja gets revealed, and suddenly, it's as if the Kanto starters are some obscure group of Pokémon with a level of importance on par with Jigglypuff and the same amount of popularity as Grumpig. If Jigglypuff can hold her own, Ivysaur and especially Squirtle can.


This is another thing. I don't see how we can accredit Greninja's popularity to its inclusion in Smash. Greninja literally did not exist in the public eye more than 6 months ago. The roster was decided long before that. Popularity had nothing to do with it. You can use it to justify its inclusion, sure, but it certainly wasn't what got Greninja included to begin with, unless it's some exception that Sakurai and co. decided to include entirely within the past half-year.

I don't see a problem with including a Grass starter at this point. Sceptile, Torterra, Meganium, and Serperior certainly have their fans. Being around long enough has given them time to each become decently popular. That's more than Greninja had going for it when it was chosen to be included! By this whole "popularity" argument, Sceptile definitely deserves inclusion if Greninja does, because it'd be included to appeal to fans, not to market a game (unless R/S/E remakes actually happen). The real buzz word behind all of this, however, is not "popularity", but "marketing". Grass-type starters aren't likely to be included because none of them fall comfortably into a marketing agenda. Charizard is always being marketed, and Greninja was created and manufactured expressly to be marketed. Both Pokémon were obviously designed with the initial intention of being appealing to the masses and garnering large fanbases. I don't see what's so bad about now including a Grass starter that has managed to work up a fanbase without receiving half of the promotion that those two have gotten (keeping in mind that Greninja was almost certainly included before people even knew of its existence). This is an unlikely outcome, of course, and I don't think we'll be seeing any playable Grass starters. The most likely, though still unlikely, would be Sceptile, due to its relative popularity and the possibility of a Hoenn revival in the near future (but I am so against Sceptile that I'd rather we get no Grass starter at all). I still think Blaziken would be more likely, though, simply because it's received far more marketing and promotion, especially as of late.

I like the points you make despite our opposing opinions of Sceptile

 

[Deleted member]

Greninja and Blaziken are more popular because they were competitively better. I'd say Venusaur is maybe more popular by seniority... But as far as Gen 3 goes, IF they announce the R/S/E remake before Smash Bros is out (in which Gamefreak would have tipped off Sakurai ahead of time if they wanted to promote it), Sceptile would be in before Blaziken. Because Blaziken would almost indisputably be a Captain Falcon clone. And we don't need 2 fire types. Grass type is the underdog in popularity, and it's not out of Sakurai's realm to do something against or away from popular opinion. I just don't think we can have certainty in either supporting or opposing a grass starter rep at this time.

a) To assume Blaziken would be a Captain Falcon clone and nothing more is to make a very shortsighted assumption. It'd be like assuming Greninja would be a Sheik clone because lolninjas.
b) The type of the Pokémon doesn't make a difference. Sceptile being a Grass type would not bring any sort of advantage over Blaziken.
c) http://www.nowgamer.com/news/1970393/pokemon_in_super_smash_bros_how_theyre_selected.html After reading this, to expect Sceptile would be picked over the more popular and more promoted Blaziken is asinine.

EDIT: If anything, it would help Snivy/Serperior more than Sceptile due to how popular it was during Gen 5, but Snivy's a Poké Ball summon, so....

 

[Burigu]

I don't know where this belief comes from, but I seriously cannot wrap my brain around this. Squirtle in particular is one of the most popular Pokémon in existence. Greninja gets revealed, and suddenly, it's as if the Kanto starters are some obscure group of Pokémon with a level of importance on par with Jigglypuff and the same amount of popularity as Grumpig. If Jigglypuff can hold her own, Ivysaur and especially Squirtle can.


This is another thing. I don't see how we can accredit Greninja's popularity to its inclusion in Smash. Greninja literally did not exist in the public eye more than 6 months ago. The roster was decided long before that. Popularity had nothing to do with it. You can use it to justify its inclusion, sure, but it certainly wasn't what got Greninja included to begin with, unless it's some exception that Sakurai and co. decided to include entirely within the past half-year.

I don't see a problem with including a Grass starter at this point. Sceptile, Torterra, Meganium, and Serperior certainly have their fans. Being around long enough has given them time to each become decently popular. That's more than Greninja had going for it when it was chosen to be included! By this whole "popularity" argument, Sceptile definitely deserves inclusion if Greninja does, because it'd be included to appeal to fans, not to market a game (unless R/S/E remakes actually happen). The real buzz word behind all of this, however, is not "popularity", but "marketing". Grass-type starters aren't likely to be included because none of them fall comfortably into a marketing agenda. Charizard is always being marketed, and Greninja was created and manufactured expressly to be marketed. Both Pokémon were obviously designed with the initial intention of being appealing to the masses and garnering large fanbases. I don't see what's so bad about now including a Grass starter that has managed to work up a fanbase without receiving half of the promotion that those two have gotten (keeping in mind that Greninja was almost certainly included before people even knew of its existence). This is an unlikely outcome, of course, and I don't think we'll be seeing any playable Grass starters. The most likely, though still unlikely, would be Sceptile, due to its relative popularity and the possibility of a Hoenn revival in the near future (but I am so against Sceptile that I'd rather we get no Grass starter at all). I still think Blaziken would be more likely, though, simply because it's received far more marketing and promotion, especially as of late.

I factored Greninja's popularity in his inclusion sure, clearly it wasn't my primary point, I also said he made in because of concept and design, you say we didn't now about him 6 months ago, and claim that he was designed to be "marketed" you know that almost anything on the market was designed to by appealing, that doesn't means it will be a success, so in this case if the rooster was decided months ago then clearly Game Freak are marketing genious knowing Greninja will be as popular has he is, because that is indeed a fact the thing is yeah maybe Greninja was planned even before X/Y but 6 months in a game still in development is plenty of time to include and already popular pokemon, easier if the rest of the cast is already set, that way you waranty fans will like the pokemon the other way around is doubtfull because as I said before "being designed for marketing isn't equivalent as being sucessful.


Other than that as I said before I don't mind having a Grass type, but using the argument that a grass type MUST be in just because we already have fire and water is a flawed idea Charizard and Greninja are in because popularity (I doubt any company can almost be sure that their product will be sucessful and more in the case of Pokemon when you intruduce more than one product to the customer) and concept Greninja really has a cool concept.

 

[Reality_Ciak]

a) To assume Blaziken would be a Captain Falcon clone and nothing more is to make a very shortsighted assumption. It'd be like assuming Greninja would be a Sheik clone because lolninjas.
b) The type of the Pokémon doesn't make a difference. Sceptile being a Grass type would not bring any sort of advantage over Blaziken.
c) http://www.nowgamer.com/news/1970393/pokemon_in_super_smash_bros_how_theyre_selected.html After reading this, to expect Sceptile would be picked over the more popular and more promoted Blaziken is asinine.

EDIT: If anything, it would help Snivy/Serperior more than Sceptile due to how popular it was during Gen 5, but Snivy's a Poké Ball summon, so....

a) Blaze Kick and Sky Uppercut and Fire Punch... Brave Bird/Flare Blitz? Yeah there are other moves but signature Blaziken moves lend themselves to Captain Falcon style specials.
b/c)
"For example, X and Y are coming out – of course, we haven’t done any market research because they’re not out yet, but we look at the animated series or movies and anything like that and again, find out which ones are going to be central to any of conversations in Pokemon going forward.
But it’s not just that – going back to just what we talked about, what’s unique about them? Where do they fit in with the rest of everything else? What do they have? It’s a combination of those things."
Those comments further supports a grass type. Blaziken wins in popularity now, but what's unique about it? Where does it fit in with the rest of everything else? A grass type would fit in better than another fire type. It would be more unique. Who's to say Gamefreak wouldn't decide to make Sceptile the most competitive next time around and heavily promote him? Sceptile is central of this conversation, they have us talking about it. They had to expect speculation. And Sakurai will retain youth by feeding off of our hype and toying with us. haha

 

[Deleted member]

a) Blaze Kick and Sky Uppercut and Fire Punch... Brave Bird/Flare Blitz? Yeah there are other moves but signature Blaziken moves lend themselves to Captain Falcon style specials.
b/c)
"For example, X and Y are coming out – of course, we haven’t done any market research because they’re not out yet, but we look at the animated series or movies and anything like that and again, find out which ones are going to be central to any of conversations in Pokemon going forward.
But it’s not just that – going back to just what we talked about, what’s unique about them? Where do they fit in with the rest of everything else? What do they have? It’s a combination of those things."
Those comments further supports a grass type. Blaziken wins in popularity now, but what's unique about it? Where does it fit in with the rest of everything else? A grass type would fit in better than another fire type. It would be more unique. Who's to say Gamefreak wouldn't decide to make Sceptile the most competitive next time around and heavily promote him? Sceptile is central of this conversation, they have us talking about it. They had to expect speculation. And Sakurai will retain youth by feeding off of our hype and toying with us. haha

....I cannot take you seriously. At all.

 

[Reality_Ciak]

....I cannot take you seriously. At all.

I'm not asking you to. You're input has been acknowledged and appreciated. You're speaking from a current stand point and I agree with most of it. I'm speaking from unlikely speculation of a R/S/E remake that may or not happen. If it does, they (Gamefreak) can push and promote whichever Pokemon they want. If they were to only used already popular/ promoted Pokemon, they'd only use Pikachu to promote every game. Pokemon become popular and promoted by first being promoted. If you can't take the idea of them deciding to promote a different Pokemon seriously, so be it. If it's the comment about Blaziken being a Captain Falcon clone, they could make it completely different using any moves they wanted with reason. I would just see Blaziken being less unique due to we already have a fire and a fighting type, and a character they would have to avoid it playing similarly to. That just seems like more of a wasted effort than if Sakurai and Gamefreak were to collaboratively decided to use Sceptile, who is currently less appreciated, to promote the remake(s), and that's only if they are going to be made. My thoughts may be extremely hypothetical, but not so illogical that they shouldn't be taken seriously. it's a slim chance, but not completely far fetched.

Does anyone have anything that will progress the speculation?