FOX's MATCH UPS

[moyshe]

I started working on this a couple weeks ago and despite the unfortunate announcement about custom moves I thought I would post it anyway. This is very rough and I've taken everything we've talked about on Fox boards in consideration while making this, I watched every fox in apex and I've made a point of watching as much and gathering as much data as possible while making this. There isn't quite enough information and videos out there yet to make a fully informed MU Guide but I think this is a rough start.

Nonetheless, I'm not a top Fox player and I'm sure I've made some mistakes but I just wanted something a Fox player could go off of right now as a sort of base. I will change the Match Up Map after discussion and if anything is pointed out to me, this also doesnt have ot be the official Fox MU thread but I thought I would try to make something nice for you guys to look at since Fox boards has been a pretty great place for me and all of you have been very helpful whenever I've asked. And there really isn't a Match Up thread as of right now.

With the possibility of custom moves on the horizon these match ups will be different but these are only accounting for what I've seen and experienced as a Fox main since the games launch to right now.

Smash 4 is still a new game therefore it is hard to determine MU's right now because the Meta hasn't really began evolving yet, but hey, it's a start.

I apologize for the monologue, I will replace this with more information about each MU in time and with the help of Fox boards as a whole if this indeed becomes the main MU thread.


Sprites were made by Abysswolf, shouts out to him. http://abysswolf.deviantart.com/

 

[SoundChow]

I don't think the Fox-Falco matchup is 70:30 for Fox. My opinion may be bias but I think the MU is fifty-fifty. Falco has a hard time keeping up with a good Fox and can gain percent really quickly, though Fox has a much harder time killing than Falco. Other than that I'm kind of surprised how bad Fox's MU with ZSS is, though I know Falco does terrible against ZSS as well.

 

[moyshe]

I don't think the Fox-Falco matchup is 70:30 for Fox. My opinion may be bias but I think the MU is fifty-fifty. Falco has a hard time keeping up with a good Fox and can gain percent really quickly, though Fox has a much harder time killing than Falco. Other than that I'm kind of surprised how bad Fox's MU with ZSS is, though I know Falco does terrible against ZSS as well.

Right, my reasoning for Falco is more based just on how bad he is in this game unfortunately. I loved Falco in brawl so I was pretty upset to see what they did to him in this game. Falco does have somethings in the MU that are nice, like how long his dash attacks last not sure how many frames that is but it's crazy. But I personally haven't had any issues of desposing of Falco players as of yet but that might change. I do agree with you that Falco can kill easier but Fox in general can just play both the aggressive game and campy game without being punished all that much. I wouldn't say it's 50:50 but I would agree maybe 60:40 if anything, it's definitely a harder game for Falco's than Fox's.

ZSS punish game is insane and Fox really cant handle being combo'd in the air very well, that's why the Sonic MU sucks so much.

 

[EndlessRain]

Hmm. What's your reasoning for Yoshi? I find ZSS tricky of course, but I would argue that Yoshi is just as bad (maybe worse) simply because he has a counter to everything you can do. The combination of his nair and his light weight makes him impossible to combo, you can't really exploit his main weakness (Lack of a recovery move), you can't get anything more than just pummel+throw damage from a sideB punish... You just can't do enough to him before he kills you.
It's not as bad as Sonic though. I just switch characters for Sonic. Not going to deal with that sh*t.

 

[moyshe]

Hmm. What's your reasoning for Yoshi? I find ZSS tricky of course, but I would argue that Yoshi is just as bad (maybe worse) simply because he has a counter to everything you can do. The combination of his nair and his light weight makes him impossible to combo, you can't really exploit his main weakness (Lack of a recovery move), you can't get anything more than just pummel+throw damage from a sideB punish... You just can't do enough to him before he kills you.
It's not as bad as Sonic though. I just switch characters for Sonic. Not going to deal with that sh*t.

Yeah Yoshi is really tough, I agree with you my logic for 40:60 is just the fact that I've been able to punish Yoshi's for being too aggressive and just poking out damage until I get a kill. Yoshi's approach is also really easy to read as most of them try to get you to approach with eggs. Camping yoshi's is also pretty effective and just knowing how to approach and punish. But I think I do agree with you, it is a really hard MU, it probably is 30:70. I wish there were videos out of high level foxes playing high level yoshis.

 

[elmike]

can you elaborate on why 20:80 sonic, and 80:20 jiggly?

In my experience, is not that uneven. Mayb 40:60 sonic and 60:40 jiggly.
But again, i'm far from being a good fox (or smash player for that matter )

I will also change to 40:60 ZZS, but thats just me.

 

[Timbers]

imo you shouldn't be pasting MU numbers on every single character in the cast without first having a dedicated conversation with other Fox mains, rather than passively accruing information.

I thought that's what this thread was going to be.

also some of these MU numbers are incredibly drastic. 90:10 and 80:20 are very doubtful to even exist in this game outside of the immediate top tiers. also visiting a lot of the other character boards have a very different opinion on their Fox matchup than what is listed here.

EDIT: So I took more time reading your thread/monologue. I can see where you're coming from. I just really think this thread would have been in a much healthier state had you not "officially" labeled the matchup numbers on this sheet. I speak mostly for the new Fox's that are going to come here and see this, and then wonder why their 90:10 matchup against Charizard doesn't feel absolutely free, or why their 20:80 MU with Sonic doesn't feel incredibly helpless.

tl;dr the whole roster is much tighter in terms of viability. I doubt most of Fox's matchups are more erratic than 40:60/60:40

 

[Timbers]

doublepost

 

[Jasudin]

I feel that the other boards should be consulted in MUs before making numbers-- especially since SSB4's metagame is only in its incipient stages as of now.

 

[Zelkam]

I definitely have to disagree with the Link MU being 50:50. Link is slow, has plenty of laggy moves, and his weight makes him easy to combo/juggle. Not to mention with Fox's speed and his reflector, Links projectiles are rendered pretty much useless. As long as the Fox player plays smart, he shouldn't have much trouble taking care of Link.

 

[moyshe]

can you elaborate on why 20:80 sonic, and 80:20 jiggly?

In my experience, is not that uneven. Mayb 40:60 sonic and 60:40 jiggly.
But again, i'm far from being a good fox (or smash player for that matter )

I will also change to 40:60 ZZS, but thats just me.

Fox has a lot of issues with anybody faster than him and anybody who can combo him in the air and keep him there. I've played boku in tournament he's a sonic player in the top 10 of the nintendodojo ladder, and afterwards I played a couple more sonics. First match he 3 stocked me, second match it went down to the wire one stock a piece 100%+. I had to play campy, I had to run from him and poke every time he made a mistake and force him into approaching. But it's kind of like Meta knight in brawl where when you punished him it's 10-20% and when he punishes you its 40-50%. Any character that's faster than fox pretty much negates any aggressiveness fox can output, and once sonic gets fox in the air that's a good 30-40% if not a kill depending on what precent you're at.

Trust me that MU really really really sucks. If the video between Nakat and 6WF from Apex was on youtube I could back it up more but most people on here know how sucky of a MU it is.

Jiggs is 80-20 because theres really not much she can do, she HAS to approach us and that makes things pretty easy.

imo you shouldn't be pasting MU numbers on every single character in the cast without first having a dedicated conversation with other Fox mains, rather than passively accruing information.

I thought that's what this thread was going to be.

also some of these MU numbers are incredibly drastic. 90:10 and 80:20 are very doubtful to even exist in this game outside of the immediate top tiers. also visiting a lot of the other character boards have a very different opinion on their Fox matchup than what is listed here.

EDIT: So I took more time reading your thread/monologue. I can see where you're coming from. I just really think this thread would have been in a much healthier state had you not "officially" labeled the matchup numbers on this sheet. I speak mostly for the new Fox's that are going to come here and see this, and then wonder why their 90:10 matchup against Charizard doesn't feel absolutely free, or why their 20:80 MU with Sonic doesn't feel incredibly helpless.

tl;dr the whole roster is much tighter in terms of viability. I doubt most of Fox's matchups are more erratic than 40:60/60:40

This is more of a mock MU map if anything, I can delete it but it's really just based off impressions. Like I said, it's rough and doesnt have to be taken seriously but I just thought I'd make something for you guys and share my thoughts on MU's as of now. I agree with you completely, I can delete it if it's not healthy for Fox boards or Mod can just delete this thread as well.

I definitely have to disagree with the Link MU being 50:50. Link is slow, has plenty of laggy moves, and his weight makes him easy to combo/juggle. Not to mention with Fox's speed and his reflector, Links projectiles are rendered pretty much useless. As long as the Fox player plays smart, he shouldn't have much trouble taking care of Link.

Link has a really easy time keeping Fox at bay imo, especially if the Link knows how to constantly apply pressure with projectiles. I've been playing nonstop matches with a friend of mine Notra, he was power ranked in Michigan and was one of the top falcos back in brawl. He's a link main in Smash 4 and he just never stops applying pressure on the stage. Theres always bombs on the ground, theres always some in the air, if you reflector too much it becomes incredibly predictable and really easy to punish. it's really hard for Fox to get in with that pressure especially when lasers can be punished. I agree with you that reflectors do make that MU a little easier for Fox and Fox can tech out of Link's upsmash so maybe it'd be 60:40 or something but it's just really easy to punish the reflector when used too much.

 

[Jasudin]

I definitely have to disagree with the Link MU being 50:50. Link is slow, has plenty of laggy moves, and his weight makes him easy to combo/juggle. Not to mention with Fox's speed and his reflector, Links projectiles are rendered pretty much useless. As long as the Fox player plays smart, he shouldn't have much trouble taking care of Link.

Your explanation should have been:
Utilt, Utilt, Utilt, Utilt, Utilt, Utilt, Utilt, Utilt, Utilt, Utilt, Utilt, Utilt.

Planted bombs (that timer...) help make approaching slightly more onerous for Fox though and reflector leaves Fox open unless he does the "instant action upon reflecting a projectile" AT. Otherwise, I assent.

 

[moyshe]

Your explanation should have been:
Utilt, Utilt, Utilt, Utilt, Utilt, Utilt, Utilt, Utilt, Utilt, Utilt, Utilt, Utilt.

Planted bombs (that timer...) help make approaching slightly more onerous for Fox though and reflector leaves Fox open unless he does the "instant action upon reflecting a projectile" AT. Otherwise, I assent.

yeah he is really easy to combo once you get past the wall of bombs arrows and boomerangs, it's like a good 40-50% when you do too.

EDIT: But for real though, I didnt mean to stir the pot or create any sort of unhealthy atmosphere by creating these numbers. So I apologize for that. I understand that Fox boards has only really talked about 2 or 3 MU's and it requires the input of other character's boards. But I thought this could start conversations about it well.

 

[Timbers]

Fox has a lot of issues with anybody faster than him and anybody who can combo him in the air and keep him there. I've played boku in tournament he's a sonic player in the top 10 of the nintendodojo ladder, and afterwards I played a couple more sonics. First match he 3 stocked me, second match it went down to the wire one stock a piece 100%+. I had to play campy, I had to run from him and poke every time he made a mistake and force him into approaching. But it's kind of like Meta knight in brawl where when you punished him it's 10-20% and when he punishes you its 40-50%. Any character that's faster than fox pretty much negates any aggressiveness fox can output, and once sonic gets fox in the air that's a good 30-40% if not a kill depending on what precent you're at.

Trust me that MU really really really sucks. If the video between Nakat and 6WF from Apex was on youtube I could back it up more but most people on here know how sucky of a MU it is.

Jiggs is 80-20 because theres really not much she can do, she HAS to approach us and that makes things pretty easy.

Sonic players also think that Fox gives them trouble due to Fox being able to follow Sonic's landings very easily. Playing against Sonic is annoying, no joke, but 20:80 is SEVERE. I'm not a big fan of Nakat vs. 6WX Apex match. Nakat made..quite a few mistakes (jumping on Smashville platform and getting bthrown at ~35% is a notable one. Also raw usmashing a standing Sonic's shield and getting bthrown killed).

There's some videos of Megafox vs. Espy that showcase some high level play for that MU. Megafox is likely the better player of the two, but overall both of their play shows a good understanding of each character's strengths.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_38pXcnl6c (one week old)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7EwIf-aOLo (two weeks old)

As far as Jiggs is concerned, I don't think there's enough of a display of Jiggs play to really make an educated assessment of the MU. Certainly not enough to say it's a one sided win for Fox. Theoretically speaking, Jiggs should be able to stay safe camping in the air. Fox has no anti air tools outside of utilt, and it's a questionable use against Jiggs amazing aerial acceleration. The few Jiggs I've played against have mostly been me trying to contest her with utilts and bairs, and uair is devastating against her, but I certainly don't have enough knowledge of the MU to say much about it. Jiggs gets free gimps on Fox's recovery should he go offstage I'd imagine.

Link has a really easy time keeping Fox at bay imo, especially if the Link knows how to constantly apply pressure with projectiles. I've been playing nonstop matches with a friend of mine Notra, he was power ranked in Michigan and was one of the top falcos back in brawl. He's a link main in Smash 4 and he just never stops applying pressure on the stage. Theres always bombs on the ground, theres always some in the air, if you reflector too much it becomes incredibly predictable and really easy to punish. it's really hard for Fox to get in with that pressure especially when lasers can be punished. I agree with you that reflectors do make that MU a little easier for Fox and Fox can tech out of Link's upsmash so maybe it'd be 60:40 or something but it's just really easy to punish the reflector when used too much.

I can agree with most of this. Fox likely has the upperhand on Link, but Link's zoning and disjoints make it a challenge to get in on him.

EDIT: But for real though, I didnt mean to stir the pot or create any sort of unhealthy atmosphere by creating these numbers. So I apologize for that. I understand that Fox boards has only really talked about 2 or 3 MU's and it requires the input of other character's boards. But I thought this could start conversations about it well.

"Stirring the pot" is actually probably a good thing for these boards. The activity around here is incredibly stale, and at least getting people to start talking about MUs is definitely not bad.

If these boards were a little more active, I'd say starting a MU discussion thread would be beneficial, but I'm not sure how much progress it'd make.

 

[Zelkam]

Link has a really easy time keeping Fox at bay imo, especially if the Link knows how to constantly apply pressure with projectiles. I've been playing nonstop matches with a friend of mine Notra, he was power ranked in Michigan and was one of the top falcos back in brawl. He's a link main in Smash 4 and he just never stops applying pressure on the stage. Theres always bombs on the ground, theres always some in the air, if you reflector too much it becomes incredibly predictable and really easy to punish. it's really hard for Fox to get in with that pressure especially when lasers can be punished. I agree with you that reflectors do make that MU a little easier for Fox and Fox can tech out of Link's upsmash so maybe it'd be 60:40 or something but it's just really easy to punish the reflector when used too much.

I just find it odd that Link's at 50:50 and Gay's at 70:30. It seems to me that Gay would have an easier time handling Fox seeing as how he has the same exact tool (in terms of projectiles at least) as Link, he's faster so he can keep up with Fox better, and he's floaty so he doesn't get comboed as easily.

I definitely think the Link MU should at least be 60:40 in Fox's favor.

 

[M@v]

Probably shouldn't make up mu numbers all on your own and then post them on the boards...generally want to take it character by character, and it takes a while to figure out, especially this early in a meta. Speaking from experience here ^_^

 

[Espy Rose]

Sonic vs. Fox is probably 50/50, perhaps slightly in Fox's favor, but not so much that it significantly changes that MU ratio.
Fox destroys Sonic when he gets him into the air, but that also applies for the swapped scenario. I think Fox probably gets heavier punishes as far as percentage damage goes when that situation shows up in his favor, but Sonic probably has an easier time KOing him.

If Sonic doesn't spin too often, Fox struggles a bit to send him into the air. It's a pretty messy match up, and the first stock dictates the pacing from that point on. They both kinda suck at catching up to the other because their KO moves are pretty easy for each other to avoid.

I also feel that Fox benefits a bit more in 3 stock settings, but that's just a wild guess, really.

 

[M@v]

I think Fox is fine in both 2 and 3 stocks. And yeah Fox sonic is even to me, but it can hard to play as either character in it. Both characters can punish each other really hard for mistakes. Its one of my most well versed matchups so far.

 

[dahuterschuter]

I agree with this in general.

 

[Espy Rose]

I think Fox is fine in both 2 and 3 stocks. And yeah Fox sonic is even to me, but it can hard to play as either character in it. Both characters can punish each other really hard for mistakes. Its one of my most well versed matchups so far.

Yeah, I didn't mean it to say that he wasn't good in 2 stocks. I just think that Sonic's strengths are kinda lowered with more stocks. Sonic thrives on momentum, and doesn't have tools as strong as Fox's to defend himself when that momentum is taken away from him.

It's a tough match for either end because Fox and Sonic can effectively box each other out. If one of them doesn't want to get hit, they can make it happen. That's why getting the stock lead is super important in this matchup. Whoever gets that lead dictates the remainder of the match, and unless a hard read, SD, or early KO changes that, it tends to stay in favor of the side with more stock.

 

[elmike]

do you guys consider there is a notably uneven MU for fox? (in fox disadvantage).
Like easily at least 40:60?

 

[DavemanCozy]

There are a couple MUs I disagree with. I'll comment on only one of them, as I have the most experience with this one:

55:45 should be the number, imo.
(edit: possibly much better in favor of Mac, 65:35 is as far as I'd say)

I think Fox loses this MU. Mac has a better ground game: faster jab, dashing speed, f-tilt covers (first hit) and spaces him forward, his counter + Smash attacks to keep him anchored to the ground which makes it annoying to pop him up in the air. Jab 1 confirm -> Up-B KOs Fox rather quickly too (forget the exact % range atm).

One thing Fox is really good at is racking up damage. That's one thing that works in Mac's favor, as he eventually gets Rest Punch and that will seal the stock on a 25% Fox.

Mac's D-smash has surprisingly good range and can hit Fox's trying to sweetspot the ledge with Side-B.

The positives here:
- Offstage N-air vs Mac pretty much dooms him.
- D-smash KO's him at ~80% from centre stage, earlier than U-smash, because of the horizontal knockback it sends him offstage in.
- Little Mac is combo friendly, as long as you watch out for the Counter and bait it out.

One of my training partners is a Little Mac main. This isn't an unwinnable MU for Fox but it's definitely not in his favor.

 

[Timbers]

There are a couple MUs I disagree with. I'll comment on only one of them, as I have the most experience with this one:

55:45 should be the number, imo.

I think Fox loses this MU. Mac has a better ground game: faster jab, dashing speed, f-tilt covers (first hit) and spaces him forward, his counter + Smash attacks to keep him anchored to the ground which makes it annoying to pop him up in the air. Jab 1 confirm -> Up-B KOs Fox rather quickly too (forget the exact % range atm).

I agree, but I didn't have the MU experience to talk heavily on this matter. Stage counterpicks probably help out Fox a lot in this MU, and a lot of Macs have claimed that SV is one of their worst stages (I'm guessing due to easy timeouts on SV platform), so I think this helps.

Mac's D-smash has surprisingly good range and can hit Fox's trying to sweetspot the ledge with Side-B.

The positives here:
- Offstage N-air vs Mac pretty much dooms him.
- D-smash KO's him at ~80%, earlier than U-smash, because of the horizontal knockback it sends him offstage in.
- Little Mac is combo friendly, as long as you watch out for the Counter and bait it out.

One of my training partners is a Little Mac main. This isn't an unwinnable MU for Fox but it's definitely not in his favor.

I've been confident in using upB back to stage in this MU in the event that Mac is already on the edge of the stage. Mac's edgeguard is obviously underwhelming, and there's no option he has that's more threatening than dsmashing a sideB.

Nair gimps are..weird to me? Sometimes they work, sometimes Mac can recover into your upB to gain vertical height. It's another crux to Fox's upB start frames. I wonder if forcing Mac's upB and contesting with dsmash is a better solution (since no ledgesnap), but you probably have a better sense of how to deal with Mac offstage.

 

[luke_atyeo]

Link has a really easy time keeping Fox at bay imo, especially if the Link knows how to constantly apply pressure with projectiles. I've been playing nonstop matches with a friend of mine Notra, he was power ranked in Michigan and was one of the top falcos back in brawl. He's a link main in Smash 4 and he just never stops applying pressure on the stage. Theres always bombs on the ground, theres always some in the air, if you reflector too much it becomes incredibly predictable and really easy to punish. it's really hard for Fox to get in with that pressure especially when lasers can be punished. I agree with you that reflectors do make that MU a little easier for Fox and Fox can tech out of Link's upsmash so maybe it'd be 60:40 or something but it's just really easy to punish the reflector when used too much.

fox link is deffinently not 50:50

Link does not have an easy time at all keeping fox at bay, fox is way too fast for that.
You should almost never use reflector, use your speed to go around the projectiles, because fox has great speed and spacing both vertically and horizontally, you can just go around the projectiles to get to mid/short range, and from that range you can punish the start up of projectiles. Played correctly, once fox gets close (not in, just close) the pressure game reverses onto link.
The reflector should be used rarely if at all, if links are beating foxes that rely too much on shine then thats not representative of the matchup, thats just bad play.
Furthermore, since you can instantly cancel shine as soon as it reflects something, the only way you'd get a punish on shine is if A. fox shines at super close range, and he should never do this, or B. fox shines and link intentionally misses his projectile so that fox cant cancel his shine, but this ties back into A. since this really only works if link is close to fox.

Arrows cant stop fox from approaching from above at around a 45 degree angle, bomb pulling is slow enough to be punished, and boomerang cant cover link past a 45 degree angle, so if fox jumps over you and crosses you up, your projectiles cant do **** to him, and at super long range he can weave through your projectiles to get back to close range.
If fox tries to rush at you from long range sure its not too hard to projectile wall him, but if he is patient and comes in carefully you cant stop him from getting close.

And once fox gets advantage on you, you are in for a world of pain.

tl;dr, played properly, fox doesn't give a **** about links projectiles.
The only time they are really a danger is when fox is trying to recover back to the stage.

If you are interested in reading more into this matchup specifically, go to the link boards fox match up thread. (http://smashboards.com/threads/mu-how-do-you-deal-with-fox.375216/)

 

[G-Sword]

fox link is deffinently not 50:50

Link does not have an easy time at all keeping fox at bay, fox is way too fast for that.
You should almost never use reflector, use your speed to go around the projectiles, because fox has great speed and spacing both vertically and horizontally, you can just go around the projectiles to get to mid/short range, and from that range you can punish the start up of projectiles. Played correctly, once fox gets close (not in, just close) the pressure game reverses onto link.
The reflector should be used rarely if at all, if links are beating foxes that rely too much on shine then thats not representative of the matchup, thats just bad play.
Furthermore, since you can instantly cancel shine as soon as it reflects something, the only way you'd get a punish on shine is if A. fox shines at super close range, and he should never do this, or B. fox shines and link intentionally misses his projectile so that fox cant cancel his shine, but this ties back into A. since this really only works if link is close to fox.

Arrows cant stop fox from approaching from above at around a 45 degree angle, bomb pulling is slow enough to be punished, and boomerang cant cover link past a 45 degree angle, so if fox jumps over you and crosses you up, your projectiles cant do **** to him, and at super long range he can weave through your projectiles to get back to close range.
If fox tries to rush at you from long range sure its not too hard to projectile wall him, but if he is patient and comes in carefully you cant stop him from getting close.

And once fox gets advantage on you, you are in for a world of pain.

tl;dr, played properly, fox doesn't give a **** about links projectiles.
The only time they are really a danger is when fox is trying to recover back to the stage.

If you are interested in reading more into this matchup specifically, go to the link boards fox match up thread. (http://smashboards.com/threads/mu-how-do-you-deal-with-fox.375216/)

Agreed definitely not 50/50... 60/40 maybe even more in my opinion.

 

[moyshe]

I think Fox is fine in both 2 and 3 stocks. And yeah Fox sonic is even to me, but it can hard to play as either character in it. Both characters can punish each other really hard for mistakes. Its one of my most well versed matchups so far.

I dont know, from what I've seen Sonic is pretty hard for Fox to deal with. But I could be wrong, I changed the MU numbers to represent what you guys were talking about more.

fox link is deffinently not 50:50

Link does not have an easy time at all keeping fox at bay, fox is way too fast for that.
You should almost never use reflector, use your speed to go around the projectiles, because fox has great speed and spacing both vertically and horizontally, you can just go around the projectiles to get to mid/short range, and from that range you can punish the start up of projectiles. Played correctly, once fox gets close (not in, just close) the pressure game reverses onto link.
The reflector should be used rarely if at all, if links are beating foxes that rely too much on shine then thats not representative of the matchup, thats just bad play.
Furthermore, since you can instantly cancel shine as soon as it reflects something, the only way you'd get a punish on shine is if A. fox shines at super close range, and he should never do this, or B. fox shines and link intentionally misses his projectile so that fox cant cancel his shine, but this ties back into A. since this really only works if link is close to fox.

Arrows cant stop fox from approaching from above at around a 45 degree angle, bomb pulling is slow enough to be punished, and boomerang cant cover link past a 45 degree angle, so if fox jumps over you and crosses you up, your projectiles cant do **** to him, and at super long range he can weave through your projectiles to get back to close range.
If fox tries to rush at you from long range sure its not too hard to projectile wall him, but if he is patient and comes in carefully you cant stop him from getting close.

And once fox gets advantage on you, you are in for a world of pain.

tl;dr, played properly, fox doesn't give a **** about links projectiles.
The only time they are really a danger is when fox is trying to recover back to the stage.

If you are interested in reading more into this matchup specifically, go to the link boards fox match up thread. (http://smashboards.com/threads/mu-how-do-you-deal-with-fox.375216/)

Thanks for the input! It's great to have this detailed information about the MU from a link players prosective. I updated it to 60:40, but I dont think it's anything more than that. The Link that I play always has bombs on the ground with z-dropping and in his hand and makes approaching incredibly hard but I do think that once Fox gets in, there isn't much Link can do to avoid a good 30-40% of damage being done to him. But yeah I definitely think I was wrong about it being 50:50, its definitely not even.

I feel that the other boards should be consulted in MUs before making numbers-- especially since SSB4's metagame is only in its incipient stages as of now.

Definitely agree with you, again I dont want to ruffle any feathers and can delete this but I thought this would offer a good hub to start talking about these things and these numbers are all in progress and not at all final.

 

[Timbers]

Generally voicing my concerns of MU numbers on this chart that I feel are incredibly incorrect. Some of these characters I have little to no experience against, but theory suggests that these MUs are not so lopsided:

Bowser (80:20) - Bowser upB OoS. Great jabs. Dtilt's long active frames make it a mess to sideB recover. Our jabs not having the ability to inflict knockback until ~110%. I feel like this number was slapped on because "Bowser=heavy and Fox=slays heavies," which I don't think rings true in this Smash iteration. Still in Fox's favor, but I doubt it's so one-sided? Bowser boards have the opinion of 60:40/65:35 Fox favor.

Falco (70:30) - I don't have much Falco experience, but it's yet another match where jab cancels are ineffective and Falco has arguably the better neutral. Falco boards have the opinion of 55:45 Fox favor.

Lil Mac (70:30) - Was already talked about a bit in this thread. I feel like anywhere that Mac is ever mentioned shows praise for Mac being a good pick against Fox though.

Robin (80:20) - Little experience against Robin, but I'm mostly attacking these numbers due to them being so extreme. Robin players have talked a bit about their disdain for Fox, but seem to mention a handful of other characters being even harder for Robin. Maybe I'm just being optimistic for the character but I'd hate to hear that Robin has several matchups that are even WORSE than 20:80. It probably is a 65:35/70:30 Fox favor, but this is a MU I see played so infrequently that I think there should be more concrete evidence before plastering such big numbers around.

Charizard (75:25) - Maybe I'm missing the big picture with Charizard, but this character feels like no joke against Fox. Flamethrower is like, a guaranteed edgeguard/ledgetrap against Fox. Jabs are fast with huge range and tons of damage. Great grab. Rock Smash is the real MVP. I oddly see this MU played occasionally, and it always remains close (but this could be due to lack of Charizard players). I'd honestly put this more in the realm of 60:40 Fox favor.

Ike (80:20) - This is another MU I'm targeting due to numbers and lack of any high level gameplay to consider it so one-sided. I guess I'm mostly uncertain why Ike is listed as 80:20 and Shulk is 60:40. Ike actually has an aerial game that needs to be respected, in that his bair alone is more threatening than any of Shulk's telegraphed options. Strong grab game and combo potential. He's susceptible to jab lock, but so is Shulk. I actually feel Shulk is a much easier MU than Ike in this regard, and would (if anything) put Shulk around 70:30 and Ike at 60:40, but that's just my opinion and something that should be discussed further.

Ganon (90:10) - Just another crazy number, really. It's obviously Fox's advantage. Ganon (like DDD or DK) is a heavy that also has really poor options to contest juggling. Even worse is he has nothing going for him once Fox gets in. His jab sucks, grab range sucks, etc. Packs one helluva punch, but as long as you're not taking any unnecessary risks then the MU should go swell. But 90:10? That's..pretty crazy. Fox may as well not have a projectile game, and this is great for Ganon. Fox still has a poor grab game and poor options when opponents reset to ledge. An overly defensive Ganon is going to make it very hard for you to net the kill, and this is a huge reason why I think none of Fox's MUs are so polarizing. 65:35? 70:30? Probably. 90:10? No way.

MK (70:30) - Limited experience on this MU, but I won't be surprised if MK winds up being a bad MU for Fox. He plays the frametrap game better than Fox. Great edgeguard game against linear recoveries. I guess I don't have any real points here, but it's a MU I'd like to talk about more, and wish there were more MKs out there doing stuff with the character.

Jiggs (80:20) - We lose two things here that bothers me about these numbers being so one-sided. We lose jab cancels at all percents, and we lose our great ground game. Fox has a very hard time keeping Jiggs from doing what she loves to do with weaving. Another instance where Fox going offstage feels so very auto-gimp. Despite Jiggs being as light as she is, she's still much harder to kill than most of the cast that can be kill confirmed easily with jab cancels, utilt, late nair, etc. Another character that I wish saw more play, and a MU I'd like to talk about more.


Just a few characters I'd like to talk about, as I feel they're misrepresented on the chart. I left characters alone that I may disagree with on MU numbers, but no more than slightly.

If anyone wishes to chime in.

 

[luke_atyeo]

Thanks for the input! It's great to have this detailed information about the MU from a link players prosective.

I dont play link I play fox




fox recks robin but I dont think its 80:20 either, I'd be very surprised if there was even one 80:20 matchup in the whole game at this point

 

[Zelkam]

Link player comes in and says Link:Fox matchup is not even, gets ignored. Fox player comes in and says Link:Fox matchup is not even, gets mistaken for Link player and has advice taken.

 

[moyshe]

Generally voicing my concerns of MU numbers on this chart that I feel are incredibly incorrect. Some of these characters I have little to no experience against, but theory suggests that these MUs are not so lopsided:

Bowser (80:20) - Bowser upB OoS. Great jabs. Dtilt's long active frames make it a mess to sideB recover. Our jabs not having the ability to inflict knockback until ~110%. I feel like this number was slapped on because "Bowser=heavy and Fox=slays heavies," which I don't think rings true in this Smash iteration. Still in Fox's favor, but I doubt it's so one-sided? Bowser boards have the opinion of 60:40/65:35 Fox favor.

Falco (70:30) - I don't have much Falco experience, but it's yet another match where jab cancels are ineffective and Falco has arguably the better neutral. Falco boards have the opinion of 55:45 Fox favor.

Lil Mac (70:30) - Was already talked about a bit in this thread. I feel like anywhere that Mac is ever mentioned shows praise for Mac being a good pick against Fox though.

Robin (80:20) - Little experience against Robin, but I'm mostly attacking these numbers due to them being so extreme. Robin players have talked a bit about their disdain for Fox, but seem to mention a handful of other characters being even harder for Robin. Maybe I'm just being optimistic for the character but I'd hate to hear that Robin has several matchups that are even WORSE than 20:80. It probably is a 65:35/70:30 Fox favor, but this is a MU I see played so infrequently that I think there should be more concrete evidence before plastering such big numbers around.

Charizard (75:25) - Maybe I'm missing the big picture with Charizard, but this character feels like no joke against Fox. Flamethrower is like, a guaranteed edgeguard/ledgetrap against Fox. Jabs are fast with huge range and tons of damage. Great grab. Rock Smash is the real MVP. I oddly see this MU played occasionally, and it always remains close (but this could be due to lack of Charizard players). I'd honestly put this more in the realm of 60:40 Fox favor.

Ike (80:20) - This is another MU I'm targeting due to numbers and lack of any high level gameplay to consider it so one-sided. I guess I'm mostly uncertain why Ike is listed as 80:20 and Shulk is 60:40. Ike actually has an aerial game that needs to be respected, in that his bair alone is more threatening than any of Shulk's telegraphed options. Strong grab game and combo potential. He's susceptible to jab lock, but so is Shulk. I actually feel Shulk is a much easier MU than Ike in this regard, and would (if anything) put Shulk around 70:30 and Ike at 60:40, but that's just my opinion and something that should be discussed further.

Ganon (90:10) - Just another crazy number, really. It's obviously Fox's advantage. Ganon (like DDD or DK) is a heavy that also has really poor options to contest juggling. Even worse is he has nothing going for him once Fox gets in. His jab sucks, grab range sucks, etc. Packs one helluva punch, but as long as you're not taking any unnecessary risks then the MU should go swell. But 90:10? That's..pretty crazy. Fox may as well not have a projectile game, and this is great for Ganon. Fox still has a poor grab game and poor options when opponents reset to ledge. An overly defensive Ganon is going to make it very hard for you to net the kill, and this is a huge reason why I think none of Fox's MUs are so polarizing. 65:35? 70:30? Probably. 90:10? No way.

MK (70:30) - Limited experience on this MU, but I won't be surprised if MK winds up being a bad MU for Fox. He plays the frametrap game better than Fox. Great edgeguard game against linear recoveries. I guess I don't have any real points here, but it's a MU I'd like to talk about more, and wish there were more MKs out there doing stuff with the character.

Jiggs (80:20) - We lose two things here that bothers me about these numbers being so one-sided. We lose jab cancels at all percents, and we lose our great ground game. Fox has a very hard time keeping Jiggs from doing what she loves to do with weaving. Another instance where Fox going offstage feels so very auto-gimp. Despite Jiggs being as light as she is, she's still much harder to kill than most of the cast that can be kill confirmed easily with jab cancels, utilt, late nair, etc. Another character that I wish saw more play, and a MU I'd like to talk about more.


Just a few characters I'd like to talk about, as I feel they're misrepresented on the chart. I left characters alone that I may disagree with on MU numbers, but no more than slightly.

If anyone wishes to chime in.

Again those numbers were kind of just first impressions from my experiences, all of which are wrong for the most part but were just meant to start conversations. But I agree with you and cannot thank you enough for writing all this out. My reasoning for numbers like 80:20,90:10, is that it seems like if the Fox knows what he's doing the MU is almost unwinnable for characters like Ganon, Charizard, etc. Big characters for Fox are just combo playgrounds, one hole that I do find in my number is Fox's issues with killing and that it becomes harder with big characters that can punish Fox at higher percents. But I do see what you're saying as well. Honestly I haven't seen any good MK's period in this game yet, so I just went off the tier list for that number.

I dont play link I play fox




fox recks robin but I dont think its 80:20 either, I'd be very surprised if there was even one 80:20 matchup in the whole game at this point

Why did I thnk you played fox? Im really sorry about that. And yeah I agree that number is a little crazy.

Link player comes in and says Link:Fox matchup is not even, gets ignored. Fox player comes in and says Link:Fox matchup is not even, gets mistaken for Link player and has advice taken.

Really sorry about that!!! I have no idea why I thought he was a Link player. I did read what you wrote because I changed the number to 60:40 and I read what you had to say in the Link thread that Luke posted. Sorry about the mistake, I value your advice .

 

[luke_atyeo]

Why did I thnk you played fox?

probably because I do

 

[Zelkam]

Really sorry about that!!! I have no idea why I thought he was a Link player. I did read what you wrote because I changed the number to 60:40 and I read what you had to say in the Link thread that Luke posted. Sorry about the mistake, I value your advice .

No worries, it was an honest mistake. I just thought it was funny.

 

[SoundChow]

Generally voicing my concerns of MU numbers on this chart that I feel are incredibly incorrect. Some of these characters I have little to no experience against, but theory suggests that these MUs are not so lopsided:

Jiggs (80:20) - We lose two things here that bothers me about these numbers being so one-sided. We lose jab cancels at all percents, and we lose our great ground game. Fox has a very hard time keeping Jiggs from doing what she loves to do with weaving. Another instance where Fox going offstage feels so very auto-gimp. Despite Jiggs being as light as she is, she's still much harder to kill than most of the cast that can be kill confirmed easily with jab cancels, utilt, late nair, etc. Another character that I wish saw more play, and a MU I'd like to talk about more.
.

I'd say the jiggs number is also incorrect. I play her a lot because my brother mains her and find it to be a difficult matchup. First it's hard to land combos and kill her because of her weight. I'll usually go for something like dash-attack, and then follow-up with an u-air for the kill, because I can rarely land an up-smash. She has a good air game with her powerful back-air and a longlasting n-air which combos into itself, as well as a shield-breaking side-b. I'd have to say that this match-up is even.

 

[moyshe]

probably because I do

BAHHH I MEANT LINK.. lol

 

[luke_atyeo]

gotta up that posting game son

Link player comes in and says Link:Fox matchup is not even, gets ignored. Fox player comes in and says Link:Fox matchup is not even, gets mistaken for Link player and has advice taken.

only reason I posted was to backup your opinion anyway since it got more or less ignored and I happened to agree with it


it was pretty amusing though

 

[M@v]

Robin does a lot better vs fox than you are giving him for. You can't reflect arcfire back to hit robin ; it just goes airborne. Its is relatively safe for him if you reflect it because by the time you do he's out of his lag. Just punish it differently. More importantly though, Robin actually does a pretty good hob edge guarding fox.

 

[Timbers]

Robin actually does a pretty good hob edge guarding fox.

This is definitely notable. Robin has a lot of lingering hitboxes that eat sideB's. Dropping arcfires on the ledge shut down a lot of Fox's options, and contesting a wall of disjoints as Fox in disadvantage is suicide. I can see where the groans from Robin mains about Fox are coming from, though. He's a fast character that can really put on the hurt should he break through Robin's zone, as Robin suffers from a lot of ending lag.

Big characters for Fox are just combo playgrounds

This is true to a point, but I wouldn't classify Fox as a character that can take advantage of "combo playgrounds." He's definitely not in the realm of Sheik, Diddy, Luigi, Mario, Falcon, Pikachu, etc etc. and doesn't have the disjoints or fast startup frames on aerials to reliably contest and juggle. Also suffers from one of the worst edgeguard games of the viable roster, which gives heavies a big sigh of relief.

 

[moyshe]

Robin does a lot better vs fox than you are giving him for. You can't reflect arcfire back to hit robin ; it just goes airborne. Its is relatively safe for him if you reflect it because by the time you do he's out of his lag. Just punish it differently. More importantly though, Robin actually does a pretty good hob edge guarding fox.

You definitely have a point, but Robin being one of the slowest characters in the game really gives Fox the upper hand. It might not be 80:20 but I can't see it much more than that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55yTAQg0x_g

gotta up that posting game son

Yeah my posting game has been weak, I haven't had much time lately with school and I'm in Florida for spring break currently.

 

[M@v]

One of my main practice partners is a Robin main; they aren't trying hard enough. If robin does it right he shuts down 85-90% of my options as Fox when I'm recovering/on ledge. Arcfire on ledge does most of the work by itself.If Robin mistimes an arcfire you can punish it hard by getting underneath it; but smart robins will know better.

 

[Rhus]

Numbers in the OP are pretty extreme. I feel like most of the 70:30 matchups listed are closer to 60:40 or even 55:45.

The one I do have input on is Falco, however. I just spent a decent amount of time playing against a good Falco yesterday, and the matchup felt about 55:45 Fox. Falco has very limited options against Fox, but what he does have is amazing against us. His Jabs actually clank with ours, but he tends to win any up front boxing match because his jabs have much higher priority and a larger hitbox (I think). We can actually gimp him, but one Fair from him means we also die off the ledge easy.

This doesn't help when Falco has a killing Bthrow and excellent spacing tools. It becomes hard to deal with a campy Falco in his shield at the edge when you are near death.

That being said, as usual, Fox runs circles around Falco, has far better kill setups and racks damage quicker. We punish his mistakes really hard, and I got the feeling from my matches yesterday that if you avoid the grab and getting tossed offstage, he has a real hard time landing any killing attack (Smashes, Bair, Uair) against us, and we can exploit that easily by playing elusively.

Feels pretty even, but Fox can force Falco into bad spots when Falco makes a mistake, and Fox is a better punisher. Definitely feels 55:45.