Fire Emblem: Awakening Mafia | GAME OVER: Not Equal To The Challenge

[FullMetalLynch]

st woke up,but xast we might pair with you tomorrow.
Reading in depth after breakfast

 

[FullMetalLynch]

FML, for the record, if I could pair with anyone in the game, it'd be you. I have a plan, and I think you're the best person to involve in my rhythm of my plan. There's a good chance I'll stay unpaired for today unless RR separates toDay which I think is highly unlikely. It's too bad you paired when you did, because I wouldn't mind even meatshielding for you today and switching back and forth for the next couple days.

Read my first few posts for more info.

We can talk about this tomorrow short of Ryu unpairing with us today and then you jumping on if i understand the mechanic right.
I'd like to get more time with ryu sicne he's all busy and stuff, but technically from a purely "information gained standpoint", i've got a pretty good feel that ryu's town, so in a sense I've gotten the maximum benefit out of pairing with him.

 

[FullMetalLynch]

But yeah i'm basically down with this xast. if nothing else i do want to converse with ya and sort my feels and your approach and other things,

 

[Raziek]

Catching up, Blazblue devoured my time. Sorry. ;_;

 

[Raziek]

Posting this chunk now, as it's starting to get a bit large. Starting on reading Page 8 after this post:

Really like Ruy 177.

Agree with Xastrn's 192/193 reasoning for everything except postcount analysis. Logic for shooting/separation is sound, but at the same time I don't agree on ruling out a quickshot where it's warranted.

Up to this post, does that mean you town-read everyone currently? How do you feel about Ryker?

The turd hasn't been around long enough for me to get any solid conversation in with him since all he does is play League when he's home. Once I get caught up reading here, gonna bounce some stuff off him in the PM and see how I feel about it after that.

WRT Town-reading everybody, definitely not. It just means I'm not the type of person to shoot at a null read without a damn good reason. My reads tend to develop fairly slowly. I'll be giving a more formal update on them by the end of this catch-up.

I think his current approach is text noob-scum and his first post bothers me. It seemed like he was just trying to get as much pointers in and I couldn't understand why he said some of the things he did. His post didn't particularly tell me anything and was overall useless.

This happens to Sokr in every game I've seen him in. Keep an eye on that feeling, but it's (to my knowledge) par for the course for him as either alignment.

For example, Potassium jumping to pair with Sokr bothers me. I'm not sure how I feel about Ryu jumping to pair with you but if this keeps up then we'll have the thread deserted because everyone is too busy sucking the tit of their partner. That's not what I want.

Correct me if I'm wrong, Kantripotassium, but you know Sokr IRL, do you not?

i'm feeling dabuz or pawndidater2 right now. Neither of their posts so far are filling with me confidence.

Doublevote: dabuz & pawndidater2


Skimmed the last few pages. I'll catch anything I missed later.

This post doesn't sit well with me. Kary comes out guns blazing with Soup, then disappears for a while, only to reappear and point fingers at people who are damn-near inactive? Sure, their posts aren't confidence-inspiring, but are they scum, or are you advocating shooting someone of low contribution toDay?

Those two are really easy targets to pick if you want to look like you're applying pressure without actually doing so, and without too much fear of retaliatory pressure.

<snip>
What do you think about such a self-preservative mindset from Ryker? IIRC it's very unusual for him to be so worried about his own life.

I actually like this post from Dabuz, as it's showing he's actually thinking about ****. That aside, to answer your question, Dabuz:

Self-preservation is ENTIRELY common from Ryker as either faction. His goal even when he's Town is usually to live so that he can get his scumspects lynched. I've hydra'd with him...... 4 or 5 times now, I think?

I also mentioned this earlier, but he also said it's as much about self-preservation as it is about his loose trigger finger. Most people here will remember Mario Party 2 Mafia, where Ryker drew "Adrenaline Dayvig" and shot Evil Eye within the first page or two of the game. Ryker's, as we know, a bit of a loose cannon, so I'm okay keeping him in my pocket for the moment.

Ryker never gets shot by scum unless he's on the right track anyway, since if he's Town and wrong, he tends to destroy Town violently by muscling through his lynch picks.

@Xastrn 245: While I don't completely agree with the conclusion of a Ruyscum read, I do follow the reasoning in your posts. WRT to the question you asked, Ruy has a very strong tendency to end up as either the cop or the doctor. If he's ACTUALLY crumbing that I'll be pretty salty. I'm hoping he's doing the smart thing and trying to draw an NK, though that rarely works because Ruy isn't a huge threat until later in the game.

 

[Raziek]

Ok guys it's fun question time!! yaaay :D

Raziek, who is most townie at the moment? You going to give Ryker that free pass into D2? My vote on Rake was really just prodding him a bit, seems he can't stop posting now though.

What exactly are you implying by this? "Free pass", specifically. I can switch Ryker into danger at any time if I feel like he's scum.

Soup's 329 is disgustingly verbose and defensive. There is a literal BRICK of text that's all super-defensive restatement of his reads.

@Raziek: Could I please have a short blurb describing what you think of the following players and why?

Xastrn and soup

And could I have your read on the following players, not requiring any write-ups?

pawn, Sokr, FML and Kary

Thanks.

Xastrn.... I think is Town. I'm kind of in the middle. I agree that his attack on Soup seems a bit opportunistic, but I also find myself consistently agreeing with his reasoning, which is typically how I read Town. At the moment, I would not support shooting him toDay.

Soup is null right now. I read Soup v Kary as TvT, but his responses to Xastrn are rubbing me the wrong way. I'm having trouble distinguishing whether it is a case of frustrated Town, or anxious scum. Leaning towards the former, but only slightl.

FML is Town.

The other three are still null for me, with Pawn as a slight scumlean and Sokr/Kary as slight townleans.

I like Kary's 363, his reads are lining up with mine reasonably well.

Dislike Kantrip's 366, can't find myself agreeing with the reasoning provided enough to conclude with a scumread. Xastrn is being a little reachy, but I don't see him pushing for the actual KILL on his scumreads yet, so is that necessarily a huge problem? I follow his thought process well, even if I don't agree with all of his conclusions.

Really like Kary 369, great insight on Xastrn's overall position in the game.

Need to look at Xastrn's big post, on a quick skim I'm not a fan of it.

 

[FullMetalLynch]

Raz feasibly town. Will go sherlock and watson on this with rake,but i like the thought process thus far

 

[FullMetalLynch]

Dibs on sherlock.

Ha eat it orbo

 

[FullMetalLynch]

Frack.
My feels.
Y u do dis to me?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Dibs on sherlock.

Ha eat it orbo

Kid I am the real Sherlock, working on post while in class atm.

 

[FullMetalLynch]

Kid I am the real Sherlock, working on post while in class atm.

 

[FullMetalLynch]

Kid I am the real Sherlock, working on post while in class atm.

http://giphy.com/gifs/lznZcY4Qzwa8U/

 

[Xastrn]

Good conversation since my last post. I'm busy from now until about 5 or 6pm EST so I can't do a real post, but perhaps Xatres is free? I'm not sure. I don't know his schedule today, and we don't live together anymore. (We're brothers. I housed him for a year, and now he's 600 miles away. Hydra-ing with someone you live with, btw, is AWESOME.)

I'll be on tonight. What's our deadline? Saturday? If so, I think we should probably shoot by noon on Saturday. I've seen last second lynches end in no lynch because people who said they'd be there to hammer disappear with RL johns. I'd rather avoid that sort of thing and have a hammer made by noon. Just my preference. My biggest target right now is pawn, but I'd be ok with soup or RR as well. Xatres is roughly in agreement with me, so any of those three can die toDay if nothing drastic changes.

 

[Raziek]

FML and Ruy, please stop with the pointless thread banter. You're paired up, just do it there.

Getting sick of reading a page to find half of the posts are garbage from one of you two.

Going to think on things and come back to this later tonight or tomorrow.

 

[Xivii]

Yes, I will shoot someone, given the right opportunity. Probably not D2. Maybe toDay. Maybe D3. I'd volunteer to be the hammer if I have to, but I like killing on D3 better. (hey, I get to live 2 days )



I would prefer consent from the town, as outlined in our proposed ruleset, but there has not been consent on those rules, so it is remotely possible that I could shoot someone if the situation demanded it.



I will most likely continue. I apologize (sort of) if you don't like it, but most people don't like that you've posted 112 times already, which is 4x the average. I don't mind it really, as should be clear. I LIKE when people post a lot.
You might not like it. Lots of us are doing things others don't like. I LIKE to post the post counts from time to time. I think it's information that people can use in some way. I won't clutter the thread with the counts, but I will keep count, living or dead, for the rest of the game.

xast can live

 

[Raziek]

What about that post brings you to that conclusion, Zen?

 

[Xastrn]

Going to try to make this post quick, as I still have a ton of work to do today.

For those viewing my case on Soup as opportunistic/stretching: I probably should have been more thorough in the way I presented things, but I was trying avoid writing a huge wall of text/quotes that would be difficult to read. The reason I was so hard on Soup's responses is that they fell perfectly in line with the scumminess I picked up on when I read him in ISO.

I'll go ahead and post my ISO-reads in spoiler tags for those interested. Keep in mind, this is long and written in shorthand, so it may not be terribly helpful for everyone (hence the spoiler tags).

[COLLAPSE="Soup in ISO"]1 - Pairs up with Colonel Stars
2 - Points out that support chats can help with reads
3 - Kary points out that support chats allow players to hide info from town, soup says he wants to see them talk without public pressure and reiterates good reads
4 - Partnering ensures that someone can't kill you directly, makes it sound obvious (EXCEPT SWITCHING/SEPARATING MAKES YOU VULNERABLE AND UNABLE TO HIDE LATER)
#30 - In response to our rules post, says spontaneous actions are more telling than orderly actions, claims that following guidelines give scum tools to hide (INCORRECT)... goes on to say it could work in theory, but no one would cooperate (PUTTING DOWN BOTH OPINIONS TO COVER HIMSELF LATER), then says "why bring this up at all, it's not like we haven't played mafia before" (SAYS OUR RULES ARE OBVIOUS, DESPITE DISAGREEING WITH THEM)
#31 - In response to Kary, mistakes how pairing up works, thinking it only lasts a single phase
WEIRD QUOTE: "Would it be suspicious for someone to use a mechanic given by the moderator to ensure their own safety if they're town? Townies want to live as much as Scum does. The idea is null."
#32 - Says he thinks FML is town and that he likes Kary's initiative to question (COMPLIMENTING PEOPLE WHO ATTACK HIM)... doesn't like us because we're "treating town like idiots" (POINTLESS MUDSLINGING BEFORE WE'VE HAD A CHANCE TO RESPOND), wants to see how Ryker/raz pairing plays out
#34 - Admits to getting pairing up wrong, says he doesn't believe anyone would use pairing up as a pure meat-shield, says he'd be willing to switch to attack depending on how Zen/Vandy react, says Kary is forgetting other mechanics like trading, wonders why no one else is using pairing up to get info (ENCOURAGES OTHERS TO PAIR UP, IF HE HAS SCUMMATES, THAT ALLOWS THEM TO GET MORE INFO PRIVATELY FROM TOWNIES), says the game is about survival and nothing stops scum from bull****ting a reason to kill some (EXCEPT, YOU KNOW, AN AGREED PROCESS BY TOWN), then turns around and says scum wouldn't do it because it would be suspicious (CONTRADICTING SELF, COVERING ALL BASES), says he has a townread on FML because it would be suspicious for him to hipfire Xastrn (SETTIGN UP FOR FML LYNCH IF HE FOLLOWS THROUGH ON THREATS), IMPORTANT QUOTE: "I'm going to protect myself by any means necessary, and frankly there's nothing you can do about it."
#35 - says Kary is missing out on important advantages to pairng up, won't say what they are
#39 - possible follow up, says he can switch to attacker depending on Zen/VANDY read (IF SCUM READ, SWITCHING WOULD BE STUPID, IF TOWN, WHY NOT CONTINUE TO PROTECT YOURSELF AND LET ZEN/VANDY DO KILLS?)


#42 - says arguing with Kary is pointless, points out he hasn't even started talking to Zen/vandy, asks why kary is so quick to pass judgment when she doesn't know what's going to happen (FAULTY LOGIC, AS KARY IS PLAYING AN IMPLICATION GAME, WHICH IS WHAT S/HE SHOULD BE DOING)
#43 - gets pissy and pushes kary to call him scum or shut up
#79 - Says he likes the hammerer idea, but doesn't like the payout... again, says it'll be beneficial but people wouldn't play along... says it'll cause more confusion than just saying you're going to shoot someone (DOESN'T EXPLAIN WHY THIS WOULD BE CONFUSING), says that for simplicity, if someone wants to shoot someone, just do it (ACTIVELY ENCOURAGES COWBOYING), says he doesn't mean hipfiring, but wants people to lay out a case and be willing to shoot, says he wants people to be responsible for actions instead of working around it because of system (FAULTY LOGIC: IF A TOWNIE HAS A BAD READ, THEY ARE HELD MORE RESPONSIBLE UNDER THESE RULES WHEN COWBOYING... SCUM CAN HIDE MORE EASILY WHEN THEY DON'T HAVE TO PULL THE TRIGGER)
#80 - says trading is a way to keep weapons out of scum hands (FAULTY LOGIC: SCUM WOULD NEVER TRADE WEAPONS AWAY), says he's cautious of a anonymous killing roll (OP IF THE POWER IS GIVEN TO SCUM, UNLESS THEY ARE UNABLE TO NK)


#81 - asks Colonel Stars if he would be willing to stay paired the entire game (IF HE'S SURE OF HIS OWN ABILITY TO AVOID SUSPICION, THIS COULD PROTECT HIM FROM KILLS INDEFINITELY)
#100 - says he doesn't understand Potato's town-read on Kary, says kary backed down on scum-read on soup and tried to latch on to supposed contradictions.... fuzzy wording, not really sure what he's saying
#101 - warns town to stop giving out claim information in thread, implies he said something about it already (HE DIDN'T, AT LEAST NOT DIRECLTY), acts like giving claim info before the flip is useless (FAULTY LOGIC: CLAIMS OFTEN CLEAR TOWN AND PREVENT MISLYNCHES), asks what possible benefit it could be to town to give out that kind of info (FAULTY LOGIC: TOWN NEEDS INFO TO ROOT OUT SCUM)


#161 - claims to be unable to read us, askes Ryker and Vand how our meta stacks up to our mechanical play (WE HAD OFFERED EVEN-TEMPERED RESPONSES TO CRITICISM, BUT HE WON'T BACK DOWN ON HIS PAST SCUM-READS, INSTEAD TURNS TO OTHER PLAYERS, DEFLECTING)
#163 - says our efforts are townie but method is bull**** (FUZZY READS), says he doesn't understand the data, says it all feels fabricated (IMPLYING WE ARE SCUM WITHOUT SAYING IT /// DATA ISN'T THAT HARD TO UNDERSTAND), points out that Colonel Stars is high on list and yet has FoS on him for "ungodly reasons," says we are looking too far into things but that he likes that we are making effort (AGAIN, FUZZING HIS READS TO NOT BE HELD RESPONSIBLE FOR MISLYNCH)
#167 - implies tracking post counts is "out there" (PRETTY STRAIGHT-FORWARD, ACTUALLY)
#168 - Potassium has asked for opinions on our reads, soup says he'll answer when he gets a response to his question (????) assuming the question is the one he asked Ryker and Vand, he's waiting to offer his opinion until others respond to him first (AVOIDING OWNING HIS READS ON US)
#195 - in response to dabuz saying he's never a heavy poster, soup says this is not true and that he's being more quiet than usual (DABUZ WAS LARGELY INACTIVE WHEN WALMART STARTED)
#196 - claims to be wanting to get a town read on Zen/Vandy because they could be an asset for him to bounce reads off of
#199 - says the thread is uninteresting, says our data is clogging thread with hard to read and analyze information, doesn't understand why we explain everything, says it "bothers" him (EMOTIONAL LANGUAGE - not necessarily a soup tell, but it's one of Dastrn's), again says he's not ready to accept our behavior as scummy (FUZZY READS), says he'd rather judge us on who we'd kill than what we say (AGAIN, POINTING TO A TACTIC THAT RELIES ON LYNCHING TOWNIES FOR KILLING TOWNIES), asks who I would kill


#202 - says he would kill Sokr if he had to kill someone right now (NO REASON STATED)
#206 - when asked, he says his approach is text noob-scum and that his first post "bothers him", says it seems like Sokr is trying to get as much pointer in and soup claimst o not understand why, says Sokr is posting useless info (DOESN'T CALL ANYTHING SCUMMY PER SE, AND CLAIMS CONFUSION AGAIN)
#207 - says he doesn't think Sokr and Pawndidater are aligned, as it would be ridiculous (probably right here, two inactive scum would be mad gay), says he doesn't like that everyone is jumping on the pairing bandwagon without a plan (DISCOURAGING PAIRING NOW, DESPITE ACTING LIKE IT WOULD BE DUMB FOR PEOPLE NOT TO EARLIER)
#212 - now says that he doesn't want everyone just talking in private chats, he wants conversation in the main thread (FURTHER CONTRADICTION)
#214 - asks Rake if he thinks scum would pair scum or pair townies (ANY ANSWER ENCOURAGES WIFOM)
#217 - says he trust people to fess up about what goes on in private chats (CONTRADICTING HIS PREVIOUS POST WORRYING ABOUT PEOPLE ONLY TALKING THERE AND NOT SHARING)
#223 - points out limited use of weapons and trading as benefit for pairing
#227 - accuses FML of being wishy-washy (actually true, this whole page is a mess)
#231 - says it is impossible for town to manage pairings, askes what FML has talked to ryu about -- FML says they discussed reads and soup in particular
#233 - asks FML if he has plans to change pairing -- FML says not right now, maybe later[/COLLAPSE]

Summary of trends spotted in Soup's posts:

1) Consistent use of wishy-washy language to cover all his bases (Rules response in #30, Kary read in #32, opinion on pairing as means to protect oneself from hipfires in #34, reliance on others for reads in #161, claiming "confusion" rather than scumminess for Sokr read in #206)
2) Some logically inconsistent arguments (reasons for not liking rules in #30, potentially switching with Zen in #39, criticism of Kary in #42, response to hammerer idea in #79, encouraging town not to share info in #101)
3) Contradictions (already covered)

I view all of these things as scum-tells.

1) Wishy-washy language protects a scummy player from criticism when townies get lynched and deprives town of information on reads in general.
2) Scum are often forced to use false logic, since they at some point have to deceive town with faulty reads.
3) For scum, most contradictions happen when scum forget what arguments they were using to manipulate town or slip up when things aren't going their way

In general, I have viewed Soup's play this game as scum trying to fly under the radar without lurking (hence the high post count). For someone who has posted as much as he has, he's offered little to no hard reads and consistently turned to other players to provide either information (see #161, or the long, drawn out conversations with FML) or actual kills (see pushing of both FML and Zen to quickfire).

 

[Xivii]

The fact that I outright told him twice that I'd shoot him if he kept up his moot post counts, yet he's still going through with it. Basically I see where Kary is coming from in that he doesn't care for his life and isn't trying to appease.

 

[Dabuz]

I'm sort of tiring of correcting everyone on this. From now on, I'll ignore posts that refer to my case against RR as activity-based.

Your case against RR is activity based :3

I will most likely continue. I apologize (sort of) if you don't like it, but most people don't like that you've posted 112 times already, which is 4x the average. I don't mind it really, as should be clear. I LIKE when people post a lot.
You might not like it. Lots of us are doing things others don't like. I LIKE to post the post counts from time to time. I think it's information that people can use in some way. I won't clutter the thread with the counts, but I will keep count, living or dead, for the rest of the game.

Content wise, what do you think about FML? I understand you like post counts, but in all honesty, I feel like if myself or anyone made one lots of one liners for the next 4 pages, you'd be town reading them through the roof.

I actually like this post from Dabuz, as it's showing he's actually thinking about ****. That aside, to answer your question, Dabuz:

Self-preservation is ENTIRELY common from Ryker as either faction. His goal even when he's Town is usually to live so that he can get his scumspects lynched. I've hydra'd with him...... 4 or 5 times now, I think?

I also mentioned this earlier, but he also said it's as much about self-preservation as it is about his loose trigger finger. Most people here will remember Mario Party 2 Mafia, where Ryker drew "Adrenaline Dayvig" and shot Evil Eye within the first page or two of the game. Ryker's, as we know, a bit of a loose cannon, so I'm okay keeping him in my pocket for the moment.

Ryker never gets shot by scum unless he's on the right track anyway, since if he's Town and wrong, he tends to destroy Town violently by muscling through his lynch picks.

Ok, so my meta on Ryker is completely wrong there? Great to know. After reading that game, I definitely like it if he stays in your back pocket.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

V/LA because I'm tired and sick and depressed and not in the mood for Mafia currently

 

[Xastrn]

Note on mechanics:

I may be saying the obvious yet again, but I worry that if information isn't stated in thread, it may go overlooked.

Dastrn and I are 95% sure that the way this game balances giving ALL players the weapons usable for daykills is that scum have to use weapons for NKs as well. This means with a 3 person scum team, they have only 3 guaranteed kills the whole game (provided they don't loot weapons they can use). Rather than worrying about players who can kill anonymously during the day, the [someone's Steel Sword broke] idea probably has to do with mafia NKs.

With that in mind, scum will likely look for ways to avoid making daykills in order to preserve NK status. Avoiding a mislynch D1 would be a huge boon to town.

 

[Xivii]

soup answer me in the private chat before you go vla son

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

id rather do it when im in a better mindset because im not in the mood to elaborate on it right now sorry

 

[Circus]

Ranmaru replaces pawndidater2!

Current Roster:
Kary
Raziek supported by: BRB Not Posting
Red Ryu supported by: FullMetalLynch
dabuz
Ranmaru
Xastrn
soup
Zen supported by: soup
Sokr supported by: Potassium

Actions Taken:
BRB Not Posting Pairs Up with Raziek at 5:23am EST, 10/27/13
soup Pairs Up with Colonel Stars Zen at 11:39am EST, 10/27/13
Potassium Pairs Up with Sokr at 8:30pm EST, 10/27/13
FullMetalLynch Pairs Up with Red Ryu at 2:29am EST, 10/28/13

 

[Xivii]

Alright so soup is scum.

 

[Xivii]

@mod: we are allowed to quote from pair ups correct?

 

[Circus]

@mod: we are allowed to quote from pair ups correct?

I've made no rules preventing you from quoting words in private conversations.

However, keep in mind that the standard unquotables still apply—anything from your role PM, anything that I've said to you privately, etc.

EDIT: And no screenshots. Just to be clear.

 

[Sokr]

If soup is scum then I'm looking at potassium as a possible partner.

 

[FullMetalLynch]

Why dat sokr

 

[Xivii]

Going to try to make this post quick, as I still have a ton of work to do today.

For those viewing my case on Soup as opportunistic/stretching: I probably should have been more thorough in the way I presented things, but I was trying avoid writing a huge wall of text/quotes that would be difficult to read. The reason I was so hard on Soup's responses is that they fell perfectly in line with the scumminess I picked up on when I read him in ISO.

I'll go ahead and post my ISO-reads in spoiler tags for those interested. Keep in mind, this is long and written in shorthand, so it may not be terribly helpful for everyone (hence the spoiler tags).

[COLLAPSE="Soup in ISO"]1 - Pairs up with Colonel Stars
2 - Points out that support chats can help with reads
3 - Kary points out that support chats allow players to hide info from town, soup says he wants to see them talk without public pressure and reiterates good reads
4 - Partnering ensures that someone can't kill you directly, makes it sound obvious (EXCEPT SWITCHING/SEPARATING MAKES YOU VULNERABLE AND UNABLE TO HIDE LATER)
#30 - In response to our rules post, says spontaneous actions are more telling than orderly actions, claims that following guidelines give scum tools to hide (INCORRECT)... goes on to say it could work in theory, but no one would cooperate (PUTTING DOWN BOTH OPINIONS TO COVER HIMSELF LATER), then says "why bring this up at all, it's not like we haven't played mafia before" (SAYS OUR RULES ARE OBVIOUS, DESPITE DISAGREEING WITH THEM)
#31 - In response to Kary, mistakes how pairing up works, thinking it only lasts a single phase
WEIRD QUOTE: "Would it be suspicious for someone to use a mechanic given by the moderator to ensure their own safety if they're town? Townies want to live as much as Scum does. The idea is null."
#32 - Says he thinks FML is town and that he likes Kary's initiative to question (COMPLIMENTING PEOPLE WHO ATTACK HIM)... doesn't like us because we're "treating town like idiots" (POINTLESS MUDSLINGING BEFORE WE'VE HAD A CHANCE TO RESPOND), wants to see how Ryker/raz pairing plays out
#34 - Admits to getting pairing up wrong, says he doesn't believe anyone would use pairing up as a pure meat-shield, says he'd be willing to switch to attack depending on how Zen/Vandy react, says Kary is forgetting other mechanics like trading, wonders why no one else is using pairing up to get info (ENCOURAGES OTHERS TO PAIR UP, IF HE HAS SCUMMATES, THAT ALLOWS THEM TO GET MORE INFO PRIVATELY FROM TOWNIES), says the game is about survival and nothing stops scum from bull****ting a reason to kill some (EXCEPT, YOU KNOW, AN AGREED PROCESS BY TOWN), then turns around and says scum wouldn't do it because it would be suspicious (CONTRADICTING SELF, COVERING ALL BASES), says he has a townread on FML because it would be suspicious for him to hipfire Xastrn (SETTIGN UP FOR FML LYNCH IF HE FOLLOWS THROUGH ON THREATS), IMPORTANT QUOTE: "I'm going to protect myself by any means necessary, and frankly there's nothing you can do about it."
#35 - says Kary is missing out on important advantages to pairng up, won't say what they are
#39 - possible follow up, says he can switch to attacker depending on Zen/VANDY read (IF SCUM READ, SWITCHING WOULD BE STUPID, IF TOWN, WHY NOT CONTINUE TO PROTECT YOURSELF AND LET ZEN/VANDY DO KILLS?)


#42 - says arguing with Kary is pointless, points out he hasn't even started talking to Zen/vandy, asks why kary is so quick to pass judgment when she doesn't know what's going to happen (FAULTY LOGIC, AS KARY IS PLAYING AN IMPLICATION GAME, WHICH IS WHAT S/HE SHOULD BE DOING)
#43 - gets pissy and pushes kary to call him scum or shut up
#79 - Says he likes the hammerer idea, but doesn't like the payout... again, says it'll be beneficial but people wouldn't play along... says it'll cause more confusion than just saying you're going to shoot someone (DOESN'T EXPLAIN WHY THIS WOULD BE CONFUSING), says that for simplicity, if someone wants to shoot someone, just do it (ACTIVELY ENCOURAGES COWBOYING), says he doesn't mean hipfiring, but wants people to lay out a case and be willing to shoot, says he wants people to be responsible for actions instead of working around it because of system (FAULTY LOGIC: IF A TOWNIE HAS A BAD READ, THEY ARE HELD MORE RESPONSIBLE UNDER THESE RULES WHEN COWBOYING... SCUM CAN HIDE MORE EASILY WHEN THEY DON'T HAVE TO PULL THE TRIGGER)
#80 - says trading is a way to keep weapons out of scum hands (FAULTY LOGIC: SCUM WOULD NEVER TRADE WEAPONS AWAY), says he's cautious of a anonymous killing roll (OP IF THE POWER IS GIVEN TO SCUM, UNLESS THEY ARE UNABLE TO NK)


#81 - asks Colonel Stars if he would be willing to stay paired the entire game (IF HE'S SURE OF HIS OWN ABILITY TO AVOID SUSPICION, THIS COULD PROTECT HIM FROM KILLS INDEFINITELY)
#100 - says he doesn't understand Potato's town-read on Kary, says kary backed down on scum-read on soup and tried to latch on to supposed contradictions.... fuzzy wording, not really sure what he's saying
#101 - warns town to stop giving out claim information in thread, implies he said something about it already (HE DIDN'T, AT LEAST NOT DIRECLTY), acts like giving claim info before the flip is useless (FAULTY LOGIC: CLAIMS OFTEN CLEAR TOWN AND PREVENT MISLYNCHES), asks what possible benefit it could be to town to give out that kind of info (FAULTY LOGIC: TOWN NEEDS INFO TO ROOT OUT SCUM)


#161 - claims to be unable to read us, askes Ryker and Vand how our meta stacks up to our mechanical play (WE HAD OFFERED EVEN-TEMPERED RESPONSES TO CRITICISM, BUT HE WON'T BACK DOWN ON HIS PAST SCUM-READS, INSTEAD TURNS TO OTHER PLAYERS, DEFLECTING)
#163 - says our efforts are townie but method is bull**** (FUZZY READS), says he doesn't understand the data, says it all feels fabricated (IMPLYING WE ARE SCUM WITHOUT SAYING IT /// DATA ISN'T THAT HARD TO UNDERSTAND), points out that Colonel Stars is high on list and yet has FoS on him for "ungodly reasons," says we are looking too far into things but that he likes that we are making effort (AGAIN, FUZZING HIS READS TO NOT BE HELD RESPONSIBLE FOR MISLYNCH)
#167 - implies tracking post counts is "out there" (PRETTY STRAIGHT-FORWARD, ACTUALLY)
#168 - Potassium has asked for opinions on our reads, soup says he'll answer when he gets a response to his question (????) assuming the question is the one he asked Ryker and Vand, he's waiting to offer his opinion until others respond to him first (AVOIDING OWNING HIS READS ON US)
#195 - in response to dabuz saying he's never a heavy poster, soup says this is not true and that he's being more quiet than usual (DABUZ WAS LARGELY INACTIVE WHEN WALMART STARTED)
#196 - claims to be wanting to get a town read on Zen/Vandy because they could be an asset for him to bounce reads off of
#199 - says the thread is uninteresting, says our data is clogging thread with hard to read and analyze information, doesn't understand why we explain everything, says it "bothers" him (EMOTIONAL LANGUAGE - not necessarily a soup tell, but it's one of Dastrn's), again says he's not ready to accept our behavior as scummy (FUZZY READS), says he'd rather judge us on who we'd kill than what we say (AGAIN, POINTING TO A TACTIC THAT RELIES ON LYNCHING TOWNIES FOR KILLING TOWNIES), asks who I would kill


#202 - says he would kill Sokr if he had to kill someone right now (NO REASON STATED)
#206 - when asked, he says his approach is text noob-scum and that his first post "bothers him", says it seems like Sokr is trying to get as much pointer in and soup claimst o not understand why, says Sokr is posting useless info (DOESN'T CALL ANYTHING SCUMMY PER SE, AND CLAIMS CONFUSION AGAIN)
#207 - says he doesn't think Sokr and Pawndidater are aligned, as it would be ridiculous (probably right here, two inactive scum would be mad gay), says he doesn't like that everyone is jumping on the pairing bandwagon without a plan (DISCOURAGING PAIRING NOW, DESPITE ACTING LIKE IT WOULD BE DUMB FOR PEOPLE NOT TO EARLIER)
#212 - now says that he doesn't want everyone just talking in private chats, he wants conversation in the main thread (FURTHER CONTRADICTION)
#214 - asks Rake if he thinks scum would pair scum or pair townies (ANY ANSWER ENCOURAGES WIFOM)
#217 - says he trust people to fess up about what goes on in private chats (CONTRADICTING HIS PREVIOUS POST WORRYING ABOUT PEOPLE ONLY TALKING THERE AND NOT SHARING)
#223 - points out limited use of weapons and trading as benefit for pairing
#227 - accuses FML of being wishy-washy (actually true, this whole page is a mess)
#231 - says it is impossible for town to manage pairings, askes what FML has talked to ryu about -- FML says they discussed reads and soup in particular
#233 - asks FML if he has plans to change pairing -- FML says not right now, maybe later[/COLLAPSE]

Summary of trends spotted in Soup's posts:

1) Consistent use of wishy-washy language to cover all his bases (Rules response in #30, Kary read in #32, opinion on pairing as means to protect oneself from hipfires in #34, reliance on others for reads in #161, claiming "confusion" rather than scumminess for Sokr read in #206)
2) Some logically inconsistent arguments (reasons for not liking rules in #30, potentially switching with Zen in #39, criticism of Kary in #42, response to hammerer idea in #79, encouraging town not to share info in #101)
3) Contradictions (already covered)

I view all of these things as scum-tells.

1) Wishy-washy language protects a scummy player from criticism when townies get lynched and deprives town of information on reads in general.
2) Scum are often forced to use false logic, since they at some point have to deceive town with faulty reads.
3) For scum, most contradictions happen when scum forget what arguments they were using to manipulate town or slip up when things aren't going their way

In general, I have viewed Soup's play this game as scum trying to fly under the radar without lurking (hence the high post count). For someone who has posted as much as he has, he's offered little to no hard reads and consistently turned to other players to provide either information (see #161, or the long, drawn out conversations with FML) or actual kills (see pushing of both FML and Zen to quickfire).

You are exactly right. Everything you are saying here is right. soup has been playing in such an appeasing way. That long defense post he responded to you with with so...tip-toey. And by that I mean he is being careful to tread lightly. And you're very much right about the contradiction in thought pattern.

Also I can't seem to avoid the use of meta. But I'm in the 90% tile of surety that soup is scum. His play this game is classic mafia soup, basically making sure not to piss anyone off. If you know soup, this is so uncharacteristic of him. Read any one game with soup and you'll know what I mean. Soup is playing here exactly like he did as I partnered with him in his newbie, and how he did in the last BiM! (I correctly called him out there as well).

soup is clearly making an effort here to try and say the right things. And I'm pretty sure his sudden vla is to think over his response to me just asking in the private chat if he can kill. Which apparently he can't based on his response in the thread:

soup answer me in the private chat before you go vla son

[QUOTEsoup]id rather do it when im in a better mindset because im not in the mood to elaborate on it right now sorry
[/QUOTE]Obviously he'd have no reason to answer this way if the answer was simply yes.

 

[Xivii]

If soup is scum then I'm looking at potassium as a possible partner.

Exactly my next thought!

http://smashboards.com/threads/fire...ck-a-god-and-pray.341650/page-9#post-15946073

Chainsaw to da maximum

 

[Xivii]

EBWOP:

soup answer me in the private chat before you go vla son

id rather do it when im in a better mindset because im not in the mood to elaborate on it right now sorry

Obviously he'd have no reason to answer this way if the answer was simply yes.

 

[FullMetalLynch]

I like zen and xatres posts. But i thought there were private communication posts involved?

 

[FullMetalLynch]

mod-what is the deadline?[\b]

 

[Circus]

Deadline is Sunday, November 3rd, at 1:00am EST.

 

[Kantrip]

Going to look over Xastrn's new soup case after I carve pumpkins.

 

[Xivii]

I was just making sure it was OK to post our conversation thus far:

Spoiler

Kary/Potassium/Xatres

tell me your reads on them

hiya Soup . will do when i've read up (vandy)

Vandy I guess you'll take up the purple? And I'll use white? I forgot we were going to distinguish ourselves and haven't been signing.

@ soup: I know you don't like Kary, but I like him so far. I like the fact that he was able to see where you were coming from after the back and forth. And it seems to me like he is actually starting to think about the game after realizing that it's not just going to be like every other game.

Kantrip As far as what he's posted he's alright for now.




Xatres I haven't like since he started posting. Will probably end up killing him.

Alright fully caught up. Really don't like Xastres. His placing of Sokr in the town pile while putting Kanrtip in the "inactive" pile is complete BS along with his FoS on me for "leaving the possibility open" when I clearly said to stop talking about it.

soup tell me your take on kantrip. I never read him all that well, but his thoughts have been seeming to align with mine as I was reading through.

Kantrip is known for posturing earlier on regardless of alignment. His wall-posts are null and what I look for is when he begins to push to something. I'm leaving him alone for now and he isn't for interest. I think Xatres while highly mechanical and weird, could be town. I need to know more about them before I make that call but a part of me feels they wouldn't try this hard if they were scum. I could be completely wrong in this regard so I want more insight as to how they've played before in the past. It seems to me that they wouldn't change their meta so I'm sure some examples would help me. I could look up their games but eh, I'm sure Vandy/Ryker could tell me. I didn't care for Sokr's opening post and it read to me as Noob-scum trying to get as much pointers in their first post regardless if it would be helpful for not. It kind of reminds of Orbo's scum play where he felt the need to ask pointless questions and everything without actually following up on it. I'm not sure what Ryu's deal is with claiming PR in-thread, but I don't like it. I actually don't like Ryu's approach currently and he's someone I suspect too. I feel Rake is being town rake and then I highly agree with Raziek so far. Feel free to post these conversations at any-time in thread. You're practically an extension of a hydra if you're willing to agree with it.

If you go through killing Xatres, are you considering his mates? Basically everyone has stated dislike on Xatres in-thread and he's kinda put himself in a bad spot.

I feel like Xastern is intentionally cluttering the thread with stuff that doesn't matter. Reminds me of OS scum. Vandy is replacing out so it looks like it's just me and you.

As for mates, Ruy is a possibility. That will come apparent later if so. dabuz is of interest. Sokr and Xastres would be glaringly obvious: http://smashboards.com/threads/fire...ck-a-god-and-pray.341650/page-4#post-15941060




In this post, Sokr had posted just once before. Yet Xas put him as strong town yet put kantrip and dabuz as inactives because of their post counts. At the time not only did Kantrip have a higher post count (whih xas was using as his basis) but he had more content in his post. Xas has since stated that he was doing it as a test, but it doesn't make sense at all why he has Sokr where he is.

I don't have any plans to kill anyone today. I think Rake should put his money where his mouth is and shoot Pawn.

Is there anyone you would kill today, or do you want to save your shot?

I might change my mind on killing; how solid are you on the possibility of Sokr/Xatres team?

Need to catch up. I'll let you know in a bit.

soup are you familiar with this game? (FE:A)

Yes. Are you?

I read through the wiki pretty much all during n0. Just read the page where you and fml were talking about the possibility of scum pairing up. I think it's actually a good possibility. Looking through some of the skills on the wiki I think that some abilities will have to do with pairing up. Likely with increasing skills ability or attacks or protection. Also I think it's safe to assume that Grima and the Avatar are in the game. I'm thinking of the possibility of Grima needing to pair up with the Avatar (recruit or control) seeing as they are controlled in the game. What do you think? I'm only speculating over this because it means we need to be looking more closely behind the motivations for why some people are pairing up. If town gets to happy-go-lucky it could be to scum's advantage.

Ehhh. I don't wanna go into it. My Unit is a protagonist for the most part but It's possible jerkus incoporated something like that. I agree completely on the idea of looking into motivations like that however. What do you think of current pairings based on this?

Really don't understand Ryker's pairing. There's certainly behind more than what he's saying.

I don't buy that he'd think me or rake would spontaneously shoot him. I don't expect the absent and shielded game he is playing right now.

#272 xaster's addressing of pawn looks forced to me compared to the way he has been addressing other players.

I might be wrong on them, and you might be right about that Sokr/Xas deal. Still think it holds up?

Yep.




Are you intentionally playing differently?

I'm playing differently?

You're being really calm like you were holding back in your posts against Xastern.

I guess I've just learned to calm down? I haven't noticed any differences.

Hmm

Question: Did you pair with me right away because you yourself can't kill?

 

[FullMetalLynch]

Shot should be made by Saturday around noon then just to be safe. Give ourselves a twelve hour buffer then

 

[FullMetalLynch]

Interesting ninja.

 

[Xivii]

Things to note:
1. Seemed like soup has been edging me the whole time to shoot Xastrn while at the same time disagreeing with the read. He asked me multiple time if I planned on shooting Xastrn. And once asked me if I planned on shooting "anyone" when he knew that Xastrn was my biggest dislike. I feel like he was subtly trying to push me the whole time while remaining wishy-washy on Xastern himself.

2. Subtly requested that we act as a hydra before he even had the chance to read me?

3. Remaining neutral pretty much about everyone! He's claimed null (nulltown for xas) on both Xastrn and Pawn while edging for them to be shot. And not having any scum reads on anyone at all ever. In thread he has been wishy washy on every player including myself lol.