Fire Emblem: Awakening Mafia | GAME OVER: Not Equal To The Challenge

[FullMetalLynch]

Who is pawndidator2? Not in original list, and hasn't posted yet. I don't remember seeing him/her added as a replacement either.

Is BRB Not Posting Ryker's hydra? Who's the other head?

Newer player, if he's scum i'll know by like....10 posts in so.

/place your bets now

 

[Sokr]

Ok, that took a while to catch up.

I'm liking Kary, especially in his debate with Rake. Wasn't a big fan of how him and Soup bickered down to the point of pointlessness, but I'm willing to pin that down as enthusiasm.

Slight town read on Rake. Disagreeing with Kary isn't a scum thing to do.

Not really liking Xastrn atm. That excuse about thinking in boxes wasn't good enough for me. If you really did think over the rules you proposed for 20 minutes, then the fact that you couldn't find the flaws in it between the two of you reeks to me of scum trying hide behind those rules and big posts.

Lots of good points here. We agree that if a townie panics and shoots, he is acting contrary to our goal of revealing information and making good kills the following days. That player is either scum or dumb. Not worth keeping around, and will likely be killed the following day as they are a liability at best.

Don't like this thinking at all. You're proposing to waste a day just on policy and ignorance?

Xastrn has a very mechanical approach to this game and I don't like it. I really don't like that he has a FoS on Rake for being honest that he'll take a more active approach in shooting his scumreads. This is honesty I expect and appreciate from Rake, and something that players that don't know him should still be able to understand as a good thing. However, since he's disagreeing with Xastrn's communist regime, he gets a FoS.

My opinion on the rules are that they are not going to happen. I want discussion before shots, and I like the idea of getting someone to hammer, but we are not going to be able to stop people from doing what they want, and we shouldn't have to. That kind of accountability is what helps us read players.

I like this and completely agree with it. But you're still null to me.

@Red Ryu and Rake, let's try and let everyone know what the hell you're talking about. It makes things easier for town.

@Xastrn, after all the negative feedback you've received, do you still think a rigid set of rules is ideal for town? You obviously disagree with Rake's shoot first, explain later approach, but what do you think of Potassium's proposal of a happy medium? Also, any views on players excluding your FoS on Rake?

 

[FullMetalLynch]

orbo reading.

 

[Xastrn]

Kary​

27​

soup​

20​

FullMetalLynch​

15​

Raziek​

14​

Colonel Stars​

10​

Red Ryu​

9​

Xastrn​

9​

Potassium​

3​

dabuz​

2​

BRB Not Posting​

0​

pawndidater2​

0​

Sokr​

0​

 

[FullMetalLynch]

@Red Ryu and Rake, let's try and let everyone know what the hell you're talking about. It makes things easier for town.

@Xastrn, after all the negative feedback you've received, do you still think a rigid set of rules is ideal for town? You obviously disagree with Rake's shoot first, explain later approach, but what do you think of Potassium's proposal of a happy medium? Also, any views on players excluding your FoS on Rake?

NO THAT'D BE DANGEROUS SOKR WHAT'RE YOU DOING YOU'LL DESTROY US ALL

 

[Kantrip]

I don't understand how you town-read Kary, Potato. I think Kary backed out of his claims against me and tried latching on about an aforementioned contradiction even though I didn't even do so at all. I think he was pushing an issue that didn't need to be pushed, and I don't like the fact he was acting coy to all the other ideas I presented to try and reason with him. Raziek basically has the same read I do with him currently.

I quoted everything in your conversation and started going through it a post at a time and then lost it all. I'll try again tomorrow for ya.

I like soup.

I like ryu because death bear.

Raz is canadian so he's probably cool.

kary never does sexy things for me anymore.

Sokr needs to post or die.

Kantrip: u town ?

Yes, and I'll get you Sokr's alignment by the end of the Day.

 

[Xastrn]

That was a post count up to #120. I'll do my best to keep this updated.

I'm not personally bothered by a few scumreads on me right now. It's early, and the only reads that I can recall are based on the proposed rule system that Xatres and I put together pregame.
I believe that everything we proposed was pro-town, and I explained my rationale in #66. You are welcome to read that over again if you like.

I'm not surprised to have a little heat on us this early. We anticipated some blowback from our rule proposal, and had no expectation of EVERYONE agreeing. I do think there are both town and scum mixed in with the dissent, but I don't have any hard reads on anyone in particular, with just a slight scum lean for FullMetalLynch.

I think soup vs kary at the beginning was likely TvT.

Colonel Stars seems useless thus far. His dissent on the rules was so non-challenging. It felt like he was going out of his way to be especially kind about it, even though the rules themselves are pro-town. For example:

Xastern it's not going to work. This is somewhat different than past BiM's but fundamentally it's the same. Those rules have never worked and they never will. Debating over it is just going to give scum a chance to feign contribution.

@Xas: http://www.smashboards.com/threads/bad-idea-mafia-4-game-over-scum-wins.299020/

Please skim through this. It's not going to work. Your same rules come up in Every Single BiM game. In that game above, the biggest advocates for the system were scum themselves along with myself. You're not going to get any tells from someone's view on it.

I like that other people challenged the proposition with specific ideas about how scum could manipulate the system to still follow the rules and come out ahead, particularly weapon pickups and whatnot, which is stuff we had neglected to take into account in our pre-game. I will say that this is a very small scum advantage if it even is one, and is negligible compared to the rest of the entire system.

But with Colonel Stars, it seemed like he was limiting his dissent so that it didn't seem anti town, in case other players supported the ideas. He was an early dissenter compared to most of you, and he left himself the out that The rules haven't worked, but the implication was that he COULD support them, whether he was town or scum, since he claims to have done so specifically.

FOS: Colonel Stars

 

[Xastrn]

@Sokr, get active buddy. I'm assuming you had a good reason for being inactive for the first 23 hours or so of the game. You mind throwing the reason our way? No judgment. RL is RL. I'm just always curious when people are missing, and we're starting to get some good stuff.

You asked about Potassium's happy medium. I'm not opposed to it, and I'm not rigidly stuck on our proposal either. We worded it strongly on purpose: to get reactions. And reactions we got.

You didn't like my comment that wild shooting under pressure is scum or dumb. I believe it is anti-town behavior because of raw numbers. We'd have a 60% chance of hitting town if there were 4 scum/indy. 75% chance with just 3 scum. That's bad for us. We'd likely lose town, then lose town on NK, and then we're stuck deciding if the wild shooter was scum trying to get out of pressure and hit townie, or if wild shooter was scum bussing, or if wild shooter was dumb town taking a risk that's stacked against them. The only good option is the wild shooter was SO confident in their read that they thought it was more like 80% likely to hit scum. Even then, we lose town N1, and we are suspicious of wild shooter anyways and D2 we're stuck on that player...

We can disagree on this. I play with my gut plenty, but I find it easier to play with my gut by making a case, rather than just killing someone with no hard information, by myself, without a vote.

 

[Xastrn]

Potassium and dabuz are almost completely inactive.
4 posts for Potassium.
2 posts for dabuz.

What can we do with inactives? The worst games I've ever played ended with inactives still sitting around jacking off instead of playing ball with the rest of us. I have a policy of voting for my pal Ignatius in any game I play with him because he is ALWAYS inactive and coasts, town or scum. I'm putting up with that.
It's just one day so far, so it's ok right now. But we sure as hell better have some action from these 2 tomorrow, or at the very least a really good reason for sitting out of the game for 48 hours by then.



Sokr
kary
soup

Potassium
dabuz

FullMetalLynch
Colonel Stars

 

[Xastrn]

EBWOP

Sorry for multiple posts.

I meant to include pawndidater2 in my inactive list. Sorry.

Sokr
kary
soup

Potassium
pawndidater2
dabuz

FullMetalLynch
Colonel Stars

 

[Sokr]

@Xastrn
My absence comes down to homework and yard work.
So what I'm getting from you is that despite how confident someone may be on their read, shots should not be fired withou full discussion by everyone? Do you not think that by placing rules such as anyone who shoots then explains is scum or dumb provides something for scum to hide behind?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Me thinks Rake Town thus far.

Considering pairing atm.

 

[FullMetalLynch]

Xatres half of the hydra here. I'll be posting in green.



This is definitely on odd setup, but I think once we get the rhythm down it'll be fun to play out, even with all the weird rules.

FoS: Dastrn (I don't trust that guy)

You guys gonna play this like you were in oddworld?All obvtown and ****?

I think people are forgetting that Pairing Up doesn't just mean a meat-shield for yourself, it also means private communication and being able to keep someone in check. Guess the reason why I just paired with the Zen/Vandy hydea.

Are you trying to keep zen in check?

You are not entitled to shoot from the hip.



I'm not suggesting that we sit around. I think we should treat toDay like any other Day, and look for scum. If we find that a majority of people want rid of the same player, then all the better for it. At the very least there needs to be a discussion, and some kind of consensus reached. Letting people just shoot whoever is a recipe for trouble.

What happens if someone does?
What do we do to reach a consensus, and how do we pressure them this game? Everything is just a threat till someone pulls a trigger

How so Ryker isn't preserving himself? The way I see it, he's now completely untouchable until you die, or you decide to put him in the firing line. You're bodyguarding him, whether that's your intention or not. Now, it's true that whenever you want, you could switch or separate. But even if you decide to do that, it still takes your action.

And then there's the question of what Ryker wants to say to you that he can't say in the thread.

Think about who you are dealing with there.
Ryker gives literally no ****s about people having a problem with how he does things. Why does scum ryker hop right behind someone? If it's for protection, why not jump in front of someone he thinks has a solid chance of being scum/not shot?

No. I think the idea of spontaneous action is more telling than orderly action. If we follow your guideline we are only giving scum the tools to blend in further. Shooting is a means of reading someone and their intentions, and if you filter it as such, it will be harder to read them. It's true that this could work in theory, but I doubt you will get people to cooperate. More importantly, I don't understand why you feel the need to bring about such rules treating us like we haven't played a game of mafia or BiM before.

+1

Ultimately, these rules are designed to remove the possibility of "accidental" deaths and prevent the scum from running gambits.

Town needs to agree to these rules right now before the Day continues.

Define gambits. what can scum pull this game that we can't just see as being cleared up by the mod?
Why do we need to agree with them in lieu of discussing them?

 

[FullMetalLynch]

page 2, soup v kary leans town on both side, unsure on raz and xast

 

[FullMetalLynch]

Xatres here. Dastrn and I haven't had a chance to talk through reads, so I'm going to post some general responses for now.

As far as our proposed ruleset goes, it's not that much different than how a town is run in a regular game of mafia. Not so much communism as democratic rule, which is kind of what Day phases are designed around to begin with. The danger I see with this setup is that townies will be more tempted to look after only their own interests, rather than the interests of town as a whole. Having an established set of rules for town prevents people from playing cowboy and fuzzing up reads and allowing scum to hide in the confusion.

I'd say our best bet is to at least agree on some kind of ruleset for town to follow, preferably one that minimizes potential scum gambits as much as possible. It doesn't HAVE to be our rules, we just happen to think those will be most effective.

I did take a chance to look at the results of previous BIM games played here, and it seems to split pretty evenly between town and scum. Without a closer look I couldn't say what tactics/decisions/players were the most influential in those outcomes, but it at least shows that it's not an impossible setup for town to win.

You keep saying scum gambits should be minimized without saying why. Surely just giving some examples of what you mean would help out? You're likely not just talking about fakeshooting, as that can be used by both sides.

 

[FullMetalLynch]

I quoted everything in your conversation and started going through it a post at a time and then lost it all. I'll try again tomorrow for ya.

Yes, and I'll get you Sokr's alignment by the end of the Day.

is this a promise?

 

[Xastrn]

@Xastrn
My absence comes down to homework and yard work.
So what I'm getting from you is that despite how confident someone may be on their read, shots should not be fired withou full discussion by everyone? Do you not think that by placing rules such as anyone who shoots then explains is scum or dumb provides something for scum to hide behind?

RL Johns are allowed. Thanks for humoring me with information that is none of my business anyways.
Yes, I feel that firing a shot without full discussion is more likely than not to be anti-town behavior. This is in NO way an absolute. It is simply a very, very dangerous and aggressive play, and we don't like it. With that said, we have not played BiM before, and we CAN imagine scenarios in which this sort of kill is a good idea.

Explain your final question please. I don't think I understand what you're getting at.

You guys gonna play this like you were in oddworld?All obvtown and ****?

If I remember that game correctly, we kicked ass HARD in that game. If I remember, J was doctor and all the heat was on him D1 and we swung the vote and hit scum 2 days in a row based primarily on our play, and then we won MVP. Am I remembering that game correctly? If so, YES we are planning on playing this game obvtown and ****. Ass kicking is what we do.

Define gambits. what can scum pull this game that we can't just see as being cleared up by the mod?
Why do we need to agree with them in lieu of discussing them?

I'll let Xatres address this, since it was his comment. I'm guessing he'll post mid-morning (EST) and be relatively active all day tomorrow.

 

[FullMetalLynch]

Fair enough.
oddworld was the swiss mayling other dude scumteam where you and cello split mvp.

 

[Kantrip]

Potassium and dabuz are almost completely inactive.
4 posts for Potassium.
2 posts for dabuz.

What can we do with inactives? The worst games I've ever played ended with inactives still sitting around jacking off instead of playing ball with the rest of us. I have a policy of voting for my pal Ignatius in any game I play with him because he is ALWAYS inactive and coasts, town or scum. I'm putting up with that.
It's just one day so far, so it's ok right now. But we sure as hell better have some action from these 2 tomorrow, or at the very least a really good reason for sitting out of the game for 48 hours by then.



Sokr
kary
soup

Potassium
dabuz

FullMetalLynch
Colonel Stars

Your obsession with activity is already proving overzealous. You let the game go on for 24 hours and you already start complaining about people sitting on their hands? I am not an inactive player by any stretch of the word, and I'm certainly not inactive in this game. Why don't you take a moment to read my posts again? I'm providing content and I'm here. What makes me inactive again?

 

[Kantrip]

You're going to need to explain why 1-post Sokr was a solid town while I was in the "inactive pile."

 

[Kantrip]

is this a promise?

Unless he's drastically changed how he approaches this game, yes.

 

[Xastrn]

I'm looking at Red Ryu's activity. He's posted 10 times:
89
90
91
96
98
99
105
106
110
132

Every single post is 2 lines or shorter, and every single post is pretty much fluff. By post count, his contribution is exactly average (10.16666 at this moment), but by word count, he's falling incredibly short. He's giving the impression of being around here and there a lot, and making lots of tiny posts in bunches to look active, but in reality he's hiding in the background. In my opinion, barely active is a better place to hide than any in a scum that needs to survive D1.

IGMEOY Red Ryu
Give us CONTENT and OPINION, not just one liners and fluff. You're on my scum list right now.

*****************************

Xastrn
Sokr
kary
soup

Raziek
Potassium
dabuz

BRB Not Posting
FullMetalLynch
Pawndidater2
Colonel Stars

Red Ryu

****************************

For the record, I doubt I'll keep posting such full lists past our first Kill. I look forward to when the game is over, to look at this list and compare my earliest reads to the end.

 

[Kantrip]

That post managed to be even more forced and mechanical than when you were trying to make rules.

 

[FullMetalLynch]

dislike that ryu schtick and you can **** it on outta hurr. Ryu always plays that way.

 

[FullMetalLynch]

Pair Up:Ryu
Heavily discussed with rake right here.

 

[Sokr]

You're going to need to explain why 1-post Sokr was a solid town while I was in the "inactive pile."

I was wondering that myself. I thought he was just waiting for my excuse.

Like Potassium said Xatres, let's give it a RL day or two before we start worrying about activity. This desperate behaviour is only digging yourself deeper in my books. You are my strongest scum read.

 

[FullMetalLynch]

strongest implies there's another scumread to compare it to sokr?

 

[Xastrn]

Your obsession with activity is already proving overzealous. You let the game go on for 24 hours and you already start complaining about people sitting on their hands? I am not an inactive player by any stretch of the word, and I'm certainly not inactive in this game. Why don't you take a moment to read my posts again? I'm providing content and I'm here. What makes me inactive again?

I obsess about activity because inactivity gives scum wins constantly. You'll notice in our stats that scum wins somewhere around 4 or 5 % more games in D-Games than Town. I believe that this is most likely due to inactivity being tolerated because people trust their reads rather than lynching inactives. It could be mods designing games slightly poorly, but we've got pretty good mods.

You had 4 posts at the time of my listing you as inactive, putting you near the very bottom of activity. That's an easy enough thing for me to call inactive.

My town read on Sokr is because I felt like his one post gave me a town-read. Simple as that.

It's day 1. None of these reads are terribly accurate. Especially town reads. Scum reads might be more likely to be accurate, but that depends on how the game plays out.

You'll notice I have you in my null reads area in my list, not in my scum list, or near-scum list. You're fine for now. Just be active. And by active, I don't mean 3 posts in a row real quick to get your count up. :/ All 3 of those posts could have very easily been multi-quoted.

I'm curious how the post- count will look by the time we hit page 10 at 40ppp. I'm anticipating that we will be near the top, although I have a job interview sometime this week for a C# development job and I need to spend a lot of time getting my skills sharp, since it's been about 2 years since I've spent a significant amount of time coding. I might slow down significantly if I am offered the job. Time will tell.

Sokr and Potassium: if you had to guess right now on the spot, who will be the top 3 posters by post count, and who will be the bottom 3?

 

[FullMetalLynch]

why does that last one matter at all for alignments? there are people at both endsof the scale in dgames regardless of alignment

 

[Xastrn]

dislike that ryu schtick and you can **** it on outta hurr. Ryu always plays that way.

@Red Ryu, is this true? Do you always play this way? Do you see it as a terribly useful way to contribute to town? Are you more active when you play town or scum?
I think I've played with Red Ryu before, but it's been 2 or 3 years since my last game, so I'm really not sure what meta has developed with you all that play dozens of these games.
@FullMetalLynch What makes you come to Red Ryu's defense? Do you find his play thus far in this game to be pro-town, or null, or leaning scum? I'd like your read on him.

 

[Xastrn]

why does that last one matter at all for alignments? there are people at both endsof the scale in dgames regardless of alignment

It's a question. Questions are asked. The reactions get conversations going.
You seem to be against information coming out, or questions being asked, particularly from me. Is there a reason for this, or am I misreading you?

 

[Kantrip]

You're not getting it. You lumped me in the inactive pile off of post count alone, completely ignoring the content of my posts (at the time, all of my posts were large walls of multiquotes containing content relevant to the entire page I addressed at once). It was nothing about being a null read, because you specifically referred to my low number of posts and how that correlated to an "inactivity problem."

"Potassium and dabuz are almost completely inactive.
4 posts for Potassium.
2 posts for dabuz."

You failed to address the 3 players who, at the time of you posting post counts, had 0 posts a piece. Then you added pawn, removing one of those. Ryker and Gova don't have their hydra ready, so they can be ignored too.

This still doesn't tell me why you didn't list Sokr as an inactive. It's great that you townread him immediately, but that doesn't make him an active contributor to the thread.

 

[Kantrip]

Colonel Stars seems useless thus far. His dissent on the rules was so non-challenging. It felt like he was going out of his way to be especially kind about it, even though the rules themselves are pro-town. For example:



I like that other people challenged the proposition with specific ideas about how scum could manipulate the system to still follow the rules and come out ahead, particularly weapon pickups and whatnot, which is stuff we had neglected to take into account in our pre-game. I will say that this is a very small scum advantage if it even is one, and is negligible compared to the rest of the entire system.

But with Colonel Stars, it seemed like he was limiting his dissent so that it didn't seem anti town, in case other players supported the ideas. He was an early dissenter compared to most of you, and he left himself the out that The rules haven't worked, but the implication was that he COULD support them, whether he was town or scum, since he claims to have done so specifically.

FOS: Colonel Stars

This is a really big reach. Reading over what Zen had to say regarding your plan, I don't see what you refer to as "limiting his dissent." What I see is him telling you it's a bad idea and then referring you to past BiM games so you could see how it has never worked before. What you're saying about him here... makes no sense.

Then we have your Ruy read, which we've already established is retardedly mechanical and forced. It looks even worse than your super structured rules post, and that already gave you a bunch of instant-scumreads from people.

 

[Sokr]

strongest implies there's another scumread to compare it to sokr?

Correct. Colonel rubs me the wrong way. His posts were empty and struck me as posting for the sake of posting.

@Xastrn, a better question: do I care? All I have to go off is the current rate. So kary, soup and fml. But I don't think that'll be true. I haven't the faintest clue.

 

[Kantrip]

Oh and Xastrn, Rake, Kary and I will probably have high post counts. Not that it matters in any way whatsoever. We're natural heavy posters.

 

[FullMetalLynch]

@Red Ryu, is this true? Do you always play this way? Do you see it as a terribly useful way to contribute to town? Are you more active when you play town or scum?
I think I've played with Red Ryu before, but it's been 2 or 3 years since my last game, so I'm really not sure what meta has developed with you all that play dozens of these games.
@FullMetalLynch What makes you come to Red Ryu's defense? Do you find his play thus far in this game to be pro-town, or null, or leaning scum? I'd like your read on him.

I said it because i didn't want you getting preconcieved notions that this was indicative of ryu being scummy.
It's leaning town on a gut vibe from myself and rake saying he's likely town. The fact he has this aloof nature to him bodes well.

It's a question. Questions are asked. The reactions get conversations going.
You seem to be against information coming out, or questions being asked, particularly from me. Is there a reason for this, or am I misreading you?

The question isn't indicative of alignment, because the results are null. questions are good, but there's no way those predictions do anything except help your inactive tirade to be focused

 

[FullMetalLynch]

Oh and Xastrn, Rake, Kary and I will probably have high post counts. Not that it matters in any way whatsoever. We're natural heavy posters.

tfw everyone refers to the hydra as rake.
every
damn
time

 

[Xastrn]

You're not getting it. You lumped me in the inactive pile off of post count alone, completely ignoring the content of my posts (at the time, all of my posts were large walls of multiquotes containing content relevant to the entire page I addressed at once). It was nothing about being a null read, because you specifically referred to my low number of posts and how that correlated to an "inactivity problem."

"Potassium and dabuz are almost completely inactive.
4 posts for Potassium.
2 posts for dabuz."

You failed to address the 3 players who, at the time of you posting post counts, had 0 posts a piece. Then you added pawn, removing one of those. Ryker and Gova don't have their hydra ready, so they can be ignored too.

This still doesn't tell me why you didn't list Sokr as an inactive. It's great that you townread him immediately, but that doesn't make him an active contributor to the thread.

You're not wrong in any of this. I don't disagree at all. I was applying my posts with discrimination with the intent of getting reactions from the players who would react. Ryker/Gova were not going to post. I missed Sokr for some reason, and then resolved that in the next post. From this point on, please assume that at least this head of the hydra will use questions and information with the intent to gather information from sources that will give it. We can ask for mod prods for Ryker/Gova and for pawndidater2 soon. In the meantime, I knew you would react when I posted and we've had good talks from there. You're still in a null pile in my mind, so you certainly shouldn't feel attacked. But you should absolutely feel questioned.

 

[Kantrip]

tfw everyone refers to the hydra as rake.
every
damn
time

Sorry Orbro he was the starting slot and I got in the mindset of playing with him. I typically say FML and shall do so from now on

 

[Kantrip]

You're not wrong in any of this. I don't disagree at all. I was applying my posts with discrimination with the intent of getting reactions from the players who would react. Ryker/Gova were not going to post. I missed Sokr for some reason, and then resolved that in the next post. From this point on, please assume that at least this head of the hydra will use questions and information with the intent to gather information from sources that will give it. We can ask for mod prods for Ryker/Gova and for pawndidater2 soon. In the meantime, I knew you would react when I posted and we've had good talks from there. You're still in a null pile in my mind, so you certainly shouldn't feel attacked. But you should absolutely feel questioned.

Are your scumreads also intentionally bad for the sake of sparking conversation?