Q&A Falco, King of the Birds: Game Play Discussion

[Captain Rage Quit 69]

I forgot to ask this sooner, but would anyone be interested in talking about Falco move by move? This idea would be from @Los4Muros who found out about this type of discussion from a Spanish forum for Marvel vs. Capcom. Here's the thread in use now: http://smashboards.com/threads/samus-ftilt-weekly-move-analysis.383884/#post-18307792.

So, we could discuss Falco move by move and how they should be applied. If you all want, then it could be a thread or it could be discussed in this thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/falco-approaches-and-combos-strings.372417/, but that's more about comboing and approaching rather than on specific moves.

@ Captain Rage Quit 69 , your http://smashboards.com/threads/pers...ves-outdated-only-contains-1-0-3-info.373382/ thread could be useful for this.

Edit: Run off Dairs, anyone? It worked against a Fox I fought who charged Fire Fox too close to the ledge, so maybe this is something that Falco can do against Fox, Falco, Ganondorf, Captain Falcon, Diddy, etc., the characters with exploitable recoveries.

Edit 2: Edit Harder: I can't believe I forgot this. The reason why I mentioned Captain Rage Quit 69 is that I'd like it if the Falco boards works as a community. I'm fine with doing all the MU discussions, the frame data thread, and other moderating stuff, but you're all allowed to do whatever. I'm not a general or anything, but more like an ambassador or representer of the Falco boards. I don't want to be doing everything since that's not how a community works; it's like there's no "I" in team.

Tagged me for my contribution, huh? Yeah, the thread I created a long while back was meant to analyze usage for Falco's moves, and I planned to incorporate it into a guide but some people beat me to the punch. I'd gladly discuss each move's usages, given I think that'll be the first thing anyone interested in Falco would want to learn; can't understand match-ups and frame data if you don't even know when and how to use moves.

I'll start a thread later today if I have time to kickstart discussion, just give me a bit to prepare a write-up of my opinions on moves. Should we do a weekly analysis like your example above, or perhaps a more general discussion like the main match-up thread?

Edit: I should mention I love the stuff on Fast Fire Bird, makes me feel good for choosing to rep it.

 

[Ffamran]

Tagged me for my contribution, huh? Yeah, the thread I created a long while back was meant to analyze usage for Falco's moves, and I planned to incorporate it into a guide but some people beat me to the punch. I'd gladly discuss each move's usages, given I think that'll be the first thing anyone interested in Falco would want to learn; can't understand match-ups and frame data if you don't even know when and how to use moves.

I'll start a thread later today if I have time to kickstart discussion, just give me a bit to prepare a write-up of my opinions on moves. Should we do a weekly analysis like your example above, or perhaps a more general discussion like the main match-up thread?

Edit: I should mention I love the stuff on Fast Fire Bird, makes me feel good for choosing to rep it.

Hey, you're in charge, cap'n; you make the rules to the thread.

 

[Snackss]

What kinds of off-stage stuff to do? I'm getting too used to just drop down forward air, which isn't too hard to avoid.

 

[Captain Rage Quit 69]

What kinds of off-stage stuff to do? I'm getting too used to just drop down forward air, which isn't too hard to avoid.

Go for the dair. It's what I do, and even if it misses it distracts the opponent enough I can usually get a bair on the way up, or I just do a little backward jump to bait air dodge and punish with bair. Experiment with some off-stage mindgames, you know? Even laser has a use here and I'm a huge advocate for lasers.

 

[ChickenWing13]

So I just realized Falco's B-throw and U-throw now have kill potential after maining him for a few hours. Boy was I excited! Though from what I can tell it can only kill if the last laser of the throw connects. Guess it's pne of the those DI viable kill moves.

Btw is U throw to U air still a legit combo because Most of the time I cannot get my u-air to connect without my opponent airdodging in time.

 

[Snackss]

Falco's down air is punishable by characters with a good air game and I've never seen it hit beyond a couple feet away from the stage, so I just don't do it.

All I know about Up throw to up air is that it being a combo depends on percent and characters. It often doesn't work on floaty characters (including Samus).

 

[BltzZ]

So I just realized Falco's B-throw and U-throw now have kill potential after maining him for a few hours. Boy was I excited! Though from what I can tell it can only kill if the last laser of the throw connects. Guess it's pne of the those DI viable kill moves.

Btw is U throw to U air still a legit combo because Most of the time I cannot get my u-air to connect without my opponent airdodging in time.

At higher percentages it's not a combo cuz they can air dodge. But after conditioning opponents to airdodge it you can read it delay your up air then land it. It's all timing and studying opponent behavior

 

[skillskillfiretruck]

can someone please link me to the Advanced tech thread?
please help. thanks.
i remember watching a heap of AT videos of Falco.

/ make and advanced tech thread. 4_4 <_<

 

[Snackss]

I've never even seen one. This board is all locked threads and matchup threads.
Where the frame traps

 

[ArhyLis]

Hey guys what do you think of 1 or 2 Jabs then Dtilt? It works wonders for me.

 

[Ffamran]

I've never even seen one. This board is all locked threads and matchup threads.
Where the frame traps

You could, y'know, look through the pages. The only reason there are locked threads are threads that don't really have a purpose like people asking basic things about Falco. Well, there's already a thread for that. As for the MU threads, yeah... that's a consequence of having separate threads per character; we're going to end up with like 54 MU threads if Mewtwo is the last character and if people are okay with a ditto thread.

For AT threads, the issue is this, not a lot of people have ATs when stuff like Falco's Fair spiking, DACUS, short hop double laser, etc. were removed from the beginning or after patch 1.04 for the 3DS and the Wii U which started out with this patch and especially characters that people don't really use or think highly of. I mean, we just figured out about Fast Fire Bird's Fire Slide and being able to shorten it by holding (diagonally) down when the game's been out for like almost 9 months - it first came out in September in Japan if I remember correctly and if I would just look it up.

All we have for Falco so far are these and none of them are exclusive; Falco's Fast Fire Bird -> Perfect Landing Slide which Fox can do too with his Flying Fox custom, but it's not as useful as Falco's Fast Fire Bird because of its launching speed, Falco Dair Cancel which is Frame Canceling and characters like Ganondorf, Captain Falcon, Bowser Jr., and more are all capable of it and the universal thread is this: Frame Cancel, and Falco can sort of Jab cancel Jab 1 and 2 to grab, tilts, and Smashes or back to Jab, but that's also a universal thing that Fox, Link, Sheik, Triple D, Ike, Luigi, I believe Sonic, and a couple more can probably do.

As for these, they're not really ATs, but things you can do with certain moves like Phantasm Spike! which is more or less abusing Falco Phantasm's hitbox to edgeguard and Falco Phantasm not leaving Falco helpless to gimp people early, and there's footstooling out of Fair which Diddy and Little Mac are known for footstool combos while Ganondorf can and will use footstools as part of his combos to gimp you; this thread: F-air to Footstool: Guaranteed Kill?, which was, from what I know, only tested on Captain Falcon, though.

So, to answer your question, @ skillskillfiretruck , there aren't a lot of ATs to even make threads on because one, the game's young and two, this game is probably more like SSB64 than Melee or even Brawl and those that have ATs will be few like Palutena and Peach from what I can remember. Seriously, check out the Peach boards or look up Dark.Pch where you can find stuff like Quick Float Release.

 

[BltzZ]

Hey guys what do you think of 1 or 2 Jabs then Dtilt? It works wonders for me.

I love using this to kill or either follow with up airs or nairs. On a side note I'm a little disappointed with the servers. My online falco is nothing compared to my offline smh. my timing is just so off loL

 

[Zionaze]

offtopic but lately I havent been getting any alerts on the Falco boards. I miss out on some stuff because of this. anybody know the cause?

 

[Ffamran]

offtopic but lately I havent been getting any alerts on the Falco boards. I miss out on some stuff because of this. anybody know the cause?

I think it's an issue that happens when the forums doesn't think you've read the latest post. The or it's just a glitch.

 

[BltzZ]

offtopic but lately I havent been getting any alerts on the Falco boards. I miss out on some stuff because of this. anybody know the cause?

Yeah that's been happening to me as well sometimes. I honestly don't know the cause of the issue but it's kind of annoying I don't wanna miss out on any possible AT finds

 

[Snackss]

Do you need to cancel the jabs by crouching to get the proper down tilt followup? The crouch cancel is so subtle and Fox doesn't need to do it for his jab grab, so I don't practice it.

 

[BltzZ]

Do you need to cancel the jabs by crouching to get the proper down tilt followup? The crouch cancel is so subtle and Fox doesn't need to do it for his jab grab, so I don't practice it.

No crouch canceling needed you just have to delay the third animation and down tilt. You can use any tilt out of this and even grab it just requires muscle memory

 

[Gamegenie222]

So yeah I just got back from my regional called Roll Tier V which M2K was present at and it had a little over 64 people and I got 9th with Falco/Robin one spot away from Top 8 and was in M2K's pool and lost to him in winners and lost to a Colorado Lucario player named Sunny who is an old brawl head and I lost to him in winner side of pools and losers bracket so yeah screw Lucario time to grind.

 

[Ffamran]

Falco can't do the gatling combo, but he can still act out of Dash Attack well enough that he can Up Smash, right? He can still pull of a pseudo-gatling combo that might only work on heavyweights like Ganondorf or use Up Smash to cover a (whiffed) Dash Attack.

 

[SoundChow]

I have a few questions about Falco's normal jab and rapid jab combo. I've been playing a lot of Fox and King Dedede recently, and I've noticed that their first two hits of their rapid jab combo can be canceled into itself, grab, or another quick attack. Going back to playing Falco, I naturally found myself pausing after the first two jabs and trying to go for grab or another repeated jab, but the results were inconsistent and I'd often just get a pause before the finisher of the jab combo. I personally think that Falco's jab combo is pretty good as it is, seeing that it deals a good 11% and is hard to escape, but I also think it's possible to end the last two hits with a d-tilt, which sets up for follow-ups much better. Is it common knowledge that Falco can't cancel his jabs into a guaranteed follow-up, or am I just timing everything incorrectly?

 

[Ffamran]

We've talked about this: http://smashboards.com/threads/falco-king-of-the-birds-game-play-discussion-q-a.367184/page-24. Do you mind if I just merge this thread with the GD/QA thread? Locking it seems pointless.

All we have for Falco so far are these and none of them are exclusive; Falco's Fast Fire Bird -> Perfect Landing Slide which Fox can do too with his Flying Fox custom, but it's not as useful as Falco's Fast Fire Bird because of its launching speed, Falco Dair Cancel which is Frame Canceling and characters like Ganondorf, Captain Falcon, Bowser Jr., and more are all capable of it and the universal thread is this: Frame Cancel, and Falco can sort of Jab cancel Jab 1 and 2 to grab, tilts, and Smashes or back to Jab, but that's also a universal thing that Fox, Link, Sheik, Triple D, Ike, Luigi, I believe Sonic, and a couple more can probably do.

Hey guys what do you think of 1 or 2 Jabs then Dtilt? It works wonders for me.

I love using this to kill or either follow with up airs or nairs. On a side note I'm a little disappointed with the servers. My online falco is nothing compared to my offline smh. my timing is just so off loL

No crouch canceling needed you just have to delay the third animation and down tilt. You can use any tilt out of this and even grab it just requires muscle memory

 

[SoundChow]

We've talked about this: http://smashboards.com/threads/falco-king-of-the-birds-game-play-discussion-q-a.367184/page-24. Do you mind if I just merge this thread with the GD/QA thread? Locking it seems pointless.

Yeah sorry about that, I should have put this in the Q and A thread all along.

 

[Ffamran]

To add onto that, pretty much everyone except for Ganondorf and Zelda who have single hit Jabs can delay their Jab to something else, but how well they can do it depends. So, Fox, Sheik, Link, and Toon Link can go from Jab to almost anything relatively fast, but Falco, Ness, Bowser Jr., and Sonic can't really go into moves that fast. No matter how slow, they can still delay their Jab to mix up their Jab game. Most people expect say, Sonic to complete his Jab combo, but what if he just stops, grabs you, and throws you? That might throw off people, especially if they didn't know he could do that or aren't seasoned enough to expect whatever and go with it.

I did an informal check yesterday on Jab delaying, canceling, etc. More of it was explained by other people like HeroMystic, Lavani, A2, etc. on how their characters' Jab works since I just checked and I don't know the specifics. Read more about it starting around here: http://smashboards.com/threads/character-competitive-impressions.367669/page-535#post-18848908.

Little check on Jab canceling, so this is a quick look and nothing in depth. Posted in the Zelda Social and the discussion sort of began there... And there are way too many characters. I left out the ones mentioned above and the Mii Fighters. Also, starting with Diddy, it's all done on Mario.

Damn it, Mario! Stop pushing people forward with your Jab! So far, it might be okay for Down Smash, Dtilt, Ftilt, and Super Jump Punch since it freaking moves people forward making it difficult to grab, repeat Jab, or Utilt. Same goes for Dr. Mario except worse since he has more knockback...

And yeah, Toon Link can Jab cancel too which makes sense since he's toon Link... Y'know, a toon version of Link? As for Little Mac, Jab 1's delay is longer than Jab 2; Jab 2 to Dtilt is pretty wicked since Dtilt hit confirms into Rising Uppercut and KO Punch, Jab 2 can go into Rising Uppercut too... hehe. And yeah, he can grab out of Jab 2 while Ftilt and Utilt might miss, especially Ftilt which could be used to catch someone if they get out of his Gentleman.

Bowser's Jab 1 has knockback and I don't think he can do much aside from Jab 1 to Ftilt and maybe Dash Slam. I'm not sure...

Bowser Jr.'s Jab 1 has less delay to act into other moves than Jab 2, but Jab 2 can be delayed into Jab 1 and Jab 2 again. He can Jab 1 or Jab 2 into tilts and Smashes which I forgot to mention...

Diddy... uh... I think Diddy can Jab lock Captain Falcon with Jab 1 and Jab 2 which can repeat into itself fairly well. Acting into anything else has a longer delay for some reason. I also checked Mario and he can sort of do Jab lock Mario... For those that hate people, please test this.

The Pits can Jab 1 to grab while Jab 2 might need them to run towards to grab. Jab 1 to Ftilt is fairly fast and Jab 2 to Dtilt seems to be faster than out of Jab 1, but I'm not sure.

I'm not getting much success with Robin other than repeating Jab 2 back to Jab 1 and Jab 2. Meta Knight... Meta Knight can repeat Ftilt 1 or Ftilt 2 to Ftilt 1 and 2 and he can Ftilt 1 or Ftilt 2 to Dtilt, Utilt, Up and Down Smashes, and grab. Not that useful, especially with Ftilt 1 into grab since the hit stun isn't great and the delay's noticeable unless I'm doing something wrong.

Cool, Pac-Man can Jab 1 or Jab 2 to tilts or back to Jab 1 easily while Smashes and grab are slower. He can Jab 1 or Jab 2 to Hydrant, Trampoline, and Bonus Fruit, it's kind of funny with Hydrant since he just punches and slaps a fire hydrant down. Oh, and Jab cancel to taunts will be the new metagame.

As expected, Shulk can Jab 1 to Jab 1 or Jab 2 to Jab 1 again like Ike. He can Jab 1 to grab, but the knockback might be much along with the delay, but Jab 1 to Dtilt is nifty compared to his other tilts and Smashes. Jab 1 and Jab 2 can go into Air Slash, but Jab 1 seems to lead into it a bit faster.

Repeating Wii Fit Trainer's Jab 1 is hilarious since she just sticks out her arm and leg repeatedly. She can repeat Jab 1 and 2 fairly well and grabbing be an issue because of her range. Tilts are fine except for Utilt because it's more of a vertical hit rather than a horizontal one; Ftilt might be a good choice since it's fast and has decent range compared to the other tilts, sure, Dtilt has more range, but it's slower. That said, there feels like more delay for them compare to repeating her Jab.

Not exactly fast, but Villager's Jab 1 or 2 can go into tilts and Smashes, but be careful about Utilt , Up and Side Smash. Villager can also Jab 1 or 2 to Axe, Pocket which I guess Villager can hit confirm into a Pocket throw... thing... and Lloid Rocket which is kind of hilarious since Villager slaps a Lloid Rocket in front of him after punching. Grabbing might not be a good idea since it's slow. It makes sense for Villager to be able to Jab into things since Villager's Jab is basically controllable Rapid Jab unlike Meta Knight's. Let's see how Villager can get more broken. Seriously, Villager can Jab to Down Smash. Think about that or hit confirm into Axe.

My boy Ness can Jab 1 and Jab 2 to tilts except for Utilt, Smashes, and grab. He can repeat it too and it feels a bit like using Fox's Jab cancel, reset, lock... thing. Look, he's basically capable of pulling the stuff Luigi can too. Seriously, this kid's grab game... FAAAAAALCO! MOVE YOUR ARMS FASTER! IT'S JAB AND GRAB, IDIOT!

ROB can Jab 1 to stuff too like grab, tilts, Smashes, Gyro, Robo Beam, etc. but the way Mario's landing... Yeah, it might be a bit dangerous if Mario can act of out it.

Huh, I didn't know Duck Hunt had a Gentleman Jab. Yeah, same dealio, Duck Hunt can Jab 1 or 2 into tilts and grab while Smashes are too slow. As for Specials, Duck Hunt can throw Can out which I don't recommend since it might cause Duck Hunt to SD while Clay is slow.

Jigglypuff does the same thing as Kirby, especially with grabbing. Utilt won't hit while Side Smash and Dtilt are a bit slow, so go for Ftilt and maybe Up and Down Smash. Don't bother with Specials, especially Rest. Jigglypuff can repeat Jab as well.

Charizard can Jab repeat Jab 1 and 2, grab out of either of them, use any tilt, but Utilt, Smash, and use Specials, especially Rock Smash and Fly which is iffy since if Charizard knocks the opponent too far, it'll whiff.

Mr. Game & Watch basically pulls of the same thing as Palutena. Jab 1 to anything. So, GimR wannabes, Jab 1 to D-throw and Judge. Just beware that outside from grab and tilts, his Smashes are slower for this purpose while Chef, Judge, Bucket - why would you do this? -, Oil Panic - hit confirm possibly? -, and Fire/Parachute all work.

Lucina and Marth's Jab 1 to anything is slow and the knockback might be much. Dolphin Slash works, though and Dtilt sort of works... Grabbing probably won't because of the knockback and it looks like they have to set their swords before they can do anything other than Jab 2.

Olimar I don't think can do much from Jab. I checked Peach and I don't think she can do much since it's a bit long between actions. Same with Wario. Why is Lucario's Jab like that? Jaysus it's weird; the delay between a free action into say, tilts and grabs are way too long... As for Pikachu, probably not worth it since Pikachu's Jab is weak. Mega Man's Jab being "non-traditional" makes it difficult to do much aside from Jab to Ftilt which might as well be the same move as Jab or Dtilt. Also since there's knockback if Mega Man's close with his Jab - the setting down of his arm is considered a hit, right? - already makes it so he can do much but Jab or move away.

Edit: Derp. Forgot to include what Bowser Jr. could even do after Jab 1 and 2.

 

[SoundChow]

To add onto that, pretty much everyone except for Ganondorf and Zelda who have single hit Jabs can delay their Jab to something else, but how well they can do it depends. So, Fox, Sheik, Link, and Toon Link can go from Jab to almost anything relatively fast, but Falco, Ness, Bowser Jr., and Sonic can't really go into moves that fast. No matter how slow, they can still delay their Jab to mix up their Jab game. Most people expect say, Sonic to complete his Jab combo, but what if he just stops, grabs you, and throws you? That might throw off people, especially if they didn't know he could do that or aren't seasoned enough to expect whatever and go with it.

I did an informal check yesterday on Jab delaying, canceling, etc. More of it was explained by other people like HeroMystic, Lavani, A2, etc. on how their characters' Jab works since I just checked and I don't know the specifics. Read more about it starting around here: http://smashboards.com/threads/character-competitive-impressions.367669/page-535#post-18848908.

Thanks a lot for the detailed write-up. I guess Falco's jab cancel isn't as practical as Fox's or Dedede's, but I'm still going to get his jab cancel down as a mixup to the regular rapid jab combo.

 

[Ffamran]

Thanks a lot for the detailed write-up. I guess Falco's jab cancel isn't as practical as Fox's or Dedede's, but I'm still going to get his jab cancel down as a mixup to the regular rapid jab combo.

Someone said Falco's Jab to a free action delay period was increased from Brawl and if anything, it wasn't Falco's fault chain grabs existed in Brawl. Some of the changes to Falco like double start up on Dash Attack, the Jab cancel delay increase, and Blaster were really unnecessary considering that it was the developers who gave Falco that monster of a Blaster in Brawl while Melee's Blaster was just fine and SSB4 could have used that instead or hell, Brawl could have kept Melee's Blaster and people wouldn't complain. Dash Attack gaining double the start up is just weird. There wasn't anything broken about it in Brawl, but now we have a frame 8 Dash Attack instead of a frame 4 one which if it was a problem, could have been frame 5 or 6 instead.

The only changes I feel while looking at each incarnation was Brawl's Blaster and Dair and Fair. I covered Brawl's Blaster and I wrote up something a while back where it was just insane compared to Melee's Blaster. If I remember right, on the ground, Brawl Falco would fire it at frame 13 but in the air, at frame 10 and the ability to autocancel when Falco touched the ground, and I didn't find the rate of fire between lasers, but in Melee it was like frame 20 on the ground and frame 17 in the air with the ability to autocancel when Falco touches the ground with about 15 frame in between shots - I could look through the pages to find it again and edit it in later. That, Melee's Blaster even with autocancel frames, was not a monster since the lasers themselves didn't travel as fast as Brawl's, could travel the distance of FD, or fire that fast as in Brawl. That Blaster was fine. In a way, it was like killing the messenger; Falco was just a solid character who could exploit the game's mechanic like how Fox exploited Melee's.

Dair's more of maybe a powerful and fast spike wasn't a good idea. So, it could have been a weak, fast Dair or a slow, strong one like most people where in this case, it's the same speed as Captain Falcon and Ganondorf's at frame 16. In Melee and Brawl, his Dair was frame 5. Let that sink in. It wasn't OP, but it was sure as hell a strong tool in Falco's arsenal. Falco still needed to set up the move to do much while laser spamming... Eh, I'd argue that was OP compared to his Melee and Brawl Dair. Hell, they could have made it frame 10 and weaker and it'd be fine along with being a frame 16, powerful spike.

Considering how multi-hit moves are in this game, Brawl's Fair would be powerful if not broken, especially early on before patch 1.04. It was a frame 6 move that translated to pre-patch 1.04 SSB4 could drag people down, gimp them, or just outright spike them. As a frame 12 move, it makes sense, but frame 8 or 10 would be cool too.

Well, whatever. Falco's still a solid character and this game's the most balanced official game to date. There might be better characters, but even then, it's not like playing as Ganondorf in Brawl and struggling all the time. In this game, characters will struggle, but as severe as past games.

Here's a link to where I compared Falco's hit frame data with the past game's: http://smashboards.com/threads/falc...y-discussion-q-a.367184/page-23#post-18782512.

Specifically, this:

Aside from engine changes affect how the games were played and therefore changing Falco's play style in each game which can't be helped, what "killed" Falco was one change: Blaster which allowed him to approach and force approaches while tacking on damage. In Melee, Falco shoots at frame 23 and every 24 frames per shot on the ground while he shoots at frame 13 and every 16 frames per shot in the air and autocancels whenever Falco touches the ground. In Brawl: frame 12 on the ground with a total of 56 frames from shooting to holstering and frame 10 in the air with autocancel frames from 1-41 while the move last from I think if I'm reading and thinking about it right, frames 10 for the shot to 41 for the holster. Yeah... That's a monster. I don't know when SSB4's Blaster autocancels or if it even autocancels. Here's the thing: It looks worse than Melee's Blaster which from watching videos of Falco using it, was not as horrible as Brawl's laser wall. Hell, they could have kept Melee's Blaster's frame data, made the lasers travel about a third of FD, and made the autocancel window at frame 17 or something where Falco has to shoot first before he lands or else. Everything else about Falco pretty much stayed the same, was changed by a frame or two, and was similar enough that it didn't really matter.

 

[BltzZ]

I have a few questions about Falco's normal jab and rapid jab combo. I've been playing a lot of Fox and King Dedede recently, and I've noticed that their first two hits of their rapid jab combo can be canceled into itself, grab, or another quick attack. Going back to playing Falco, I naturally found myself pausing after the first two jabs and trying to go for grab or another repeated jab, but the results were inconsistent and I'd often just get a pause before the finisher of the jab combo. I personally think that Falco's jab combo is pretty good as it is, seeing that it deals a good 11% and is hard to escape, but I also think it's possible to end the last two hits with a d-tilt, which sets up for follow-ups much better. Is it common knowledge that Falco can't cancel his jabs into a guaranteed follow-up, or am I just timing everything incorrectly?

It's a pain but requires muscle memory to hit consistently. It's really good to learn because Falco's first two jabs lifts enemies. When they land they have a lag animation which should give enough time to tilt or grab or even jab again

Falco can't do the gatling combo, but he can still act out of Dash Attack well enough that he can Up Smash, right? He can still pull of a pseudo-gatling combo that might only work on heavyweights like Ganondorf or use Up Smash to cover a (whiffed) Dash Attack.

It works on almost everyone at early percents. I follow the up smash with two up tilts then a bair. Landing after the bair can add maybe another dash attack or a tilt

 

[NotAnAdmin]

His jabs don't work so well with that tech, sadly.
Falco's endlag is just enough for your opponent to get out of grab range.
However it is still a good mixup, jab 2 to dash grab seems to work pretty well, usually the opponent will try shielding and DI away to get out of the jabs.

 

[Ffamran]

@ BltzZ , did your internet borked and caused you to double-post?

It works on almost everyone at early percents. I follow the up smash with two up tilts then a bair. Landing after the bair can add maybe another dash attack or a tilt

Cool, I was thinking of messing around with that, but it's probably not going to work that well online...

His jabs don't work so well with that tech, sadly.
Falco's endlag is just enough for your opponent to get out of grab range.
However it is still a good mixup, jab 2 to dash grab seems to work pretty well, usually the opponent will try shielding and DI away to get out of the jabs.

My favorite thing to do is Jab 1, Jab 2, grab, and F-throw immediately with Falco and Fox. It's so brutal. I don't give a damn if it puts me in a worse stage situation, it's just worth it to do that.

 

[NotAnAdmin]

His f-throw is pretty harsh, looks like he just elbows the guy right in the face.

 

[BltzZ]

@ BltzZ , did your internet borked and caused you to double-post?

Cool, I was thinking of messing around with that, but it's probably not going to work that well online...


My favorite thing to do is Jab 1, Jab 2, grab, and F-throw immediately with Falco and Fox. It's so brutal. I don't give a damn if it puts me in a worse stage situation, it's just worth it to do that.

Lol sorry using my phone to post isn't as reliable as my pc. His FThrow is such s badass animation. It satisfies me so

 

[Ffamran]

His f-throw is pretty harsh, looks like he just elbows the guy right in the face.

Melee's guide calls it an Elbow Bash, so yeah... Considering how hard the elbow is and it's slamming onto someone's face, it's brutal and there's a reason why Muay Thai fighters love using elbows and knees up close when punches and kicks can do much. If someone wants to cut with their elbow, then it'd be spaced so the end of the elbow makes contact, but Falco and Fox are slamming their forearms onto people. Remember this thread? Move Names for Falco?

Lol sorry using my phone to post isn't as reliable as my pc. His FThrow is such s badass animation. It satisfies me so

Captain Falcon and Ganondorf's throws, especially D-throw, Ike's throws, especially D-throw, and Falco and Fox's D-throw and F-throw are some of my favorites. Shulk's throws are brutal too since he impales you with the Monado.

 

[NotAnAdmin]

I forgot all about that, Nintendo had to know Skeet Shooter had to be the best name for a throw...

 

[Macedonian]

Hey guys, i was wondering if you could give me some input on when you guys use which throw. Down throw and upthrow can both lead into some really good combos but im never sure which is optimal for the percentage.

 

[NotAnAdmin]

It's sort of up to you, in the thick of battle you have to make your choice on which one to use.

At low percent I go for the regular dthrow>dash or dthrow>upsmash and try to make a good follow-up from there.
At higher percent where I'm trying to get the kill I mix it up and just go from instinct, up throw and back throw can kill if the laser connects at very high percent (around 130+)
I can say though one rule is to be smart with fthrow, it's simply not good unless you manage to throw your opponent directly off stage, it more often than not puts you in a bad position.

 

[Ffamran]

Hey guys, i was wondering if you could give me some input on when you guys use which throw. Down throw and upthrow can both lead into some really good combos but im never sure which is optimal for the percentage.

Shaya advocates for U-throw in general because of Falco's jump height which puts people in situations they don't want to be in. So, sort of like if Goku did an uppercut and he instant transmissions or flies up with you. Noted here.

If you use any other throw bar Up-throw (except in stage position situations), you've been doing it terribly wrong.

Up Throw Up-Air true combos at kill percent due to throw-laser + rage mechanics.

And this.

What about F-throw to Falco Phantasm at low percents and D-throw to Dash Attack, Up Smash, Utilt, Nair, or Fair or whatever at low percents and dependent on characters? And there's B-throw which more or less is a kill throw or get someone off stage or elsewhere throw.

No (double aerials and/or into tilts) and "except in stage position situations"

berserker01 suggests using D-throw to RAR Bair which is apparently safer than Dash Attack.

Why do Falco players still use d-throw > dash attack? It's not that hard to follow up b-air from d-throw imo

U-throw > U-air > Sweetspot b-air MMmmmm~~~

On U-throw.

What's the biggest combo Falco can get off a uthrow? uthrow>uair>weak bair>strong bair is the best I know, for 39%

Uthrow definitely >>>>> dthrow, but dthrow works for low percents while uthrow is your mid-high percent throw. And yes dthrow>usmash is a thing on fatties and fastfallers.

D-throw to b-air is best at low percentages, yes. Once you reach higher percentages, it's all up to u-throw. I haven't pulled off u-throw > u-air > sourspot b-air > sweetspot b-air yet. I only got u-air > sweetspot b-air off from u-throw.

I'm beginning to like u-throw a LOT with Falco

U-throw > U-air > B-air
U-throw > U-air > U-air
U-throw > U-air > D-air isn't a true combo but they fall for it sometimes

I think D-throw > U-smash works but it only works on them fatties/characters with big hurtboxes

Edit: D-throw <<< U-throw

And from SBphiloz4.

For Falco:

Lower percentages - Dthrow
Mid percentages - Uthrow
High percentages - Uthrow, Bthrow

I don't see much use for Fthrow. :/

Honestly for a secondary, my Falco is pretty basic, considering that my main is a character that has very linear options in the first place . So it's just fundamentals but not incredibly amazing.

For me, on why people use D-throw a lot and what you could do with F-throw.

Because it was at first established as Falco's bread and butter combos until people realized that some characters can get out of it like Luigi with his Nair and I bet Yoshi can too. Some people try to go for Up Smash, Fair, or Nair out of D-throw. Then there's the Ftilt out of D-throw that I guess people started using after seeing the Falco use it on Pon, but once again, it's probably not going to work on everyone. There was a suggestion for Dtilt and I think Utilt could be used in place of Up Smash. Oh, and D-throw or B-throw to (hopped) Blaster.

Then there's F-throw to Falco Phantasm. With Fast Fire Bird, D-throw might be able to combo more, but 2% from FFB might not be worth it. U-throw is a bit safer, but later on it requires that Falco follow his opponent. With the right reads, height, and percent, Falco will juggle and take stocks. Uair near the ledge is pretty sweet. With rage and percent, Falco can punish someone trying to ledgeguard.

On another note, pivot walking, as shown by this Japanese player. Has anyone done pivot walks or tried to implement it into their gameplay? Falco's apparently been able to pivot walk since Melee, but it was in Brawl where he could abuse it for chain grabs. Pivot walks are faster than regular walking from what people have said. I don't know if Falco's pivot walk is faster than his regular walk, but it looks deceptive. Noted by these two here:

That's the term! Thanks for that. =)

Pivot walking was a weird tech in Brawl. Some characters like Marth, it allowed them to do a kind of wavedash-like thing in terms that it allowed him to move really quickly whilst being able to execute a smash attack at any time. Unfortunately it's hard to pull off and not really worth it normally, and in Brawl there was only like 2 characters that moved faster than regular walking for it to be remotely useful. Who knows though, that might be different in smash 4.

Palutena has a really easy to do Pivot Walk with good speed (pretty sure it is faster then her regular walk speed) and pretty good distance. If you could get it down consistently with her it would be superior to her walking in just about every way since, just like walking, she could preform any action out of it, while moving faster then her regular walk speed. But is generally character specific.

 

[Luco]

I feel warm and fuzzy when I get quoted in places. <3

I'm sorry, I'll let you get back to it. =P

 

[Baskerville]

About the D-Throw -> U-Smash combo @berserker01 mentioned, it is possible to hit smaller characters by doing jump cancelled U-Smash, though at low %.

 

[Ffamran]

I finally, finally understand why Falco's Up Smash whiffs so much. Thanks @Nammy12 for SSB4 Falco's move gifs.

WARNING: Long winded explanation; just read the first paragraph if you're not interested in the rest.

Spoiler

Can't tell? Look at the pink arc. Yeah, it's arcing not like Fox's or Yoshi's backflip which covers their entire front and looks like they're arcing "flatly", but diagonally around him which means: Z-axis dodging shenanigans. In Training Mode, you can - well the 3DS version can, I'm not sure about the Wii U version - use the "Hold L" speed option. Instead of holding it, tap it and watch Falco's Up Smash snapshot to snapshot. Before that, watch his charging animation; Falco twists himself so he can backflip while turning to hit with the heel of his right foot then his left - weird wording, but I hope you understand what I'm saying. This also explains why he lands differently than Fox and SSB4 Yoshi's Up Smash.

Look at Fox's Up Smash. Yoshi's is pretty much the same thing along Brawl Wolf's Dash Attack and Falco's old Up Smash from Melee and Brawl. All three turn to face the front with Fox preparing to kick with his both feet at the start then his right leg for the rest of the move - this probably explains the sweet-spot -, Yoshi preparing to kick with his left leg, and Wolf preparing to kick with both feet, but only Fox and Yoshi land facing forward on both feet while Falco lands right foot first and kneels down to let his left foot land since it "lagged" behind for the second hit. All three also kick with the front part of their feet. Thank @Zelkam for Fox's Up Smash gif.

Funny enough, Brawl Wolf's Dash attack had him landing like Falco, but he performed the kick similarly to Fox, Melee/Brawl Falco, and SSB4 Yoshi. Thank @TheWolfBackRoom for the Brawl Wolf gifs.

Brawl Wolf's Up Smash had him turning, spinning, twisting, or whatever you want to call it; Sonic's Uair was the same. In other words: it covered a radius around Wolf before pulling people in to the "scissor cut". I say Brawl Wolf because for all we know, if Wolf returns, he might not have that Up Smash. I mean, look at Falco and his changes in SSB4. Or even Pikachu who has different animations in SSB4.

SSB4 Falco and Brawl Wolf (and Sonic) had beautifully animated and flashy Up Smashes - Uair for Sonic -, but in practice, Brawl Wolf's would beat SSB4 Falco's because of that horizontal coverage (Z- and X-axises) whereas SSB4 Falco's Up Smash covers partially the Z- and X-axises. It really, really sucks since Falco's Up Smash is one of my favorite moves animation-wise; Sheik's Down Smash is another favorite since she breakdances while fighting.

 

[Snackss]

We all get to be Shaq for today? Neat.

I don't think of the up smash as something that can be used to hit people in front of me. I broke someone's shield while playing Falco on 3DS before the WIi U version was out, tried to KO with up smash and they just fell out of it. I've tried to avoid using it as a punish since, and I just think of it as an anti-air

And it's difficult figuring out when you need to play spacing and when you need to be a bit more aggressive. Captain Falcon will walk all over you if you try to respect him. You can have moderate success keeping Luigi out but it's a lot of effort and he can make up for the damage he takes getting in off of one grab, but you can't be aggressive because Luigi's frame data is so absurd. I know this is a matchup thing but it's really one of the most difficult parts of Falco.

 

[Gamegenie222]

So they announced a balance patch with the Mewtwo update later in the month when he becomes able to be bought around the 28th of this month.

All I want for Falco is faster air speed, a full hitbox on side B and fix his whiffing issues with Up smash. Everything else that's a buff would be icing on the cake.