PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[SpiderMad]

@ Dr Peepee Is there a match out there where you tried laser camping someone to a hilarious extent?

I also wish you would make more small write-ups on the Psychological/Ego connection of people's weaknesses in their play like you use to. I can't recall the exact posts, but you talked about how you would exploit someone's whole mentality as a person to see what in-game actions you should do on them.

Like this http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/c..._this_is_ppmd_winner_of_sktar_3_falco/cim36j0
Like go on about "I understand what makes people vulnerable then seek to find that in-game. Sometimes it's just funny to see people express their true selves in the game". (more so than just this http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/c..._this_is_ppmd_winner_of_sktar_3_falco/cim64f1 )

 

[Dr Peepee]

There is no publicly available match of me camping someone, but I've tested it some vs Twitch and it's pretty hard/only kind of viable on Dreamland lol. Vs Fox anyway.

Hm yeah I could write about such things but I would imagine the people I would write about would not appreciate it so much. It's something I'd have to find a way to appropriately write I'd think.

 

[Twilight Emblem]

Thanks Bones0.

Dr Peepee I apologize if this has already been mentioned but
I saw in a post I can't for the life of me find atm that you were interested in posting some info on the dash dance game. Atm i'm having trouble finding a more comprehensive dash dance post. Did that ever get written?

If it hasn't I was wondering if you could tell us the main considerations you have when attempting to use dash dancing. If that is too general to answer specifically I was wondering if you could share in general what things you commonly keep your attention focused on when dash dancing. What the intent is, what the purpose behind it is. How many different intentions are going on at once when you do it, etc.

I think its been said somewhere that improving the dash dance game is a huge part in improving with falco so i'm really eager to get better at it.

 

[Jackson]

Thanks Bones0.

Dr Peepee I apologize if this has already been mentioned but
I saw in a post I can't for the life of me find atm that you were interested in posting some info on the dash dance game. Atm i'm having trouble finding a more comprehensive dash dance post. Did that ever get written?

If it hasn't I was wondering if you could tell us the main considerations you have when attempting to use dash dancing. If that is too general to answer specifically I was wondering if you could share in general what things you commonly keep your attention focused on when dash dancing. What the intent is, what the purpose behind it is. How many different intentions are going on at once when you do it, etc.

I think its been said somewhere that improving the dash dance game is a huge part in improving with falco so i'm really eager to get better at it.

I'd love to hear this as well.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Thanks Bones0.

Dr Peepee I apologize if this has already been mentioned but
I saw in a post I can't for the life of me find atm that you were interested in posting some info on the dash dance game. Atm i'm having trouble finding a more comprehensive dash dance post. Did that ever get written?

If it hasn't I was wondering if you could tell us the main considerations you have when attempting to use dash dancing. If that is too general to answer specifically I was wondering if you could share in general what things you commonly keep your attention focused on when dash dancing. What the intent is, what the purpose behind it is. How many different intentions are going on at once when you do it, etc.

I think its been said somewhere that improving the dash dance game is a huge part in improving with falco so i'm really eager to get better at it.

I hope to do something somewhat comprehensive about this in my stream so I can provide accessible visuals, but for now I'll write a bit so it could be helpful.

Start with Lucien's tutorials: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfBuAo_Bfvw then related video number 2.

The concepts mentioned there apply to Falco in that he can approach with laser/nair/dair. A dash forward implies the threat of doing any of those attacks. Consider how your opponent must deal with each of these threats. No matter the character, each of those options are quite strong. For Nair and Dair, you might be better off backing up to punish their landing lag, while for laser you might be better off hitting Falco early before his laser comes out(since it takes FOREVER for laser to come out and it cancels quickly on landing.) This is rather convenient for Falco since it means the opponent has to choose to attack early or late to beat out his options done at this spacing. From here you can gather information in a variety of ways to discern how they might try to beat your options. A simple one is dash forward WD back. By the time you WD back you can see how they respond to your dash forward and have information, plus you'll be pretty safe as you WD backward. A dash backward is a bit different in that it stretches the threatening range or full spacing Lucein describes in his tutorial. It is more likely that the opponent will want to re-establish this threatening range by moving forward as you move backward, and this presents new mixups you can do(thinking like this constitutes defensive play.) The most straightforward option is to pull back then go into the opponent as they come forward. Opponents can be aware of such things and move forward slightly or move forward then move backward, and so on, so this is no surefire plan I am offering here. However, I am trying to encourage thinking about the threatening range and the purpose of either a forward or backward dash in that spacing. Only when each of these choices begin to be understood can you begin to build understanding until dash dance as an entire unit can be known.

Some points for critical thinking would include:

-how platforms/vertical play interact with the dash(dance)

-what various combinations of 2 dashes can do

-how a laser interacts with each dash(remember how the opponent would respond to dashes and think of how they respond to lasers.)

This also is by no means comprehensive, but this is sort of a foundation that you could understand DD'ing better with for Falco.

 

[SpiderMad]

@ Dr Peepee Do you like the mechanic Melee has where if you do an aerial or special on the first airborn height, your overall SH or FH height is reduced? So doing a frame perfect aerial or laser in a FH under BF's platform stops you from landing on it when you otherwise would; did you know of this and utilize it at all? And if not, even still, do you think you like the mechanic then?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yeah I know of this. I don't have very strong feelings about it, but I feel it can be interesting in some niche instances.

 

[SpiderMad]

Yeah I know of this. I don't have very strong feelings about it, but I feel it can be interesting in some niche instances.

Do you ever notice yourself blowing your tech window by missing a power shield or full pressing an L-cancel? If you full shield, or otherwise try to power shield something, but you did it late (like tried buffering it after a move) and got hit; technically I think it blows the next 40 frames after 20 or so to tech even though you did it while on the ground.

Have you ever thought of removing/modifying your controller's shoulder triggers/springs? I forget, but did you not like Rumble? You should tell me your opinion on the new Smash 4 controllers once you get a chance to have/play with one.

How do you feel about PM nerfing Falco's dair in PM?

Oh, why was Leffen able to trick you so well with Wait to Get-up Attack at MLG?

 

[Boomhound]

As a PAL melee player I don't think Falco's D-air is a big deal, it does it's job fine in almost every situation as the NTSC version

 

[SpiderMad]

As a PAL melee player I don't think Falco's D-air is a big deal, it does it's job fine in almost every situation as the NTSC version

I think they nerfed it a little more than even PAL imo

 

[Twilight Emblem]

I hope to do something somewhat comprehensive about this in my stream so I can provide accessible visuals, but for now I'll write a bit so it could be helpful.

Start with Lucien's tutorials: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfBuAo_Bfvw then related video number 2.

The concepts mentioned there apply to Falco in that he can approach with laser/nair/dair. A dash forward implies the threat of doing any of those attacks. Consider how your opponent must deal with each of these threats. No matter the character, each of those options are quite strong. For Nair and Dair, you might be better off backing up to punish their landing lag, while for laser you might be better off hitting Falco early before his laser comes out(since it takes FOREVER for laser to come out and it cancels quickly on landing.) This is rather convenient for Falco since it means the opponent has to choose to attack early or late to beat out his options done at this spacing. From here you can gather information in a variety of ways to discern how they might try to beat your options. A simple one is dash forward WD back. By the time you WD back you can see how they respond to your dash forward and have information, plus you'll be pretty safe as you WD backward. A dash backward is a bit different in that it stretches the threatening range or full spacing Lucein describes in his tutorial. It is more likely that the opponent will want to re-establish this threatening range by moving forward as you move backward, and this presents new mixups you can do(thinking like this constitutes defensive play.) The most straightforward option is to pull back then go into the opponent as they come forward. Opponents can be aware of such things and move forward slightly or move forward then move backward, and so on, so this is no surefire plan I am offering here. However, I am trying to encourage thinking about the threatening range and the purpose of either a forward or backward dash in that spacing. Only when each of these choices begin to be understood can you begin to build understanding until dash dance as an entire unit can be known.

Some points for critical thinking would include:

-how platforms/vertical play interact with the dash(dance)

-what various combinations of 2 dashes can do

-how a laser interacts with each dash(remember how the opponent would respond to dashes and think of how they respond to lasers.)

This also is by no means comprehensive, but this is sort of a foundation that you could understand DD'ing better with for Falco.

Somebody needs to make an account named "everyone else" just for the sake of liking posts like this lol
Thanks Dr Peepee

 

[tauKhan]

technically I think it blows the next 40 frames after 20 or so to tech even though you did it while on the ground.

I don't know if you meant this, but pressing L/R activates 20 frame tech window, and 40 frame window during which another tech inputs cause you to miss tech. (Though there are some special rules conserning hitlag I'm not sure of.) These windows start simultaneously, so tech is disabled for 40 frames, not 60 frames, like I would deduce from your post.

 

[SpiderMad]

I don't know if you meant this, but pressing L/R activates 20 frame tech window, and 40 frame window during which another tech inputs cause you to miss tech. (Though there are some special rules conserning hitlag I'm not sure of.) These windows start simultaneously, so tech is disabled for 40 frames, not 60 frames, like I would deduce from your post.

Thanks. So if I full press my L-cancel on accident, I should just refrain from ever trying to press tech again in case I get hit; and just hope I land in time from the 20 frames before I reach frame 21 where the next 19 frames I'm gonna be unable to tech and only further the fail window another ?40? frames by pressing it?

If I input a hard press (tech), and then input another hard press 5 frames later I blew my ability to tech right? And now it's gonna be 40 frames more of a no tech starting from whenever I press(ed) it again?

 

[tauKhan]

Thanks. So if I full press my L-cancel on accident, I should just refrain from ever trying to press tech again in case I get hit; and just hope I land in time from the 20 frames before I reach frame 21 where the next 19 frames I'm gonna be unable to tech and only further the fail window another ?40? frames by pressing it?

If I input a hard press (tech), and then input another hard press 5 frames later I blew my ability to tech right? And now it's gonna be 40 frames more of a no tech starting from whenever I press(ed) it again?

Yeah, that's it barring some possible hitlag oddities there might be.

 

[Rawfuls]

Sorry if this was asked already, but I'm old and I don't want to read through the whole thread =p. Similar to the dash dancing question above, can you share some general thoughts on tech chasing? How much of it is getting a hard read on the opponent, and how much of it is covering all the options? Do you have any general thoughts on how people will typically tech, or is it entirely dependent on whether the opponent themselves has the propensity to tech either towards the stage or away from their opponent? Then on the flip side as the person being chased, obviously mixing up your techs would help, but do you have any thoughts on when you should tech towards or away from the opponent? When should I be worried about making my opponent get it wrong versus when should I concern myself with which option is safer? Is the idea to do what you think they least expect, or is it more about conditioning your opponent into "knowing" you always tech away then changing?

Or do I just have the whole game wrong @.@

Also, ignore me if this is too general for the Falco thread.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Do you ever notice yourself blowing your tech window by missing a power shield or full pressing an L-cancel? If you full shield, or otherwise try to power shield something, but you did it late (like tried buffering it after a move) and got hit; technically I think it blows the next 40 frames after 20 or so to tech even though you did it while on the ground.

Have you ever thought of removing/modifying your controller's shoulder triggers/springs? I forget, but did you not like Rumble? You should tell me your opinion on the new Smash 4 controllers once you get a chance to have/play with one.

How do you feel about PM nerfing Falco's dair in PM?

Oh, why was Leffen able to trick you so well with Wait to Get-up Attack at MLG?

I don't know much about the tech window but I often find I can half press the button and get extended tech windows which is kinda neat.

I don't care much about the shoulder springs but I like having them for the feel of them. I wear them out quickly too lol.
I dislike rumble.

I think Falco's Dair was nerfed because it's too easy to DI in PM so it didn't need another one LOL. This new nerf feels mild in comparison. For the record, I don't think the DI nerf was intentional but it's still annoying.

In-game reason at Leffen: I was extremely, mindlessly, aggressive that match for some reason.

Out-game reason: Brain didn't function at all. Was very unaware overall in MLG/EVO(kinda Sktar as well) but only Leffen exploited it well that one game.



Edit: I'm glad many people found my post useful! =) If there is any more feedback on it people have, positive or negative or otherwise, I hope to see it!

 

[Jim Morrison]

Posts like those are great, there's wayyyy too little discussion about that mental aspect of the game. In part because it is such a hard concept to talk about, but it really helps people leveling up when they read about this stuff instead of figuring it out after playing 10000 hours.

 

[victinivcreate1]

@ Dr Peepee

I'm wondering, its a question that has always made me think, what are the differences between your and Mango's Falco play? I feel like its something very obvious, but I fail to see it.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Posts like those are great, there's wayyyy too little discussion about that mental aspect of the game. In part because it is such a hard concept to talk about, but it really helps people leveling up when they read about this stuff instead of figuring it out after playing 10000 hours.

For whatever reason, it is getting more publicity in sports the last few years and of course this has found a way to trickle down to esports a bit it seems haha. I often say that it is funny to only discuss the mechanics of the game when you have to play as a human with those game mechanics. How YOU can play the game best has to include YOU.

@ Dr Peepee

I'm wondering, its a question that has always made me think, what are the differences between your and Mango's Falco play? I feel like its something very obvious, but I fail to see it.

The really, super simple answer is that we are two different people so we could not play the game the same if we tried.

However, I'll step back from that and add that Mango comes from a Puff background and an IRL background based on becoming heavily invested in observation and people. I, by contrast, come from a Falco background and an IRL background based on book reading, somewhat competitive running, and the typical modern model of schooling which is to avoid failure and be safe(I have done work to break some of the bad parts of this, but it nonetheless influences my play.) Neither of these is inherently better than the other but the contrast suggesting we can both succeed when we round ourselves out and give it our all is inspiring and exciting I think.

 

[sadistic]

Are you ever planning on doing some breakdowns of your favorite matches? I learned a lot just from the commentary you've done on other player's games!

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yeah I will DEFINITELY do lots of that on my stream which is coming in like a month. =)

 

[Jackson]

Yeah I will DEFINITELY do lots of that on my stream which is coming in like a month. =)

awesome, im really excited for that.

 

[Stalled]

Yeah I will DEFINITELY do lots of that on my stream which is coming in like a month. =)

Hype.

Also anyone got any advice for what to actually do once I get a grab? it seems like unless im in a spot to throw them offstage I dont really get anything off grabs.

 

[Goodin]

So i have 2 problems right now with the ditto.
First of all I need some help with shine out of shield. I can do the input fine and waveland/ aerial after the shine but its actually getting the shine vs other falco's pressure that I mess up. So alot of the time, say if a falco is on a platform above me and they try to drop down and dair me, i have my shield angled up and i try to shine them between the dair and their own incoming shine but one of 2 things usually happens:
1) their shine hits my feet since i am angling my shield up and i cannot get my shine out fast enough
2) they get to the ground and shine faster than i can jump out and shine, so they usually end up shining me when i jump out of shield.
Is it best to try and shine them before they can land and shine or should I not angle my shield up and just shine them after their own shine rather than before it.Usually if I wait until after their shine to use a shine of my own I spot dodge due to shieldstun but thats more of me just being to hasty and hitting down before my jump comes out.
So is it best to angle shield up and try to hit high arials before the opponent can shine or should i just try to shine them after their own shine
Secondly i have problems with the laser game. A person i play with really loves to spam lasers in the neutal and i never feel like i can run in and beat the lasers. Do i use my own lasers to force them to approach if they just wanna sit there and laser or is there actual options to beat it. going to platforms works decently but i just end up giving up ground space. In high level falco play there is usually never any dumb laser stand offs so I can't really analyze videos to learn.

so in short...
1) when is it best to shine out of shield vs other falco's pressure
2) how do you win the laser fight/ work around it

 

[Twilight Emblem]

Sup goodin. I've got some ideas to share but just take what I say with a grain of salt since i'm still trying to get good at the game. If anybody feels i'm being misleading with this advice/giving bad advice feel free to step in.

So you've got a person to play smash with IRL? Thats good stuff. What you can do on top of the other advice here for your situation is ask if your friend will replicate that situation over and over with you for an hour or 2 or more each day you can play with them until you figure out how to do it. So just have him drop on you over and over with these. If thats too much time just 30 min is a big difference there.Since that situation involves some reaction time you want to do things that will help with your reaction time. Like being hydrated, having warm hands from like a hot shower or something, having slept well the night before, exercise in general.

Thats what I do over here with my training partner. It really helps to isolate those situations where you're messing up because I find if you're just butting heads in games over and over it gets hard to fine tune that small stuff in the middle of games like that.

Like my belief is i'm not going to spontaneously learn how to waveshine opponents by doing matches over and over. Gotta learn it solo and let me practice it on them as voluntary punchingbags with human DI. Its good that you're being mindful of things you can't do and trying to focus on fixing those.

Edit- lol Tbh after this post i'm going to steer clear of making " helpful posts" until I get tournament results backing me up

 

[Goodin]

Sup goodin. I've got some ideas to share but just take what I say with a grain of salt since i'm still trying to get good at the game. If anybody feels i'm being misleading with this advice/giving bad advice feel free to step in.

So you've got a person to play smash with IRL? Thats good stuff. What you can do on top of the other advice here for your situation is ask if your friend will replicate that situation over and over with you for an hour or 2 or more each day you can play with them until you figure out how to do it. So just have him drop on you over and over with these. If thats too much time just 30 min is a big difference there.Since that situation involves some reaction time you want to do things that will help with your reaction time. Like being hydrated, having warm hands from like a hot shower or something, having slept well the night before, exercise in general.

Thats what I do over here with my training partner. It really helps to isolate those situations where you're messing up because I find if you're just butting heads in games over and over it gets hard to fine tune that small stuff in the middle of games like that.

Like my belief is i'm not going to spontaneously learn how to waveshine opponents by doing matches over and over. Gotta learn it solo and let me practice it on them as voluntary punchingbags with human DI. Its good that you're being mindful of things you can't do and trying to focus on fixing those.

Edit- lol Tbh after this post i'm going to steer clear of making " helpful posts" until I get tournament results backing me up

Thanks for the info, im not completely new or anything, i just need to learnwhen to shine oos and when not to lol. Ty for the info tho

 

[Oskurito]

Hype.

Also anyone got any advice for what to actually do once I get a grab? it seems like unless im in a spot to throw them offstage I dont really get anything off grabs.

A couple of grabs were used here:

http://gfycat.com/IncompatibleColorfulBalloonfish

 

[Pr0fessor Flash]

@ Dr Peepee how can you tell when to use Falco Lasers or not?

 

[Stalled]

A couple of grabs were used here:

http://gfycat.com/IncompatibleColorfulBalloonfish

Never occurred to me to SHL after a throw

@ Dr Peepee how can you tell when to use Falco Lasers or not?

second

 

[Pr0fessor Flash]

Never occurred to me to SHL after a throw

second

Ok

 

[Dr Peepee]

@ Dr Peepee how can you tell when to use Falco Lasers or not?

Your question is impossible to easily answer since it's too broad. All I can say is I'll shoot when I'm either far away or they're not very likely to hit me for lasering.

 

[Pr0fessor Flash]

Your question is impossible to easily answer since it's too broad. All I can say is I'll shoot when I'm either far away or they're not very likely to hit me for lasering.

Well I heard from someone that you don't just throw them out just because and use them only to approach or stop another persons approach.

 

[Jim Morrison]

That depends on your level of play. If you recognize you're playing vs an opponent who has no idea how to handle lasers, throw them out a lot and capitalize on it. There's just so many different aspects to lasering, you could probably write a 5-page long guide about lasers from low to high level, offense to defense, mindgames to pressure.

 

[Bones0]

That depends on your level of play. If you recognize you're playing vs an opponent who has no idea how to handle lasers, throw them out a lot and capitalize on it. There's just so many different aspects to lasering, you could probably write a 5-page long guide about lasers from low to high level, offense to defense, mindgames to pressure.

I could write a 5-page long guide just about dealing with people who PS your lasers. The entirety of Falco's laser game would take a novel... lol

 

[Circle_Breaker]

Does crouching shine beat Fox's drill and or nair cleanly? I've done it a few times, but has anyone tested?

 

[SSS]

All the matchup stuff is pretty outdated. Stages against Peach?

 

[orvs]

hey guys question about frame data in the falco hitboxes thread. there are quite a few moves that falco has that are interrupt able on a certain frame. like downtilt is IASA frame 28 of the move. however there are some moves like f-tilt that appear to have none. does it mean that this move doesnt have an IASA frame at all? or does it mean that it does have an IASA frame, but we just don't know?

 

[Bones0]

hey guys question about frame data in the falco hitboxes thread. there are quite a few moves that falco has that are interrupt able on a certain frame. like downtilt is IASA frame 28 of the move. however there are some moves like f-tilt that appear to have none. does it mean that this move doesnt have an IASA frame at all? or does it mean that it does have an IASA frame, but we just don't know?

It means it just doesn't have any interruptable frames.

 

[SpiderMad]

It means it just doesn't have any interruptable frames.

Was lasering with Falco always suppose to press the B button ASAP or the FFall ASAP, and adjust the other's timing for the lower lasers.

 

[Bones0]

Was lasering with Falco always suppose to press the B button ASAP or the FFall ASAP, and adjust the other's timing for the lower lasers.

Idk what you're trying to say, but there aren't many things you should "always" do in Melee. Most options have uses, even if they're very niche ones.