PPMD's Falco Discussion Thread

[Rubyiris]

I'm down for critique from anybody, and everybody. Even if you aren't "good."

 

[Wenbobular]

Wait that's KP from Virginia?

 

[FoxLisk]

but i don't actually practice my fox any more....except when people ask for fox practice specifically

that's bull****, you also practice fox when you feel like nairshining and giggling about how broken he is

 

[Bones0]

wtH??? i've never played ICs in my life..well there was that one summer where i memorized all the desynchs and chaingrabs that i could, but i forgot all of them

i mained marth one year, mained fox 2, and now have mained marth two more..but i didn't play much except the last 2 years.

so basically i have a good fox secondary, a mediocre jiggs and a mediocre falco..

but i don't actually practice my fox any more....except when people ask for fox practice specifically

Oh... I could have sworn when Mahone and I were talking about cps he was telling me about how he suggested you just go FD/ICs vs. Sheik players. >_>

Wait that's KP from Virginia?

luuuuulz

 

[Druggedfox]

Does anyone not figure that sometimes people want to start anew so they pick another character that won't have all of their old bad habits? <.<

Loool this ***** here

 

[Meneks]

Impossible. The only fully transferable skill between characters is bad habits

lolwat?

Fully transferable??

If I main Falco and lets say my secondary is marth, and I'm playing a ganon or something while using marth, and I switch to falco I doubt all of my bad MARTH habits will transfer over.

DI is different.
The way you move being combo'd is different(redundant lol)
Different moves.
different attacks
different recovery options etc etc you get the point

If I have the bad habit of dolphin slashing, do you think thats going to transfer over to Falco? No.

Btw reading and tech chasing can be transferable between characters, so idk where you got that idea lol

 

[Mahone]

jesus christ he's joking lol... wtf

 

[FoxLisk]

lolwat?

Fully transferable??

If I main Falco and lets say my secondary is marth, and I'm playing a ganon or something while using marth, and I switch to falco I doubt all of my bad MARTH habits will transfer over.

DI is different.
The way you move being combo'd is different(redundant lol)
Different moves.
different attacks
different recovery options etc etc you get the point

If I have the bad habit of dolphin slashing, do you think thats going to transfer over to Falco? No.

Btw reading and tech chasing can be transferable between characters, so idk where you got that idea lol

...are you like literally ********

 

[Meneks]

Since when was habit a skill.. Are you ********?

 

[Beat!]

lolwat?

Fully transferable??

If I main Falco and lets say my secondary is marth, and I'm playing a ganon or something while using marth, and I switch to falco I doubt all of my bad MARTH habits will transfer over.

DI is different.
The way you move being combo'd is different(redundant lol)
Different moves.
different attacks
different recovery options etc etc you get the point

If I have the bad habit of dolphin slashing, do you think thats going to transfer over to Falco? No.

Btw reading and tech chasing can be transferable between characters, so idk where you got that idea lol

...................................................

lol

I guess I shouldn't be talking since I also respond seriously to jokes sometimes, but this one just takes the CAKE HAPPY NOW SVEET?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

...................................................

lol

I guess I shouldn't be talking since I also respond seriously to jokes sometimes, but this one just takes the price.

Cake. NOOB!

 

[Beat!]

LOL it's called "taking the price" in swedish I'm so ****ing dumb XD

 

[Bones0]

Since when was habit a skill.. Are you ********?

I have the habit of tech rolling away vs. Jiggs. This is a valuable skill to have in the matchup. Being able to habitually respond to different situations is one of the most important skills in Melee. Without these skills, you will just get gimmicked across the screen due to bad DI, tech reads, OoS options, etc. Only after you've developed these skills by creating good habits can you even begin to learn mixups (i.e. situations where the best decision is too predictable so it becomes the worst decision).

Spoiler

Oh, hey, it's Strife 3.0!

lol @ "taking the price"

Yo guys, my favorite game show is The Cake is Right

Spoiler

(or a Lie)

 

[Beat!]

If english was your secondary language, you'd mix up the idioms too every once in a while. =(((((((((((

/johns

 

[Bones0]

If english was your secondary language, you'd mix up the idioms too every once in a while. =(((((((((((

/johns

In Sweden they probably say "No toilets."

*waits to see if Swedes get the joke*

 

[ShroudedOne]

The fundamentals of Melee include things that are universal to each character, so a habit that is rooted in understanding the fundamentals (like tech rolling away vs Puff) can be a skill in the sense that you have honed that skill to where it becomes innate (thus becoming a habit).

I don't know if that makes sense, though.

And yeah, I got it Bones. I laughed. =D

 

[knightpraetor]

this is offtopic now, but mahone does mention that to me all the time...but ICs are too strange..would rather learn fox/falco/jiggs against sheik

main thing is i just need a sheik main to practice against for dozens of hours, that and a ganon main..blackchris never comes to visit.i said i'd put him up

also i mostly retired my fox...only going to keep a fox vs jiggs now for mahone's practice..the rest i plan to forget

 

[wootayng]

do you guys have a hard time comboing lvl9 marth?

 

[Wenbobular]

The real question is why are you playing against level 9 Marth

 

[Mastermooseman]

I heard lvl9s DI only UP, but lvl 1s and 3s don't, also Wenbobular what happened to Cactuar's Tech thread with the metronome? Was it a troll?

 

[Wenbobular]

No, it's just no longer there ... I think he took it down
http://advanced.bestmetronome.com/
That's the metronome link, I think it's 3600 bpm matches 60 frames per second

Everything else is up to you haha
He also posted an excel file, although if he took the thread down then maybe he wants to keep it a secret xD

 

[Bl@ckChris]

this is offtopic now, but mahone does mention that to me all the time...but ICs are too strange..would rather learn fox/falco/jiggs against sheik

main thing is i just need a sheik main to practice against for dozens of hours, that and a ganon main..blackchris never comes to visit.i said i'd put him up

also i mostly retired my fox...only going to keep a fox vs jiggs now for mahone's practice..the rest i plan to forget

i keep forgetting lol. i end up going to closer places like chapel hill. only time i could make my way up there in the foreseeable future would be in two weeks, on the 14th. but since i'm going out of town the subsequent weekends for tournaments, idk if i wanna drive that much 3 weeks straight...i'll let you know though.

also, you'd probably be better off playing your fox against me in future tournaments. i'm pretty hit and miss against that character. certain play styles destroy me, and i only end up punishing certain bad unsafe things that foxes tend to do. either that, or just play sheik and learn how to space ftilt/downtilt and you'll be fine. ganon is not that scary

 

[knightpraetor]

lol, if i was willing to win with secondaries i would go sheik...marth forever dude..i'm only willing to switch if i consider the matchup blatantly imbalanced, and who could watch pp's set with chadd and think that

edit: however i approve of you picking up a secondary, as opposed to trying to play ganon vs sheik and losing like every other ganon

 

[Dr Peepee]

I don't think any players of mid-and-under characters should acquire secondaries for tourney use until they get to high level, because they will always get outplayed by players before matchups truly come into play up until that point. Even at high level(though not top), lots of fairly difficult matchups can still be doable(see: Axe).

 

[knightpraetor]

sorry I can't agree. I don't deny that you could probably beat me with your ganon even if i went sheik..but at roughly even skill level, the ganon is doing a lot more work than the sheik in terms of staying safe, efficiency and consistency of combos, and edgeguarding. For example at the last tourney in NC, redd completely flubbed his edgeguard sheik vs ganon, so you'd think the ganon would survive. But not so, he then falls nair trades with the ganon, (why did i write this..he didn't trade it just hits..the point is that sheik just throws out moves and can throw them out in so many spots that ganon dies even if your edgeguarding is sloppy and it takes longer than it should)


gets back on stage and does the whole thing again...not to mention he has bair into bair for edgeguarding with sheik and if ganon goes over he just reverse fairs and kills the ganon. These edgeguards are all automatic, while i don't even think ganon has guaranteed edgeguards against sheik. I mean at super high level maybe ganon can get enough hits in that it makes up for the simplicity and ease of sheik's combos and edgeguards, but at low levels if anything it is far worse as one mistake == get chaingrabbed, while ganon doesn't have ftilt/dtilt/jab to cover against getting grabbed after his aerials (not to mention crouch)

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

PP means theres no point in learning a secondary in that scenario. If you pick up a top tier because of match-ups, you should actually be maining him. If you are actually going to main the lower tier character, you need to learn how to beat opponents by making 0 mistakes and exploiting the ones your opponent makes. The only time a serious lower tier main should pick up a secondary is at the absolute top where neither side is making mistakes, and even then it isn't necessarily needed.

 

[Dr Peepee]

"Roughly even skill level" doesn't matter until high level play, which again is debatable. People fluctuate in their abilities too much and can have inefficient holes in their gameplay exploited so that they lose and skew matchup perceptions(this is how Axe happened/happens imo) until they reach top level play.

Yes all of those things you said means Ganon should lose at top level.


Edit: What Sveet said.

 

[Bones0]

PP is just saying that for the average smasher, picking up a secondary is just a shortcut. A spacie main may want to pick up Sheik as a secondary because they keep getting gimped by Marth, but that's dumb because they should just learn to stop getting gimped. Would they do better sooner by switching to Sheik? Sure, but in the long term it becomes harder to maintain because it's not your main, and you can't just have a secondary for every matchup that you get destroyed in for some random reason.

 

[ShroudedOne]

I think I made a Samus main switch to Shiek after I won vs him in tourney. :\ (I wish I were lying)

Needless to say, word is that his Sheik does much worse.

 

[JPOBS]

Mid tier and lower have one huge advantage in that the majority of people have little to no experience in the matchup, and a mid tier player can get away with a lot more bad habits because people don't recognize them as exploitable.

A low tier main may have a pocket sheik that is just as good as their main, but everyone knows the sheik matchup so you get exposed when you try to use her, even if she is better as a character than luigi.

You're better off just playing whatever character you want.

 

[stabbedbyanipple]

PP, in detail, what do you think of Weston's falco??

 

[Little England]

To Unknown, PP and others who feel they know the Sheik MU:

Kels plays a really gay sheik. A lot of running to the ledge and waiting for me to **** up so he can gimp me. See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UprcL5KV64

I tried camping back in the middle of the stage/platforms, but I just kind of get impatient and go after him. It's exactly what he wants. He tells me to just stay in the middle. Is that what I should do? Can I beat his gayness head to head? How do I beat this consistently? Once I figure this out I can stop this guy for good. lol

 

[Rubyiris]

vids from yestrday's monthly. I'm going to NYTE, so any, and all critique is greatly appreciated. I want to do well.

Vs Wobbles (Pools)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5wR...pcFMsEsxxoJJKNd-MTMThaNGtdkat1XBl1YU=#t=46m0s

Vs Tai (LB)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8b4A...DvjVQa1PpcFMsEsxxoJJKNS98vPOuHTL9h1Ts3iAfEhg=

 

[Dr Peepee]

PP, in detail, what do you think of Weston's falco??

I'm treating this as an April Fool's question.

@Critiques: omfg I have so many critiques I should do <.< I'll try to get to you guys

 

[Rubyiris]

As long as you get to mine before Thursday, I'm good.

 

[JPOBS]

I'm treating this as an April Fool's question.

This made me lol hard.

 

[unknown522]

@ Remen, Lil England, and Ruby:

I'll give you guys a write up in the next day or 2. I had some computer/internet/phone issues, so I wasn't able to watch. Anyways, I just decided to download the vids, so I'm gonna watch them tonight.

 

[Little England]

Thanks. Go hard on me.

 

[Rubyiris]

Nice. :3

 

[Dr Peepee]

Teams

Might do critiques in a minute, but I wanna talk about teams. That's the cool thing to discuss right now.


How should Falco best be played in teams? Is there more than one way? Which are his ideal teammates and how should they be played in conjunction with him? What are his best teams stages? Are there little nuances involving lasers that are discovered or could be discovered that could make Falco more deadly in teams?

These are the questions we should answer(among others) when thinking about Falco in teams I believe.


"How should Falco best be played in teams?"

Falco, in my opinion, should be a support character in teams. He teeters between a support character and a standalone one though due to his great control over the stage and solid pressure he can place on his opponents. I mention him primarily as a support character because his laser can only connect with one target, and with two opponents his laser is even harder to get out than before. Also, Falco's slow horizontal mobility, both in the air and on the ground, hinder his ability to adjust position well in order to take charge or retreat when momentum shifts, so he may not be able to flow with the pace of play as well as other characters. Lasers admittedly help him when momentum in his favor though so the issue lies mostly when it gets reversed on him. He may also struggle with getting kills quickly since he can't smash floaties upward for quite a while %-wise and his Dair/Dsmash edgeguards at lower percents sometimes require multiple successful hits to kill. Shine also sends people flying into the air in a floaty-like state so Falco has to combo using more Uptilts and Dairs/Dsmashes, possibly a more demanding way to play in terms of reads(forces to techs often with any more than one Dair, which will be required to keep a mid-percent combo going quickly).


So, Falco must play support in my opinion, with the occasional switch to standalone teams character. He can circumvent his mobility issues by hugging center stage and comboing off of his partner/lasering/walling the other player away. His own quick kill issues can be avoided by using more Dairs and uptilts in combos instead of shines. I don't have an answer for him dying in teams except to hold the center better lol.

Sort of answered 1 and 2 there whups lol. The other way Falco could be played is, against certain characters/players he can control them easily with lasers and superior hitboxes while setting up lofty hits/tech chases for his opponent to send back to him/finish. Alternatively, his partner could be someone who feeds him characters just beyond the edge(say, Puff with her moderately weak Bairs/Fairs/Nairs) and he gets spikes in that way.


Ideal teammates?

Well, this is mostly theorycrafting for me, since I've pretty much ALWAYS teamed with Fox lol. Fox though, can be a feeder or a go-getter in teams, but I find it better when Fox is on the attack on my team. Falco benefits from aggressive Fox by pushing opponents into easy combo finishers for Fox, controls momentum/pace of the game well once Fox gains momentum, and can save really high up-Bs with lasers(crucial since Fox can live longer than Falcon teams despite being the aggressive character). This team may lose to floaty teams that break momentum for the spacies, but honestly these two characters probably have the team combo potential and the speed+pressure abilities to hand it right back to floaties.


Peach: Floating over lasers sounds sick lol. Then being able to shield pressure along with her would be amazing since her pressure is so solid. Peach's ground game is also pretty great(thanks to CC) so Falco can laser over Peach's head if he wants to cover jumps as Peach pressures/gets grabs. Peach could also save really well(float out Dair+turnips+up-B) and Falco would never really need to save Peach aside from harassing people away from the edge usually, something Falco is great at doing. This team would be kind of weak to other floaties potentially because Falco/Peach couldn't kill them quickly, but it is possible they would get more control. Fox may also give this team a hard time because he is fast, but he also dies very quickly to Peach in teams and moderately quickly to Falco in teams so it may be okay to fight against him.


Puff: Same thing as Peach, except instead of great pressure, Falco can shine/kick/grab things into Puff rest and wake her up with lasers LOL. Falco or Puff could take charge most likely, but it'd be best if the other followed behind for spikes/smashes/rests, and in Puff's forward case, laser support.


Just doing a couple of these for now to get started.


Best stages?

I think Falco is better on bigger stages in teams, but honestly as long as it's not Yoshi's Story he's probably fine. Falco's weaknesses in teams(longer-seeming laser time, less mobility combined with less overall range, gimped quickly and easily) all seem to stand out the most there. At least on BF he can go high or retreat under the platform to take refuge. In YS, he wouldn't be going very far to be under a platform already so he might not even make it before he is hit when he recognizes a problem situation. FD can be good when he has advantage since he can spike without worrying about platforms allowing the opponent more escape routes from combos, but it also allows him to be CG'd/death comboed easily. I'd say his best teams stage is PS since it's big enough for him to shoot, has a lower ceiling for shine kills/team combos off the top, as well as closer side blast zones so Falco doesn't have to Bair forever to kill floaties when they are at higher percents.


Laser nuances?

Using laser resets/tech roll stops from across the stage could be amazing in teams. Having lasers bounce off a teammate's shield could be amazing at countering an approach and setting up a combo/kill. Controlling an opponent's recovery long enough for his partner to set up an edgeguard. These are just some things I'd like to work on in teams eventually...or allow someone else to work on and tell me about it lol.




Anyway, this is my somewhat brief Falco in teams post. What do you guys think?