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Everything You Never Wanted To Know About SHAD

Thinkaman

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One tool I have never really incorporated into my game much is the Short Hop Air Dodge, or SHAD.

There's a few reasons for this. One is that I game from Melee, where a SHAD is literally a wavedash; it was awkward to transition to the idea of that input doing an entirely different thing. Second, SHADs vary wildly across characters. Since later in Brawl's life, I've played a lot of characters (Aside: Terrible idea. Stay in school and pick a main, kids.), which means that without even realizing it or intending to, I gravitated towards developing skills where the muscle memory could transition easily between the dozen or so characters I liked.

But it's almost 8 years since Brawl's release, so it's about time I learn how the hell SHADs work. Come join me on this journey--I promise there will only be one graph.

SHAD Disadvantages (compared to ground dodges):
  • Startup is significantly worse
  • Endlag varies wildly based on the next option in question, but all are still consistently significantly worse
  • On some characters, certain next options may just not be possible or be restricted by landing lag
  • Raises the hurtbox of the character during later vulnerability frames, allowing some tall moves and projectiles to connect
SHAD Advantages (compared to ground dodges):
  • Invincibility duration is significantly longer (around 24 frames rather than around 14)
  • You retain aerial control during every part of the SHAD after jump-squat (though you can't fast-fall)
  • Raises the hurtbox of the character during some vulnerability frames, allowing some ground-hugging moves and projectiles to miss
I like to think of SHAD as an expensive but flexible defensive option. It mathematically sucks, but it can be a forward, stationary, or backwards dodge, and you don't have to decide which until well after the invincibility has begun and you've seen the opponent's move. You are basically cheating!

Defensive moves only matter if they put you at a frame advantage over the opponent--if the defensive option has less endlag than the offensive option it avoided. In other words, having such an expensive, long dodge does mean both that there are fewer attacks that SHAD "beats" and that it offers significantly less reward. This is the price you pay for "cheating."

SHAD options and reward also vary wildly by character. I think it's time for the chart; Merry Christmas:



Let's break it down.

First, note that even the best SHAD in the game (no matter how you define that) is mathematically worse than a Samus roll in every way. Even the fastest options out of the best SHADs will yield negative frame advantage against a wide spread of options, including jabs, most tilts, most grabs, and MK f-smash! SHAD will only yield any benefit against medium-slow moves like uncharged smashes and stuff like Needle Storm. Otherwise, you can at best damage control by using your "cheating" to create distance or cross-up the attacker, and minimize the utility of their frame advantage.

Second, let's explain the phases of a typical SHAD:
  1. Startup vulnerability
  2. Invincibility period
  3. Aerial FAF; you can now double jump or perform a special, as well as toss an item or start an aerial (but only come aerial are fast enough generate a hitbox before...)
  4. Ground FAF; the character lands, and can before their entire standing moveset, including grab, shield, and other defensive options
Having a good, fast ground FAF on your SHAD means you probably have zero aerial options since the window is too right. Inversely, if you can do your entire aerial moveset out of a SHAD before touching the ground, the timing for doing ground options is probably terrible.

:4link::4lucas::4samus::4tlink::4zss: also have a Zair option, which can interrupt the air dodge at any time. I'm not going to go into that in more detail here.

Some characters cannot SHAD into a ground option without incurring air dodge landing lag. There characters fall into 3 different functional groupings, based on how severe this window is.

:4sheik::4metaknight::4greninja::4lucas::4falco::4falcon::4charizard: can still perform aerial options 2 frames before landing. Because Sheik dair is the only aerial across these characters that can be done without landing in 2 frames, this really just means double jump and specials.

However, do note that doing a special on the first frame will result in an aerial version, while doing it on exactly the second frame will result in doing the move on frame of landing and getting a grounded version. This distinction can be critical for Needles, Vanish, Shuttle Loop, PK Fire, Raptor Boost, Falcon Kick, and others.

These characters can also start an aerial to avoid landing lag.

:4link::4bowser: can perform "aerial" options for exactly 1 frame as they land. This means no aerials or double jump, only specials. They will always get the grounded version of their specials, which is frankly good news. They can also throw items during this frame, which is vastly more relevant to one of these characters than the other.

:4fox::4megaman::4feroy::4ryu::4ganondorf: can do nothing, and will always incur landing lag from a SHAD. I have included the FHADs of these characters in the chart as well, for comparison. Fox's is very competitive with the SHADs of most other characters from a mathematical standpoint; the rest, not so much. Ryu is probably better off sticking to down-b shenanigans, and the rest are terrible.

Note that none of this reflects the multitude of factors concerning aerial movespeed, which dictates exactly how good each character is at "cheating."

Who has the best SHAD? It's too complex and involves too many factors to crown a winner, but I'll talk about some I find interesting:

:4zss::4pikachu::4diddy::4duckhunt: have the fastest startup, and really good aerial-focused timings too on top of solid aerial control. Do note that these characters already have great ground dodges though.

:4mewtwo:has the fastest aerial FAF, and fast startup. He also has great aerial control, and a boatload of really useful SHAD aerial options. Fair is amazing and can still come out fast-falled, but Disable and Shadow Ball shine here too. Confusion and Teleport are both interesting GTFO alternatives to double jump.

:4littlemac::4drmario::4wario2: have the fastest ground FAF and excel in different ways. While this is great for landing and grabbing (or more), these characters have aerial options too. Little Mac and Doc can both still pull out their weak nairs, or go for a high-reward ultra-fast up-b. Mac can also fish for a KO Punch window with less commitment than a roll, but in that situation I wouldn't expect such laggy moves. Wario has Waft and a frame 8 command grab. While Wario's SHAD startup is poor, he makes up for it with top-notch air control.

:4cloud: has some pretty good numbers all around, and can SHAD to break some limits on you.

:4marth::4lucina: :4olimar:have access to their entire (disjointed) aerial moveset on decent frame timings.

:4jigglypuff:has poor startup, poor aerial FAF, poor ground FAF, and yet no non-DJ options besides nair and Rest. But her aerial control is fantastic, and nair + Rest is all she needs.

:4lucas:might be prone to landing lag unless he starts an aerial, but he has both zair and a great option in PK fire if he can time that one frame.

:4sheik: ordinarily suffers landing lag without starting aerials and can't do any aerials but dair, but can still do Needles and Bouncing Fish. It will be interesting to see Sheik players finally integrate these moves into their playstyles.

:4link: has to do a grounded special, toss a bomb, or do a zair. All of his options are focused on drifting away from the opponent, but grounded up-b is a terrifying thing to suddenly have next to you.

:4bowser: has the worst startup, worst aerial or ground FAF, and can't do a single option except grounded specials. But one of those grounded specials is a reversible frame 8 command grab that does 18% and kills really early. Sure, it loses to spot dodge and rolls, but guess who has a frame 6 grounded special that beats spot dodge and rolls? Fire Breath and Bowser Bomb are nothing to write home about here, beat some options and are kinda hilarious.

:4fox: is the only character who should consider a FHAD, as explained. He still isn't super motivated to do so, but at least shine and side-b do give him plenty of GTFO possibilities.



Well, that's about it. Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go back to roll spamming.
 
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Wintropy

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THANK YOU.

No, seriously, this is a resource that's been in desperate need of being made. Gonna lab the hell out of this when I get the chance~
 

Jams.

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Good post.

You should note though that :4metaknight::4lucas::4sheik::4greninja::4falco::4falcon::4charizard: can use the early autocancel frames on their aerials to avoid endlag from a SHAD, also giving them the fastest possible ground FAF.
 

Nu~

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Good post.

You should note though that :4metaknight::4lucas::4sheik::4greninja::4falco::4falcon::4charizard: can use the early autocancel frames on their aerials to avoid endlag from a SHAD, also giving them the fastest possible ground FAF.
:4pacman: Can do so as well with his Bair, but has a certain timing. Bair early autocancels on frame 1-8. Pacman can exit his air dodge before this time however, so you can either get a full Bair out or the autocanceled one.


It's also important to note that Pacman can use every aerial out of SHAD, which is scary considering that a SH FF Nair -> trampoline is unpunishable on shield after the shield patch.


Edit: FF Bair out of SHAD is the fastest way to get the autocancel frames. Don't fastfall and you will get the bair with a hitbox.
 
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SaltyKracka

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Hmm, perhaps this will be good for Ganon- wait nope, his attributes are still the worst.

How very surprised I am.
 
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NotAnAdmin

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Awesome study!
Since cancelling the SHAD landing lag was already mentioned before for the 2 frame group I won't give you any more crap about it.
 

Sinister Slush

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It sucks that back then when Yoshidora was spamming SHAD some of us thought Yoshi finally had a decent neutral, but then slowly we realized that he was online only and that people can just simply roll away or stay in shield and get a free punish.

Roll Glory will be forever.
 

Vipermoon

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Yeah I'm also surprised you didn't mention the pre-hitbox autocancel frames. Sheik can do this all day. It's actually a good option for her even considering the numbers. Her jump has 3 frames of start-up and her short hop is 32 aerial frames. After taking 4 frames of landing lag from the autocancel, in total it's less than a 40 frame action. The invincibility in her roll is very short so here's another option.

SHAD loses to shield hard unless you can land pretty quickly with some sort of grab.

:4marth: before the Shield Breaker nerf could use that move after SHAD to scare away shields.
 
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Kofu

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:4sheik: ordinarily suffers landing lag without starting aerials and can't do any aerials but dair, but can still do Needles and Bouncing Fish. It will be interesting to see Sheik players finally integrate these moves into their playstyles.
DANG IT THINKAMAN

Game & Watch gets a little out of this in a similar vein to Sheik. He can do it normally without landing lag but the only aerial he can actually pull out and produce a hitbox before landing is DAir. Chef and Judge are still options (if wavebouncing these before landing is possible they would make decent spacing options), and you can fake people out by using BAir, making the animation start but incurring none of the usual lag.
 

bc1910

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Greninja Dair can be done without landing in the same vein as Sheik Dair. He'll never bounce off the opponent though, he'll always land with landing lag. At high percents this is a kill confirm for Usmash.
 

Luigi player

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Nice thread.

":4fox: is the only character who should consider a FHAD, as explained."

From experience, it feels like it's also useful for Megaman, since it's a good "out of jail" card after which he can also doublejump away. Rolls or running away can be read much easier and shielding isn't that safe as well. It can also help to avoid attacks after which he can (sometimes doubeljump) bair / fair or other stuff. Megamans jumpsquat also feels really small, so he jumps fast (which makes this a not too much startup-option), can fall really fast (if needed) and his aerial speed / deceleration is also great.
 

DungeonMaster

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Very nice to go to the trouble of tabulating everything!
There are a few things I don't understand - particularly the vulnerability frames.
There are vulnerability frames at the end of rolls, spot dodges and air-dodges.
The red initial bar makes sense to me, but there's no corresponding section after the pale blue. Did you roll those into the pale blue?
What are the green bars?! Their length does not make sense to me.
The gold aerial action also doesn't make sense to me, it looks like Samus has ~ 8 frames to work with, but Samus can get b-air out of her SH-AD which is definitely 9 frames, so something is not quite adding up.
There is also the 4 frame landing lag even if no action is input, I don't see that represented here.

Edit:
Ah ok, I think I understand the colors. Note: your statement that it's mathematically worse to roll than SHAD than a roll is wrong for Samus and you can see it in the table. She has several aerial frames to play with. Also note Samus can fast-fall out of her SHAD and a fast-fall up-air makes her land very quickly (often frame cancelling on impact).
 
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Thinkaman

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Very nice to go to the trouble of tabulating everything!
There are a few things I don't understand - particularly the vulnerability frames.
There are vulnerability frames at the end of rolls, spot dodges and air-dodges.
The red initial bar makes sense to me, but there's no corresponding section after the pale blue. Did you roll those into the pale blue?
What are the green bars?! Their length does not make sense to me.
The gold aerial action also doesn't make sense to me, it looks like Samus has ~ 8 frames to work with, but Samus can get b-air out of her SH-AD which is definitely 9 frames, so something is not quite adding up.
As labeled, the bars are NOT durations. They are simply comparative bar graphs of the various frame timings, overlaid for context and visual convenience.

There is also the 4 frame landing lag even if no action is input, I don't see that represented here.
The 2 frame soft landing time is included in all SHAD ground FAFs, and the character-specific 4/5/6 frame hard landing times are included in all the FHAD ground FAFs.

Note: your statement that it's mathematically worse to roll than SHAD than a roll is wrong for Samus and you can see it in the table. She has several aerial frames to play with. Also note Samus can fast-fall out of her SHAD and a fast-fall up-air makes her land very quickly (often frame cancelling on impact).
It only makes sense to compare ground FAF to ground dodges, since ground dodges only have a ground FAF, skipping the intermediate aerial period. (And standing options are almost always superior to aerial options, particularly because they include defensive options, grab, and fast transitions to all other states.)

If your point is that you can do aerials faster out of an air dodge than a roll... well, um, I guess you're not wrong...
 

Vyrnx

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If your point is that you can do aerials faster out of an air dodge than a roll... well, um, I guess you're not wrong...
But this is probably the biggest advantage of a shad, especially for characters with strong falli aerials. Shad is a good aerial spacing tool as well, since we can position during the shad before using a move, and if it turns out that move won't work, we can just retreat. I mean, shad is obviously like an aerial roll, but being able to act out of it with aerials is a big upside, if that's what Dungeonmaster meant. And thanks for this thread btw.
 
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Thinkaman

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I guess this is uniquely true for Samus, who not only can do aerial options faster out of a SHAC than ground options out of a roll, but also has very formidable aerial options (including specials) and a relatively poor standing options in this context. (I'm more afraid of a Samus bairing me than landing next to me and throwing out a jab or grab.)

I don't think anyone else is in this extreme of a case; Yoshi comes close but would still prefer to have his full ground moveset. (He only gets nair and uair aerials out of SHAD...)
 

Zapp Branniglenn

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:4bowser: really appreciates the short hop air dodge. All of his special moves are applicable to a variety of different situations. It's inherently more risky than staying grounded and keeping the opponent at punching distance, but it often baits equally risky choices from the opponent, who is expecting 22 frames of air dodge landing lag. We actually bypass any landing lag frames entirely.

I look forward to seeing other characters getting some mileage out of this technique.
 
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TheHypnotoad

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Jigglypuff can do this well due to the fact that she is floaty and has multiple jumps, so you can avoid the landing lag. It's an okay mix up if your opponent is expecting an aerial and either shields or tries to use their own attack to intercept you.
 

SirMouse

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Thanks for the information, Okar-I mean, uh, Thinkaman! It'll definitely be interesting to see how the meta continues to develop as options like these become more widely used and perfected by top players, and on a personal level, I'll keep your info in mind when I'm practicing in the future.

(Seriously though, whenever I see your avatar, I'm hit with the feels. Every. Friggin. Time.)
 

Nobie

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I think Mewtwo was very much designed with SHAD in mind, if only because, as you mention, SHAD Fair is very much a thing.

I was also thinking about how strong fair is, especially now, and how rare it is to see fast, high-damage forward aerials (most of them are either back airs, or are particularly slow). In fact, the only strong, fast fairs I can think of are like, Mewtwo, and Sweetspot Marth (maybe Roy?).
 

Masonomace

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Shulk is indeed limited with SHAD. Jump art's SHAD suffers the 4 frame Hard Lag landing & even Nair frame 14 is too slow so you get the 10 frame landing lag trying it. Speed art's SHAD suffers airdodge landing lag but you can interrupt with an aerial preferably Nair & take the 10 frames of landing lag for it OR you can use a special like Back Slash if you wished to cross-up from behind with it. Shield art's SHAD only takes the 2 frame Soft Lag landing so there's no need to do aerials for the sake of landing lag, but you can input a doublejump or special before landing if you wanted to (I wouldn't use a special. I'd just land or doublejump & fastfall away).

Now, with a tech for Shulk called MABD (Monado Art Buffered Deactivation). you apply this to Jump art & things get interesting. Jump art Buffered Deactivation allows Shulk to input a SHAD & you can input any aerial & the hitbox comes through. You can even perform two airdodges with a JABD before you land, but you get airdodge landing lag.
 
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YoshiYoshi

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I think Mario has a pretty ridiculous SHAD. He can Nair Bair or Uair.

I wouldn't view SHAD as a neutral tool, but it's great for getting hard reads against attack overaggressive. Yoshi's SHAD is good because you can land it on someone at +140% plus for the kill, you only need to do it once. It also has minor applications for quickly dodging an air attack and punishing with Uair (against someone like Marth).

SHAD isn't as powerful as it feels when you first start doing it, but to underutilized it is a shame because it's another tool to win the mind game.
 

Mario766

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Ike hss nothing. He can't do anything out of shad and his roll is better to use.


RIP
 

Linkshot

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:4palutena: is an interesting case because her model turns invisible during airdodge, forcing the opponent to commit to an entire-body option or blindly guess which side she's going to land on, as well as figure out where to roll to if she's dodging an attack. As an additional bonus, you can mix it up with FHAD and then reappear above your opponent, able to footstool out of any potential trouble or punish with invincible bAir if they jump up to meet you on reaction, which is especially tricky if you've conditioned them to look for SHAD already.
 

Xygonn

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One tool I have never really incorporated into my game much is the Short Hop Air Dodge, or SHAD.

There's a few reasons for this. One is that I game from Melee, where a SHAD is literally a wavedash; it was awkward to transition to the idea of that input doing an entirely different thing. Second, SHADs vary wildly across characters. Since later in Brawl's life, I've played a lot of characters (Aside: Terrible idea. Stay in school and pick a main, kids.), which means that without even realizing it or intending to, I gravitated towards developing skills where the muscle memory could transition easily between the dozen or so characters I liked.

But it's almost 8 years since Brawl's release, so it's about time I learn how the hell SHADs work. Come join me on this journey--I promise there will only be one graph.

SHAD Disadvantages (compared to ground dodges):
  • Startup is significantly worse
  • Endlag varies wildly based on the next option in question, but all are still consistently significantly worse
  • On some characters, certain next options may just not be possible or be restricted by landing lag
  • Raises the hurtbox of the character during later vulnerability frames, allowing some tall moves and projectiles to connect
SHAD Advantages (compared to ground dodges):
  • Invincibility duration is significantly longer (around 24 frames rather than around 14)
  • You retain aerial control during every part of the SHAD after jump-squat (though you can't fast-fall)
  • Raises the hurtbox of the character during some vulnerability frames, allowing some ground-hugging moves and projectiles to miss
I like to think of SHAD as an expensive but flexible defensive option. It mathematically sucks, but it can be a forward, stationary, or backwards dodge, and you don't have to decide which until well after the invincibility has begun and you've seen the opponent's move. You are basically cheating!

Defensive moves only matter if they put you at a frame advantage over the opponent--if the defensive option has less endlag than the offensive option it avoided. In other words, having such an expensive, long dodge does mean both that there are fewer attacks that SHAD "beats" and that it offers significantly less reward. This is the price you pay for "cheating."

SHAD options and reward also vary wildly by character. I think it's time for the chart; Merry Christmas:



Let's break it down.

First, note that even the best SHAD in the game (no matter how you define that) is mathematically worse than a Samus roll in every way. Even the fastest options out of the best SHADs will yield negative frame advantage against a wide spread of options, including jabs, most tilts, most grabs, and MK f-smash! SHAD will only yield any benefit against medium-slow moves like uncharged smashes and stuff like Needle Storm. Otherwise, you can at best damage control by using your "cheating" to create distance or cross-up the attacker, and minimize the utility of their frame advantage.

Second, let's explain the phases of a typical SHAD:
  1. Startup vulnerability
  2. Invincibility period
  3. Aerial FAF; you can now double jump or perform a special, as well as toss an item or start an aerial (but only come aerial are fast enough generate a hitbox before...)
  4. Ground FAF; the character lands, and can before their entire standing moveset, including grab, shield, and other defensive options
Having a good, fast ground FAF on your SHAD means you probably have zero aerial options since the window is too right. Inversely, if you can do your entire aerial moveset out of a SHAD before touching the ground, the timing for doing ground options is probably terrible.

:4link::4lucas::4samus::4tlink::4zss: also have a Zair option, which can interrupt the air dodge at any time. I'm not going to go into that in more detail here.

Some characters cannot SHAD into a ground option without incurring air dodge landing lag. There characters fall into 3 different functional groupings, based on how severe this window is.

:4sheik::4metaknight::4greninja::4lucas::4falco::4falcon::4charizard: can still perform aerial options 2 frames before landing. Because Sheik dair is the only aerial across these characters that can be done without landing in 2 frames, this really just means double jump and specials.

However, do note that doing a special on the first frame will result in an aerial version, while doing it on exactly the second frame will result in doing the move on frame of landing and getting a grounded version. This distinction can be critical for Needles, Vanish, Shuttle Loop, PK Fire, Raptor Boost, Falcon Kick, and others.

These characters can also start an aerial to avoid landing lag.

:4link::4bowser: can perform "aerial" options for exactly 1 frame as they land. This means no aerials or double jump, only specials. They will always get the grounded version of their specials, which is frankly good news. They can also throw items during this frame, which is vastly more relevant to one of these characters than the other.

:4fox::4megaman::4feroy::4ryu::4ganondorf: can do nothing, and will always incur landing lag from a SHAD. I have included the FHADs of these characters in the chart as well, for comparison. Fox's is very competitive with the SHADs of most other characters from a mathematical standpoint; the rest, not so much. Ryu is probably better off sticking to down-b shenanigans, and the rest are terrible.

Note that none of this reflects the multitude of factors concerning aerial movespeed, which dictates exactly how good each character is at "cheating."

Who has the best SHAD? It's too complex and involves too many factors to crown a winner, but I'll talk about some I find interesting:

:4zss::4pikachu::4diddy::4duckhunt: have the fastest startup, and really good aerial-focused timings too on top of solid aerial control. Do note that these characters already have great ground dodges though.

:4mewtwo:has the fastest aerial FAF, and fast startup. He also has great aerial control, and a boatload of really useful SHAD aerial options. Fair is amazing and can still come out fast-falled, but Disable and Shadow Ball shine here too. Confusion and Teleport are both interesting GTFO alternatives to double jump.

:4littlemac::4drmario::4wario2: have the fastest ground FAF and excel in different ways. While this is great for landing and grabbing (or more), these characters have aerial options too. Little Mac and Doc can both still pull out their weak nairs, or go for a high-reward ultra-fast up-b. Mac can also fish for a KO Punch window with less commitment than a roll, but in that situation I wouldn't expect such laggy moves. Wario has Waft and a frame 8 command grab. While Wario's SHAD startup is poor, he makes up for it with top-notch air control.

:4cloud: has some pretty good numbers all around, and can SHAD to break some limits on you.

:4marth::4lucina: :4olimar:have access to their entire (disjointed) aerial moveset on decent frame timings.

:4jigglypuff:has poor startup, poor aerial FAF, poor ground FAF, and yet no non-DJ options besides nair and Rest. But her aerial control is fantastic, and nair + Rest is all she needs.

:4lucas:might be prone to landing lag unless he starts an aerial, but he has both zair and a great option in PK fire if he can time that one frame.

:4sheik: ordinarily suffers landing lag without starting aerials and can't do any aerials but dair, but can still do Needles and Bouncing Fish. It will be interesting to see Sheik players finally integrate these moves into their playstyles.

:4link: has to do a grounded special, toss a bomb, or do a zair. All of his options are focused on drifting away from the opponent, but grounded up-b is a terrifying thing to suddenly have next to you.

:4bowser: has the worst startup, worst aerial or ground FAF, and can't do a single option except grounded specials. But one of those grounded specials is a reversible frame 8 command grab that does 18% and kills really early. Sure, it loses to spot dodge and rolls, but guess who has a frame 6 grounded special that beats spot dodge and rolls? Fire Breath and Bowser Bomb are nothing to write home about here, beat some options and are kinda hilarious.

:4fox: is the only character who should consider a FHAD, as explained. He still isn't super motivated to do so, but at least shine and side-b do give him plenty of GTFO possibilities.



Well, that's about it. Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go back to roll spamming.
SHAD is absurdly important for Samus. You say it is worse than her roll, but that simply isn't true. It has worse startup, but the FAF out of SHAD including the jumpsquat is frame 38, if you use uair, it's out by frame 42. That's faster than roll to jab with more invuln frames in the middle and you can change direction, and you can zair out of it. Furthermore, the reality is the invuln to attack frames window is MUCH shorter at 9 frames instead of 29 frames.

I'm not saying Samus has the best SHAD or anything, but that because it is in fact better than her roll she is forced to use it instead of roll.

I will talk about some of the advantages Samus has out of SHAD.

Soft hits of uair combos into upb (jab and dtilt) and at around 90% jab1 which can combo into fsmash. In other words, Samus gets a kill confirm out of her fastest SHAD option. Against a small set of characters with bad aerial and jab options utilt is also pretty good out of uair.

Nair and zair cover retreats pretty well especially because you can cancel the SHAD into Zair and SH Zair is probably Samus best zoning tool.

Bair is one of Samus' better moves and it is a kill move. Against many characters you can definitely SHAD to bair an opponent's dash attack for a kill (frame 46, or 13 frames between invuln and attack). Roll to fsmash is critically 3 frames longer overall, has 36 frames between invlun and attack, and is impossible to control spacing of.

A good post overall on SHAD. As a Samus player I use SHAD a lot and incorporate it into my olimar, G&W, doc, and cloud games.

Edit to Add: Sorry about all the Samus mains jumping down your throat. After I finished typing and sending everyone had their two cents in. We love you, we promise.
 
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BigHairyFart

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So :4greninja: can buffer any aerial(except D-Air) after a SHAD and still autocancel. I'd say that's a pretty good tool to have, since most of his standing options are really fast. I like the idea of jumping through projectiles and getting an F-Smash for the kill.
 

Loota

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Lucario has really good variety of options out of SHAD and they're all pretty useful too. It's has become a pretty central part of my game and has proven to be pretty invaluable at times.

- Can delay the airdodge for a bit and still get it autocancelled (or cancelled with nair's tiny 4 frame landing lag).
- Nair has nonexistent landing lag and is heavily disjointed in front of Lucario. Leads to further combos too.
- Dair is really good for microspacing coupled with a midair jump. The midair jump also easily results in a footstool for a guaranteed dair. Can also lead to techchases at low % or jab resets with AS.
- Uair sweetspot kills out of it though it has to be spaced carefully. Leads to juggles too with both sour and sweetspot.
- Aura Sphere charge is a kill confirm (alongside being a good combo starter) and it can be b-reversed to fake out opponents or to just space the charging hitbox better.
- Force Palm grab can be initiated in the air to have the grab activated on frame 1 when landing.

So in the end, there's the option to stuff out any not well disjointed moves, options to deal effectively or beat shields, options to kill opponents shielding or not, mobility option to either setup kills or just to fake out and... dair being good at whatever describes it best, coupled with some flexibility with the timings of these moves. I'm not familiar on how the majority of the cast appreciates the option but I'd wager Lucario is one of the characters to get the most out of it even if his airdodge numbers itself aren't the brightest. Those small mobility buffs also universally strengthen the technique to be a little better than before.

Oh, and everything good that has been said about Samus' SHAD is probably true, uair and bair alone make it really good. Her rolls are relatively quite bad too which makes it even more valuable to her.
 

ParanoidDrone

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:4palutena: is an interesting case because her model turns invisible during airdodge, forcing the opponent to commit to an entire-body option or blindly guess which side she's going to land on, as well as figure out where to roll to if she's dodging an attack. As an additional bonus, you can mix it up with FHAD and then reappear above your opponent, able to footstool out of any potential trouble or punish with invincible bAir if they jump up to meet you on reaction, which is especially tricky if you've conditioned them to look for SHAD already.
Rosalina also turns invisible, but Luma tags along and an astute opponent can use this to figure out her position. This doesn't apply if Luma is dead or desynced.

That said I haven't actually looked into what her SHAD options are.
 

Linkshot

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Rosalina also turns invisible, but Luma tags along and an astute opponent can use this to figure out her position. This doesn't apply if Luma is dead or desynced.

That said I haven't actually looked into what her SHAD options are.
I'd assume Rosa is floaty enough to do SHAD -> Luma-only aerial, right?
 

LancerStaff

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SHAD has some interesting applications for Pit, although he needs to double jump out of it to do anything besides cancelling the AD's lag. SHADDJ? Actually, I'm wondering if anybody else gets anything good off of it now that I mention it...

Pit can autocancel most anything, if not anything out of a SHADDJ. (Rolling with it...) It's especially good with Nair because in practice it's as good as any other really fast SHAD option even though he's going though another jump because it's a multihit move with a great autocancel. If it's possible to use that kill setup in this situation... Yeah, sounds important.
 

ParanoidDrone

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I'd assume Rosa is floaty enough to do SHAD -> Luma-only aerial, right?
Yeah, as long as she has a spare frame to act before landing, she can do a lunar landing no problem. More frames is more leeway, of course, and with enough frames she can put out her own hitboxes as well.

I just haven't gotten around to actually testing any of this myself.
 
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