Essential Knowledge For Fighting Against Peach

[Ssbm_Jag]

EDIT: This was written before the first major shieldstun patch v1.1.1., so now Peach's d-air is -3 on shield with her d-air having three additional frames of shieldstun. Read my comment after this post to see the options Little Mac has against Peach in this scenario.

I don't play Little Mac, but I dislike seeing Little Mac and Wario struggle against peach who gets away with a lot with her frame data, so I decided to look into some frame data on her d-air. One of, if not the best, little mac players (Solreth) currently struggles with the peach match-up, but not by much. While the match-up might be hard, it doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad/losing match-up for little mac (but it probably is).

Peach's floating d-air is -6 frames on shield (last hit on frame 31 at best and free to act on 39, so peach has 7 inactionable frames after the final hit of d-air), but it's +1 on shield if you drop shield normally and then try to react. Mind you that there is only 1 frame of shieldstun on peach's last hit of d-air (1.96 rounded down), so it is very hard to buffer a move from this amount of shield stun.


Begin by watching these clips at the particular time stamps listed below the URLs:

(Solreth vs. Saj)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCt31IHiH5U
2:00, 3:07, 5:08

(Note: Peach gets a free fair from a confirmed dair at low %'s, so be wary of this at the beginning of a match)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fA95Qd7Cvl4
0:07, 7:35

If Peach buffers her b-air on the way down from floating-dair you get very few total frames to punish her when your shield stun from d-air ends. An instinctual option for little macs, u-tilt, comes out on frame 5 and ends on 10, and the late hitbox on the u-tilt with the intention to punish her crossing your shield up (going behind you after d-air) would hit somewhere around frame 8-10. This means unless you are literally frame perfect (implying you buffer up-tilt during the single frame of shield stun), you'll nearly always lose to dair+buffered bair or trade in the event peach doesn't cross you up and does a falling back-air right in front of you possibly succumbing to the early hitboxes of your up-tilt (which happened in one example). Your best bet is to wait for the bair and punish the 18 frames of bair lag, and if she doesn't bair on her way down, your best option is probably to dash away (reset neutral) and not throw anything risky out as she probably will shield it (seen in a video example). Make sure you see when peach gets close to the ground she isn't going for a low hitting nair or bair, and when you know she's committing to landing lag, drop shield and run! You can also buffer a down-tilt/jab immediately from b-air shield stun (4 frames of shield stun) or nair (5 frames)! Be careful though, the d-tilt might come out before she lands (I'm not sure if you can buffer the turn around during shield stun with d-tilt and jab, but you can with f-tilt and f-smash for sure).

THIS IS ASSUMING YOU BUFFER MAC'S UP-TILT DURING D-AIR SHIELD STUN (bypassing the 7 frames of dropping shield). THIS WILL PROBABLY NEVER HAPPEN SINCE YOU PROBABLY WON'T GET THE FRAME PERFECT BUFFER, SO IT SHOWS HOW NON-OPTIMAL/INCONSISTENT IT IS TO TRY TO PUNISH D-AIR WITH U-TILT.

Frame 31 Peach's last hit of d-air hits.....hitlag freeze (both mac and peach)
32 hitlag freeze
33 hitlag freeze
34 hitlag freeze
35 hitlag freeze
36 hitlag freeze
37 shieldstun (for mac) + dair ending animation (peach)
38 dair ending animation (peach) (Mac is free to act) (begin shield stun buffered u-tilt)
39 dair ending animation (peach) (u-tilt start-up-frame 2)
40 dair ending animation (peach) (u-tilt start-up)
41 dair ending animation (peach) (u-tilt start-up)
42 dair ending animation (peach) (u-tilt early hitbox [won't hit if peach is behind])
43 dair ending animation (peach) (u-tilt early hitbox [won't hit if peach is behind])
44 (first actionable frame for peach) (Begin buffered bair) (u-tilt early hitbox [won't hit if peach is behind])
45 (bair start-up)(u-tilt late hitbox [might hit if peach is behind])
46 (bair start-up)(u-tilt late hitbox [might hit if peach is behind])
47 (bair start-up)(u-tilt late hitbox [might hit if peach is behind]) (peach distorts her hurtbox during bair start-up)
48 (bair start-up)
49 (bair's early hitbox comes out and possibly hits Mac)

HERE IS WHAT HAPPENS IF YOU DONT BUFFER UP-TILT DURING SHIELD STUN AND YOU DROP SHIELD NORMALLY (+7 FRAMES) AND THEN DO A FRAME PERFECT UP-TILT AFTER MAC'S SHIELD IS OFF. NEVER DO THIS!

Frame 31 Peach's last hit of d-air hits.....hitlag freeze (both mac and peach)
32 hitlag freeze
33 hitlag freeze
34 hitlag freeze
35 hitlag freeze
36 hitlag freeze
37 shieldstun (for mac) + dair ending animation (peach)
38 dair ending animation (peach) (Mac is free to act) (begin to drop shield))
39 dair ending animation (peach) (drop shield)
40 dair ending animation (peach) (drop shield)
41 dair ending animation (peach) (drop shield)
42 dair ending animation (peach) (drop shield)
43 dair ending animation (peach) (drop shield)
44 (first actionable frame for peach) (Begin buffered bair) (drop shield)
45 (bair start-up) (first actionable frame for Mac) (Begin Mac's u-tilt)
46 (bair start-up) (u-tilt start up)
47 (bair start-up) (u-tilt start up)
48 (bair start-up) (u-tilt start up)
49 (bair's early hitbox comes out and hits Mac) (up-tilt hitbox comes out and might hit peach depending on where she is, but not if behind mac!)

HERE IS UP+B OOS (Pretending you waited 7 frames after shield stun due to really bad reactions and didn't drop shield). TRY IT, IT MIGHT WORK?

Frame 31 Peach's last hit of d-air hits.....hitlag freeze (both mac and peach)
32 hitlag freeze
33 hitlag freeze
34 hitlag freeze
35 hitlag freeze
36 hitlag freeze
37 shieldstun (for mac) + dair ending animation (peach)
38 dair ending animation (peach) (Mac is free to act) (Bad reactions)
39 dair ending animation (peach) (Bad reactions)
40 dair ending animation (peach) (Bad reactions)
41 dair ending animation (peach) (Bad reactions)
42 dair ending animation (peach) (Bad reactions)
43 dair ending animation (peach) (Bad reactions)
44 (first actionable frame for peach) (Begin buffered bair) (Bad reactions)
45 (bair start-up) (Begin jumpsquat)
46 (bair start-up) (up-b start-up begins)
47 (bair start-up) (up-b start-up begins)
48 (bair start-up) (up-b hits Peach assuming you b-reverse the up-b if she's behind you and you're close enough to her)
49 (bair's frame 6 hitbox never comes out since she's been hit)

^I feel this is risky unless you're under a platform to catch you if you miss, that's why I just recommend waiting it out and seeing what she does on the way down. There are many punish options you might be able to do and I only explored a few in this very specific scenario of Peach d-airing little mac and crossing him up with back-air. She can also fair and nair (which is a frame earlier than bair!).

Please correct me if any of my data is wrong and I will make the proper edits. I'm might be wrong with the frame data.

Check out TheReflexWonderful's Youtube Channel, it helped me make and understand most of the frame data that went into this. (I never talked about the 1 frame of pushback that comes with the d-air, but it should not make a huge difference)

 

[Ssbm_Jag]

TLDR: Peach's D-air is ridiculously safe and is her safest aerial and a huge part of her pressure. If you shield Peach's d-air as of patch 1.1.1., you have 5 frames to Up-B out of shield and punish her before her buffered b-air comes out, having one of the fastest up-B's in the game. If she chooses to n-air, you only get 4 frames to do this. If you really hate fighting peach, you'll visually study how peach's d-air looks on shield to optimize your timing. Another option Little Mac has is roll and possibly dash attack her landing (I don't play mac so this could be a terrible idea). Just know if you drop shield, you'll lose 100% guaranteed if Peach buffers and aerial after d-air, so don't up-tilt!

 

[Ssbm_Jag]

And if the Peach catches on for any reason, up+b OOS might put you in a terrible position if you attempt it and she just floats away after her d-air.

 

[jet56]

Thanks for the input, its true, little mac should never try to punish peach's aerials after shielding them, especially with the new shield stun mechanics. TBH, a little mac just has to read when peach is going to throw out an aerial and use a smash attack and super armor through it. note that this only would work if peach was approaching aggressively, and since she can float in the air for a very long time, you have to have read when she is going to come down and how her spacing is going to be. little mac pretty much just waits for the peach player to make a mistake and punish when she is in the air, and should only pressure and approach her when she is on the ground.

 

[Ssbm_Jag]

jet56 you're probably right. Peach is super safe and I've seen Sol play against peach so many times. It sometimes doesn't even matter how good they are, Peach can just destroy mac with float.

 

[swingroo3]

I usually side smash UP coz its a good anti air move plus the super armor helps to not get knocked back from that annoying attack. Sometimes side B and never shield. But yea, you're put to very limited options.