Proposal: Why not just try allowing all custom moves and equipment in tournament? [Now with a poll]

[Gatoray]

The poll on this thread does not reflect the view or intent of my or my post, as it was added without my permission by a moderator. I will leave it up since it's already there, but personally I don't feel the poll contributes to healthy discussion of this topic. My intent was to discuss the viability of allowing custom equipment in a tournament aside from vanilla smash or custom moves smash, as I feel equipment can add fun and depth to the game.

Also, since people seem to still be misunderstanding my post, here's a quick FAQ:

Do I think custom equipment should be allowed at every tournament?
NO

Do I think there is currently a dilemma with allowing only custom moves and not equipment?
YES, because the TO would still have to check if people are cheating by applying custom equipment. You could check the stat circle on the CSS to see if they're using equipment, but the circle stays grey when there is a build with all negative stats that could be used to slip in a few OP special effects.

Won't this give people an unfair advantage when playing against people with better equipment?
YES, but it's an optional side event tournament so they don't have to enter if they don't want to.

Do I think people aren't giving equipment enough of a chance?
YES, because I hate that people aren't even considering the usage of equipment at all, even in just-for-fun tournaments. I feel that equipment could make for some really fun and crazy gameplay and to miss out on that, even in the early stages of Smash 4, would be unfortunate. (Here's a reminder that MLG 2008 ran Brawl with items)

Now back to my original post:

With the recent item effect found that smooths landing lag, there have been mixed concerns about the viability of allowing this item. With the way that custom items are unlocked, I believe that allowing only this item isn't just extra added work for TOs, but unfair to the players since it is entirely possible that one player might be able to find it on their first playthrough and another player might not find it even after 50 hours of grinding.

I've been looking through all the custom items that I've unlocked (I think I have over 200 now, been grinding with the home button hack) and honestly, I don't see anything exceptionally wrong with them, balance-wise. Sure, there are ones that are better than others and some special stats seem a little op such as the ones that allow items brought into battle, but with the way that the badges balance the stats with positive and negative effects, it's not efficient to stack a particular stat due to the decrease in other stats and it promotes balancing the types of equipment used.

There is also something that I don't think a lot of people realize: not all equipment can be equipped by all characters. There are some items that can only attach to characters in the Mario series, some only on Samus, etc. Does this mean there are some effects or stat boosts that are exclusive to certain characters? I'm not sure.

Think of this like Pokemon. There are, what, like over 650 Pokemon right now and sure there are obvious tier lists, but look at the variation and strategy that is put into each player's Pokemon. It takes time for them to get where they are, there are an incredible amount of random elements, and Pokemon is still relatively balanced and very competitive with some help from a few intelligent bans and rule enforcements. As time goes on, we will find which custom equipment combinations are overpowered and uncounterable, and we can make rules to stop these from entering tournament.

Please discuss this intelligently. If you don't think custom items should be included, I want to know why. My opinion on this matter is still up in the air, I don't know if custom items will work or not. Honestly, none of us really do until we just try.

 

[Raijinken]

I support custom moves wholeheartedly, and do not see a reason for equipment to be banned yet (no reason not to have two tournament types, like singles and doubles). I could easily see banning certain effects, but on the whole, I think the system adds depth. At the very least, certain effects (like Smooth Landing) can be added on to "improve" aspects of the game that certain crowds dislike.

 

[Jack Kieser]

I don't see why not. I mean, in a practical sense, in 3DS events, it's no big deal at all; everyone would be set up before the event starts and you choose your build on the CSS like normal.

For Wii U events, it remains to be seen how easy it is. Obviously, if you want to use a custom build, you'd need your own 3DS, because there's no guarantee that a staff 3DS or a 3DS on loan from the TO for Wii U syncing / registration would have all the parts that your own copy of Sm4sh, either 3DS or Wii U, has (since they're all random, procedurally generated drops anyway). Either that or accept that the event 3DS may not have your exact build on it.

That being said, the real reason that most people will be against it is fear, honestly. Fear that it's something else to learn, that they might not do well, that it might be a big change and change is spooky scary. There's a legitimate concern that vanilla fighters will be non-existent in bracket results because it's almost always better to boost stats where you can, and that would make people who own 3DS copies privileged over native Wii U players simply because of how easy it would be to farm and know for a fact that your parts are available, but other than that, most of the complaints will be that it's "2 spooky 4 me".

I don't see why we can't try it out, though. See if it adds stuff to the meta. I mean, I'm sure it will. The meta WILL be deeper and more expansive with equipment legal, that much is obvious. It just remains to be seen how that affects vanilla fighters and how that affects how events are run, in a practical sense.

 

[Thinkaman]

Competitive fighting games demand a level playing field.

We cannot abide randomly generate stat modifications, full stop.

I beat classic and smash run with every character, and have the majority of the custom moves. (Including all of them with the characters I'm most considering maining.) But I haven't unlocked even a single piece of most the equipment effects, much less ones of the correct slot type, much less good rolls.

For example, even after all of this time/grind, I don't have a single vampire, reduced landing-lag, crticial hit, or aerial damage piece.

Additionally, I only have one piece each for aerial defense, improved perfect shields, exploding perfect shields, faster smashes, armored smashes, regen, crouching regen, shield regen, improved walk speed, and improved run speed, and others. Most of these are on special slot types, which means I can only use them on a few characters. Additionally, there's like a ~1/1500 or so chance that these have optimal stats.

This makes Pokemon grinding look like a joke.

Also, many of them are ridiculous. Critical hit is just absurd.

 

[Gatoray]

Competitive fighting games demand a level playing field.

We cannot abide randomly generate stat modifications, full stop.

I beat classic and smash run with every character, and have the majority of the custom moves. (Including all of them with the characters I'm most considering maining.) But I haven't unlocked even a single piece of most the equipment effects, much less ones of the correct slot type, much less good rolls.

For example, even after all of this time/grind, I don't have a single vampire, reduced landing-lag, crticial hit, or aerial damage piece.

Additionally, I only have one piece each for aerial defense, improved perfect shields, exploding perfect shields, faster smashes, armored smashes, regen, crouching regen, shield regen, improved walk speed, and improved run speed, and others. Most of these are on special slot types, which means I can only use them on a few characters. Additionally, there's like a ~1/1500 or so chance that these have optimal stats.

Also, many of them are ridiculous. Critical hit is just absurd.

You have a good point. But with this in mind, there's no reason we should allow the smooth landing effect for the exact same reason, because someone might not have it. I assume you agree with that position, so I'm not calling you out, I'm just being ambiguously vocal.

However, players really do have many chances to obtain equipment. Whether or not they get a lot of them is variable, but I'm almost certain any player would end up getting have at least 3 universally equippable badges after unlocking all the characters (assuming they play through single player, which then again isn't going to be the case with every player). This doesn't make up for the randomness of the stats, but it's at least something.

Maybe we should consider banning all special effects besides balanced ones like smooth landing, but then we get back into the ordeal with TOs having a crapload of issues enforcing the rules again.

It's not looking good for equipment. Still open to the viability in side events though.

 

[Thinkaman]

We're not allowing any equipment in primary tourneys, period.

The fetishization of landing lag reduction is bizarre.

 

[Msamuleman]

Competitive fighting games demand a level playing field.

We cannot abide randomly generate stat modifications, full stop.

I beat classic and smash run with every character, and have the majority of the custom moves. (Including all of them with the characters I'm most considering maining.) But I haven't unlocked even a single piece of most the equipment effects, much less ones of the correct slot type, much less good rolls.

For example, even after all of this time/grind, I don't have a single vampire, reduced landing-lag, crticial hit, or aerial damage piece.

Additionally, I only have one piece each for aerial defense, improved perfect shields, exploding perfect shields, faster smashes, armored smashes, regen, crouching regen, shield regen, improved walk speed, and improved run speed, and others. Most of these are on special slot types, which means I can only use them on a few characters. Additionally, there's like a ~1/1500 or so chance that these have optimal stats.

This makes Pokemon grinding look like a joke.

Also, many of them are ridiculous. Critical hit is just absurd.

Truthfully speaking, fighting games are inherently imbalanced as evidenced by character tiering and so forth. Furthermore, the grinding complaint is hardly relevant and I find it almost comical that you say this makes pokemon grinding look like a joke when in-game breeding for proper stats was rather similar to this up until the most recent gens, thereby making generating pokemon via unofficial resources like pokegen the only fast method, something that could very well occur with this somewhere down the line.

Your points about the random stat modifiers show a legitimately significant problem though, but how much so can only really be determined through testing. As such, I'd argue that we should first give it a shot before we eliminate an entire facet of the game from competitive play. After all, we don't really know exactly how all these will affect the gamestate, moreover, even if there are broken pieces of equipment it's not unreasonable to just ban things in a case by case basis. It would take quite awhile, certainly. But considering that this game is in its infancy there's no reason not to try.

 

[popsofctown]

I really hate for one player to have an advantage over another due to having grinded PVE. I'm ok if there's a ceiling that everyone can reach and then have no more adantage, like with custom specials, but with equips even if you have a good piece of gear, there's an even better piece of gear out there.

Mechanics wise isn't what's wrong

 

[Jack Kieser]

We're not allowing any equipment in primary tourneys, period.

The fetishization of landing lag reduction is bizarre.

Thank god I have Thinkaman here to decide things for me. Whew, I was getting worried I'd have to think for myself. All hail Grand Marshall of Smash, Thinkaman!

...seriously, though, you DO realize how self-centered and egotistical this post is, right? Who elected you the leader of all TOs, the one man capable of telling every TO in the nation, if not the world, how to run their events?

 

[Loki]

I am all in for custom moves... for equipments tough... thats another story.

Im open to debate regarding very specific equipments, like the landing-lag one, however, other equipments, nu-uh. Custom moves are inherently balanced to a much better degree than equipments are. In the moves, in order to gain something 59you sacrifice another thing... want a longer recovery?, no hitbox in it anymore. Want a zoning bullet?, less damage and speed. These values cant be countered by equiping another custom move. What you sacrifice cant be recovered... and also, this is even for everyone.

With equipments however its another story. Sure, most equipments "try" to balance themselves by both gving and taking away from certain stats, however there are 2 main issues with this:
1.- It is possible to counter the losses because in general, start boosting is better than nerfing. I have a custom chararacter with all positive stats.
2.- The RNG factor regarding the stats. Items are not made equally... even the same named equipment might (and will most likely have) diferent values. I have 2 stylish boots... one has +56speed/-28attack and the other +59speed/-36attack. Obviously the 3 extra speed dont overweight the extra 8 attack lost. Most people will find themselves in a situation where their own equipment is overshadowed by someone else by pure chance.

You can still balance around custom moves, but not around equipment. Only very specific equipments might have competitive value as long as they are handled with care and this because of their fixed effects, not their random stats.

 

[Untouch]

I support custom moves, they seem well balanced, and there's nothing too broken.
On the other hand, equipment uses randomized stats, and the bonuses are obscene.

It's either be very restrictive, or don't use them.
Until we can edit gamefiles to give equipment with no stats, I just don't see it happening, even then I don't know.

 

[Vigilant Gambit]

Competitive fighting games demand a level playing field.

We cannot abide randomly generate stat modifications, full stop.

I beat classic and smash run with every character, and have the majority of the custom moves. (Including all of them with the characters I'm most considering maining.) But I haven't unlocked even a single piece of most the equipment effects, much less ones of the correct slot type, much less good rolls.

For example, even after all of this time/grind, I don't have a single vampire, reduced landing-lag, crticial hit, or aerial damage piece.

Additionally, I only have one piece each for aerial defense, improved perfect shields, exploding perfect shields, faster smashes, armored smashes, regen, crouching regen, shield regen, improved walk speed, and improved run speed, and others. Most of these are on special slot types, which means I can only use them on a few characters. Additionally, there's like a ~1/1500 or so chance that these have optimal stats.

This makes Pokemon grinding look like a joke.

Also, many of them are ridiculous. Critical hit is just absurd.

Whoa. You've had the game for an entire day, and you still haven't unlocked all of the best stuff yet?!

There's no way we can allow equipment! If we can't get the best stuff in a few hours, then how can we consider the playing field level? I mean, those who have been playing longer will automatically be better than people who get the game later! Ugh!

/s

The stat modifications provided by equipment are no more random in practice than Shulk's Monado Arts. You can't consider the effects of equipment in a vacuum: you have to take into account the entire set that a character is equipped with. No matter how broken any single character is in, say, Marvel vs Capcom 3, the team composition always has to be taken into consideration. The whole is greater than the sum of its parts.

Now, does it suck that they're unlocked seemingly randomly? Yes. But all things being equal, there are only so many points you can have with a full set of equipment. Doesn't matter if the points skew towards one item or another. If the max Attack you can end up with is +400 with the caveat that your character is KO'd in one hit, then the fact that your items give 123, 200, and 77 Attack, respectively, is irrelevant.

We don't know nearly enough about the system right now to already jump to ban them.

As far as character itemization, it seems that the game has some kind of smart loot system going. I have a lot more character-specific gear for the characters that I've been using in offline mode than anyone else. I use Bowser often, so I have several fake nails and shells.

You have a good point. But with this in mind, there's no reason we should allow the smooth landing effect for the exact same reason, because someone might not have it. I assume you agree with that position, so I'm not calling you out, I'm just being ambiguously vocal.

However, players really do have many chances to obtain equipment. Whether or not they get a lot of them is variable, but I'm almost certain any player would end up getting have at least 3 universally equippable badges after unlocking all the characters (assuming they play through single player, which then again isn't going to be the case with every player). This doesn't make up for the randomness of the stats, but it's at least something.

Maybe we should consider banning all special effects besides balanced ones like smooth landing, but then we get back into the ordeal with TOs having a crapload of issues enforcing the rules again.

How do we know what is or isn't balanced? By what metric are you measuring this? It seems to be "if I like it, it's balanced. Otherwise, it isn't."

I say that because what you may not realize is, Smooth Landing is potentially one of the most significantly disruptive equipment effects around, in terms of balance.

I am all in for custom moves... for equipments tough... thats another story.

Im open to debate regarding very specific equipments, like the landing-lag one, however, other equipments, nu-uh. Custom moves are inherently balanced to a much better degree than equipments are. In the moves, in order to gain something 59you sacrifice another thing... want a longer recovery?, no hitbox in it anymore. Want a zoning bullet?, less damage and speed. These values cant be countered by equiping another custom move. What you sacrifice cant be recovered... and also, this is even for everyone.

With equipments however its another story. Sure, most equipments "try" to balance themselves by both gving and taking away from certain stats, however there are 2 main issues with this:
1.- It is possible to counter the losses because in general, start boosting is better than nerfing. I have a custom chararacter with all positive stats.
2.- The RNG factor regarding the stats. Items are not made equally... even the same named equipment might (and will most likely have) diferent values. I have 2 stylish boots... one has +56speed/-28attack and the other +59speed/-36attack. Obviously the 3 extra speed dont overweight the extra 8 attack lost. Most people will find themselves in a situation where their own equipment is overshadowed by someone else by pure chance.

You can still balance around custom moves, but not around equipment. Only very specific equipments might have competitive value as long as they are handled with care and this because of their fixed effects, not their random stats.

I'm noticing a trend of people mentioning the smooth landing equipment. I don't think it's too much of a reach to believe that smooth landing will, ultimately, be a de facto equipment effect, seeing as how it changes the properties of every move such that entirely new styles of gameplay are possible. I think there's a chance that smooth landing gear in all 3 slots might end up becoming the "tournament standard" if allowed, with the only difference being exactly what weight the 3 base stats are given, keeping in mind that equipment with special effects like that, on the whole, seem to have much lower boost to reduction ratios than vanilla equipment. Essentially, the equipment that would end up being the most powerful would simply reduce landing lag on aerials, and not do a whole lot else (other than possibly end up reducing stats of one type or another).

I'm carefully wording this post to clearly indicate that this is all speculation, because I've only had the game for a day (as have the vast majority of you). I haven't had the time nor the willingness to sit down and investigate this scientifically. I'm of the mindset that we should simply let it rock in competitions until the bad parts become glaringly obvious. I'm talking, give the game 6 months to a year before we start discussing bans. I'm not aware of a single competitive fighting game out there that has had its month 6 or year 1 meta last the next 5 or 10 years. Hell, just a year or two ago, the Super Turbo tier list was changed.

To address the rest of your post, Loki, "I have a custom character with all positive stats" is meaningless. I have one with all positive stats, too. The stats are also all really low, because every piece of equipment is being worked against by another piece of equipment. Achieving the goal of "no deficiencies" also achieves the goal of "no specialties." You end up with a character that is, technically, all-around better than its non-customized counterpart, but not as good as a more well thought-out configuration. For example, stacking Defense with Palutena, at the cost of speed, but equipping her with the Super Speed and Lightweight specials, so she can summon maneuverability when she needs it. As a matter of fact, I'm pretty sure the way the Lightweight special works under the hood is by using a stat-modification system similar to Shulk's, since it lowers defense while boosting speed, but that's a discussion for later.

You were also concerned about the RNG factor of obtaining the items in the first place. You folks see it and see nothing but the possibility to end up with a bunch of crappy items, while your competition gets the good stuff that helps them beat you. I see a piece of code that has a minimum and maximum value for every stat on every item generated. It says that the highest value an item can have is X, and if that value is X, then the reduction for the other stat can be as small as Y, and that's as good as it can possibly get. There is no way that the game was not programmed in this way.

If it isn't clear what I just said, I'll try to make it more plain: the developers have already set the range of the items. Discovering what the best and worst rolls are will be nothing but a matter of time. There's already a thread trying to keep track of all the different items people have found, and trying to reverse engineer what the stat ranges are, and how the special effects affect them. They are putting in work instead of complaining about the randomness. They're searching for answers instead of being afraid of the unknown.

I think that Equipment in tournaments would be fun, cool, and competitive. Would it be 100% balanced? Possibly. I can't answer that question yet. But I'm willing to argue that the game itself is fundamentally unbalanced, because the only way it could possibly be balanced was if it had one character and one stage.

The game's asymmetrical nature is part of what makes it worth playing. Palutena can ruin, say, Megaman's day, but how does she deal with Little Mac's pressure?

Also, if you guys really wanna test how effective Equipment is, why not try a concept tournament where a couple of top players use default characters or custom moves only, then pair them up with a bunch of "non-top players" who have the "best" equipment?

 

[aethermaster]

I honestly don't ever see equipment pieces being legal. its allowing a character to possibly have an unfair advantage against another and with how many there are its just too random to what every system would get and it would get ridiculous.

Customs I don't see a problem with. Lets see how far we can break a character with custom moves

 

[Vigilant Gambit]

I honestly don't ever see equipment pieces being legal. its allowing a character to possibly have an unfair advantage against another and with how many there are its just too random to what every system would get and it would get ridiculous.

Customs I don't see a problem with. Lets see how far we can break a character with custom moves

I have a better question than "Why not just try allowing all custom moves and equipment in tournament?"

It's "Exactly what do we have to lose by allowing all custom moves and equipment in tournament? What does it cost us as players and as TOs?"

It costs us time unlocking the items we want, as players. It costs us... nothing, as TOs, since the players have to unlock something if they wanna use it. (We can worry about the Wii U version once it's in people's hands and we know what the deal is with that. Speculating at this point is useless.)

So what is the "cost" of allowing equipment in tournaments, exactly?

 

[Gatoray]

How do we know what is or isn't balanced? By what metric are you measuring this? It seems to be "if I like it, it's balanced. Otherwise, it isn't."

I say that because what you may not realize is, Smooth Landing is potentially one of the most significantly disruptive equipment effects around, in terms of balance.

I realize that the developers of Smash 4 did their balancing with customizations off. However, Melee was balanced without wavedashing being acknowledged at all (AFAIK). After finding an unintended addition to the game, it still holds up very well. Not to say that wavedashing breaks the game, but it definitely gives certain characters options that they weren't supposed to have (especially Luigi). We will find out if landing lag reduction is balanced over time, and honestly it really doesn't seem that significant of an effect to really do any damage to the balance (IMO).

I'm not saying Smash 4 should be turned into Melee, I really like vanilla Sm4sh so far, a little slow coming from Melee for sure, but still tense and engaging. All the characters, save a few glitched mechanics that will probably be patched, seem really well balanced. I'd say we could press our luck with the balance and try customizations. The balance would then be determined by the Smash 4 back-room, our own community, because we're on our own at that point.

 

[viewtifulduck82]

Look, equipment will not, and should not be legal. Their extreme randomness is every TO's worse nightmare. It will be impossible to make sure every participant will have unlocked all of the parts on their respective 3ds'. It will be unfair if someone has pieces not accesible to the others because they didnt grind hard enough.

 

[Gatoray]

Look, equipment will not, and should not be legal. Their extreme randomness is every TO's worse nightmare. It will be impossible to make sure every participant will have unlocked all of the parts on their respective 3ds'. It will be unfair if someone has pieces not accesible to the others because they didnt grind hard enough.

But the point isn't to have all the items unlocked on every 3DS, it's to just allow whatever parts each person has. Just like Pokemon, it's incredibly difficult to catch all the Pokemon and breed certain stats out of them, but they still hold competitions. Why not just allow a tournament that you can bring your 3DS to with whatever items and characters etc you have unlocked and just run with it? The winner won't automatically be the person with the best items, they might have an advantage, but in the end it's still a fighting game and the better players generally will win more often (unless of course there is a completely uncounterable set of equipment in which case we can rule out customization tournaments, but we won't know until we try)

Also, I'm not saying customization tournaments should be the norm, only a fun side event, possibly something more serious if it proves to be a doable structure for tournaments. I believe vanilla smash should be the main event, period.

 

[viewtifulduck82]

But the point isn't to have all the items unlocked on every 3DS, it's to just allow whatever parts each person has. Just like Pokemon, it's incredibly difficult to catch all the Pokemon and breed certain stats out of them, but they still hold competitions. Why not just allow a tournament that you can bring your 3DS to with whatever items and characters etc you have unlocked and just run with it? The winner won't automatically be the person with the best items, they might have an advantage, but in the end it's still a fighting game and the better players generally will win more often (unless of course there is a completely uncounterable set of equipment in which case we can rule out customization tournaments, but we won't know until we try)

Also, I'm not saying customization tournaments should be the norm, only a fun side event, possibly something more serious if it proves to be a doable structure for tournaments. I believe vanilla smash should be the main event, period.

No, that isn't fair to the people not willing to spend 200+ hours trying to get that specific piece they need for a set. The whole point of a tournament is to see who the better player is, not who grinded the longest, or who got lucky and got good pieces easier.

 

[Saito]

I'm not everyone but there's specific things that I think should and shouldn't be considered.

Custom moves should be tested. As opposed to most everything else getting these is a bit easier than getting other things just by playing the game as said character. More of a bring your own moves in this sense though.

Assuming 3ds smash the person should hopefully be expected to bring their 3ds along with their moves. If not, then they may have to play vanilla. I'm not necessarily fond of the thought of how complicated it would be, along with how it can be perceived as unfair for the person who doesn't want to look for their items, but custom moves can help out characters, change up entire strategies, etc...

Hence testing.

----

Equipment.

I have played quite a bit with custom stuff because it's more fun that way.
The stuff you get can change things so significantly it's ridiculous.

I think it should also be tested however, there definitely needs to be a range of how high a person should be allowed to raise a stat. This leads to even more problems with people cheating and modifying their builds, on top of the extra time to confirm that everyone's set is legal.

The reason I talk about a range is because if anyone is free to stack stats how they want, they will stack them as high as possible in one thing which would actually end up hindering competitive growth due to people being simply carried by gear.

I'm not saying the gear could carry alone, but it would not help the situation. Defensive play would become even more prevalent with stacked stats, due to high power making people want to stay away. High defense extending matches and making it dangerous to be up close. and speed being used to projectile pressure and stay out of range.

However, find a suitable range that doesn't add to the problems and only supports the game, and maybe we have something.

• 0-20 power
• -15-10 defense
• 0-25 speed

That's what I'm feeling at least. Could probably use more work on that.

That's just equipment.

--------

But there's something even more significant.

Equipment with effects on them should not be allowed.
While I think the landing lag one would be one of the most positive things for smash 4 it's really complicated to work in reasonably.

The other effects can range from insignificant to borderline broken and trying to do all those complicated bans on specific things are only going to confuse TOs, the players, and potentially cause one or more cheating cases.

Assuming Nintendo gave out a free smooth landing +0 to all stats piece to every player via download though and I would be supporting that 100% though.

I do not share that same feeling for some of the other effects on the equipment.

 

[Loki]

But the point isn't to have all the items unlocked on every 3DS, it's to just allow whatever parts each person has. Just like Pokemon, it's incredibly difficult to catch all the Pokemon and breed certain stats out of them, but they still hold competitions. Why not just allow a tournament that you can bring your 3DS to with whatever items and characters etc you have unlocked and just run with it? The winner won't automatically be the person with the best items, they might have an advantage, but in the end it's still a fighting game and the better players generally will win more often (unless of course there is a completely uncounterable set of equipment in which case we can rule out customization tournaments, but we won't know until we try)

Also, I'm not saying customization tournaments should be the norm, only a fun side event, possibly something more serious if it proves to be a doable structure for tournaments. I believe vanilla smash should be the main event, period.

Because this is a figthing game, not a strategy game. In figthing games you try to judge people's skill, not their ability to grind or their luck, wich to a degree is what gets implied with these. In most figthing games, pros know about not only their own characters and the mechanics of the game, but they also know their opponent characters, they know what said character can do and how it can pull it of. Therefore, the only factor deciding who wins is skill.

If we introduce equipment, we are adding variables to the game, variables that to a degree take importance from skill. Someone will not be able to know what does his opponent has equipped nor what his character is capable of because of all the added mistery variables. This is why, do a degree, figthing games are fair (no all, and not in the same degree, obviously).

Everyone would need to know beforehand what customs someone has... then multiply that for X where X is the number of participants. that can easily go from dozens to hundreds. It aint possible. It would be impossible to constantly adjust oneself to all the changing variables, thus skill would be torn and would have less value. This problem ain't so prominent with custom moves as they are not that chaotic and are actually a lot less in numbers. Also, it would be easier to register a character with:

Robin: 2311

Anyone would be able to understand that quickly and adjust themelves to it. Anyone with a good knowledge of the game would quickly understand that said Robin has strong thunder, firewall and stock elwind and nosferatu. Meaning that you need to be more careful of the thunders and not rushing so mindlessly because of the firewall.

However, equipment change how the characters play from a mechanics level. Speed, jump, KB, %s output, kill power, weight, etc etc etc. And this without saying anything that all of these modify stats differently.

This is speculation... yeah... but this speculation helps us envision the outcomes and start geting prepared for them. We should speculate to get a better understanding of what data might show us in the future, not speculate to go nuts on the spot.

So that's it. Overall equipments do bring a lot of variables to the table. Varibles that might overshadow rather easily what matters in a figthing game: skill. Should we diss them off? Not really, but being realistic, objective and observants, it is easy to see and understand the arguments as to why equipments might not be healty for the competitive scene.

Casual side-events where anything goes?, heck, sure, knock yourselves out. Competitive tournaments? logical thinking points to a huge nope.

 

[Malex]

Whoa. You've had the game for an entire day, and you still haven't unlocked all of the best stuff yet?!

There's no way we can allow equipment! If we can't get the best stuff in a few hours, then how can we consider the playing field level? I mean, those who have been playing longer will automatically be better than people who get the game later! Ugh!

/s

The stat modifications provided by equipment are no more random in practice than Shulk's Monado Arts. You can't consider the effects of equipment in a vacuum: you have to take into account the entire set that a character is equipped with. No matter how broken any single character is in, say, Marvel vs Capcom 3, the team composition always has to be taken into consideration. The whole is greater than the sum of its parts.

Now, does it suck that they're unlocked seemingly randomly? Yes. But all things being equal, there are only so many points you can have with a full set of equipment. Doesn't matter if the points skew towards one item or another. If the max Attack you can end up with is +400 with the caveat that your character is KO'd in one hit, then the fact that your items give 123, 200, and 77 Attack, respectively, is irrelevant.

We don't know nearly enough about the system right now to already jump to ban them.

As far as character itemization, it seems that the game has some kind of smart loot system going. I have a lot more character-specific gear for the characters that I've been using in offline mode than anyone else. I use Bowser often, so I have several fake nails and shells.

How do we know what is or isn't balanced? By what metric are you measuring this? It seems to be "if I like it, it's balanced. Otherwise, it isn't."

I say that because what you may not realize is, Smooth Landing is potentially one of the most significantly disruptive equipment effects around, in terms of balance.


I'm noticing a trend of people mentioning the smooth landing equipment. I don't think it's too much of a reach to believe that smooth landing will, ultimately, be a de facto equipment effect, seeing as how it changes the properties of every move such that entirely new styles of gameplay are possible. I think there's a chance that smooth landing gear in all 3 slots might end up becoming the "tournament standard" if allowed, with the only difference being exactly what weight the 3 base stats are given, keeping in mind that equipment with special effects like that, on the whole, seem to have much lower boost to reduction ratios than vanilla equipment. Essentially, the equipment that would end up being the most powerful would simply reduce landing lag on aerials, and not do a whole lot else (other than possibly end up reducing stats of one type or another).

I'm carefully wording this post to clearly indicate that this is all speculation, because I've only had the game for a day (as have the vast majority of you). I haven't had the time nor the willingness to sit down and investigate this scientifically. I'm of the mindset that we should simply let it rock in competitions until the bad parts become glaringly obvious. I'm talking, give the game 6 months to a year before we start discussing bans. I'm not aware of a single competitive fighting game out there that has had its month 6 or year 1 meta last the next 5 or 10 years. Hell, just a year or two ago, the Super Turbo tier list was changed.

To address the rest of your post, Loki, "I have a custom character with all positive stats" is meaningless. I have one with all positive stats, too. The stats are also all really low, because every piece of equipment is being worked against by another piece of equipment. Achieving the goal of "no deficiencies" also achieves the goal of "no specialties." You end up with a character that is, technically, all-around better than its non-customized counterpart, but not as good as a more well thought-out configuration. For example, stacking Defense with Palutena, at the cost of speed, but equipping her with the Super Speed and Lightweight specials, so she can summon maneuverability when she needs it. As a matter of fact, I'm pretty sure the way the Lightweight special works under the hood is by using a stat-modification system similar to Shulk's, since it lowers defense while boosting speed, but that's a discussion for later.

You were also concerned about the RNG factor of obtaining the items in the first place. You folks see it and see nothing but the possibility to end up with a bunch of crappy items, while your competition gets the good stuff that helps them beat you. I see a piece of code that has a minimum and maximum value for every stat on every item generated. It says that the highest value an item can have is X, and if that value is X, then the reduction for the other stat can be as small as Y, and that's as good as it can possibly get. There is no way that the game was not programmed in this way.

If it isn't clear what I just said, I'll try to make it more plain: the developers have already set the range of the items. Discovering what the best and worst rolls are will be nothing but a matter of time. There's already a thread trying to keep track of all the different items people have found, and trying to reverse engineer what the stat ranges are, and how the special effects affect them. They are putting in work instead of complaining about the randomness. They're searching for answers instead of being afraid of the unknown.

I think that Equipment in tournaments would be fun, cool, and competitive. Would it be 100% balanced? Possibly. I can't answer that question yet. But I'm willing to argue that the game itself is fundamentally unbalanced, because the only way it could possibly be balanced was if it had one character and one stage.

The game's asymmetrical nature is part of what makes it worth playing. Palutena can ruin, say, Megaman's day, but how does she deal with Little Mac's pressure?

Also, if you guys really wanna test how effective Equipment is, why not try a concept tournament where a couple of top players use default characters or custom moves only, then pair them up with a bunch of "non-top players" who have the "best" equipment?

Max stat is +200 (proof required, but data suggests.) No minimum observed. The whole thing about getting the exact equipment are driven by these assumptions.

1. For a specific character, there exists an optimum build.
2. Players who have optimum builds will have advantages over player who do not have optimum builds.
3. The randomly generated stats create an entry barrier into the group of players who have optimum builds.

Given those assumptions, once a player randomly gets his optimum build, he will have an advantage over players who don't. Because of the observed (but still being cataloged) RNG, it can take a player a very long time to get the optimum build. So, because the computer decided to roll a 1 instead of a zero, some people are getting advantages over others.

As far as farming equipment, here's an anecdote I have from WoW. I played a feral druid years ago and I was farming all my pre-raid gear. The very last item I needed was Feral Staff of Lashing off of the final boss of the hardest / longest dungeon that no one ever wanted to do. You could only run it once per day and I ran it every single day for two and a half months. It took me 76 days to get it. (I upgraded it 3 days later with a raid drop.) The average drop rate is 12%.

The probability of that happening was 0.00006%. I was at a disadvantage over my peers because the game wouldn't roll a 1 instead of a zero. Did it ever matter? I'm sure it did. There were times when we'd wipe at a boss at 1% or a healer lagged and I died by less than 1% of my health.

These scenarios will happen to for smash players as well. Custom moves are a little different because there is a finite number of them. There isn't really a finite number of equipment. The highest piece of gear I have has a +80 stat.

Assumptions: (Edit: After typing this, I checked my inventory and found something that is +83 -42)
1. Stats can be from -40 to +80
2. A stat can't be modified by +0.

The maximum numbers of equipments are 80 * 40 * 3 = 9,600. Then the 35 cataloged special effects (There's more I have some that aren't even on the list yet). There's 336,000+ combinations just from what we know right now. This is just to get 1 piece of equipment. So really there's over 1,000,000 possible combinations, even when you try to factor in different stat distributions, it will still be obnoxiously high. In addition to that, whenever you pick up a custom parts bag, there's a chance you can get custom moves, further exacerbating the issue.

There is no way we can reasonably expect anyone to have an optimum build. It would be like showing up to a Modern M:TG tournament with a a bunch of booster packs and drafting yourself a deck. Sure, if you bring enough packs(thousands), you might get something resembling a working deck, but more than likely, you're going to get wrecked.

 

[Chronocide]

But the point isn't to have all the items unlocked on every 3DS, it's to just allow whatever parts each person has. Just like Pokemon, it's incredibly difficult to catch all the Pokemon and breed certain stats out of them, but they still hold competitions. Why not just allow a tournament that you can bring your 3DS to with whatever items and characters etc you have unlocked and just run with it? The winner won't automatically be the person with the best items, they might have an advantage, but in the end it's still a fighting game and the better players generally will win more often (unless of course there is a completely uncounterable set of equipment in which case we can rule out customization tournaments, but we won't know until we try)

Also, I'm not saying customization tournaments should be the norm, only a fun side event, possibly something more serious if it proves to be a doable structure for tournaments. I believe vanilla smash should be the main event, period.

See there's a difference between Pokemon and Smash, with Pokemon if you know what you're doing and follow the right methods (including having equipment beforehand) it's easy to breed the right pokemon that has the most optimal stats for what you're doing. However it seems equipment pieces in smash are completely different, it's completely random what you get and so far there's no way to actual manipulate the stats of the item you will receive. Meaning it could take hundreds of hours just to grind for an item with a good affect and even at that point the statistics on that item might be terrible. At least pokemon gave you some type of control as to what you would get (to an extent) whereas in Smash you're basically playing the lottery and hoping Sakurai smiles on you.

The winner won't automatically be the person with the best items, they might have an advantage, but in the end it's still a fighting game and the better players generally will win more often

The thing with competitive smash is that it's about all players being on an equal playing field and using their skills/tactics to beat their opponents. Players are given the option to play as whoever they like, and are capable of doing whatever their opponent does. So if you allow these types of equipment that are only limited to one player in a match, you're restricting what one player can do whilst not restricting the other causing an imbalance. Whilst the imbalance may be small it's still an imbalance and makes the match unfair for one side. On the extremely off chance this 'small advantage' could even be the deciding factor in a close match.

Also, I'm not saying customization tournaments should be the norm, only a fun side event, possibly something more serious if it proves to be a doable structure for tournaments. I believe vanilla smash should be the main event, period.

This I can agree on, as long as players are all aware that they may be at a disadvantage if they don't have the right equipment and it doesn't affect any major tournaments. I have no issues with it. I'm quite sure that some of these tournaments will appear and that they'll be quite interesting to watch.

 

[Gatoray]

Because this is a figthing game, not a strategy game

So it's impossible to have both at the same time? A strategic fighting game, it's never been done before, but that doesn't mean it can't be done now. Technically at this point it's a fighting game / strategy game / slot machine, but can't really do anything about that.

There is no way we can reasonably expect anyone to have an optimum build.

We would do testing to see how much of an advantage an optimal build has over a suboptimal build. Also, this is only from my rough observations, but usually it seems the negative stat on an equipment is proportional to the positive stat, meaning that putting on +80 ATK would get you around -60 DEF or something, that's a huge deficit. Yes there are variations in the difference between the two numbers, but I'd assume the random formula has a limit to how large the difference can be. Once again, we'd have to test this more to see for sure.

 

[Thinkaman]

Thank god I have Thinkaman here to decide things for me. Whew, I was getting worried I'd have to think for myself. All hail Grand Marshall of Smash, Thinkaman!

...seriously, though, you DO realize how self-centered and egotistical this post is, right? Who elected you the leader of all TOs, the one man capable of telling every TO in the nation, if not the world, how to run their events?

A competitive environment requires a level playing field.

Nothing, not even my mighty opinions, can change that.

 

[Deleted member 269706]

Y'know, it would be kind of fun to see all of the different play styles...I don't know why Sakurai didn't want to create a separate online mode for people who wanted to play with customizations just for the hell of it, I mean, I know I would enjoy it. Think about it: For Fun, For Glory, For the Hell of It. People who wanted to play traditionally would still have that opportunity, and people who wanted to screw around would also. Plus, all of his hard work would actually lead to something beyond the offline play. Before I get any more off point, I do want to mention that I'm sure there will probably be some customization tournaments held at some point in time, the only thing to note is that they probably won't be hosted online, but rather via local play.

 

[Malex]

I'm not everyone but there's specific things that I think should and shouldn't be considered.

Custom moves should be tested. As opposed to most everything else getting these is a bit easier than getting other things just by playing the game as said character. More of a bring your own moves in this sense though.

Assuming 3ds smash the person should hopefully be expected to bring their 3ds along with their moves. If not, then they may have to play vanilla. I'm not necessarily fond of the thought of how complicated it would be, along with how it can be perceived as unfair for the person who doesn't want to look for their items, but custom moves can help out characters, change up entire strategies, etc...

Hence testing.

----

Equipment.

I have played quite a bit with custom stuff because it's more fun that way.
The stuff you get can change things so significantly it's ridiculous.

I think it should also be tested however, there definitely needs to be a range of how high a person should be allowed to raise a stat. This leads to even more problems with people cheating and modifying their builds, on top of the extra time to confirm that everyone's set is legal.

The reason I talk about a range is because if anyone is free to stack stats how they want, they will stack them as high as possible in one thing which would actually end up hindering competitive growth due to people being simply carried by gear.

I'm not saying the gear could carry alone, but it would not help the situation. Defensive play would become even more prevalent with stacked stats, due to high power making people want to stay away. High defense extending matches and making it dangerous to be up close. and speed being used to projectile pressure and stay out of range.

However, find a suitable range that doesn't add to the problems and only supports the game, and maybe we have something.

• 0-20 power
• -15-10 defense
• 0-25 speed

That's what I'm feeling at least. Could probably use more work on that.

That's just equipment.

--------

But there's something even more significant.

Equipment with effects on them should not be allowed.
While I think the landing lag one would be one of the most positive things for smash 4 it's really complicated to work in reasonably.

The other effects can range from insignificant to borderline broken and trying to do all those complicated bans on specific things are only going to confuse TOs, the players, and potentially cause one or more cheating cases.

Assuming Nintendo gave out a free smooth landing +0 to all stats piece to every player via download though and I would be supporting that 100% though.

I do not share that same feeling for some of the other effects on the equipment.

What is even the purpose with so many restrictions on it? If equipment is going to be a thing, should let it be how it is. There's no reason not to let someone go to +200/-100/0 XXXX Character, I'll use my +40/+40/+40 character and destroy them. The higher the stat, the worse of a trade off it is.

Because this is a figthing game, not a strategy game. In figthing games you try to judge people's skill, not their ability to grind or their luck, wich to a degree is what gets implied with these. In most figthing games, pros know about not only their own characters and the mechanics of the game, but they also know their opponent characters, they know what said character can do and how it can pull it of. Therefore, the only factor deciding who wins is skill.

If we introduce equipment, we are adding variables to the game, variables that to a degree take importance from skill. Someone will not be able to know what does his opponent has equipped nor what his character is capable of because of all the added mistery variables. This is why, do a degree, figthing games are fair (no all, and not in the same degree, obviously).

Everyone would need to know beforehand what customs someone has... then multiply that for X where X is the number of participants. that can easily go from dozens to hundreds. It aint possible. It would be impossible to constantly adjust oneself to all the changing variables, thus skill would be torn and would have less value. This problem ain't so prominent with custom moves as they are not that chaotic and are actually a lot less in numbers. Also, it would be easier to register a character with:

Robin: 2311

Anyone would be able to understand that quickly and adjust themelves to it. Anyone with a good knowledge of the game would quickly understand that said Robin has strong thunder, firewall and stock elwind and nosferatu. Meaning that you need to be more careful of the thunders and not rushing so mindlessly because of the firewall.

However, equipment change how the characters play from a mechanics level. Speed, jump, KB, %s output, kill power, weight, etc etc etc. And this without saying anything that all of these modify stats differently.

This is speculation... yeah... but this speculation helps us envision the outcomes and start geting prepared for them. We should speculate to get a better understanding of what data might show us in the future, not speculate to go nuts on the spot.

So that's it. Overall equipments do bring a lot of variables to the table. Varibles that might overshadow rather easily what matters in a figthing game: skill. Should we diss them off? Not really, but being realistic, objective and observants, it is easy to see and understand the arguments as to why equipments might not be healty for the competitive scene.

Casual side-events where anything goes?, heck, sure, knock yourselves out. Competitive tournaments? logical thinking points to a huge nope.

Why must omniscience be maintained? I can never figure this out. There is very little draw back to hidden information in smash.

Custom Moves: Oh no, you have to be kind of careful and account for different scenarios UNTIL THEY USE IT ONCE. After wards, you only have to plan for a single scenario.

Equipment: If you were experienced enough with the game, you should be able to adjust after....

1. Landing a hit
2. Being hit
3. The enemy moves

Once all three of those conditions are met, you should be able to figure out your opponents stats. The only real "hidden" information are special affects.

In any case, equipment seem to only adjust to +100% (barring special affects.) and the draw back to get there isn't insignificant.

I'm not saying that equipment SHOULD be standard, (I am currently against them) but I don't think they are zany, whacky, unbalanced, "too much for competitive players to account for", etc. etc.

There's an upper limit on equipment.
There's diminishing returns.
Nothing really over the top broken yet. Not even Link Death arrows.

So it's impossible to have both at the same time? A strategic fighting game, it's never been done before, but that doesn't mean it can't be done now. Technically at this point it's a fighting game / strategy game / slot machine, but can't really do anything about that.


We would do testing to see how much of an advantage an optimal build has over a suboptimal build. Also, this isn't always the case, but usually the negative stat on an equipment is proportional to the positive stat, meaning that putting on +80 ATK would get you around -60 DEF or something, that's a huge deficit. Yes there are variations in the difference between the two numbers, but I'd assume the random formula has a limit to how large the difference can be. Once again, we'd have to test this more to see for sure.

The general rule of thumb I see is that you get +X stat and -0.5X stat. (there are variances)
However, the negative stat adjustment seems to be weaker than the positive stat adjustment. So, positives are more good than negatives are bad. This is in addition to the stat adjustment. (Though I am still working on a predictive model for negative stat adjustment, my first was too aggressive.)

As far as optimum build vs sub optimum build. We can take a look at something like

+40 to all stats vs. +30 to all stats.

+ 40 = 131% to all stats
vs
+ 30 = 123% to all stats.

So, the "optimum" character would have a "1.065% advantage" over his opponent.

A competitive environment requires a level playing field.

Nothing, not even my mighty opinions, can change that.

Hey, man. It is an even playing field. You had equal opportunity to farm out that equipment. I'm filing for my divorce and putting my two weeks notice in at my job right now to make sure I get the most equal opportunity.

 

[Thinkaman]

Hey, man. It is an even playing field. You had equal opportunity to farm out that equipment. I'm filing for my divorce and putting my two weeks notice in at my job right now to make sure I get the most equal opportunity.

How do I "like" this multiple times?

 

[Gatoray]

Y'know, it would be kind of fun to see all of the different play styles...I don't know why Sakurai didn't want to create a separate online mode for people who wanted to play with customizations just for the hell of it, I mean, I know I would enjoy it. Think about it: For Fun, For Glory, For the Hell of It. People who wanted to play traditionally would still have that opportunity, and people who wanted to screw around would also. Plus, all of his hard work would actually lead to something beyond the offline play. Before I get any more off point, I do want to mention that I'm sure there will probably be some customization tournaments held at some point in time, the only thing to note is that they probably won't be hosted online, but rather via local play.

This is really all I want to see. I just want a "release the hounds" style tournament (quite literally, if you're playing Duck Hunt.... ha.... get it?) where people come, everything is allowed, and chaos ensues. It would be really fun to watch and is less random than a tournament with items turned on (which would be comparable, but everyone knows you can't have competition and items in the same sentence). Winner gets a $5 starbucks card or something.

How do I "like" this multiple times?

I'll like it in your honor.

 

[Saito]

What is even the purpose with so many restrictions on it? If equipment is going to be a thing, should let it be how it is. There's no reason not to let someone go to +200/-100/0 XXXX Character, I'll use my +40/+40/+40 character and destroy them. The higher the stat, the worse of a trade off it is.

Allowing everything haphazardly will have equipment end up being seen as bad for the game competitively.
It's literally going to be like items if we test it without keeping anything in check, and look at how "accepted" items are in competitive play.

Even if you had a 40 build, that's still no guarantee you could even hope to catch someone with a 200 speed build.

The loss of Attack could end up being less significant because of the nature of smash. I mean, as long as they can stop you from coming back, it doesn't matter if they have -600 attack. speed could help that edgeguard, but someone running and poking the entire match is not going to be fun to play or watch.

 

[Malex]

Allowing everything haphazardly will have equipment end up being seen as bad for the game competitively.
It's literally going to be like items if we test it without keeping anything in check, and look at how "accepted" items are in competitive play.

Even if you had a 40 build, that's still no guarantee you could even hope to catch someone with a 200 speed build.

The loss of Attack could end up being less significant because of the nature of smash. I mean, as long as they can stop you from coming back, it doesn't matter if they have -600 attack. speed could help that edgeguard, but someone running and poking the entire match is not going to be fun to play or watch.

Let's work with realistic scenarios. If someone had a -100/0/+200 build, and I had a +40/+40/+40 build. (I'm still working on my negatives, but it should be in the ball park.)

My attacks 131% against him.
His attacks would only be 51.75% against me

He is 69% faster than me.

I suppose someone could try running away for 5 minutes, but if I'm playing a character with a spammable projectile, it isn't going to work out for them.

 

[deepseadiva]

Let me preface this with: I don't actually know how this system works.

But it sounds like you want to play some kind of Smash RPG except the equipment is randomly distributed and not to mention difficult to standardize. Regardless of whether yall think that's competitively viable... is there actually going to be a scene for this? Are people genuinely going to be interested getting together to do this - balance one character 40/40/40, check against opponents that they are at the same level, and then fight from there?

A "for the hell of it" kind of tournament sounds okay. But I don't think this really leads anywhere deeper than that.

 

[Jiggsbomb]

In smash, we settle skill. We should not destroy that with equipment, and if we use custom moves. Then the tier lists would be very different.

 

[KaZe_DaRKWIND]

Custom moves are fine but I am completely against any equipment.

 

[Qbopper]

I don't want to get too involved in this debate, but if people really want equipment in tourneys, then why not throw a tourney together with equipment?

Enough of this theory crap, the game is HERE. Just try it. You've got a chance to be shaping the meta of this game, so why are you here on message boards talking about it?

 

[nyttyn]

Equipment is kind of ludicrously unbalancing. Just for example, a ganondorf set I affectionately refer to as "turbodork" can run at nearly sonic levels of speed with +70~ish speed, with only a minor damage penalty offsetting this. It doesn't matter, of course, because Ganondork already has so much power that he can take a small hit, no problem. Also, BS like the death arrow will encourage an incredibly defensive and campy meta. Lord knows Smash tournaments are already infamous for running over time.

That's not even considering how many stupid specials there are. Spawn with a baseball bat? Heal 2% every 3 seconds for free? Faster dodge rolls, in a game where dodge rolling is already incredibly powerful? 1.3x running speed? 1.5x power on meteor smashes? Triple respawn invincibility? 1.3x power on vertical launches? 20% chance for 3x damage? They're incredibly obnoxious, power wise, and snap the balance in half.

To put the final nail in this coffin, "grinding it out" really isn't a solution. Not only are the stats and specials of equipment 100% RNG based, the dice are actively working against you due to how many probabilities there are. Not only do you need to get a wrench for a chance at equipment, you then need to get a peice of equipment over a hat, a outfit, or a custom move, and then it needs to be the right base type, and then it needs the right penalties, the right stat boosts, the right specials, and if even one of these isn't exactly top tier what you need, start from go.

 

[Ganreizu]

Whoa. You've had the game for an entire day, and you still haven't unlocked all of the best stuff yet?!

The game has been out for weeks dude what are you talking about.

 

[Blue Warrior]

Yeah, I don't think equipment is tourney viable. Too much grinding and RNG involved. As others have said, it would reduce the emphasis on skill in competitive play. Custom moves are way easier to allow due to less grinding + being way simpler in nature than equipment.

 

[Vigilant Gambit]

The game has been out for weeks dude what are you talking about.

It's been out for weeks in Japan. The majority of people outside that country did not get the game until 3 days ago.

 

[KACHOW!!!]

Let's just assume everyone has every piece of equipment. Even then, it would be unbalanced to allow custom eq because it changes the fighter drastically in some instances, and it would just mess with the balance of a game we already don't know that much about yet. More importantly, its about who has time to practice against it, if it might just be a random mishmash of custom moves, especially with the mii fighter, who's already so variable. I think the best thing we could do would be to allow mii fighter, but ban custom moves and equipment.

 

[Terotrous]

There's nothing stopping you from trying it. Similarly, we could try having Smash Run tournaments or FFA tournaments or whatever else. It's obviously going to be less balanced, there's no way they could account for all 50 million possible matchups, so chances are we'll discover some setups that are really gamebreaking and lame, but it might be entertaining nonsense for a little while.