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[#HBC | marshy]

votecount 1.09
kuz (2) - circus ranmaru
circus (1) - nabe
rockin (1) - kary
ranmaru (3) - j bardull kuz
kary (1) - rockin
kataefi (1) - pjb
bardull (1) - kataefi sworddancer.
j (1) - hilt
not voting (1) - soup

voting log
soup -> j -> none
pjb -> soup -> none -> kataefi
rockin -> sworddancer. -> kary
j -> circus -> ranmaru
ranmaru -> j -> rockin -> sworddancer. -> kuz
circus -> kuz
sworddancer. -> j -> none -> ranmaru -> none -> bardull
nabe -> circus
kuz -> j -> soup -> ranmaru
kataefi -> kuz -> sworddancer. -> ranmaru -> bardull
hilt -> bardull -> kataefi -> j
kary -> hilt -> rockin
bardull -> kuz -> ranmaru

d1 ends 3/15 11:59:59 pm est

 

[#HBC | Dancer]

Wouldn't the same logic apply to Kuz? The difference between them? Is this more expectancy of Circus or just something general?

Kinda giving Kuz the benefit of the doubt because he's on spring break, and when he was posting he didn't seem to be going out of the way to make his posts look good.

 

[#HBC | Dancer]

Brb mom want me to clean Kitchen.

Also guys check out my totally new cool Naesala avatar. It's cool that I finally got an avatar, eh?

 

[#HBC | Dancer]

K back.

HEY! I saw you, PJB. Viewing the thread before I refresh, and BOOM! Gone as soon as I refresh! Tisk tisk tisk. With that approach son I may have to seriously reconsider my town read on you.

 

[BarDulL]

And here's my exceedingly long catch up post spanning from page 5 to page 13.

^It's also strange. I mean what is the point in highlighting insecurities in a game of mafia of all places? How is this condusive to finding scum?

@Swords: what have you learned from Khow people have mentioned/interacted with you up until now? A lot of your time is taken up by Soup --> are you leaning scum?

Here's my first qualm with Kataefi; Kataefi will point out that something is "strange" but he will not commit right away as to whether or not it's townie or scummy. This in itself isn't terribly scummy, but it's a little peculiar at first (words that are non-committal when it comes to alignment have the tendency to bug me). What actually drives me though is that the common sentiment at the time this post was made seemed to be that Sword's AtE (admitting to nervousness) was questionable at best since it wasn't necessary for the progression of the game per se (Sword could have just as easily affirmed that he was not nervous since Kary was, at least to me, going on a limb in regards to Sword's nervousness.) Kat calls it strange that Sword does this, but then he goes on to say that he is leaning Town on Sword when questioned by Kuzi in the next post. This action sounds off alarms because there seemed to be an inference from Kataefi that Sword was scummy (Sword was being "strange") but he later goes on to turn around and says something that wouldn't normally be expected.

Actually... omg! I've just realised something. I'm null on both in terms of reads, though at this most present time I think I might be starting to lean Town on swords!

i think the ran wagon needs some development because i've seen him look at the thread multiple times now and run away... which is wasting time!

As previously mentioned, after Kuzi asks Kataefi what his read on Soup/Sword is, Kataefi responds with this after saying that Sword was "strange." It just feels like a scummy backpedal when things seemed to be looking brighter for Sword.

Kat bothers me, like every one of his posts have made me cringe so far. Twice now he's talked about "reserving judgement" or waiting, as well as sitting on the fence whenever possible. Doesn't make a solid stance but makes sure to chime in on the major topics of discussion to seem like a presence. Playing extremely safe. I don't have any strong scumpicks at this moment, but Kat is the closest to it at the time being.

Vote: Kataefi

This is a great way of putting it. Couldn't have said it better myself.

BarDull, what's your current read on J? Have you read the whole thread before making that post?

J is virtually nonexistent right now, so unfortunately I can't provide anything of prevalence.

The scummiest things I see is Swords and Soup going after each other. I don't think it's entirely unreasonable to think there's a scummer in there, but I wouldn't throw the possibility of TvT out the window either. I think there's something there, but I don't think it'll be useful until later in the game, when more than 2 things have happened.

It could be this, but it could also be this, so basically this post is noncommittal. I do not like that PJB is attempting to keep his options open here.

I saw that it ended, that doesn't change the fact that it happened. The scumminess is not within the points either of you raised, because the whole thing was foolish. The scumminess is in the fact that you both were just oh so willing to butt heads.

I also didn't say I thought it was SvT or TvT either. I actually thought it was more likely to be SvS, or TvT. The whole interaction read kind of disingenuous to me on both sides.

The reason why I dislike PJB is because of his tendency to be noncommittal while sidelining. This can be illustrated clearly in a lot of his posts. And if he demonstrates commitment, it isn't a very strong. Also based on what I have seen, he hasn't taken the initiative to attack and is putting up his usual defense of speaking only when he's called out. This type of play is very semblant of his scum play in Persona Mafia.

I have, in fact, read. I already commented on Ranmaru though. I don't think there's anything about Ranmaru, himself, to go on. I'm content to continue watching the wagon play out, and see how I like the way people handle it.

And if you're trying to say that the J wagon was also a thing, then I feel sorry for you.

You DID comment on Ranmaru, but it was actually quite short lived and, yet again, non committal.

This is me not fulfilling what I said I was going to do earlier today. Wish I could say it was just studying, but slacking did have a part in it.

Anyways, for now I'll just post my reads list and explain later.

Town:

Ran
Kuzi
Kary
PJB

town lean:

J

null:

Circus
Nabe
BarDull

People who I want to look into:

Katefti
Soup
Hilt
Rockin

The way I'm looking at it is that I got four people who I'm fairly sure are town, and I need to find the other five.

Most paranoid of Katefi for the time being, but need to clarify things. Hilt brought up an interesting point about Kat and despite how much more he has contributed than most people, I can't but shake the feeling that his scumhunting in not genuine. Either more on this tonight or tomorrow.

Sword, talk to me about why you felt Ran/Kary/PJB are Town in this post. I do not see how you could come up with PJB Town based on his play so far considered his non commitment and low contribution. If anything, null or scum. Glad you share a common interest in Kataefi, but that can just as easily be you parroting Hilt.

Off the top of my head I'd choose one of Bardull/Soup out of the peeps laying low at this moment. I quite like Nabe but I agree he needs to post more, same with Circus. Soup mainly because now that he's made a "mistake" on Swords and went all emo... where does that leave him now? I don't know a lot about him outside of this. I'd like him to find a footing on the game and not lay so low, especially with that vote.

I need to look into Bardull more as I've seen him eyeing up the thread a couple of times and running away. I accept he's likely reading the game. It's more to do with why he joined ur wagon - he stated he found what you said contrived... but not scummy... then suddenly goes on to talk about what you did a lot and then force himself to place a vote on you... despite supposedly not finding what you did scummy? Seems strange...

Ran do you know how to ISO?

First point of contention here: Kataefi says he likes Nabe. Wat. I mean, I won't deny that Nabe is one cool baller dude, but I have no reason to like him in this game at this point in time. This is semblant of Ran's attack on my slot for my Napoleon Dynamite picture...it just doesn't make sense.

Second point: you say I'm acting strange and continue to be non-committal while inferring that the actions I'm taking are scummy (why else would I force myself to place a vote on Ran?) For the record, my vote on Ran was well grounded and I don't see anything fundamentally wrong with it. Call me curious, but why do you feel that I was "forcing myself to vote for Ran"?

Omg Sim City... it has me utterly HOOKED!





I understand you've dropped the Bardull read but the bolded caught my attention - you stated you're looking to see if Bardull can clarify the gif, and in another post you state you are wrong and lost control. What made you drop the Bardull read? And if you're dropping this entirely, what exactly do you think of him right now considering you were somewhat serious in your read before?



It's exactly what it looks like. Between that post and the one after, I realised something that changed my mind. What I realised is assumptious and so is not something I'd like to elaborate on right now.

Curiously, what was the point of your indie statements? And why did you consider joining the ran wagon only after I called you Town?



I quite like Nabe But this is based entirely on a whim. He said something along the lines of "If you want my attention, please ask me questions" and I liked this, mainly because it's self-centred. I can't imagine an inactive scummy saying these types of phrases and then disappearing, because how can he predict what kind of attention he'll get? It could be bad attention for all we know... This will develop the more he posts!

I like kuz only because I like the plan. I haven't found a hole in it. I'm not very good at finding holes in plans, but everyone seems happy and I can't imagine (yet) that he is setting this up for the benefit of his scumteam, because it benefits this team very little if you consider the odds. Why would scum be the first faction to bring this up?

J I liked for his vote on Ran. He saw exactly what I saw. BUT I do agree that he has gone quiet. So I'd also like to see more of him now.

And Kary is of the Mariah variety. I especially like his flavour. Also I quite liked how he was content with the ran wagon - he didn't appear to cockblock it in any sense yet still disagreed, a moment that made me think he's alone in this game.



Oooomg hilt what are you smoking? There's a couple of points I want to kill kill kill:

Firstly, why wouldn't I want to get involved in popular topics? I had to do a double take here. Every townie should be getting involved... That is a bad basis for thinking someone is SCUMMY!

Secondly, Bardull suspected that I was scum with Ranny, setting him up for a fall. This is why I requoted what I said on this pairing, reserving judgment for obvious reasons. I mean what did you actually expect me to do at this point? Seriously push for a Ran/Bardull connection even though Bardull had only posted once and I was asking Ran questions? (lol) What I did was perfectly assumptious and justifiable. It isn't playing safe, rather it's being rational in my thought process!

Also in case you didn't notice, I ninja'd J, so I should have been the main proponent of the Ran wagon. You can see where I begin to get my thoughts as early as post #90, where I question how he interpreted my post differently with Bard's. I've been generally quite vocal about him... this really isn't playing safe, at any angle you look at it. I also slightly disagree with what you said about people reserving votes, but we won't be going there for the sake of the game.

Plz move ur vote away from my swag mobile plz

Kataefi, I continue to find your reasoning on multiple accounts shammy. Your reasoning for liking Nabe in this post is a complete stretch. Also, liking Kuz for something as mechanical as the plan he came up with seems like a stretch as well; you seem to be picking your allies too easily and on short-lived whims. So far, I have no reason to believe you are Town.

Also, when did I say I suspected you of being scum with Ran? (Albeit I'm not denying it as a serious possibility at this point in time...but the difference here is that it's "this point in time" and not when I made my second post of the game.

Yes. It seemed like Kary was grasping straws and just randomly chose who to pressure, then try and make someone else do the work for them. The act in itself seem scummy.

I look forward to hearing from your scum picks



But he HAS ben inactive. Throughout the entire days, he has not said anything of worth till most recent, and he still needs to comment on his thoughts thus far with other people.

Are you sure you're reading this game right, kat?

Mock all you want, I'm still not seeing anything townie from this inactive. It doesn't make much sense whatsoever, and your vison of not seeing nabe scummy (inactive or not) is silly.

I'm glad someone else brought this up. Kudos. This is why I like Rockin, for the record.

It wasn't really anything specific. The first time I read you guys, it didn't seem like much of anything, so I reread it to try and get more feels from it. After reading it again, the whole thing felt kind of manufactured on both sides, probably because I was just looking too hard to find something. After looking at it again, I felt like I was actually nodding along with you, and soup seemed like he was trying to paint you as scummy.

Even after he "realized he was on the wrong track", the phrasing he used indicated that he still wanted it to seem like he had legitimate reasons to suspect you, but he never said what they were. It's like he was waiting for the rest of town to bite on it, and see if he could still swing you. But nobody did, and when I asked him about it just now, he wrote it off in a way that doesn't really make sense to me. His phrasing at the end of your interaction "I think not everything is completely busted, however" sounded like he thought he still had a case against you, but when I questioned him, he just claimed "the interaction wasn't busted. I got a townread on swords." Where'd he get a townread from? He thought you were scum before that, and when it turned out that all the scummy stuff was just bunk, how do you not just become null after that? I think soup was just fishing around, and came up empty handed, so now he's townreading you to make sure he doesn't get any more flak.

This is the most content I've seen from PJB all game, and it's not bad, but I still have qualms with the slot, predominantly the fact that he is responsive/defensive and not more on the ball with his play.

I would like J and Bardull to explain why Ranmaru is the play toDay.

I have qualms with the Ran slot for a trillion different reasons. His early game wasn't that great and I'm not sure why people are labeling him as being off the hook. In the words of Kuzi, I wasn't impressed with Ran's response either towards the allegations made to him early game, and I also haven't seen anything that screams out to me as being townie; Ran hasn't been playing to his standard meta of asking questions and, based on what I can see, seems to be piggybacking Soup's reasoning on Kuzi now while not really pushing his own reads (kinda ironic considering Ran said Kuzi was piggybacking everyone else...).

I'm content with a Ran lynch or a Kat lynch at this point in time. One will flip scum, or both.

Response to J:



I wasn't pandering to Kuz. Notice that Soup was on there too. I was saying that because I wanted people to know that I was liking some of the wagoners (except Swords). That's what I meant by 'kinda cool', meaning almost the whole wagon. I didn't think scum would be enthusiastic about joining your wagon that early, so that's what I based it off of. It wasn't anything solid.



No. I agreed with his post. I didn't notice the vote though. I don't think I had to give more detail at that time, since it was borderline-RVS. I always ask people to join me.



So has this affected your read on him?



It's more of gut, and me looking off the wagon. It wasn't anything solid, and I will be looking to see if Bardull can clarify the gif.



Kat was joking in his post alongside his vote. Bardull's vote was vague, and I was just looking at people off of the J wagon to see who may be scum from it. Bardull's did have a gif with it, but I didn't understand what the Gif meant without context. (Reasoning/statement/caption)



I meant individually. I just was too lazy to say "And I think they both invidiually fit into the picture" or something like that. I didn't see any connections between them.

[/quote]

Ran, look at Soup's first vote in the game. Then look at mine. Then look at everyone else's RVS votes. You're still trying to grasp at this idea that my vote was somehow different from everyone else's, but it really wasn't. It's Napoleon Dynamite doing a dance followed by a vote for crying out loud! It also says "Vote Pedro" on his shirt; fitting for RVS, don't you think?

First problem I see with revealing who we would hide behind is that it could give scum better odds at getting a 2 for 1. If a good number of us list X as our choice, and X is town, mafia can target him for the kill and have a better chance of grabbing the hider as a result. I was okay with the plan until that popped into my mind.

We'll have to split it up a bit, but it's a good plan since it leaves us a list of the hider's results.

@Soup:
Post #97

Gut. I didn't have any problems with you, Kuz, or J at the time, so that was my conclusion, yet weak. Also consider I was trying to shake things up. It was borderlind RVS, so I felt trivial suspicions would be fine as the game progressed. I don't think there was a really serious wagon until me. Just trying to explain what I was doing.

Some reads:

I'm liking Soup, J, and Kary the most. I can see Soup is pushing for things he finds questionable, he quickly discusses with people over things he may find stupid (#97), not pushing in a direction just to gain a lynch. J I find his stances passionately townie, just wrong. He thinks I'm pandering to Kuzy because of being a stronger player than me, but I wouldn't just hide behind him, I'll deal with him if I feel I have to. I'll try. Now, his other reason, he feels that my Rockin read is made up. It wasn't, I just agreed with Circus's reasoning, and found Rocking suspicious because of that. There was nothing else I could find that was suspicious on page 2. (Except Swords and Bardull, Swords being a legit read here while my others were weak or just agreed upon) I'm also liking Kary, seems well opionated, don't see him really trying anything I would think scum would try to do. I will keep it at a town lean because I feel I would need to see more from Kary that I haven't already seen. (Like his pushes)

I'm dropping the Bardull read, he said it was RVS, and I was just thinking possibilities. So forget about it. If you guys still have issues with this, just speak.

Rockin vote was just to shake things up, I don't really think he's scum for voting somewhere and giving support elsewhere. I just think it's good to have half-scumreads at the beginning of the game to get a momentum. I don't have any problems with Rockin at this time.

Kuz, Circus, PJB, Nabe, and others are null. Kuz I feel I have to wait a bit longer to understand what he is doing and what he wants to do. I don't know why he agrees with the wagon on me, and do think he should explain this. Circus, PJB, and Nabe, I have to wait and see for their own pushes.

Another thing to consider, I think Kuz reasoning can support a TownSoup. I have modded Taco Bell maf while Soup was town, and he would push for whatever he felt was of concern to him, little or not. At times he may just be too focused on the smaller details than the bigger picture, but I don't find this as a suspicious trait for him, just more of a townSoup trait that I would expect him to do in his scumhunting.

I won't drop my Sword read though. I agree with Kuz that Sword admitting that he is indeed nervous invites more people to attack him for it, which would show he is possibly not scum for caring about someone else's words other than his own, meaning he isn't looking out for his own survival, but scum can do that to seem like they don't care. D: All this to say that I find that null. I would like for Kary to show what exactly he felt Swords was nervous about, and Swords can confirm or deny it and explain why.

Now, what I don't like is his change of reads on me. It's only been one day and a half that I wasn't here, and he already is fine with switching to me because I was having hard times responding to the 3p mafia (while I was mafia) while being interested in my other games. Sure, you want to use examples. I hate being mafia, because it makes me guilty. I got prodded 3 times in Rajam's game, I lurked pretty hard. :O Now so you guys can understand, you should all try to read Washed Laundry's Pokemaf game, and see that I was also being pushed on due to this reason. Zen was right, I dislike it, but I was just not as interested in the game as others. I like simpler games like this one. So usually, it's a case of interest, and how much time available I have to give to the games. Notice how i'm in less games than usual? I overloaded myself, and I took a break because of this. (Remember that I'll also have work and classes, so don't expect me to be on all frickin day) Now this is mostly for people going on my meta. If you are, I think you should read these to have a better understanding of my play.

Anyways, I find his switch to me opportunistic. I mean, I don't think he even waits for me to show up to just change it. He just states "You know... because he was lurking in one game, I think I can change reads now..." I mean I would understand if I have been playing other games while avoiding this one, and possibly being prodded as well, but again, it's only been a day and a half, and I have been having trouble with time in the other one as well. But here, it was solely due to a technical issue. I'm pretty damn interested in this game. Swords, did you check my other games to see if my activity lined up with this one?

Vote: Swords

This is the best I have right now. I don't see anything else of interest here. The only thing I want to see is votes from Circus, PJB, Soup, and I will eagerly await content from nabe. Would like to see Circus and PJB try to give some pushes, because I don't really know what they are trying to do. Nabe is understandable. Soup I trust.

Now to xbox live until later. :3 I bought lots of games (~$200) on the ultimate game sale. Psychonaughts, here I come.

I disagree with a lot of these reads. Namely J/Kary Town. Not that I don't think that Kary is Town, but that I haven't seen anything that glares at me just yet that proves his innocence. Same with J.

My bad guys I've been a bit busy today and will be tonight as well. Ran/PJB are 2 players I wouldn't mind gone. Ran is unconvincing - why didn't he declare internet problems earlier when he was observing the thread and as we were *****ing about him publicly? I've actually skimmed recent posts so when I'm around tomorrow I can look into his ones in a bit more detail and see if anything changes, but really I just don't get why any player would manifest a read out of completely nothing, especially when he said earlier he'd be saving his vote until later in the game, which makes me think he'd at least think things through a bit more rationally, right?...

PJB I find to be *****footing around doing nothing important. Aren't we all supposed to be scumhunters? Where is his vote and pressure? I don't think he's engaging with his scumspects at all, even if he has any...

I'm going to be looking into Soup/Bardull as well.

I'm liking Kary/J/Kuz and maybe Nabe. Everyone else is floating around in space

@Kuz your plan sounds good but not as a strategy we should use throughout the entirety of the game! I ran some numbers on my very retro calculator and the hider role becomes a risky one assuming a worse-case scenario toDay (hitting Town). There's a 1/3 chance in dying toNight with no vig. Obviously the odds continue to get worse as the game progresses.

I think a strat like this should be used toDay and possibly D2, and then not used beyond this. We don't want our hider dying mid-game when lynches are more crucial and there are 2 other roles that yield potentially good results. Also, one role we should all refuse to discuss is the detective/psychologist, because it's a big mixup that causes a lot of stress for our dear scummies on the run.



Er, where did you get twice from? Also there's nothing safe in calling for the death of a player at that stage in the game. If anything it's quite dangerous. Extremely safe players would be those who haven't placed their votes... can I invite you talk to about these players?

This post is kind of redeeming in that it highlights the points I have against PJB, but I still have qualms with the Kat slot. And he keeps calling Nabe Town...and Kary, but I'm not seeing the KaryTown evidence.

 

[BarDulL]

Vote: Kataefi

Consider my vote on Kat/Ran with a strong FoS at PJB.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

PJB, I don't get your sudden inclination that every easy lynch or pushing 'easy lynches' is a bad thing. I'm looking at your post on Kat and I really can't deal with your logic here. What justifies an easy lynch as being the lynch scum wants? Certainly, scum doesn't want to put nearly any effort into the game but what does it mean for the person getting pressured? Have you considered these thoughts? Are you going to just say that all easy lynches are scum-influenced and that they're just poor defenseless townies? I don't see you actually saying that, but I don't get the vibe that you dislike them or anything. What's your actual read on the players you mentioned? Do they hold relevance to Kat in any way?

I never claimed that easy lynches are a bad thing. But Kat has gone for nothing but easy targets. I'm not trying to say he's being lazy either, I think he's trying to get whatever lynch he can, when I'm not seeing anything from these people that makes them particularly lynch worthy. I'm certainly not seeing lynch worthy proof from Kat.

My read on Ran so far is that he's fine, and likely town. You're a town lean as well. BarDulL is pretty much still null, because he hasn't done too much yet. I wish I could say more about him, but I can't.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

K back.

HEY! I saw you, PJB. Viewing the thread before I refresh, and BOOM! Gone as soon as I refresh! Tisk tisk tisk. With that approach son I may have to seriously reconsider my town read on you.

I.. didn't go anywhere. I dunno why it would say I did, I was sitting in the reply window for a good like, half hour or so, cuz I was doing other stuff in another tab. I assure you, I was there all along.

inb4othertabclearlymafiaqt
(it was youtube )

 

[#HBC | Nabe]

Vote: Circus
We should do this. Could we do this?
(Back tomorrow!)

@Bard, skimmed you tonight but we need to have words.

 

[BarDulL]

Vote: Circus
We should do this. Could we do this?
(Back tomorrow!)

@Bard, skimmed you tonight but we need to have words.

While my post is exceedingly long, it's legit. Give it a read and then give me a spin.

 

[BarDulL]

Sword, your play is unparalleled whackness. Piggybacking Kataefi's push on me when his push is unsubstantiated in itself (isn't he just calling me out on inactivity when I haven't been able to get to a computer?) You say you agree with his points and that it's time to hardbody, but he hasn't made any points that require said hardbodying at this point in time. Can you go more indepth with what it is EXACTLY that you agree with regarding Kat's push on me?

 

[#HBC | Dancer]

Sword, your play is unparalleled whackness. Piggybacking Kataefi's p'ush on me when his push is unsubstantiated in itself (isn't he just calling me out on inactivity when I haven't been able to get to a computer?) You say you agree with his points and that it's time to hardbody, but he hasn't made any points that require said hardbodying at this point in time. Can you go more indepth with what it is EXACTLY that you agree with regarding Kat's push on me?

A man can't agree with a vote now&days withot "piggybacking it" is seems.

I agreed with him that your vote was placed on an easy wagon, although that may have been brash of me considering that you were only the third vote on the wagon? Perhaps not opportunistic like I was thinking.

I don't make assumptions about your activity. I don't care if you say you're gonna post, if you're beng inactive then I'm gonna vote ya.

Was not having a computer the reason you didn't post BarDull?

Hardbody thing was just a joke not necessarily directed at you.

Also saw your reads and was immediately turned off. Ran scum? Kat scum? PJB scum? ME KINDA scum? I was just like, "Oi, this can't be good."

 

[#HBC | Dancer]

I would actually like to see Nabe and BarDull "have words." I already have an opinion of BarDull's post, but I'll like to see what Nabe has to say.

 

[BarDulL]

A man can't agree with a vote now&days withot "piggybacking it" is seems.

I agreed with him that your vote was placed on an easy wagon, although that may have been brash of me considering that you were only the third vote on the wagon? Perhaps not opportunistic like I was thinking.

I don't make assumptions about your activity. I don't care if you say you're gonna post, if you're beng inactive then I'm gonna vote ya.

Was not having a computer the reason you didn't post BarDull?

Hardbody thing was just a joke not necessarily directed at you.

Also saw your reads and was immediately turned off. Ran scum? Kat scum? PJB scum? ME KINDA scum? I was just like, "Oi, this can't be good."

I have no qualms posting, but quoting posts and getting my points across is a tedious endeavor on an iPhone. Riddle me this, since it seems to be a point of contention: as scum, what was I trying to achieve by intentionally going inactive? Did it make sense for me to do so given the circumstances?

I legitimately think those 4 players are scummy. Would love to talk with you about your Ran/PJB/Kat reads.

 

[ranmaru]

Ran, look at Soup's first vote in the game. Then look at mine. Then look at everyone else's RVS votes. You're still trying to grasp at this idea that my vote was somehow different from everyone else's, but it really wasn't. It's Napoleon Dynamite doing a dance followed by a vote for crying out loud! It also says "Vote Pedro" on his shirt; fitting for RVS, don't you think?

I was fine with Soup's and Kuz's votes, because I felt they were simply to get a wagon and RVS moving. I agree that the 'vote pedro' on his shirt can be fitting. Yet, that's not what I see as a first impression. What I saw was some cool guy just enter and do this provocative dance! Plus a vote. I was just giving my thoughts at the time, which of course would be trivial, it was page 3 for god sakes. Don't just expect me to contribute to the early game by just asking questions. I also mentioned a game if you really want to attribute my meta to this. Washed Laundry's Pokemafia. I mentioned that Zen had a similar problem as to you are having. Also check out Nabe's Harry Potter Mafia. Early game. Then get back to me with your problem with my meta. Seriously, read that.

Also, I can see you having problems with differences in my play. I ask you to also read my most recent games, you might actually see similar play. When was the last time we played bro? Same goes to Nabe.

I never claimed that easy lynches are a bad thing. But Kat has gone for nothing but easy targets. I'm not trying to say he's being lazy either, I think he's trying to get whatever lynch he can, when I'm not seeing anything from these people that makes them particularly lynch worthy. I'm certainly not seeing lynch worthy proof from Kat.

So you aren't ok with lynching someone who has done nothing but lurk? Tell me, do you think mafia have reasons to lurk? Now after you answer that, tell me what you think would be the best option to find mafia in a town where half the player list is lurking.

Ok now about Kat. Now you say he's trying to get any lynch he can, so therefore you think he's scum. Who do you think is his scum buddies? Who do you think he is trying to avoid, based off his reads and and interactions? Then tell me if you'd like to wagon them with me.

HARD BODY

 

[ranmaru]

I see Hilt viewing right now, but he may be asleep. Hilt, if you're not, could you give me your opinion on Rockin?

Ran, same thing from you.

Oh just noticed this. He's cool with me. A bit of meta really. I feel ScumRockin would be a bit more... quiet. I guess I could say he was... a bit less confrontational, wasn't really stating things, just going around them. #274 and #404 are examples. Especially #404. He still seems somewhat jokey when the game has definetly progressed through RVS (yet it seems he is always jokey, but only around rvs this time around) and the only 'content' at that time was "lol are you sure about that os town read?". Further on in the game he always seemed to be saying things like that to paint connections between himself and anyone else. It was a bit weird.

He even voted here, I just don't really feel Rockin scum here.

 

[ranmaru]

I forgot to mention, those two examples are from Celeb Rehab Mafia.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

I never claimed that easy lynches are a bad thing. But Kat has gone for nothing but easy targets. I'm not trying to say he's being lazy either, I think he's trying to get whatever lynch he can, when I'm not seeing anything from these people that makes them particularly lynch worthy. I'm certainly not seeing lynch worthy proof from Kat.

This is still all your opinion. What justifies the line between 'easy lynch/push' and vice-versa?

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Umm, I suppose it's possible that Nabe might be one of Kat's scummates, but I'm not willing to lynch Nabe based on a connection to Kat without seeing Kat's flip first.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

This is still all your opinion. What justifies the line between 'easy lynch/push' and vice-versa?

What's the difference between an easy lynch and a difficult one? Why, the difficulty of course. If someone is already getting sideways glances from the other players, or is a weaker player who is less capable of justifying their actions, they are an easier lynch. I really don't know what to tell you.

 

[ranmaru]

Ok, but you forgot to answer the first part of my question. Do that.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

Yeah, but as you've already attributed before that these things change. What seems easy to you really just boils down to 'inactive and not being able to defend himself; less capable.' This leads me to want to understand why you think all those easy pushes could be town, and that there isn't a different perspective to all this. What could be Kat's town intention in all this?

 

[#HBC | Joker]

So you aren't ok with lynching someone who has done nothing but lurk?

Who are we talking about here? This describes oh so many people.

Tell me, do you think mafia have reasons to lurk?

I absolutely think Mafia have reasons to lurk, but I think townies can also appear to be lurking without having any malicious intent. You have to look at it on a case by case basis, so lurking is not inherently scummy all on it's own.

Now after you answer that, tell me what you think would be the best option to find mafia in a town where half the player list is lurking.

Find somebody who is not inactive to swing. That way, you have things to look at and draw connections from when they flip, instead of just the knowledge that you've trimmed the playerlist by one inactive.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Yeah, but as you've already attributed before that these things change. What seems easy to you really just boils down to 'inactive and not being able to defend himself; less capable.' This leads me to want to understand why you think all those easy pushes could be town, and that there isn't a different perspective to all this. What could be Kat's town intention in all this?

I'm not sure what you're getting at. you think I'm townreading all the people that Kat has pushed, simply based on the fact that he's pushing them? Nope, that's not true at all, my reads stand on their own. I do not think Kat is scummy for pushing townies, and I do not think people are townies because kat is pushing them. Lets look at his pushes, and the reads I've given them.

Ran, one of the first wagons to pop up in the game. I've been watching this wagon develop, and it all seemed like bull**** to me. nothing about Ran's play struck me as scummy, so why would I be inclined to label him as scum? He was null for awhile, and I eventually labeled him as town, which I think was around the time he did a catchup? I'd have to look back.

BarDulL, straight null, anyone who tries to justify any other read on him is likely to be very full of ****.

Soup, I don't think I need to justify this one, you know I've already questioned and interacted with you on my own, completely independent of anything having to do with Kat...

Myself, obviously I know what my alignment is, so that also has nothing to do with Kat. It's kind of in my role PM.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

Not really what I wanted, but I think you're trying to be logical about all this.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

As for Kat's town intention in the whole matter, I don't particularly see it. I know he hasn't actually addressed me directly for like, the whole game. And I've been on his scumspect list that whole time, for what seems like pretty wishy washy reasoning.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

I don't think he's trying to read me, I think he's trying to lynch me. that's the point I'm gettign at, and it's something I see in a lot of what he's been doing.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

I was definitely asleep when you asked me that quesetion, Swords. Catching up from yesterday. Got to Bardull's wall and damn I'm gonna need like a hot bowl of soup and two cups of coffee. Swag. Gonna make that and then finish my read up.

 

[Kataefi]

yeah there's lots to respond to.

Just a heads up - my voters are butthurt for being called out. You can see this pattern in Bardull's voting record also. Why else would they arrive in-thread exactly at the moment I called for their lynches and BOTH suddenly suspect me?

Anyway my reads seem to be getting scrutinised this much because they're more accute than the vague **** being thrown around - there's much more there to pick at. It's too easy to say something felt "natural" and "genuine", just because. I like to go specific about what reeeeeeeeeally makes me think what I think, and this is consistent every Town game. I'm sooooo relieved (and surprised!!!) Swords brought this up, considering he was setting himself in a position to go against me. I feel confident in this guy right now. Those that dislike my methods should be having a gander at the archives, really.

kk let me address tweedle dee and tweedle dumb next you have to bear with me due to work shenanigans

 

[DtJ Hilt]

Not too fond of Rockin. Says in his 299 that he has (at least) two players that he would want gone toDay, but doesn't list them. And still hasn't, as far as I can see. Says that they're those that aren't being helpful and that he's going to do another look over for the players. Doesn't get back to us about this look over and doesn't mention the two+ players that he "wanted gone".

When he does come back, he criticizes the concept of lynching an inactive, but gives in and decides that we may not have a much better choice this D1. Going back to his original criticism, he states that it'd be better if we would lynch someone found scummy, yet hardly offers any insight into his scumpicks. He attacked Kary originally, so I guess that's something. Didn't mention any preferences for lynch when giving his opinion against going for an inactive, but says he's going to do a reread. Really feels like he's speaking as a third party, if that makes any sense. It probably doesn't. I hope it does.

Rockin, in your mind, what are the main differences in an inactive player and an unhelpful player? Would they be more like Squares vs Rectangles or 360 vs PS3?

I'd ask for your reads, but you've already said you hoped to have them ready by yesterday. Late fees aren't so bad.

I'd be fine with a Rockin lynch, especially with the time we have remaining.

Bardull's post was alright. I didn't like it as much as I did his others, way back on page five (such as his conversation with Soup), but I liked his mention of PJB's gravitation to options. It was something I know he had to have looked for and legit in credibility.

Swords, are you for a Rockin lynch? Is that why you asked me? I'm worried about us having to scramble too close to deadline, so it'd be best if we all knew where we all stood.

I don't like the idea of a Ranmaru lynch. Kat I'd rather hold off from for toDay but I'm willing to jump back on if nothing else. J is who I'd like gone the most and I've stated my stance on Rockin in this post. I'd rather see either of them gone the most.

 

[BarDulL]

yeah there's lots to respond to.

Just a heads up - my voters are butthurt for being called out. You can see this pattern in Bardull's voting record also. Why else would they arrive in-thread exactly at the moment I called for their lynches and BOTH suddenly suspect me?

I'm not butthurt; your attempts to undermine my position don't mean anything in the face of the logic I've presented. If I'm scum, then the route I've taken isn't a true one and you can find the discrepancies, but I assure you that there are none.

 

[BarDulL]

I actually like Rockin despite popular opinion since he's a combatant in arms against Kataefi, but also because he was one of the first people alongside Hilt to address some of the flaws in Kataefi's play (how does anyone have Nabe Town considering all that's been said?) I don't really know what to say about his knee-jerk vote on Kary though, but Katscum = Rockintown based on their earlier interactions.

 

[#HBC | Dancer]

*sigh*

You know, I wanted to wait for Nabe to get here to talk to you, but he ain't gonna show up. Lets talk BarDull.

Firstly, about Ran, who I'm pretty unwavering on.

I simply don't see what the fuss is about wrt Ran. Even after rereading your big catch up post, you only mention him twice. Once because of the fact that he stated suspicion of you based on a RVS post, and the other were he gave out a bunch of reads. The lather of the two posts you only responded with saying that you disagreed with "a lot of" his reads. So what? Does that make him scummy? What about the reasoning he uses? Do you think that something's "off" about the way he's arriving at his reads, and if so, why?

For the second post, you brought up the point again that his stated suspicion of you was dumb. Okay, true. So what? Don't you think that you've been hammering on this point for far too long? Is there NOTHING that can be said that will convince you otherwise? What about his activity, and everything else he's done? Is that not influencing your read.

Also, let me flip this equation around: Why would a scum Ran (or really, a scum anyone) do something that SO OBVIOUSLY looks contrived? The type of case Ran made (which btw, he himself never player up, originally he just said [and I paraphrase]: "I'm a little suspicious about BarDull's post . . . but he may just be being dumb.") is the sort of thing scum usually ties to AVOID doing. Taking this into consideration, do you still think that scum Ran did it? If so, then why?

Next, Katefi.

Right from the start I'll say that my town read on Kat wavers a lot. I already went over this, but there are just too many times were his scumhunting involved calling people out for generic things, or writing something that sounded forced, or giving players (*ahem*) unwarranted town reads for me to be completely comfortable with him. However, no matter how much black haterd my heart is filled with for Kat's slot, my brain keeps telling it to settle down after observing, and reobserving, and rereobserving the situation. Looking at the "big picture" for his play, I'm seeing someone who cares more than half the player list to actually make a post. I'm also seeing someone who's putting effort into the game, someone who has something on their mind and is saying it (something I consider townie).

This said, I'm not going to counter any points you said about Kat in particular in your catch up post. I'll like Kat to address this himself. I'll also like to see him get to my points that I made against him yesterday.

Finally, PJB.

TBH I can see why people would find him scum. He has made many post were he talks about a popular topic, but goes wishy-washy on it for awhile. Like after me vs. Soup, he made a super noncommittal post about how it was either TvT or SvT. Later he changed his position to Soup, I believe after Kuzi stated suspicion of Soup? Nothing about that I can defend. It does read grade A opportunistic and fence sitting.

The reasoning I'm town reading him though is because of how responsive he is. People ask him questions, and he comes in and answers. Sound simple, well consider this angle: It shows to me that he already has an opinion in his mind. He's thinking, not just reacting. I'm actually using the same meta that you were using earlier, but just interpreting it differently. In Persona mafia, he choose his words carefully. He thought about how others would perceive him, and I'm just not seeing that here. So in summary, I'm town reading PJB because I think that his input is genuine (don't kill me Kat) and I don't see a concern for self-image here.

If I'm wrong about any of these three though, it's PJB.

BarDull, any inactive that you'll like to see gone to Day? It seems very likely to me that we might go down that path.

@Hilt: Not my favorite lynch, no. Would prefer Nabe/Circus/maybe BarDull depending on his response over him. Wouldn't NOT join it though if that's how the cards fell though.

 

[#HBC | Dancer]

Ninja'd me with good timing there Bar.

 

[BarDulL]

I was fine with Soup's and Kuz's votes, because I felt they were simply to get a wagon and RVS moving. I agree that the 'vote pedro' on his shirt can be fitting. Yet, that's not what I see as a first impression. What I saw was some cool guy just enter and do this provocative dance! Plus a vote. I was just giving my thoughts at the time, which of course would be trivial, it was page 3 for god sakes. Don't just expect me to contribute to the early game by just asking questions. I also mentioned a game if you really want to attribute my meta to this. Washed Laundry's Pokemafia. I mentioned that Zen had a similar problem as to you are having. Also check out Nabe's Harry Potter Mafia. Early game. Then get back to me with your problem with my meta. Seriously, read that.

Also, I can see you having problems with differences in my play. I ask you to also read my most recent games, you might actually see similar play. When was the last time we played bro? Same goes to Nabe.

Ran. Oh. My. God. I'm not going to discuss this ad nauseum with you, but really, Soup's FIRST post of the game was a .gif of some dude in a church or something making an airplane gesture and then flying into the sky while transforming into a jet followed by a vote. -________________________-;;. You're killing me, smalls. Alright, I'm just going to drop this point of contention for the time being because we'd just be butting heads.

The last time we played a game together was Persona Mafia, which wasn't that long ago. There's a fundamental difference in your play this game and I'm not entirely certain what it means. You're just not...standard Ranmaru. Something's different. That's a bit vague coming from me, but it mostly has to do with your general bubbly personality not being so...bubbly per se. I don't see the typical questions or typical Ranmaru scum hunting that I'm familiar with. Or the quick posts you have the tendency to make. You also seem more calculated in your approach.

 

[BarDulL]

I guess the only non-calculative aspect had to have been the push on me, which has been the one mistake in your play so far.

Also, swordninja rightbackatya.

 

[#HBC | Dancer]

OMG stop being bad at using meta guys!

"This person isn't doing exactly what I'll expect him to do to the T as town, therefore I think their suspicious."

Not even a pro-Ran thing guys, just a "Get better" sort of thing.

 

[BarDulL]

*sigh*

You know, I wanted to wait for Nabe to get here to talk to you, but he ain't gonna show up. Lets talk BarDull.

Firstly, about Ran, who I'm pretty unwavering on.

I simply don't see what the fuss is about wrt Ran. Even after rereading your big catch up post, you only mention him twice. Once because of the fact that he stated suspicion of you based on a RVS post, and the other were he gave out a bunch of reads. The lather of the two posts you only responded with saying that you disagreed with "a lot of" his reads. So what? Does that make him scummy? What about the reasoning he uses? Do you think that something's "off" about the way he's arriving at his reads, and if so, why?

For the second post, you brought up the point again that his stated suspicion of you was dumb. Okay, true. So what? Don't you think that you've been hammering on this point for far too long? Is there NOTHING that can be said that will convince you otherwise? What about his activity, and everything else he's done? Is that not influencing your read.

Also, let me flip this equation around: Why would a scum Ran (or really, a scum anyone) do something that SO OBVIOUSLY looks contrived? The type of case Ran made (which btw, he himself never player up, originally he just said [and I paraphrase]: "I'm a little suspicious about BarDull's post . . . but he may just be being dumb.") is the sort of thing scum usually ties to AVOID doing. Taking this into consideration, do you still think that scum Ran did it? If so, then why?

Arbitrarily contrived rationale for pushing against someone is scummy because it's not genuine, so yes, his push on me was scummy because there was practically no difference between mine and everyone else's RVS posts. Even you have to admit that the push for my Napoleon Dynamite post was a stretch. He postulates that his read was legit, but ohmygorf. Seriously. Look at RVS posts, then look at mine, then look at Ran's train of thought. Something ain't right. What makes you think Ran is being genuine and that he's not trying to backpedal out of a fundamental mistake?

I don't agree with his reads and how he's getting to them. For instance, if I remember correctly, he had a town read on PJB who had essentially not posted much content at the time Ran gave his town read on PJB. PJB's play thus far as surmounted to responsive behavior followed by indecisiveness wrt Soup/Sword wagon. How is that telling of towniness? Call me crazy, but anyone calling PJB Town at that stage of the game is on somethin'. Do you think PJB was deserving of a pass at that point in the game? If not, what does that say for your read on Ranmaru?

Activity is not telling of towniness or scuminess per se; JTB is a prime example of this. He's inactive as Town or Scum and said activity level really should never be used as a variable for determining alignment unless you're using specific based meta. For the record though, Ranmaru disappeared for a few days when pressure on him rose, so in accordance with that logic, shouldn't you be eyeing Ran with more suspicion since he only picked up on activity when pressure was lifted off of him?

Your last question WRT Ran can go both ways, it's really a question of whether or not scumRan would do it. Would he? Yes. He would certainly pick at something like that and push it. Would TownRan have done it? I feel that TownRan would be more careful in choosing his allies, but he has been choosing said allies pre-emptively when they don't have substantial credibility to back themselves up. What does that say about Ran's slot to you?

Next, Katefi.

Right from the start I'll say that my town read on Kat wavers a lot. I already went over this, but there are just too many times were his scumhunting involved calling people out for generic things, or writing something that sounded forced, or giving players (*ahem*) unwarranted town reads for me to be completely comfortable with him. However, no matter how much black haterd my heart is filled with for Kat's slot, my brain keeps telling it to settle down after observing, and reobserving, and rereobserving the situation. Looking at the "big picture" for his play, I'm seeing someone who cares more than half the player list to actually make a post. I'm also seeing someone who's putting effort into the game, someone who has something on their mind and is saying it (something I consider townie).

This said, I'm not going to counter any points you said about Kat in particular in your catch up post. I'll like Kat to address this himself. I'll also like to see him get to my points that I made against him yesterday.

Again, activity isn't telling of alignment, and you shouldn't be using that as criterion. I'm Town and yet you suspected me of being scum because I couldn't reach a computer to make a big post. Giving Kataefi a pass because he's being active will only get us killed; there are a lot of flaws in his play that you are waving off because of "activity" and it won't help us find scum.

Finally, PJB.

TBH I can see why people would find him scum. He has made many post were he talks about a popular topic, but goes wishy-washy on it for awhile. Like after me vs. Soup, he made a super noncommittal post about how it was either TvT or SvT. Later he changed his position to Soup, I believe after Kuzi stated suspicion of Soup? Nothing about that I can defend. It does read grade A opportunistic and fence sitting.

The reasoning I'm town reading him though is because of how responsive he is. People ask him questions, and he comes in and answers. Sound simple, well consider this angle: It shows to me that he already has an opinion in his mind. He's thinking, not just reacting. I'm actually using the same meta that you were using earlier, but just interpreting it differently. In Persona mafia, he choose his words carefully. He thought about how others would perceive him, and I'm just not seeing that here. So in summary, I'm town reading PJB because I think that his input is genuine (don't kill me Kat) and I don't see a concern for self-image here.

If I'm wrong about any of these three though, it's PJB.

BarDull, any inactive that you'll like to see gone to Day? It seems very likely to me that we might go down that path.

Throw me a bone here Sword, how does him being responsive read to you as Town? PJB played exactly just like that in Persona Mafia and he was scum. He's also not taking the initiative to scum hunt and only gets up when he's called upon. You're also making a giant leap here to postulate that he was being very calculating while he's not doing the same exact thing here.

If I had to hit any of the inactives, J is the most inactive and I wouldn't mind plowing him because there's no guarantee for contribution. Circus/Nabe on the other hand are slightly more active and are thus guaranteed to contribute in time, but I'd have to see more from both of them before making a decision. Either way, I don't have clear reads on any of these players and need more time to make a better decision in that regard. I would largely prefer offing scum though on the premise that recklessly hitting nulls/inactives can't be healthy, but pressuring them a bit? Absolutely.

 

[BarDulL]

OMG stop being bad at using meta guys!

"This person isn't doing exactly what I'll expect him to do to the T as town, therefore I think their suspicious."

Not even a pro-Ran thing guys, just a "Get better" sort of thing.

I could say the exact same thing to you. Town reading PJB when he's being responsive is the bad news bears.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

How am I being responsive? I'm not scumreading Kat because I was called upon, i'm scumreading him because I'm done pushing soup, and I think Kat is scum. What was I responding to when I voted for Kat?

Nothing.