Elements and Attributes Mafia - Game Over!

[Scylla & Charybdis]

ebwop: but I don't see any mention of the other side, how it hurts hunting scum.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Being wagoned and briefly put at L-1 in RVS will do that to you. I get that you're just asserting dominance, but other people don't seem to think so. AM, for example, thinks the wagon "has teeth". I did think that Ryu thought the wagon had some real merit, but he just ignored it when I questioned him about it. Everyone's just eager to keep putting pressure on me because you've somehow convinced them that I will crack.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

ebwop: but I don't see any mention of the other side, how it hurts hunting scum.

I don't think self preservation does hurt scum hunting, at least not by necessity. A lot of people do get distracted by it and stop scumhunting, but that's just because they're doing it wrong.

 

[Scylla & Charybdis]

Oh it has teeth now, because you reacted poorly to it. I just need to decide whether it's pure weakness or your part or you're scum.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

I don't think my reaction was that bad. Considering the fact that I'm town, anything being viewed as scummy is just clear misinterpretation.

 

[Kantrip]

So what? Self preservation is pretty vital, unless you're fool and love to attract attention.

The point is that self-preservation was the only point Joker brought up. If I were to cite a drawback of sheeping it would be that you're not thinking for yourself and could therefore be liable to following a flawed thought process. Furthermore, he could have used the reasoning that if you're following scum you're not going to hit scum because you'll be sheeping their mislynches. Instead, all he focused on was that if you sheep scum you'll look bad later. I have a major problem with this line of thinking.

 

[Handorin]

Putting that first over scum hunting is not something a townie should do.

Correct. But you can do both at the same time. But I understand what you're saying, as well as other points people are bringing up, Potassium, etc.

Hando, you scum again?

I'm always scum. Remember that part of our plan where you answer my questions I made earlier toDay, but if you don't I bus you? It's getting close to that time. Here, let me find my question for you.....ah here, "why do you assume I'm one of the few to actually say something about you assuming leadership? Have you gotten vibe from other games, or is it merely because I'm old school with "experience"?
Also, why Gheb?"

I don't like your phrasing. A lot of new players feel as you do, that self-preservation from lynches are important preemptively, but I don't see any mention of the. You seem overly nervous and timid given something that was initially just an RVS wagon/swiss asserting dominance.

Quoting for truth.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

The point is that self-preservation was the only point Joker brought up. If I were to cite a drawback of sheeping it would be that you're not thinking for yourself and could therefore be liable to following a flawed thought process. Furthermore, he could have used the reasoning that if you're following scum you're not going to hit scum because you'll be sheeping their mislynches. Instead, all he focused on was that if you sheep scum you'll look bad later. I have a major problem with this line of thinking.

But you asked me about sheeping S&C. Flawed thought processes shouldn't even be on the menu. I'll give you the point about mislynches though. However, it should be noted that I already stated that I don't think sheeping is a good idea anyway.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Don't have much time to post right now but I think that the first few pages have given us a lot of good stuff to talk about. Anybody who still thinks that PJB isn't a good lynch now is acting counter-factual imo. I'll chime in later with more to say.

@mod

I'm voting PJB since post #42.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Oh you got facts huh? Let's see those facts, Gheb. I'm sure I'll be very impressed by how irrefutable they are.

 

[Gova]

1. Handorin ()
2. BadWolf28738 ()
3. Aggressive Mediation ()
4. Dark Horse ()
5. Gheb_01 ()
6. JTB ()
7. frozenflame751 ()
8. Potassium (Foxy)
9. Sworddancer.()
10. Red Ruy ()
11. PrivateJoker-Brown (K, S&C, Sword, JTB, Gheb)
12. Foxy the Silver Fox ()
13. Scylla & Charybdis (RR)

Not voting: Handorin, BW, DH, FF, AM

With 13 playing it takes 7 lynch!

Deadline is Monday, May 27th at 11:59 CST (GMT-6).

 

[Aggressive Mediation]

I only just noticed this post in all the clutter that was popping up at the time.

What teeth did Swiss and Gheb give the wagon? Particularly, Swiss. What'd Swiss say that had you so convinced it was a good wagon? Quote it for me.

U can't see the benefit of an early wagon? Against the most defensive kind of player that could possibly exist? When he's already spreading FUD by discrediting power players? Like any other player in this game, S&S is innocent until proven guilty and therefore: Vote PrivateJoker-Brown

Here you show a fundamental lack of willingness to work alongside me.

Clearly your 'wagon' on Kantrip will be far more successful than a concerted push onto PJB who becomes agitated easily.

Please - show me your results since you seem so intent on halting mine.

Hence, not a simple RVS wagon. It's got an idea to it and they chose you for your history, not because they don't like you. The stuff said in pregame just gave them more reason to join it.

 

[Aggressive Mediation]

EBWOP: I ****ing hate Faceboards. This new format is total ass.

 

[Aggressive Mediation]

WL I think PJB doesn't react entirely well under pressure as either alignment. I'm trying to defer fake from real on this. I have mixed signals from him on how he is answering people.

Well, yeh, that's the point: he's reactionary. It's in his nature. You can read a person's intent so much easier when they lose their cool because they let things slip really easily and their true intentions aren't hidden.

 

[Aggressive Mediation]

For the record, the objective of town is to kill scum, how much attention you grab doing it is irrelevant. Town will defend themselves when necessary cause you don't want any confirmed town to die, but if no scum lynches happen, town loses by default because they're on a timer, every no lynch is a free scum kill but a town lynch is a faster route to endgame. So town needs to be pro-active and do what it takes to kill scum, only caring about self-defense if it's necessary to prevent a confirmed townie (to the townie, themselves) from dying.

There are finer points of putting this into practice, especially when you consider strong PRs, but the fundamental weakness that scum has is their priority is survival, town reveals scum by showing their priority is survival over killing scum. Of course, there are ******* town that do this too, but part of being a good townie is to recognize whether somebody is being dumb or scummy.

I wanna say I like this post but I have a feeling Adumb made it...

 

[Aggressive Mediation]

I don't consider "sheeping" and "scumhunting" to be synonymous. Maybe you do. Sheeping is something bad players do because they dunno how to play this game themselves. I'm not one of those players. Your entire argument is based on the premise that self preservation is less important than scumhunting. I don't think I have to sacrifice one for the other, though.

You can still agree with a man because he's right. If everyone refused to follow one another, no one would get lynched.

 

[Aggressive Mediation]

I don't think my reaction was that bad. Considering the fact that I'm town, anything being viewed as scummy is just clear misinterpretation.

This rubs me the wrong way.

 

[Handorin]

I actually thought the same thing but totally forgot about that since I was at work. I'll throw on a vote when I can get on a real computer.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Oh you got facts huh? Let's see those facts, Gheb. I'm sure I'll be very impressed by how irrefutable they are.

Have you gained any impression of what's happening and what the players are doing yet? If you want to give people a reason to think of you as town then you should - y'know - actually playing like town. Stopping to act like this game is all about you surviving and starting to share reads would be a start. You're not doing that and that *is* a fact. I've got more later but I think you have a lot of work to do so start doing work for once instead of making this game a matter about you being ... yourself.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Gheb_01 said: ↑

U can't see the benefit of an early wagon? Against the most defensive kind of player that could possibly exist? When he's already spreading FUD by discrediting power players? Like any other player in this game, S&S is innocent until proven guilty and therefore: Vote PrivateJoker-Brown

Scylla & Charybdis said: ↑

Here you show a fundamental lack of willingness to work alongside me.

Clearly your 'wagon' on Kantrip will be far more successful than a concerted push onto PJB who becomes agitated easily.

Please - show me your results since you seem so intent on halting mine.​

Hence, not a simple RVS wagon. It's got an idea to it and they chose you for your history, not because they don't like you. The stuff said in pregame just gave them more reason to join it.​

This is a post from Gheb, and it contains a post from S&C. The post from S&C is directed at another player, not me. If you think this post has anything to do with the "teeth" my wagon has, you are sadly mistaken.

Your vote on me reads as the most opportunistic by far. It's clear that you just threw your vote on a building wagon, and cited 2 power players as justification.

Vote: Aggressive Mediation

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Have you gained any impression of what's happening and what the players are doing yet? If you want to give people a reason to think of you as town then you should - y'know - actually playing like town. Stopping to act like this game is all about you surviving and starting to share reads would be a start. You're not doing that and that *is* a fact. I've got more later but I think you have a lot of work to do so start doing work for once instead of making this game a matter about you being ... yourself.

Oh look at that, I refuted the only "fact" you gave me.

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

OK, FUD might be a bit too harsh a word but the fact that you say "it remains to be seen whether he's town or not" bothers me. For two reasons mainly: first, what remains to be seen is whether he's scum or not because we're all innocent until proven guilty.

Gheb, do you actually believe this? Or are you just using extreme wording for the sake of argument? Real question.

 

[Handorin]

What is fud anyways? I'm too old school and out of the loop.

 

[Scylla & Charybdis]

FUD is a corperate term actually, "fear uncertainty doubt", generally applied to consultants who spread that baselessly.

Wrong head for your answer, I'm sure swiss will have plenty to say when he's done being drunk all weekend. Either way, not if we bus you first bro

 

[Scylla & Charybdis]

EBWOP: I ****ing hate Faceboards. This new format is total ***.

Handicapped searches, **** this new forum

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Oh look at that, I refuted the only "fact" you gave me.

You haven't refuted ****. You took the only argument I've had time to make and gave an halfassed response to it. If it's really necessary to wagon you to L-2 to even give some reads then lynching you is already more than justified. But when you mention only one lousy read, backed up by one very weak quotation and act as if you refuted anything then I really think it's time for you to roll over and die. Because it's obvious that your interest is entirely spent on you surviving and not one bit on town winning.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

@mod

Prods where applicable?

 

[Gova]

@mod

Prods where applicable?

Doesn't look like anyone is up for a prod yet. They have until about 9 PM CST.

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

Hi guys guess who's arrived

How did you answer your questions and why?

I said a bunch of evil stuff because I like playing scum so much more than town. I think my replies might have been so evil that Gova was like, "Man this guy clearly just wants scum." and gave me town.

Personally, I'm not of the opinion that sheeping somebody who's alignment you don't know is a good idea. Even if it's technically harmless, I'm not willing to put myself in a position where S&C flips scum later, and then people come in later saying stuff like "lol, look, pjb must be scum cuz he sheeped S&C early on!" Needlessly connecting myself to players I don't necessarily trust is just... not smart.

I find it pretty disgusting that your reasoning for not sheeping is due to self-preservation. That's really the big reason you're not willing to sheep someone?

I don't think my reaction was that bad. Considering the fact that I'm town, anything being viewed as scummy is just clear misinterpretation.

Bleck

Gheb, do you actually believe this? Or are you just using extreme wording for the sake of argument? Real question.

FF, what do you think of PJB?

 

[(:xXx11!1!LegOLAAAzz!!11XxX:)]

Joker are you okay with me sheeping S&C? If yes, mind if I buddy you?

Kantrip why did you ask this? Were you expecting a serious answer or no?

It felt like Kantrip was trying to lead PJB into a weak position. He asked him if it was ok to sheep you, and after PJB's response, he said this:





It's also good that he questions your alignment before thinking of sheeping you, yet Kantrip only votes him after.

I don't see any reason to join the PJB wagon. I do think you and Swords should explain why you think it is good to be on him, and Kantrip should explain why exactly he voted him.

What about Kantrip's posts made you think that he was "trying to lead PJB into a weak position?" Can you quote the for me and tell me why you're interpreting them that way?

Laundy should be payed attention to early, imo. He has the habit of starting off with an acceptable activity level and dropping various scumtells during Day 1 [check Ryu's Toonami and Golden Sun for reference]. Later in the game he has the tendency to become inactive and I have reason to believe that Ryker won't be that much more active. The earlier we can read the slot the sooner we can be sure whether we should lynch it or ignore it.

Gheb why did you feel the need to point this out? Even if it's true, don't you think that it might have influenced how he behaves in thread? Why WL specifically? You could probably call anyone and say "watch out for this guys meta guys, he usually does this so we should act upon it," so I'm just curious about why you added this seemingly random tidbit in your post when AM hasn't even posted yet.

Also, what do you think about Foxy?

OK, FUD might be a bit too harsh a word but the fact that you say "it remains to be seen whether he's town or not" bothers me. For two reasons mainly: first, what remains to be seen is whether he's scum or not because we're all innocent until proven guilty. You've twisting this inherently fundamental logic of scum hunting. As long as it's not being taken overboard then it's OK to sheep a power player a little and see what happens. It's not like we don't learn anything about the waggoned player, the "leader" and the sheeps. Discouraging a wagon on such principles is anti-town. Getting hooked on a provokative term like "sheeping" and "buddying" not a justficiation imo especially if you look at the way these terms have been handled in this game's context so far.

Second, you create a problem that doesn't exist. Why is it a problem that Kantrip chooses to sheep Swiss? Not only is Swiss' judgment more trustworthy than Kantrip but we can also learn a lot about the relationship between Kantrip and Swiss by seeing how far Kantrip is willing to sheep Swiss. All facts considered, it's pretty clear why the wagon makes sense and we might just found our first scumbag already. You can't hide behind your destructive cynicism forever.



I twisted your words? You said you don't see the reason to join the PJB wagon and I gave you some. That's not twisting words, in fact it's the opposite of it.

Gheb do you think PJB is being scummy or just anti town? You're voting him, but you're 47 seems to just make the case of PJB simply being anti town. Where is his scummy intent? Specifically your second paragraph. There you seem to be more or less on PJB's case for not thinking like you.


@PJB: Why do you think people are wagoning you? Do you think there is any benefit to your wagon? If so what is it? Ignore Gheb and S&C for now and focus on the others.

Sheeping, as far as I'm concerned, is following a player for the sake of who they are, as opposed to what they're actually doing.

I'm not failing to consider why they're sheeping, I'm operating under the assumption that if there's a good reason to do something, it's not sheeping.

Semantics. PJB I'm pretty sure RR wanted you/wasn't liking you for not considering why people were wagoning you. This happened with Gheb's 47 and your response (post 58) to it as well. I think you're missing the point about why early wagon can be good and instead focusing on the generic stuff (why baseless sheeping is bad and why one shouldn't place someone elses judegement about theirs). This is why I think it would be a good idea for you to answer my above question to you.

Tired as crap, skimmed. Will be happier and read more tomorrow. Right now first impressions are lots of annoying people who I wouldn't trust with my vote trying for thread power, who clearly forgot about Agressive Med. Basically that ****'s not going down, and it's not even my decision.

PJB is being.... PJB. I'm fairly certain that he's just being him but I'm going to read more in depth later.

School's almost out and so am I.

Can you go into more detail as to why "PJB is just being PJB?" Does that mean you're reading him as town? If so, what's giving you that impression?

I dislike this post. It states sheeping is bad because it could put you in a bad position later if you were sheeping scum and they flip. That drawback is purely self-preservation. I don't like that that is the kind of thing Joker is worried about.

Highly generic.

FoS: Kantrip

Going to lunch, will finish responding to stuff afterwards.

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

Highly generic.

How is that "Highly Generic"?

 

[Foxy the Silver Fox]

This Pjb wagon startred out strong but seems to be dying. The initial speed of this wagon initially gave me uncomfortable feels. Usually wagons that are that fast and easy are incorrect.

S&C what have the people wagoning pjb given you / how are you reading them right now ? What about the people who aren't ?

Pjb, is AM the only scun on your wagon from yourpov ?

Tell me why you are town.

 

[Foxy the Silver Fox]

@Swords: Kantrip asks PJB a question, as if he is expecting a right answer. It seems PJB answered incorrectly, and Kantrip was not pleased, as you can see in the last quote here. It shows that he is displeased and that may be why he voted him, or was leading to voting him. I say lead him to a weak position, by asking him a question and the answer is automatically displeasing to him (which really is only PJB disagreeing with Kantrip about mafia theory, not actually doing anything suspicious), and votes him.

Joker are you okay with me sheeping S&C? If yes, mind if I buddy you?

Wtf kind of questions are those?

We both already know that baseless sheeping and buddying are bad things to do.

Darn shame.

 

[Foxy the Silver Fox]

It's like you didn't try to think about why and just wanted to oppose it because that is "townie"

I did. I saw the start of his paragraph, and confused it as Gheb twisting my words to get what he wants. Yet I did read the rest of the sentence and didn't find anything convincing. PJB seemed to have refuted Gheb's 'PJB was discrediting a power player' by saying that he wouldn't sheep someone only due to their reputation, which is good, because we have to read even power players.

Did you stop to consider that I was being irritated by the possibility of Gheb twisting my words? I got confused and asked Gheb to word his questions in a clearer manner.

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

@Swords: Kantrip asks PJB a question, as if he is expecting a right answer. It seems PJB answered incorrectly, and Kantrip was not pleased, as you can see in the last quote here. It shows that he is displeased and that may be why he voted him, or was leading to voting him. I say lead him to a weak position, by asking him a question and the answer is automatically displeasing to him (which really is only PJB disagreeing with Kantrip about mafia theory, not actually doing anything suspicious), and votes him.

What makes you think that the answer to his question was "Automatically Displeasing"?

 

[Foxy the Silver Fox]

Scylla, earlier you mentioned for me to give results on Kantrip. I can't, as I haven't made much progress on that, but your PJB wagon has gone farther. So now I ask for your results from this, and what you seek to do with it for the rest of the day if you are ready to say.

I also want everyone else who got on the wagon to commit to it now, either saying if they are willing to lynch him, or look at something else. Especially the people who have got on without much reason, like Swords/JTB. If you intend on finishing PJB, then I want to see the reasoning as to why he is the best lynch today.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

That's ran, well pretty it is since that doesn't look like Rake posting.

Nah I read it all and considered.

Pretty sure your scum.

 

[Foxy the Silver Fox]

@Dark Horse: This quote right here:

Darn shame.

It shows that he is thinking "Shame that you didn't answer correctly."

@Red Ryu: You don't sound convinced to me, and I don't believe you. You seem to be taking a lazy approach. Also, can you tell me what you think of the PJB wagon now?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I'm pretty dang convinced with how you've opposed the PJB, reads fake. You're opposing for similar reasons PJB is just your saying it more "wordy" than he is.

If he flips scum or vice verse you will me my center of attention.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

PJB wagon also only has two people I kinda have issues with Swords and JTB, I'm not gonna let JTB pull a coast to end game strait, I don't let anyone do that.

Swords is wierd sincehe never came off to me as someone who would bandwagon like that.