Doc Advanced Tech Frame Data Megathread

[schmooblidon]

Note: Due to the process of making these videos, the first frame is repeated a couple times. For most, this does not matter, but for ones that I wanted to be viewed repeated, I have repeated the frames myself a number of times. There will still be a tiny hiccup when it starts from the beginning, but that's good enough.
Gfy controls at the bottom right of each gfy!

A lot of these techniques are compatible with Mario and a few Luigi. Check the bottom of each section for / with notes on their differences.

Index
Use ctrl-f and type the corresponding hashtag
- Up-b Cancel #1
- Cape Glitch #2
- Up-air Aerial Interrupt Attack #3
- Platform Warp #4
- Perfect Tornado Press #5
- Lemon Grab #6
- Ledgedash #7
- Community Suggestions #8
-- Full Hop Pill Waveland/Aerial

Up-b Cancel #1
[collapse=Up b Cancel]

I made a thread dedicated to Up-b Cancel, check it out here: http://smashboards.com/threads/up-b...a-complete-with-gifs-and-now-oos-data.378468/

- NOT COMPATIBLE: but he has his own up-b trick, up-b walljump https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtLC_cYFKTs

Up-B Walljump frame data:

When against the wall on the frame before you up-b
Straight up (No DI)
Walljump occurs on frame 25 earliest (earlier timings will buffer this)
Window frame 23-29

Diagonal DI (inbetween straight up and straight horizontal)
Walljump occurs on frame 24 earliest (earlier timings will buffer this)
Window 22-29

DI Full Horizontal
Walljump occurs on frame 23 earliest (earlier timings will buffer this)
Window 21-29

When up-b is NOT started against the wall
DI Full Horizontal
ECB must begin touching wall on frame 23 (second to last hitbox frame)
Can then walljump on frames 24-29

More info and gfy's coming soon.
[/collapse]

Ledge Getup Attack Cape Glitch #2
[collapse=Cape Glitch]

Direct link for better control of frames - http://gfycat.com/PettyRemoteAtlanticridleyturtle

When caping certain characters quick ledge getup attack (when their <100%), doc can use his side-b to cape them. On the first frame they are tangible (and certain other frames), being caped will teleport them to the opposite side of the stage, provided there is a flat surface like Battlefield. Doc's Super Sheet comes out on frame 12 and will hit in front on frames 12-14 and behind on frames 14-15. Any of these hitbox frames will work to perform the glitch.

Frames of ledge getup attack that are affected:

Fox/Falco
22

Sheik
22-23-24
25-26 (their hitbox is out and you get hit due to hitbox drag)

ICs
24-25-26
27-28-29 (their hitbox is out and you get hit due to hitbox drag)

Peach
7-8

DK
6-7

Yoshi
16-17-18

jiggs/marth/c.falcon/pikachu/doc/samus/ganon/luigi/mario/y.link/link/zelda/roy/mewtwo/mr.g&w/ness/bowser/pichu/kirby
does not work

Considering you have 30 frames of invincibility when you grab the ledge, it's possible for even ICs to be intangible throughout all their affected frames. Keep this in mind when cheesing with this, especially against Peach and DK.

Although this is far from the best option for dealing with a ledge getup attack, it could leave your opponent confused and staggered, which could give a slight advantage. It is most effective as a crowd pleaser and a great way to style.

Caping IC's and Sheik's ledge getup attack on their hitbox frames has some unique effects. According to Kadano this is because of hitbox drag.

The current frame’s hitbox will always include that of the previous frame, if available, and all the space in between. In this example, the character is teleported to the other side of the stage, so you move a very large distance in just one frame. All of the space you move is covered by the drag area.

Here is a gif of caping IC's getup attack on frame 27

Direct link for better control of frames - http://gfycat.com/VillainousFamiliarElephantbeetle


And an image of caping Sheik's on frame 26

Stages

Final Destination, Battlefield, Fountain of Dreams, Dreamland (even with wind) - All work as expected

Yoshis - Works for Sheik (all frames), Fox, Falco, ICs (only on frame 29), Peach (only on frame 8), DK (only on frame 7), Yoshi (only on frame 18)

below may not be accurate for every possible frame, needs more testing
___________________________________________________________
Pokemon Stadium - Only teleports to the dip on all transformations :/

Onett - The right ledge of the house on the left doesn't really work, they just kinda bob up and down a tiny bit. The left ledge sort of works, they teleport to the other side of the roof.

Hyrule Temple - Top left teleports them a tiny bit to the right, top middle just bob up and down, top right they teleport left as far as the piece of ruin on the ground, bottom left they go a tiny bit to the right, bottom right just bob up and down, bottom right island they teleport to either side.

Great Bay - Both left and right platforms with ledges teleport to either side.

Seems like it needs a completely flat surface to work properly.
____________________________________________________________

- COMPATIBLE: Mario's cape has a smaller hitbox and there is no hitbox on frame 15, other than that it works just the same
[/collapse]

Up-air Aerial Interrupt Attack (AIA) #3

[collapse=Upair AIA]

Direct link for better control of frames - http://gfycat.com/BrilliantColossalBovine

If you Up-air whilst rising through a platform at the right time, the aerial will cancel and you will land on the platform with aerial landing lag (can be l-cancelled). There are 3 frames (at least from a full hop under a lower battlefield platform) where performing an up-air will be cancelled, but only the 3rd frame will allow a hitbox (the first hitbox of upair) to appear before the move is cancelled. You can do this on varying platform heights and from double jumps too.

Hitbox version, fullhop battlefield:

0 -
1 - Jump (jumpsquat)
2 - Jump
3 - Jump
4 - Jump
5 - First frame airborne
.
.
.
17 - Up air (up+a, c-stick up)
18 - | L-cancel window
19 - |
20 - | window end - Hitbox
21 - Cancelled
.
.
.
30 - Wait (can now move/attack)

From a fullhop under a lower battlefield platform, this is the frame you want to input up-a/c-stick up for the hitbox version:

Edge cancelled

Direct link for better control of frames - http://gfycat.com/ImmaterialSeparateFieldmouse

The timing for the upair is exactly the same as the original, the only difference with this is holding a direction to keep your momentum. I performed an up-air once edge cancelled, but you can use any air move you like.

From the ledge
Optimal version

So I discovered the yoshis extra hitbox version isn't technically an AIA, but rather a Platform Warp Aerial (look at the frames, the cancel happens on the 10th double jump frame). But considering it is so similar to any other setup which is an AIA, I'm just gunna leave it here.

Direct link for better control of frames - http://gfycat.com/MasculineUntidyElkhound

0 - Cliffwait
1 - Down (drop)
2 - Down (FastFall)
3 -
4 -
5 - Double jump + Towards stage
6 -
7 -
8 -
9 - (can up-air a frame earlier on yoshis, you get 1 more hitbox frame before it cancels, thus 1 more frame to l-cancel)
10 - Up+A / C-stick Up
11 - | L-cancel window
12 - |
13 - | window end - Hitbox
14 - Cancels - landing lag starts
15 -
.
.
.
23 - Wait (can now move/attack)
.
.
.
30 - Tangible

Easier version

Direct link for better control of frames - http://gfycat.com/PleasantBlindElver

0 - Cliffwait
1 - Down (drop)
2 - Down (fastfall)
3 -
4 -
5 -
6 - Double jump + Towards stage
7 -
8 -
9 -
10 -
11 -
12 -
13 - Up+A / C-stick Up
14 - | L-cancel window
15 - |
16 - | window end - Hitbox
17 - Cancels - landing lag starts
18 -
19 -
.
.
.
26 - Wait (can now move/attack)
27 -
28 -
29 -
30 - Tangible

You can do this without fastfall, dj on frame 15 of fall, up air on frame 9 of dj. The hitbox will be out on intangible frames, but you become tangible during landing lag.

WTF is going on?

The diamonds are called ECB Environment Collision Boxes, they show the true position of the character and are responsible for collisions with the environment and other characters. On the frame before the hitbox, you can see the ECB is short and narrow, and above the platform. On the hitbox frame, you can see the ECB gets taller and moves downward towards the platform (just above it). On the frame after the ECB (just focus on the white outline diamond), gets even taller and moves downward enough to touch the platform. When the ECB moves downward into the ground/platform, it triggers landing.

The Interrupt without the hitbox occurs when the ECB downward movement of frame 4 (first hitbox frame) goes through the platform. This is why the spacing/timing of the hitbox version is so precise, the ECB of frame 4 must not interact with the platform, and the ECB of frame 5 must interact, all whilst rising above it.

All attacks change the characters ECB in some way, this particular attack moves the ECB downward on specific frames. So with correct spacing you can make that downward movement touch a platform as you are rising above it.

Direct link for better control of frames - http://gfycat.com/SimilarVeneratedIndianjackal

Unfortunately Luigi cannot get a hitbox out. Luigi has the exact same ECB pattern, but his hitbox comes out a frame later, and the ECB does not move downward anymore after frame 5. So if you do the same spacing with him, the move would cancel on the first hitbox frame, instead of the second.

You could maybe do it on a rising platform with TAS-like spacing but you could probably say the same thing for most aerials in the game.

When you do Mario and Doc's upair 1 frame or 2 frames earlier then my example, they will cancel it before the hitbox as well, due to frame 4's ECB downward movement.


- COMPATIBLE: It works the same way, but his needs to be done 2 frames quicker.
- Can AI with Up-air but only without a hitbox
[/collapse]

Platform Warp #4
[collapse=Platform Warp]

Direct link for better control of frames - http://gfycat.com/TerribleElegantGartersnake

When dropping from a platform, you can get a very quick No Impact Land if you double jump on a specific frame. Once landed, you have only 1 frame of landing lag..

Here is what the frame looks like:

This is the 17th frame of FALL after dropping from a platform without fastfall.

Easy Perfect Waveland

Direct link for better control of frames - http://gfycat.com/LonelyCreepyHorse

Just airdodge left/right the frame you would normally land.

Shielddrop - repeated first frame possible

Direct link for better control of frames - http://gfycat.com/LankyOrganicCanadagoose

Shielddrop > Glide > Dsmash

Direct link for better control of frames - http://gfycat.com/WeeklyDizzyAnteater

Platform Warp Aerial

Upair

Direct link for better control of frames - http://gfycat.com/BronzeDangerousAntipodesgreenparakeet

Nair

Direct link for better control of frames - http://gfycat.com/MasculineThickBrocketdeer

If you use an aerial as you double jump you can "warp" to the platform just as fast, but of course suffer aerial landing lag (can l-cancel). Only Upair and Nair are useful as they grant hitboxes. Due to the nature of the tech, aerials require specific setups to work when hitting an opponent (explained below in WTF section).

Below is a table for both Upair and Nair determining which frame setups will cancel on the platform when there is an opponent to hit. I have added AI setups as they are very similar and occur at similar frames. Hitbox AIs (AIA) require different L-cancel timing though, please read the key below the tables.

|UP-AIR with Hitlag______________________________________________________________
|JUMP ON PASS FRAME|________________UPAIR ON DOUBLE JUMP FRAME___________________
|__________________|____HITBOX ✓/X____|____PW/AI___|____AUTOCANCEL ✓/X__________
|....... 16 .......|........................ 6 ✓ AI X ..........................
|__________________|_____________________________________________________________
|....... 17 .......|................... 6 ✓ PW X | 7 X AI X ....................
|__________________|_____________________________________________________________
|....... 18 .......|... 6 ✓ PW X (gif above) | 7 X AI X | 8 X AI X | 9 ✓ AI X ..
|__________________|_____________________________________________________________
|....... 19 .......|............. 9 X AI X | 10 X AI X | 11 ✓ AI X ..............
|__________________|_____________________________________________________________
|....... 20 .......|............. 11 X AI X | 12 X AI X | 13 ✓ AI X .............
|__________________|_____________________________________________________________
|....... 21 .......|....... 12 X AI X | 13 X AI X | 14 X AI X | 15 ✓ AI X .......
|__________________|_____________________________________________________________
|....... 22 .......|. 14 X AI X | 15 X AI X | 16 X AI X | 17 X AI ✓ | 18 X AI X |..................|...... 19 ✓ AI X | 20 ✓ AI X | 21 ✓ AI X | 22 ✓ AI X .......
|__________________|_____________________________________________________________
|....... 23 .......|. 16 X AI X | 17 X AI X | 18 X AI X | 19 X AI X | 20 X AI ✓ .
|..................|......................... 21 X AI X .........................
|__________________|_____________________________________________________________
|....... 24 .......|. 20 X AI X | 21 X AI X | 22 X AI X | 23 X AI X | 24 X AI X .
|..................|......................... 25 X AI X .........................
|__________________|_____________________________________________________________


|NAIR with Hitlag________________________________________________________________
|JUMP ON PASS FRAME|________________NAIR ON DOUBLE JUMP FRAME____________________
|__________________|____HITBOX ✓/X____|____PW/AI___|____AUTOCANCEL ✓/X__________
|....... 17 .......|....................... 7 ✓ PW X ...........................
|__________________|_____________________________________________________________
|....... 18 .......|............ 7 ✓ PW X (gif above) | 8 X PW X ................
|__________________|_____________________________________________________________

Hitbox - Is there an active hitbox before the move cancels

PW - Platform Warp (1 frame less landing lag) (must L-cancel on hitbox frame or before)
AI - Aerial Interrupt (can L-cancel during hitlag)

Autocancel - Aerial immediately cancels and you suffer only standard landing lag, 4 frames,

WTF is going on?

On frame 10 of Doc's double jump, his ECB updates to a set position. In most situations this update will not make much difference, specifically when the ECB on frames 1-9 have already adjusted to the extension or near enough. But when you drop through a platform, your ECB gains more downward extension the longer you fall. So when you double jump after dropping from a platform after a certain amount of frames, the frame 10 update will have a considerable effect and shift his ECB downward. With correct timing/spacing, you can position the ECB to be just above the platform on frame 9 then shift into a platform on the frame 10 update and trigger a No-Impact Land.

Direct link for better control of frames - http://gfycat.com/ElectricWhirlwindAlligatorgar

Here I do the same timing, but away from the platform to help show the ECB update.

Direct link for better control of frames - http://gfycat.com/ComplicatedSecondhandAmericanlobster

When you perform an aerial after the double jump, the frame 10 update shift still occurs, and can happen during hitlag. Because the update can happen in hitlag, it makes the tech limited to only a few specific setups. This is because you need to start hitlag when your ECB is above the platform, as your ECB will be frozen until the update. Updating in hitlag also triggers landing, but you will still be stuck on the first frame of the aerial landing animation till hitlag is over. Because of this, you must L-cancel before the update, and mathematically, you suffer 1 frame less lag then an AIA.

- COMPATIBLE: Works exactly the same
- COMPATIBLE: Much easier. go here for details: http://smashboards.com/threads/new-tech.308463/
[/collapse]

Perfect Tornado Press (PTP) #5
[collapse=Perfect Tornado Press]
If you mash B during Doc's down-b Tornado, you can gain considerable height. You can use this for recovering, or even killing an opponent off the top. For each seperate press of B, you must release B for at least 1 frame before another press can be read. A PTP is usually considered to be a tornado that when started from the ground on yoshis, will rise enough to land on the top platform. This can be done with as little as 6 presses, but they must be evenly distributed between frame 1 and frame 38. Even distributing is crucial for this tech, even if you mash 12 times frame perfectly in the first 24 frames, as soon as you stop you will lose momentum and start to drop, not reaching yoshis top platform.

You can hold left or right to move in each direction and it has no effect on height gain. (Holding up or down will not affect it either)

Here is a visual graph to show the differences in tornado heights. I double jump on frame 80 (first frame possible) to show the true height gain for each variant.

I must stress that these presses are spread out evenly between frames 1 and 38. I found it quite interesting to discover that there is no difference in horizontal distance gained with varying amounts of presses, and also that the difference between 12 and 18 presses is so small.

6 presses that would reach yoshis top platform

Direct link for better control of frames - http://gfycat.com/AdvancedPlushGnat

0 -
1 - Down-B
2 -
3 -
4 -
5 - B (must mash first by frame 5)
6 -
7 -
8 -
9 -
10 -
11 - B
12 -
13 -
14 -
15 -
16 -
17 - B
18 -
19 -
20 -
21 -
22 -
23 - B
24 -
25 -
26 -
27 -
28 -
29 - B
30 -
31 -
32 -
33 -
34 -
35 - B
36 -
37 -
38 - Last hitbox (mashing b on this frame or after will do nothing)
39 -
.
.
.
76 -
77 - Can hold Up to buffer a double jump (x/y will not work)
78 -
79 -
80 - Double jump / up-b

Apart from the first mash, the presses can be a little leniant and start a frame or two later or earlier a few times. You can hold each press for as many frames as you need to, as long as there is at least 1 frame before your next press.

18 presses for the maximum height

Direct link for better control of frames - http://gfycat.com/GranularGleefulGrebe

0 -
1 - Down-B
2 -
3 - B
4 -
5 - B
6 -
7 - B
8 -
9 - B
10 -
11 - B
12 -
13 - B
14 -
15 - B
16 -
17 - B
18 -
19 - B
20 -
21 - B
22 -
23 - B
24 -
25 - B
26 -
27 - B
28 -
29 - B
30 -
31 - B
32 -
33 - B
34 -
35 - B
36 -
37 - B
38 - Last hitbox (mashing b on this frame or after will do nothing)
39 -
.
.
.
76 -
77 - Can hold Up to buffer a double jump (x/y will not work)
78 -
79 -
80 - Double jump / up-b

- COMPATIBLE: Works exactly the same.
- Wrote a guide for his PTP (it works a bit differently) - http://smashboards.com/threads/rising-cyclone-ptp-frame-data-guide.384946/
[/collapse]

Lemon Grab (Dash Attack Ledgegrab) #6
[collapse=Dash Attack Ledgegrab]

Direct link for better control of frames - http://gfycat.com/NiftyFelineAdouri

If you dash attack to the edge of a stage, you can quickly turn and fall to the ledge with correct inputs. You can also use this technique on platforms. Kadano says:

That’s an example of making use of Ottotto-retained momentum by doing a smash turn followed by a dash attempt (the dash gets ledge canceled and prevented, though).

Due to yoshis slanted edges, you can grab the ledge 4 frames quicker than any other legal stage.

0 - Running or >4th frame of dash
1 - Dash attack
2 -
.
.
.
35 -
36 - anywhere but back, if back is held on frame 37
37 - | Window for Back
38 - | Window End (must be pressing back) (cancels the dash attack on it's first IASA frame, and starts a Turn)
39 - Hold Back (starts a dash that is instantly edge cancelled into Fall)
40 - (Down to FastFall only on yoshis, can hold from here for other stages though)
41 - Down to FastFall
42 - (Grab ledge on yoshis)
43 -
44 -
45 -
46 - Grab ledge (Cliffcatch)
47 -
.
.
.
50 - (Cliffwait on yoshis)
51 -
52 -
53 -
54 - Cliffwait (can now move/attack)

You could instead bair for a janky gimp.

Direct link for better control of frames - http://gfycat.com/SociableScornfulDunnart

This was on a 60% Falco with NO DI, but even 40% worked (frame perfect). Lower % than that, it will connect if they double jump quickly. If he DIs towards the stage, you could connect an upair but it's probably better to not fall and instead go for a techchase (at high percents you could jc grab before they hit the ground). If he DIs away from the stage, a bair won't connect and it is best to lemon grab to the ledge and punish whatever option he chooses from there.

May test other characters, but it'll likely come down to the floatier the character, the lower the percent.

credits to Mr.Lemon for the discovery

- COMPATIBLE: Works exactly the same
[/collapse]

Ledgedash #7
[collapse=Ledgedash]
Doc has one of the best ledgedashes in the game, which can grant a maximum of 14 actionable intangible frames. But the speed at which you can ledgedash is dependent on ECB manipulation. ECB manipulation is simply the difference of the shape of the ECB when grabbing the ledge after certain aciions.

Setups 1 to 3 will only take effect if you drop and doublejump within 3 frames after CliffWait 0 (if you take longer, you will go into setup 4). Once you doublejump you are locked into the setup's ECB state.

Setup 1: Can wavedash on double jump frame 5. Maximum 14 actionable intangible frames.

UPDATE: This can also be achieved by performing a backwards doublejump sweetspot.

http://gfycat.com/RemarkableOrderlyCoot

After wavedashing back off the stage, I fast fall on the 8th Frame airbourne, so I grab the ledge on Frame 11. Which is required for the setup.

Setup 2: Can wavedash on double jump frame 6. Maximum 13 actionable intangible frames.

Setup 3: Can wavedash on double jump frame 9. Maximum 11 actionable intangible frames.

(note: Looks like setup 3 on the ledge, but the ECB is much smaller then setup 3 once you drop down.)

Setup 4: Can wavedash on double jump frame 6. Maximum 10 actionable intangible frames.

Setup 5: SuperStall. Can wavedash on double jump frame 7. Maximum 12 actionable intangible frames.

[/collapse]
Community Suggestions #8
[collapse=Community Suggestions]
Fullhop Pill Waveland/Aerial

4 frames jumpsquat
52 frames airborne (no fast fall)
can pill on first frame airborne
pill comes out on frame 14
entire move is 43 frames
9 frames lenient for slow startup, waveland and aerials
if you pill on first frame airborne, you can fast fall on the 34th frame or after and still perfect waveland
if you pill on the 8th frame airborne, you can fast fall and waveland on the last 2 frames airborne
you can pill on the 10th frame airborne and still waveland (only on the very last frame, no fast fall)

Here is what pilling on the first frame, fastfalling on the 34th and wavelanding on the last looks like:

Direct link for better control of frames - http://gfycat.com/DisgustingOrneryAmericancrayfish

- COMPATIBLE: Works exactly the same

Chaingrab Info

Magus has compiled a very detailed chart for chaingrabbing on each character at specific percents and DI.

NOTE: All of the percents listed here are the damage AFTER the throw. Since knockback is calculated by the damage after the hit it's more exact this way. To see the percents BEFORE the throw, subtract however much the throw will be doing (generally 4-6 for D-Throw and 6-8 for U-Throw).
'Overall Range' is the range(s) that you are able to regrab them regardless of DI so long as you time the grab correctly vertically, and position it correctly horizontally. The jump out damage used is when you can regrab as long as you are in the general area of horizontal positioning, and may be lower than the 'Best' jump out % which is when the very top of the circular grab boxes are what connects and can reach slightly higher.

'Stand-Grab' and 'JC-Grab' are the ranges you can regrab them off full away and full behind DI while standing still and ranges you can JC regrab them, respectively.

'Jump-Out % Best' is the highest possible damage you can get a regrab off no DI that is impossible to jump out of. Some of the ones with very small hurtboxes you're grabbing such as their leg requires very specific positioning for it to connect at this percent, so it's not always something that'd be possible to do reliably.

'Jump-Out % Wrong' is around the percent you'll be able to get a regrab off of no DI/near no DI that can't be jumped out of if you try to grab in the wrong direction and they come down slightly behind you. Its difference is more apparent when trying to grab small hurtboxes. For example if you normally grab them fine off no DI by grabbing while facing forward and they DI slightly behind you and you don't notice it a grab while facing forward might not be able to catch them until they fall a bit further down and may give them the time to jump out. Walking forwards slightly then turning and grabbing or dash pivot grabbing will help cover the weaker area of coverage in the middle shared by the 2 directions.

'Lag' is how many frames of lag you have after they're released. It's greater for the heavier characters because both the D/U-Throws are affected by their weight and increased weight slows down the throw animation.

D-Throw (6 Damage included)

Stun .Damage
------------
31 ... 0-1 (you can't have 0-1% after the throw but that's what it would be)
32 ... 2-12
33 .. 13-23
34 .. 24-34
35 .. 35-45
36 .. 46-57
37 .. 58-68
38 .. 69-79
39 .. 80-90
40 .. 91-101
41 . 102-112
42 . 113-123
43 . 125-135
etc...

|---------|--------|-------------|----------------|-----------|----|
|Character| Overall| .Stand-Grab | ... JC-Grab ...| Jump-Out %| Lag|
| ........| Ranges.| Front Behind| Front . Behind | Best Wrong| ...|
|---------|--------|-------------|----------------|-----------|----|
|Bowser ..| 13-21 .| .2-21 13-21 | 24-64 . 35-60 .| .42 . 36 .| 25 |
|.........| 35-42 .| ............| ...............| ..........| ...|
|CF ......| 53-153 | .N/A . N/A .| 46-196 .53-196 | 154 .145 .| 23 |
|DK ......| 13-15 .| .N/A .13-15 | 13-51 . 24-30 .| .18 . 13 .| 25 |
|.........| .......| ............| ....... 35-39 .| ..........| ...|
|.........| .......| ............| ....... 46-47..| ..........| ...|
|Falco ...| 33-200+| .6-33 .N/A .| 21-200+ 33-200+| 200+ 200+ | 17 |
|Fox .....| 55-200+| 26-39 .N/A .| 45-200+ 55-200+| 200+ 200+ | 17 |
|Ganon ...| 13-16 .| .N/A . N/A .| .6-53 . 13-16 .| .36 ...7 .| 24 |
|.........| 24-31 .| ............| ....... 24-31 .| ..........| ...|
|.........| 35-36 .| ............| ....... 35-38 .| ..........| ...|
|Link ....| 13-40 .| .N/A . N/A .| .6-64 . 13-63 .| .40 . 25 .| 23 |
|Pichu ...| .0-27 .| .0-41 .N/A .| .0-43 .. 0-43 .| .27 .. 3 .| 13 |
|Pikachu .| .0-27 .| .0-25 .N/A .| .0-42 .. 0-42 .| .27 . 17 .| 17 |
|Roy .....| .0-50 .| .N/A . N/A .| .0-76 .. 0-76 .| .52 . 38 .| 19 |
|Sheik ...| .0-65 .| .0-26 .N/A .| .0-83 .. 0-83 .| .67 . 50 .| 20 |
|Y Link ..| .0-39 .| .0-20 .N/A .| .0-60 .. 0-60 .| .39 . 33 .| 19 |
|Yoshi ...| 13-24 .| .N/A . 2-24 | 13-27 . 24-35 .| .24 . 24 .| 24 |
--------------------------------------------------------------------

U-Throw (8 Damage included)

|---------|--------|-------------|----------------|-----------|----|
|Character| Overall| .Stand-Grab | ... JC-Grab ...| Jump-Out %| Lag|
| ........| Ranges.| Front Behind| Front . Behind | Best Wrong| ...|
|---------|--------|-------------|----------------|-----------|----|
|CF ......| 13-51 .| .N/A . N/A .| 10-66 . 13-66 .| .51 . 49 .| 23 |
|Falco ...| .0-73 .| .0-8 . N/A .| .0-89 .. 0-89 .| .74 . 66 .| 17 |
|Fox .....| .0-65 .| .N/A . N/A .| .0-78 .. 0-79 .| .65 . 60 .| 17 |
--------------------------------------------------------------------

Important stuff about them:

Ganon: Grab BEHIND you for no DI or else they can start jumping out after 7. You grab his leg which is a small target so your horizontal aim with the grab is important. Very slight DI can mess it up if you grab in the wrong direction for it, so walk->turn or dash->pivot grab to be safe.
Link: Grab BEHIND you for no DI or else they can start jumping out after 25.
Pichu: Grab BEHIND you for no DI or else they can start jumping out after 3.
Pikachu: Grab BEHIND you for no DI or else they can start jumping out after 17.
Roy: Grab BEHIND you for no DI or else they can start jumping out after 38, and if you don't walk->turn or dash->pivot grab for no DI they can start jumping out after 46.
Sheik: You grab her leg which is a small target so your horizontal aim with the grab is important. Very slight DI can mess it up if you grab in the wrong direction for it, so walk->turn or dash->pivot grab to be safe.
Y Link: Though it looks like he's mostly behind you, grabbing behind for no DI will miss after 32 so either grab in front or walk->turn or dash->pivot grab to be safe which gets his head. Grab behind you, walk->turn or dash->pivot grab to grab his leg after 34.
Yoshi: Grab a bit early to get his head and not the body which doesn't dip down nearly as low during the tumble.

Falco (U-Throw): Walk->turn or dash->pivot grab for no DI after 60 or so.
Fox (U-Throw): Walk->turn or dash->pivot grab for no DI after 50 or so.

And here's a tiny bit of frame data on low percent fox/falco dthrow chaingrabs.

So you grab a Falco at 27% and downthrow does 6% (it does stale though), if he DI's forward you have a 4 frame window (same as no DI) to start a standing grab, you don't need to move, as falco can't get far enough away. If he DI's slight behind, its a 3 frame window because turn will use 1 frame. If he DI's full behind, well then its a frame perfect [frame 1:turn>2:dash>3:jump>4:grab] and you will grab him the frame before he hits the ground. If you go for any of these and miss and he tech rolls away, he is in the clear.

You grab a fox at 49%, dthrow does 6%. No DI and slight forward DI, and you have a 5 frames window to start a standing grab. Slight behind DI, its 4 frames because of turn. Full forward DI, you have a 2 frame window to dash>jump>grab (you'd think it would be 3, but he actually hits the ground a frame faster when he DI's full forward/behind then none/slight). Full behind DI, frame perfect turn>dash>jump>grab.

Like magus says, these are the lowest percents where all options can be covered. So it makes sense that they are frame perfect. DI behind is the kicker, and according to the chart if falco for whatever reason never DI's behind, you can start it at 6%, which would mean grabbing at 0%, imagine that.

I guess we are just gunna have to live with upthrow at low percent. If they can reach a platform then I would opt for a hard read platform techchase or dthrow>techchase. Maybe start dthrowing at a higher percent where you are comfortable with the leniency.

[/collapse]
Random Tidbits
[collapse=Random Tidbits]
Phantom pills do not produce the normal sfx on impact. A normal pill impact will trigger 2 sfx on the same frame, one of which is identical to a turnip or a shell impact. Phantom pills only trigger this sfx. When Kirby copies doc, his pills only trigger this sfx too.

Doc's uptilt has 2 identical sfx on frame 4 and frame 5. If you listen closely you can hear this double sfx. Compare it to a jab if you still can't hear it.

Mario's cape has a voice sfx unlike doc's. When caping in the air, this voice sfx is triggered on frame 10. When you are grounded, it triggers on frame 12. If you cape just before you hit the ground so that you land on frame 10 (you rise on frame 11), then both the aerial and grounded sfx will trigger and should sound something like "Ee-ee-yah!"

Doc and Mario's rising cape refreshes after being in 1 of 3 states. Landing (empty jump, autocancel aerials), LandingFallSpecial (airdodge, wavedash, up-b) and landing during a cape animation. There are a number of ways to keep a non-rising cape. Landing during an aerial or pill will not refresh it, grabbing the ledge and performing a normal get-up will not trigger it either. You can repeatedly perform non-rising capes by fullhopping to cape and landing during an aerial or pill, or by ledgehopping to cape.

The only reason why Mario can Platform Cancel Nair but Doc cannot, is because Doc's does not do enough damage on frame 1. This results in less hitlag, and is not enough time for the ECB to update whilst above the platform. If Doc's did 12% instead of 10%, it would work.

When fighting against team kirby in classic mode, after copying Doc, the Kirby's Pill will make the launching sound of mario's fireball instead of a pill sound.
[/collapse]

If there are any other techniques you feel would benefit from frame data, feel free to comment

Here's a Haxdash

Direct link for better control of frames - http://gfycat.com/ImpoliteWealthyCoati

 

[HighTen]

This is awesome! Very well done. thank you!

Have you ever seen real applications for the platform warp tech?

 

[schmooblidon]

This is awesome! Very well done. thank you!

Have you ever seen real applications for the platform warp tech?

I've never seen anyone use it in a match, but I only just properly discovered it a few days ago. It seems like it's only real use is mindgames, like faking out. Although the aerials, if connected, can start combos. Hopefully someone will find creative ways to utilize it. maybe it will be you. At the very least, it's kinda stylish.

 

[hectohertz]

great stuff. always glad to see more frame data scientists making good threads for more chars

 

[coilerr]

:O nice man

 

[a rookie]

This is pretty sick. Especially seeing the max height of the tornado.

 

[Max?]

Going to read this later, very excited to see something like his put together for the good doctor.

 

[schmooblidon]

Just updated with a visual graph of varying tornado heights

 

[MudkipUniverse]

Doctor Mario has some sick tech, especially the Lemon-dash. I have some tech for you to put on here, I'll have to upload it to youtube to give you an example.

 

[Kadano]

Nice work, looks really solid!

May I ask you on your routine? Considering how your animations don’t have the develop timer lagging behind by 1 frame, which always happened when I used Dolphin’s “dump frames” feature, I suspect you also capture the frames individually by taking screenshots (F9 in Dolphin), right?

Regarding the encoding step, I can’t see any of the .gif color limitation banding, so I guess you also encode straight to .mp4? What do you use for that?

Oh, and I have one tiny suggestion: I’d rather recommend using fixed camera (toggle with ↑ on the d-pad, move and zoom with ← / → + C-stick) in most cases.

 

[schmooblidon]

Nice work, looks really solid!

May I ask you on your routine? Considering how your animations don’t have the develop timer lagging behind by 1 frame, which always happened when I used Dolphin’s “dump frames” feature, I suspect you also capture the frames individually by taking screenshots (F9 in Dolphin), right?

Regarding the encoding step, I can’t see any of the .gif color limitation banding, so I guess you also encode straight to .mp4? What do you use for that?

Oh, and I have one tiny suggestion: I’d rather recommend using fixed camera (toggle with ↑ on the d-pad, move and zoom with ← / → + C-stick) in most cases.

Oh man that fixed camera is great! Definitely gunna use this for future stuff, might even redo some.

As for my method, you are right, I screenshot each frame. Then I use sony vegas (pro 9.0), create a project the same resolution as the screenshots and 60fps. Set New still image length to 0.017 seconds. Import the screenshots as an Image Sequence, drag them to the timeline. Render as mp4. Upload the mp4 to gfycat.

Only problem with this method is the first frame is repeated a couple times and the last frame disappears, so I normally add another frame at the end. I tried using other programs to remove the repeated frames at the beginning, but they ended up corrupting it, so I just left them.

 

[Kadano]

As for my method, you are right, I screenshot each frame. Then I use sony vegas (pro 9.0), create a project the same resolution as the screenshots and 60fps. Set New still image length to 0.017 seconds. Import the screenshots as an Image Sequence, drag them to the timeline. Render as mp4. Upload the mp4 to gfycat.

I see. I tried using Vegas in the past, but I really didn’t want to deal with its issues after being so happy with Avisynth.

For example, this is the heart of the script I used for this animation:

v1=ImageSource("D:\Bilder\Melee\TAS\Movement\Marth dash shorten\Min length\%003d.png",1,40,fps=60,pixel_type="rgb32").crop(0,0,0,P1.height)
v2=ImageSource("D:\Bilder\Melee\TAS\Movement\Marth dash shorten\Max length\%003d.png",1,40,fps=60,pixel_type="rgb32").crop(0,0,0,P1.height)
v=StackVertical(v1,v2)
v.Subtitle("@Kadano", first_frame=0, last_frame=last, font="Trebuchet MS", size=18, text_color=$00CFFF,align=3)

To save as a .mp4, I open this script with MeGUI with x264 lossless. It’s just 4 clicks until I have the .mp4.

The benefit of doing it this way is that it’s very easy to adapt the script for a new input. I simply exchange 40 for the new amount of frames and alter some values here and there, if necessary.

Now the input display on the right is a bit more complicated; I render all of the stick and button combinations with GIMP and load all of them into the Avisynth script. I cut that part out of the code because it’s ridiculously long.

But still, I think that Avisynth is the best way to do this, so maybe you’ll want to look into it.

 

[schmooblidon]

I see. I tried using Vegas in the past, but I really didn’t want to deal with its issues after being so happy with Avisynth.

For example, this is the heart of the script I used for this animation:

v1=ImageSource("D:\Bilder\Melee\TAS\Movement\Marth dash shorten\Min length\%003d.png",1,40,fps=60,pixel_type="rgb32").crop(0,0,0,P1.height)
v2=ImageSource("D:\Bilder\Melee\TAS\Movement\Marth dash shorten\Max length\%003d.png",1,40,fps=60,pixel_type="rgb32").crop(0,0,0,P1.height)
v=StackVertical(v1,v2)
v.Subtitle("@Kadano", first_frame=0, last_frame=last, font="Trebuchet MS", size=18, text_color=$00CFFF,align=3)

To save as a .mp4, I open this script with MeGUI with x264 lossless. It’s just 4 clicks until I have the .mp4.

The benefit of doing it this way is that it’s very easy to adapt the script for a new input. I simply exchange 40 for the new amount of frames and alter some values here and there, if necessary.

Now the input display on the right is a bit more complicated; I render all of the stick and button combinations with GIMP and load all of them into the Avisynth script. I cut that part out of the code because it’s ridiculously long.

But still, I think that Avisynth is the best way to do this, so maybe you’ll want to look into it.

Thanks dude, gunna try this for my next gif.

 

[Mr.Lemon]

Nice work! Super easy to understand everything. Keep it up

 

[1MachGO]

First off, nice work man. Good to see that Doc is getting some research love.

And if you got the time, could you investigate the credibility of Doc's dthrow chaingrab against Fox and Falco?

Here is a Magus post where he goes in depth on Doc's chaingrabs vs. all characters (you may just want to throw this up there regardless)

Spoiler

They're really not. For estimates they are pretty close, though since I didn't look too much into them there's some stuff like the heaviest characters having a small opening to jump if they DI to the side at very low damage and can only be caught with a JC grab (usually behind since it adds a turning frame to your grab). It pokes some holes in the ranges of Bowser and DK in particular, and to a lesser extent Ganon and requires Link/Yoshi to have a small amount of damage to start if they DI a certain way on the 1st throw. It also didn't mention some important things like if you need to grab backwards and such.

Anyway, that list is old.

NOTE: All of the percents listed here are the damage AFTER the throw. Since knockback is calculated by the damage after the hit it's more exact this way. To see the percents BEFORE the throw, subtract however much the throw will be doing (generally 4-6 for D-Throw and 6-8 for U-Throw).

'Overall Range' is the range(s) that you are able to regrab them regardless of DI so long as you time the grab correctly vertically, and position it correctly horizontally. The jump out damage used is when you can regrab as long as you are in the general area of horizontal positioning, and may be lower than the 'Best' jump out % which is when the very top of the circular grab boxes are what connects and can reach slightly higher.

'Stand-Grab' and 'JC-Grab' are the ranges you can regrab them off full away and full behind DI while standing still and ranges you can JC regrab them, respectively.

'Jump-Out % Best' is the highest possible damage you can get a regrab off no DI that is impossible to jump out of. Some of the ones with very small hurtboxes you're grabbing such as their leg requires very specific positioning for it to connect at this percent, so it's not always something that'd be possible to do reliably.

'Jump-Out % Wrong' is around the percent you'll be able to get a regrab off of no DI/near no DI that can't be jumped out of if you try to grab in the wrong direction and they come down slightly behind you. Its difference is more apparent when trying to grab small hurtboxes. For example if you normally grab them fine off no DI by grabbing while facing forward and they DI slightly behind you and you don't notice it a grab while facing forward might not be able to catch them until they fall a bit further down and may give them the time to jump out. Walking forwards slightly then turning and grabbing or dash pivot grabbing will help cover the weaker area of coverage in the middle shared by the 2 directions.

'Lag' is how many frames of lag you have after they're released. It's greater for the heavier characters because both the D/U-Throws are affected by their weight and increased weight slows down the throw animation.


D-Throw (6 Damage included)

Stun .Damage
------------
31 ... 0-1 (you can't have 0-1% after the throw but that's what it would be)
32 ... 2-12
33 .. 13-23
34 .. 24-34
35 .. 35-45
36 .. 46-57
37 .. 58-68
38 .. 69-79
39 .. 80-90
40 .. 91-101
41 . 102-112
42 . 113-123
43 . 125-135
etc...

|---------|--------|-------------|----------------|-----------|----|
|Character| Overall| .Stand-Grab | ... JC-Grab ...| Jump-Out %| Lag|
| ........| Ranges.| Front Behind| Front . Behind | Best Wrong| ...|
|---------|--------|-------------|----------------|-----------|----|
|Bowser ..| 13-21 .| .2-21 13-21 | 24-64 . 35-60 .| .42 . 36 .| 25 |
|.........| 35-42 .| ............| ...............| ..........| ...|
|CF ......| 53-153 | .N/A . N/A .| 46-196 .53-196 | 154 .145 .| 23 |
|DK ......| 13-15 .| .N/A .13-15 | 13-51 . 24-30 .| .18 . 13 .| 25 |
|.........| .......| ............| ....... 35-39 .| ..........| ...|
|.........| .......| ............| ....... 46-47..| ..........| ...|
|Falco ...| 33-200+| .6-33 .N/A .| 21-200+ 33-200+| 200+ 200+ | 17 |
|Fox .....| 55-200+| 26-39 .N/A .| 45-200+ 55-200+| 200+ 200+ | 17 |
|Ganon ...| 13-16 .| .N/A . N/A .| .6-53 . 13-16 .| .36 ...7 .| 24 |
|.........| 24-31 .| ............| ....... 24-31 .| ..........| ...|
|.........| 35-36 .| ............| ....... 35-38 .| ..........| ...|
|Link ....| 13-40 .| .N/A . N/A .| .6-64 . 13-63 .| .40 . 25 .| 23 |
|Pichu ...| .0-27 .| .0-41 .N/A .| .0-43 .. 0-43 .| .27 .. 3 .| 13 |
|Pikachu .| .0-27 .| .0-25 .N/A .| .0-42 .. 0-42 .| .27 . 17 .| 17 |
|Roy .....| .0-50 .| .N/A . N/A .| .0-76 .. 0-76 .| .52 . 38 .| 19 |
|Sheik ...| .0-65 .| .0-26 .N/A .| .0-83 .. 0-83 .| .67 . 50 .| 20 |
|Y Link ..| .0-39 .| .0-20 .N/A .| .0-60 .. 0-60 .| .39 . 33 .| 19 |
|Yoshi ...| 13-24 .| .N/A . 2-24 | 13-27 . 24-35 .| .24 . 24 .| 24 |
--------------------------------------------------------------------

U-Throw (8 Damage included)

|---------|--------|-------------|----------------|-----------|----|
|Character| Overall| .Stand-Grab | ... JC-Grab ...| Jump-Out %| Lag|
| ........| Ranges.| Front Behind| Front . Behind | Best Wrong| ...|
|---------|--------|-------------|----------------|-----------|----|
|CF ......| 13-51 .| .N/A . N/A .| 10-66 . 13-66 .| .51 . 49 .| 23 |
|Falco ...| .0-73 .| .0-8 . N/A .| .0-89 .. 0-89 .| .74 . 66 .| 17 |
|Fox .....| .0-65 .| .N/A . N/A .| .0-78 .. 0-79 .| .65 . 60 .| 17 |
--------------------------------------------------------------------


Important stuff about them:

Ganon: Grab BEHIND you for no DI or else they can start jumping out after 7. You grab his leg which is a small target so your horizontal aim with the grab is important. Very slight DI can mess it up if you grab in the wrong direction for it, so walk->turn or dash->pivot grab to be safe.
Link: Grab BEHIND you for no DI or else they can start jumping out after 25.
Pichu: Grab BEHIND you for no DI or else they can start jumping out after 3.
Pikachu: Grab BEHIND you for no DI or else they can start jumping out after 17.
Roy: Grab BEHIND you for no DI or else they can start jumping out after 38, and if you don't walk->turn or dash->pivot grab for no DI they can start jumping out after 46.
Sheik: You grab her leg which is a small target so your horizontal aim with the grab is important. Very slight DI can mess it up if you grab in the wrong direction for it, so walk->turn or dash->pivot grab to be safe.
Y Link: Though it looks like he's mostly behind you, grabbing behind for no DI will miss after 32 so either grab in front or walk->turn or dash->pivot grab to be safe which gets his head. Grab behind you, walk->turn or dash->pivot grab to grab his leg after 34.
Yoshi: Grab a bit early to get his head and not the body which doesn't dip down nearly as low during the tumble.

Falco (U-Throw): Walk->turn or dash->pivot grab for no DI after 60 or so.
Fox (U-Throw): Walk->turn or dash->pivot grab for no DI after 50 or so.

In it, Magus states that Dthrow can chaingrab Fox 55% to death and Falco from 33% to death... but is hard DI left/right really humanly possible to react to at such low percents? Any idea how many frames of leniency Doc is working with here?

I mean, if its legit, Docs has ridiculous potential vs. Fox/Falco

 

[schmooblidon]

First off, nice work man. Good to see that Doc is getting some research love.

And if you got the time, could you investigate the credibility of Doc's dthrow chaingrab against Fox and Falco?

Here is a Magus post where he goes in depth on Doc's chaingrabs vs. all characters (you may just want to throw this up there regardless)


In it, Magus states that Dthrow can chaingrab Fox 55% to death and Falco from 33% to death... but is hard DI left/right really humanly possible to react to at such low percents? Any idea how many frames of leniency Doc is working with here?

I mean, if its legit, Docs has ridiculous potential vs. Fox/Falco

Thanks for showing me this, I'll add it to the thread. It is legit, but... hard.

So you grab a Falco at 27% and downthrow does 6% (it does stale though), if he DI's forward you have a 4 frame window (same as no DI) to start a standing grab, you don't need to move, as falco can't get far enough away. If he DI's slight behind, its a 3 frame window because turn will use 1 frame. If he DI's full behind, well then its a frame perfect [frame 1:turn>2:dash>3:jump>4:grab] and you will grab him the frame before he hits the ground. If you go for any of these and miss and he tech rolls away, he is in the clear.

You grab a fox at 49%, dthrow does 6%. No DI and slight forward DI, and you have a 5 frames window to start a standing grab. Slight behind DI, its 4 frames because of turn. Full forward DI, you have a 2 frame window to dash>jump>grab (you'd think it would be 3, but he actually hits the ground a frame faster when he DI's full forward/behind then none/slight). Full behind DI, frame perfect turn>dash>jump>grab.

Like magus says, these are the lowest percents where all options can be covered. So it makes sense that they are frame perfect. DI behind is the kicker, and according to the chart if falco for whatever reason never DI's behind, you can start it at 6%, which would mean grabbing at 0%, imagine that.

I guess we are just gunna have to live with upthrow at low percent. If they can reach a platform then I would opt for a hard read platform techchase or dthrow>techchase. Maybe start dthrowing at a higher percent where you are comfortable with the leniency.

 

[1MachGO]

Yeah, it seems like the most optimal fd punish would be to uthrow chain grab until the highest % possible and then switch to dthrow chain grabs until they DI bad or get to uthrow fair percents.

What's especially crazy about the dthrow chain grab though is that it's possible on non fd stages.

 

[MudkipUniverse]

Doc chaingrabs are sick. The Ganon players never chaingrab, and that is one of the things that could innovate the ganon meta.

 

[Sir Bubbles]

Thank you so much for this. This is something I really need if I need to improve on my Doc.

 

[GSM_Dren]

Awesome compilation! I'll be sure to add some of these techs (Lemon grab for sure!) to my games sometime.

 

[Sashimi]

Awesome, I love threads like this.

One thing though: are you sure the Uair technique you found should be called an aerial interrupt? From what I've read, aerial interrupt refers to autocancelling an aerial while rising by abusing ECB changes. The fact that yours has a hitbox and doesn't autocancel would lead me to believe it deserves its own name. Just a thought.

Keep up the good work!

 

[schmooblidon]

Awesome, I love threads like this.

One thing though: are you sure the Uair technique you found should be called an aerial interrupt? From what I've read, aerial interrupt refers to autocancelling an aerial while rising by abusing ECB changes. The fact that yours has a hitbox and doesn't autocancel would lead me to believe it deserves its own name. Just a thought.

Keep up the good work!

Yeah I had a bit of trouble distinguishing what it was. Smashmac called it a platform cancel on the old tech tutorial video, which is even more confusing. Aerial Interrupt seemed to be the closest description. But I agree, it needs it's own name. I'll update it when I can think of a good name, any suggestions?

I found the same tech with marths bair. Unfortunately I don't think you can get a hitbox out, but there are only autocancel frames at the end of the move. There are most likely more moves in the game that work.

 

[schmooblidon]

Updated Aerial Interrupt and Platform Warp sections with an explanation of what's happening. I think Aerial Interrupt Attack is a good name for the tech as it is very much to do with ECB like an AI, so differentiating further wouldn't help anybody. I have to say the tech is really blowing my mind, all the pieces needed for this to occur line up perfectly for this one character with this one move, i guess 2 chars but clone and stuff.

 

[Sashimi]

I think that's a fair name (I really had no idea what a good name for it would be), makes sense.

Looking forward to more awesome stuff!

 

[Superw0rri0]

I leave the forums and smash for 5 months and this is what happens?! Lol this is some good stuff man.

 

[schmooblidon]

Dear god this game is too damn deep! I have made another discovery that has blown my mind once again.

So yeah remember this,

It's not an Aerial Interrupt Attack..... it's an Aerial Interrupt Attack Platform Warp! Platform Warp Aerial! Allow me to explain.

Doc uses the special property of his double jump where on frame 10 of double jump his ECB moves downward which allows him to do the quick No-Impact Land named a Platform Warp. The yoshis gif actually uses that ECB movement on frame 10 of double jump to connect the ECB to the ground, which happens on the 3rd hitbox frame. The ECB movement of the first 2 hitbox frames gets it close to the ground, then the platform warp tech kicks in the next frame and the ECB connects.

 

[Superw0rri0]

I'm not really seeing the warping... do you think you can slow it down a bit?

 

[schmooblidon]

Do you mean the yoshis thing I just mentioned or the platform warp tech in general?

 

[MudkipUniverse]

Roy has a Lemon grab, I tested with a few characters.

 

[schmooblidon]

No no no, i think I've just confused everyone lol. A platform warp is kind of it's own thing. But firstly it is a very fast No-Impact Land.

Almost every character will have ways to setup a No-Impact Land mostly due to their bodies going horizontally (like backflipping and stuff) which makes their ECB wobble up and down.

All characters double jumps have ECB patterns that tend to match roughly their body at each given frame. The marios bros have a very odd ECB pattern though. Where on frame 10, it dips downward even though they are in pretty much the same position as the previous frame. This happens before they start spinning around and thus is very quick compared to the rest of the cast.

This frame 10 dip, oddly enough, happens even when you perform certain aerials.

An aerial interrupt is when the ECB pattern of the aerial makes you connect with a platform, rather then the platform warp which is to do with the double jump ECB pattern.

I guess calling that yoshis gif an Aerial Interrupt Attack Platform Warp is kind of confusing :/ Really it should just be a Platform Warp Aerial, because it is the platform warp tech that actually cancels the move.


Sidenote: Just discovered Pichu can Aerial Interrupt Attack with nair and Pikachu with dair.

 

[tauKhan]

@ schmooblidon I have a questions regarding platform warps. Does the dj ECBs update during hitlag, like I believe they do after dropping, since platform cancelled aerials are a thing? What I'm after is can you dj aerial your opponent in such a way that you hit him when your ECB is on top of a platform, and let the hitlag stall you to frame 10 where your ECB would extend to the platform and make you land, and is it possible to get bigger window for the warp that way.

 

[schmooblidon]

@ schmooblidon I have a questions regarding platform warps. Does the dj ECBs update during hitlag, like I believe they do after dropping, since platform cancelled aerials are a thing? What I'm after is can you dj aerial your opponent in such a way that you hit him when your ECB is on top of a platform, and let the hitlag stall you to frame 10 where your ECB would extend to the platform and make you land, and is it possible to get bigger window for the warp that way.

It does, and it totally screws it all up :/ Thankyou for bringing this to my attention. In a way there is a bigger window, but it's kinda just trading one frame perfect input for another. I created a table for both nair and upair showing which setups cancel when there is an opponent to hit.

I have also added a new section for ledgedash. It's not as straight forward as you'd think, damn ECBs.

 

[Kadano]

I don’t think introducing a new term (Platform Warp) is justified. The actions you have described as such can sufficiently be referred to as no-impact landing / aerial interrupt.

What’s different about these here is just that their ECB manipulation stems not from innate bone alignments, but from previous actions’ ECB extensions and the ECB’s drastic change upon its update (which seems to happen every 9-13 frames or so).
That’s pretty much the same thing that happens during platform cancels, so I think the best way to go is to say that a NIL / AI / PC / whatever needs ECB manipulation to work in the intended way.

How exactly ECB updates work and why they usually happen on the 11th frame of an animation, but sometimes on the 9th and other times on the 13th has not been explored yet, I think. I guess @Magus420 is the only one who has the skills to shed light on that.

Edit: Also, no-impact lag is used only for 1 frame landings. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJG-tvT86WU
During aerials, you can only impact land and AttackAir land (L-cancelable). The only attacks I know that no-impact landing is possible from are spacies’ lasers and Samus’ missiles.

 

[schmooblidon]

Hmm I dunno, then I just be renaming it to something like Double Jump ECB Update which is a lot less catchy. It's such a specific setup and very distinguishable from his other NILs, I don't know if it will really matter.

Not sure what the edit is for, I already mention you suffer aerial landing lag on the relevant section.

 

[Kadano]

I want to apologize for my last post. It was uncalled for and not helpful.

So you use “platform warp” whenever the ECB shift is caused by an ECB update (and not exclusively by the animation’s innate ECB shifting)?

Additionally, things like this would fall under that definition as well. Falcon landed on the frame of ECB update, but he needed his back aerial so that his ECB had sufficient downward extension (if he simply jumped, his body would be more horizontal, thus having less downward ECB extension).

So, would you call that a “platform warp aerial interrupt”, then? Again, ECB update alone is not enough to trigger the land. Both it and the aerial are needed.
If not, how else would you describe it with the “platform warp” term?

My main goal is to have non-confusing universal terminology. In my posts, I have always referred to this phenomenon of characters landing sooner due to their ECBs updating from the previous action’s less downward extension to the new animation’s more downward extension on a frame where this shift triggers a land as “ECB manipulation”.
Now I’m totally fine with using the term “platform warp” instead to not have people be confused by two terms that are used slightly differently but essentially describe the same thing, but I want to know exactly what you understand as a platform warp so that I don‘t use your term incorrectly.

All characters double jumps have ECB patterns that tend to match roughly their body at each given frame. The marios bros have a very odd ECB pattern though. Where on frame 10, it dips downward even though they are in pretty much the same position as the previous frame. This happens before they start spinning around and thus is very quick compared to the rest of the cast.

This frame 10 dip, oddly enough, happens even when you perform certain aerials.

This ECB shift is not bound to frame 10 of their midair jump. It’s caused by the ECB update that happens on that frame in most cases. (From what you wrote in the OP, I understand that you know this already. Not directed to you specifically, more intended as an addition to your post I quoted.)
If you, however, short hop from the platform below, and during the falling part of your short hop start your mid-air jump (at roughly the same position you’d do so after dropping from the platform above you instead), your ECB would not shift downward at frame 10 as much (because the ECB on frames 1-9 had already adjusted to its aerial extension), thus you could not land on a platform.

So what I’m trying to express in short is that these platform warp lands are not bound to certain frames of mid-air jumps, but rather to the previous and new ECB states and whether the new one has considerably more downward extension than the previous.
“Previous“ in your no-impact land platform warp animation would be the ECB that is carried over from Pass 16 (at that frame, his ECB has extremely little downward extension). “New” in that animation would be the one that is started at frame 10 of your mid-air jump that causes you to land immediately.

 

[schmooblidon]

To me Platform Warp means: using doc/mario's doublejump frame 10 ECB update to land on a platform, when doublejumping on either Pass frame 17 or 18 after dropping from a platform.

This ECB shift is not bound to frame 10 of their midair jump. It’s caused by the ECB update that happens on that frame in most cases. (From what you wrote in the OP, I understand that you know this already. Not directed to you specifically, more intended as an addition to your post I quoted.)
If you, however, short hop from the platform below, and during the falling part of your short hop start your mid-air jump (at roughly the same position you’d do so after dropping from the platform above you instead), your ECB would not shift downward at frame 10 as much (because the ECB on frames 1-9 had already adjusted to its aerial extension), thus you could not land on a platform.

So what I’m trying to express in short is that these platform warp lands are not bound to certain frames of mid-air jumps, but rather to the previous and new ECB states and whether the new one has considerably more downward extension than the previous.
“Previous“ in your no-impact land platform warp animation would be the ECB that is carried over from Pass 16 (at that frame, his ECB has extremely little downward extension). “New” in that animation would be the one that is started at frame 10 of your mid-air jump that causes you to land immediately.

Very good point, and I should definitely mention this in the guide. I believe this also helps my argument, as it shows how unique and specific the setup must be to abuse the tech.

Giving the tech it's own name helps simplify it for players who do not know the hidden parts of the game, but players that do or wish to learn can read the explanation section and discover exactly what's happening. Considering the tech is useless in any other situation (except maybe some weird setups from the ledge), I don't see the harm.

I'm gunna start rewriting the section as I've missed a lot of stuff out. Do you mind if I quote you in the guide? You do a much better job of explaining the details.

 

[Kadano]

To me Platform Warp means: using doc/mario's doublejump frame 10 ECB update to land on a platform, when doublejumping on either Pass frame 17 or 18 after dropping from a platform.

I see, that makes sense considering how intense the effect is for them compared to other characters. In case a similar fast execution for different characters is discovered, it would be appropriate to call that a platform warp as well, right?

Giving the tech it's own name helps simplify it for players who do not know the hidden parts of the game, but players that do or wish to learn can read the explanation section and discover exactly what's happening. Considering the tech is useless in any other situation (except maybe some weird setups from the ledge), I don't see the harm.

I see, that definitely makes sense.

I'm gunna start rewriting the section as I've missed a lot of stuff out. Do you mind if I quote you in the guide? You do a much better job of explaining the details.

I do not mind at all, please go on. And thank you.

 

[Hairysun]

Ledge Walk
(didn't know what to call it)

I found out the other day that if you dash to the ledge and begin your turnaround animation close enough to it, you not only turn around much more quickly than normal, but also there is a small window where if you SH or jump while still holding back, you remain facing the ledge and preform a max momentum jump (sorta like a moon walk).

You can also cancel the momentum to stay close to the ledge by holding forward.
_________________________


Lastly, you can double jump out of SH -> u-air as well as waveland out of SH -> b-air.

I found it's easiest to pull this off using the left stick to SH and c-stick to use the aerial. Getting used to that is a pain so good luck to y'all who see this.

 

[MudkipUniverse]

Ledge Walk
(didn't know what to call it)

I found out the other day that if you dash to the ledge and begin your turnaround animation close enough to it, you not only turn around much more quickly than normal, but also there is a small window where if you SH or jump while still holding back, you remain facing the ledge and preform a max momentum jump (sorta like a moon walk).

You can also cancel the momentum to stay close to the ledge by holding forward.
_________________________


Lastly, you can double jump out of SH -> u-air as well as waveland out of SH -> b-air.

I found it's easiest to pull this off using the left stick to SH and c-stick to use the aerial. Getting used to that is a pain so good luck to y'all who see this.

I knew about the turning around more quickly part, but for some reason I never tried to jump.

There is another turn-around momentum technique with Dr. Mario, I need to make a video showcasing it.

 

[schmooblidon]

K did some testing. Turnrun is 22 frames long. Jumping from frame 1 - 19 will leave you facing the ledge. Frame 20+ will let you jump facing towards the stage. If you jump early with too much momentum towards the ledge, you can slide off during jumpsquat.

Good find. I also thinking jumping with your back to the ledge is a decent edgeguarding technique.