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[Discussion] 2.0 Why is Link considered much better in Smash-4 I believe he's worse than in Brawl.

N.T.A.O ChangeOfHeart 死の剣

不自然な不道徳な中空デミ神〜
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So, I spectated the previous version or actually someone linked me there and so I was curious as to what made that individual want to forcefully want me to view that content. Laughable stuff to pity personally (no names involved). http://smashboards.com/threads/disc...-ssb4-i-think-hes-worse.375722/#post-17880365

I want to continue to spectate your answers as to why he's better in 4.

"He can recover" yes, well, guess what? Every other character can recover as well and it's not because his recovery is better, no. It's because Edge-guarding/Edge stalling/ Edge hogging in Smash-4 is therefore, gone, proof, R.I.P (Rest.In.Peace). To me and to some that agree with me that's still not enough information to accept he's more buffed up in Smash4.

To the kids that want to 'flame' like seriously mods, just give them their award which is an infraction of immaturity. If they still wont learn to 'quit' everyone else, just don't respond back to them to create a Flame war please. I STRONGLY RECOMMEND THAT YOU IGNORE THEM.

As for the rest, I hope many will provide answers that we all seek towards 4 and such. Hopefully everything will adjust into a peaceful environment. Thanks. Have a nice day.
 
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Xuan Wu

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It is almost unanimously agreed Link is overall buffed, compared to his SSBB counterpart. The buffs he gained from the transition are numerous, making him one of, if not the most buffed character in SSB4.

+ Improved ground and aerial mobility in both movement and attacks
+ Spin Attack recovery covers greater altitude and is no longer as momentum-dependent
+ New D-air meteor smash
+ Dash Attack hits like a smash attack
+ Longer reaching Z-air

And these are only a fraction of his buffs. There are several others not listed above, which you can find in great detail in the SSB4 Link forum. Do you personally think he is better in SSBB?

^-^
 
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Thor

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So, I spectated the previous version or actually someone linked me there and so I was curious as to what made that individual want to forcefully want me to view that content. Laughable stuff to pity personally (no names involved). http://smashboards.com/threads/disc...-ssb4-i-think-hes-worse.375722/#post-17880365

I want to continue to spectate your answers as to why he's better in 4.

"He can recover" yes, well, guess what? Every other character can recover as well and it's not because his recovery is better, no. It's because Edge-guarding/Edge stalling/ Edge hogging in Smash-4 is therefore, gone, proof, R.I.P (Rest.In.Peace). To me and to some that agree with me that's still not enough information to accept he's more buffed up in Smash4.

To the kids that want to 'flame' like seriously mods, just give them their award which is an infraction of immaturity. If they still wont learn to 'quit' everyone else, just don't respond back to them to create a Flame war please. I STRONGLY RECOMMEND THAT YOU IGNORE THEM.

As for the rest, I hope many will provide answers that we all seek towards 4 and such. Hopefully everything will adjust into a peaceful environment. Thanks. Have a nice day.
I can't tell what your position on his status is (buffed, nerfed, or moved sideways). But he's better unless you are unable to accurately analyze a character (that is, Brawl Link would be worse than Smash 4 Link in Smash 4, and Smash 4 Link would be an improvement over Brawl Link in Brawl). The only things nerfed [that I can think of right now] are the off-the-top kill power on dair (and maybe uair), global nerfs to jab cancels/DACUS removal, and you can't SHAD hookshot (or clawshot or whatever, BUT you can just SH hookshot without much lag). I don't think anything was really slowed [besides dash attack, which has changed in function - slight nerf in my opinion only because that thing is hard to land], but some stuff was sped up (ftilt), dair autocancels out of a fullhop + double jump (timing is tight), his recovery is unquestionably better (that's ignoring the ledge mechanic changes entirely, it's just better in terms of distance and options for extending it), his edgeguaring [which still exists, if you can't do it, it's because you need to learn] improved with dair (run off DJ dair and you can up+B afterwards) and I think he can SHFF nair offstage and get back too, his fair and uair have less landing lag, bomb fuses improve recovery options, if we allow for custom specials he gets the old rang back (and while the wind hitbox has a few uses, the rang hitting people covers you somewhat for grabs and riskier options, which keeps Link safer in general), spin attack on the ground is stronger,... the list goes on.
 

N.T.A.O ChangeOfHeart 死の剣

不自然な不道徳な中空デミ神〜
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It is almost unanimously agreed Link is overall buffed, compared to his SSBB counterpart. The buffs he gained from the transition are numerous, making him one of, if not the most buffed character in SSB4.

+ Improved ground and aerial mobility in both movement and attacks
+ Spin Attack recovery covers greater altitude and is no longer as momentum-dependent
+ New D-air meteor smash
+ Dash Attack hits like a smash attack
+ Longer reaching Z-air

And these are only a fraction of his buffs. There are several others not listed above, which you can find in great detail in the SSB4 Link forum. Do you personally think he is better in SSBB?

^-^
Yes, his attacks and specials are far none to the best, the ONLY bane is his recovery. Speed was never a problem for me, I would Bomb slide to be fast or faster than some characters. Well, hate to write this, but I don't agree he's better in Smash-4, I do however agree he LOOKS better because the game is water down easier than Brawl and that's a fact.

His dash attack kills yes and so does Link's Dash attack in Brawl but a 50% difference, meh.

His Dair yes can spike but it's Meteor canceled so, meh once more.

His Spin attack kills earlier as well, but not that much really only like 30 or 40% really, meh once more.

He can recover yes, but everyone else can as well, their recovery hasn't improved anything but instead disabling the 'Edge-guarding' mechanic.

Zair goes farther, really? I guess, but it is not that useful really. I'd rather have a shorter Zair that will benefit me rather than a longer Zair with a water down version known as 'Smash-4' that will barely or wont benefit me whatsoever.

Either-way, I hope you're doing work in Smash-4, Zhu. Have a great New Years man.
 
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Yong Dekonk

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Yes, his attacks and specials are far none to the best, the ONLY bane is his recovery. Speed was never a problem for me, I would Bomb slide to be fast or faster than some characters. Well, hate to write this, but I don't agree he's better in Smash-4, I do however agree he LOOKS better because the game is water down easier than Brawl and that's a fact.

His dash attack kills yes and so does Link's Dash attack in Brawl but a 50% difference, meh.

His Dair yes can spike but it's Meteor canceled so, meh once more.

His Spin attack kills earlier as well, but not that much really only like 30 or 40% really, meh once more.

He can recover yes, but everyone else can as well, their recovery hasn't improved anything but instead disabling the 'Edge-guarding' mechanic.

Zair goes farther, really? I guess, but it is not that useful really. I'd rather have a shorter Zair that will benefit me rather than a longer Zair with a water down version known as 'Smash-4' that will barely or wont benefit me whatsoever.

Either-way, I hope you're doing work in Smash-4, Zhu. Have a great New Years man.
It really comes down to his increased mobility in my opinion. Play him in Sm4sh for a while then try going back to brawl and you'll notice a big difference. Also, you're wrong about Sm4sh being easier than brawl. The game is only as difficult as your opponent makes it for you. Also with an increase in overall viable characters for tournament play you have to think harder about which character to use.
 

N.T.A.O ChangeOfHeart 死の剣

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It really comes down to his increased mobility in my opinion. Play him in Sm4sh for a while then try going back to brawl and you'll notice a big difference. Also, you're wrong about Sm4sh being easier than brawl. The game is only as difficult as your opponent makes it for you. Also with an increase in overall viable characters for tournament play you have to think harder about which character to use.
Um, I will just write, no.

And um, the game has no tier list so you don't need to think, thanks.
 
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Radical Larry

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If you want a large-scale amount of his newly amazing attributes, here's some that were not listed:

-His dodge/roll is much, much faster and easier to get out of.
-Clawshot can grab at a bit of a further distance and in air now.
-Z-air as an attack is better with longer reach and the SH Z-Drop on Bombs.
-Bombs deal 8% damage at certain locations of the opponent.
-Bombs will block any large projectile, such as Charge Shot and Aura Sphere. They will literally absorb all the damage and give Link a better defensive option.
-The back portion of his D-Smash serves as a semi-spike, giving him better KO opportunities and setups for edge-guarding.
-Both his Dash attack and F-Tilt can edge-guard properly.
-U-Tilt links up more properly.
-N-air's late hits cause the opponent to stumble just long enough to have Link roll and perform an F-Smash on the opponent. It's really amazing to use N-air > Roll > F-Smash at high damages, since the opponent will actually be far enough for the tip to hit and KO the opponent.
-Dash attack has some wonky angles when it hits. Goes vertical, horizontal, diagonally, diagonally backwards and even semi-spikes on the top portion at times.

As for Customs:
-Power Bow gives Link much, much more offense at the expense of charging up. It deals far more damage and knockback than a regular Arrow, and deals heavy shield damage and isn't safe on block due to shield stun.
-Boomerang, due to being very angular and dealing more damage at the expense of knockback, is very useful for setting up combos and yielding pressure to the opponent.
-Meteor Bombs...I think that's self-explanatory. Throw them to an opponent off the edge, you know what happens.
-Shocking Spin, despite having poor recovery (Link still has the tether anyways), is great for offensive purposes on the stage. It deals heavier knockback and damage, as well as gives opponents shock at the expense of recovery and more end lag. Also, if used in the air, it causes a semi-spike.
-Whirling Leap gives Link that recovery he oh-so needed, despite having almost no damage. It's actually rather safe to use since it can get Link far and high, so he can zone the opponent out and get a better strategy. It will be very, very hard to actually KO Link in the air if he manages to use it.

You cannot deny that the objects in bold are well, big evidence of Link having far better options. If his bombs can actually absorb a fully charged Charge Shot or Aura Sphere, that means he's got his defensive game down pat. And with the power bow, it's a cheap alternative to a cheap attack, and the Meteor Bombs, when someone uses them right, pretty much would make Link a top tier character in Smash 4.

His mobility, defensive and offensive options, everything about him is far better in Smash 4 than in Brawl. Even his aerial speed and falling speed have been buffed to where he doesn't fall as fast, and actually goes faster in air. Everything about him was buffed (save for a few minor nerfs that don't affect him much).

Your arguments go out of luck, man.
 

Yong Dekonk

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Um, I will just write, no.

And um, the game has no tier list so you don't need to think, thanks.
Actually the presence of tier lists (not the absence of them) is what causes people to "not think." After reading through your posts you have provided no evidence that Link is better in brawl. Literally you haven't even tried to show how he was better in brawl nor have you made a case for how brawl was a harder game... All you've done is whine about ledge hogging.
 

Radical Larry

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The only evidences of Link being better in some areas in Brawl would be:

-More powerful attacks.
-Link can DACUS.

...that's it. Those are literally the only things that are better for him in Brawl than in 4. Seriously, there's nothing else I could find that made Link better in Brawl than in this game. So, @ N.T.A.O ChangeOfHeart 死の剣 N.T.A.O ChangeOfHeart 死の剣 , I think your arguments are wholly invalid, and that all evidence shows that Link is superior in Smash 4 than Brawl.
 

N.T.A.O ChangeOfHeart 死の剣

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The only evidences of Link being better in some areas in Brawl would be:

-More powerful attacks.
-Link can DACUS.

...that's it. Those are literally the only things that are better for him in Brawl than in 4. Seriously, there's nothing else I could find that made Link better in Brawl than in this game. So, @ N.T.A.O ChangeOfHeart 死の剣 N.T.A.O ChangeOfHeart 死の剣 , I think your arguments are wholly invalid, and that all evidence shows that Link is superior in Smash 4 than Brawl.
Oh lord, just stop, he looks better because everything is NERF-ED. So, thanks.

Btw, laughed at the wall of techs, why? Because you fail to realize nothing was changed only the mechanics was nerf-ed and surprisingly accelerated faster than Brawl which is the only true fact that can debate over Brawl. Everything else is just theory and as well through proof all characters are nerf-ed in Smash-4 oh and that little thing where you can edge-guard, no biggie it was useless in every game and didn't contribute anything, I know.

@
Yong Dekonk

Already played the game for a week, I did not enjoy myself so I, forfeited the game.

Lol, you actually think Smash-4 needs serious knowledge to do stuff, sigh, the edge guarding mechanic is already gone so 65% of 'need to be careful or I will be edge-guarded and lose a stock' is gone you can now do stuff that would never work in all the other games and get away with it. I know I'd make a name for myself in that game, but it honestly is boring. The game seriously has no establishment to legalize any fundamental thinking heck, advanced techniques are gone, this is going to be a waste of a whole six to eight years of bs. Nintendo should of been smarter and just made a Melee for Pete sake there everyone will be happy. But of course Nintendo fails and this is why they're suffering in debt and not making enough financial income. Soon enough, Nintendo will be out of business, imo.
 
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Yong Dekonk

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Oh lord, just stop, he looks better because everything is NERF-ED. So, thanks.

Btw, laughed at the wall of techs, why? Because you fail to realize nothing was changed only the mechanics was nerf-ed and surprisingly accelerated faster than Brawl which is the only true fact that can debate over Brawl. Everything else is just theory and as well through proof all characters are nerf-ed in Smash-4 oh and that little thing where you can edge-guard, no biggie it was useless in every game and didn't contribute anything, I know.

@
Yong Dekonk

Already played the game for a week, I did not enjoy myself so I, forfeited the game.

Lol, you actually think Smash-4 needs serious knowledge to do stuff, sigh, the edge guarding mechanic is already gone so 65% of 'need to be careful or I will be edge-guarded and lose a stock' is gone you can now do stuff that would never work in all the other games and get away with it. I know I'd make a name for myself in that game, but it honestly is boring. The game seriously has no establishment to legalize any fundamental thinking heck, advanced techniques are gone, this is going to be a waste of a whole six to eight years of bs. Nintendo should of been smarter and just made a Melee for Pete sake there everyone will be happy. But of course Nintendo fails and this is why they're suffering in debt and not making enough financial income. Soon enough, Nintendo will be out of business, imo.
Aaaaaaand the truth comes out. So you're just another person that is butthurt over changes that were made to smash. Yes, a lot of things have changed. I'm not going to argue over which iteration of smash is the best because it's a purely subjective debate. Many AT's have been removed but these were never intended in the first place. Now you have to get good at smash without exploiting quirks in game mechanics. Boohoo get over it. Sorry you suck at the new smash.
 

JayTheUnseen

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For some reason,I prefer Link in Brawl.True he was sluggish there,jarring from Melee.
Even if he was technically buffed in Smash 4,I still prefer Brawl,I don't know why.He feels more sluggish for some reason.
I think it may be because his speed is *roughly* identical to Brawl,but most everyone else is faster.
 

Radical Larry

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Oh lord, just stop, he looks better because everything is NERF-ED. So, thanks.

Btw, laughed at the wall of techs, why? Because you fail to realize nothing was changed only the mechanics was nerf-ed and surprisingly accelerated faster than Brawl which is the only true fact that can debate over Brawl. Everything else is just theory and as well through proof all characters are nerf-ed in Smash-4 oh and that little thing where you can edge-guard, no biggie it was useless in every game and didn't contribute anything, I know.

@
Yong Dekonk

Already played the game for a week, I did not enjoy myself so I, forfeited the game.

Lol, you actually think Smash-4 needs serious knowledge to do stuff, sigh, the edge guarding mechanic is already gone so 65% of 'need to be careful or I will be edge-guarded and lose a stock' is gone you can now do stuff that would never work in all the other games and get away with it. I know I'd make a name for myself in that game, but it honestly is boring. The game seriously has no establishment to legalize any fundamental thinking heck, advanced techniques are gone, this is going to be a waste of a whole six to eight years of bs. Nintendo should of been smarter and just made a Melee for Pete sake there everyone will be happy. But of course Nintendo fails and this is why they're suffering in debt and not making enough financial income. Soon enough, Nintendo will be out of business, imo.
Just stop, you can't prove a point here. Everything you call a "theory" about Link in Smash Bros. for Wii U and 3DS is a fact; Link is superior in that game, we gave you lists of what he's been buffed in, he has had almost no nerfs.

And quick question, when will we get a moderator to shut this thread down?
 

N.T.A.O ChangeOfHeart 死の剣

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For some reason,I prefer Link in Brawl.True he was sluggish there,jarring from Melee.
Even if he was technically buffed in Smash 4,I still prefer Brawl,I don't know why.He feels more sluggish for some reason.
I think it may be because his speed is *roughly* identical to Brawl,but most everyone else is faster.
I agree man, and it's because he's fluid more and his attacks feel manly compared to nerf-ed garbage that anyone new will defend, it's like it's new candy to them and they've never seen the other candies but this one only, lmao sigh it begins.

I've already played both and I have my 'evidence' Smash-4 Link feels like a Grandpa is controlled by the way he moves and stuff. Brawl, well yes he's slower but not that whole lot, weirdly he feels so much much better and 'fluid'.
 
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Radical Larry

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Both games are 60 FPS, there's no way to tell if he's more fluid or not.
General consensus, majority rule states that Link has indeed been buffed, and even without the new physics, he would still be more buffed than Brawl. His Dash attack can send you flying like a Smash Attack now, and at any direction no less, his U-Smash is far more powerful, his D-Smash has better combo ability and semi-spikes, his neutral aerial combos and KOs better, his rolls are far faster, his specials are also better, his speed is faster, actually, and his air game is superior...

Everything about Link, except for some areas in power, was increased to become more superior. I even feel he surpasses Melee's Link.
 

Xuan Wu

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Opinions are more than welcome, COH, but, in all honesty, I don't even think this is a debatable topic. :(

It has now been over two months since the first version of Smash 4 was released and Link, in that installment, has garnered nothing less than near universal praise. Is that not enough indication that Link has changed for the better? Also, although it is less reliable, the character currently ranks among the top ten in the game by EventHubs community; I find this especially noteworthy because SSBB Link, if I recall correctly, was never viewed as a contender for even the top half of the cast during the entirely of SSBB's life span.

I think that a character, like pre-1.0.4 Ike, would yield more interesting discussion when comparing to his SSBB incarnation. Why? Unlike Link, he was met with much criticism concerning his nerfs, specifically to his killing potential and trademark Jab. Despite this, some players, including reputable SSBB Ike main San, believes the character is overall buffed. Ever since the 1.0.4 update, initial perceptions of Ike have changed, with practically everyone now believing he eclipses his SSBB self. Of course, there are a few I have seen that are still discontent with Ike's loss of power on some attacks. Thankfully, several of his other buffed attributes greatly compensate for this.

With that out the way, I respect your unwavering dedication of SSBB Link, and SSBB in general. You are a talented smasher, COH, no doubt; however, the way you present yourself on these boards has the tendency to incite flame wars. I saw what happened at the SSB4 Link forum a while back; the community over there still brand you as a laughing stock. This saddens me as I have always looked up to you as one of the nicest people here. Why not establish new friendships as well as imparting your talents to help advance the metagames of BOTH incarnations of Link?

And thanks. Hope you enjoy your New Year as well.

^-^
 
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Radical Larry

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Opinions are more than welcome, COH, but, in all honesty, I don't even think this is a debatable topic. :(

It has now been over two months since the first version of Smash 4 was released and Link, in that installment, has garnered nothing less than near universal praise. Is that not enough indication that Link has changed for the better? Also, although it is less reliable, the character currently ranks among the top ten in the game by EventHubs community; I find this especially noteworthy because SSBB Link, if I recall correctly, was never viewed as a contender for even the top half of the cast during the entirely of SSBB's life span.

I think that a character, like pre-1.0.4 Ike, would yield more interesting discussion when comparing to his SSBB incarnation. Why? Unlike Link, he was met with much criticism concerning his nerfs, specifically to his killing potential and trademark Jab. Despite this, some players, including reputable SSBB Ike main San, believes the character is overall buffed. Ever since the 1.0.4 update, initial perceptions of Ike have changed, with practically everyone now believing he eclipses his SSBB self. Of course, there are a few I have seen that are still discontent with Ike's loss of power on some attacks. Thankfully, several of his other buffed attributes greatly compensate for this.

With that out the way, I respect your unwavering dedication of SSBB Link, and SSBB in general. You are a talented smasher, COH, no doubt; however, the way you present yourself on these boards has the tendency to incite flame wars. I saw what happened at the SSB4 Link forum a while back; the community over there still brand you as a laughing stock. This saddens me as I have always looked up to you as one of the nicest people here. Why not establish new friendships as well as imparting your talents to help advance the metagames of BOTH incarnations of Link?

And thanks. Hope you enjoy your New Year as well.

^-^
Guy's got a point. Wouldn't have said it better myself if I tried.
 
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Thor

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Yes, his attacks and specials are far none to the best, the ONLY bane is his recovery. Speed was never a problem for me, I would Bomb slide to be fast or faster than some characters. Well, hate to write this, but I don't agree he's better in Smash-4, I do however agree he LOOKS better because the game is water down easier than Brawl and that's a fact.

His dash attack kills yes and so does Link's Dash attack in Brawl but a 50% difference, meh.

His Dair yes can spike but it's Meteor canceled so, meh once more.

His Spin attack kills earlier as well, but not that much really only like 30 or 40% really, meh once more.

He can recover yes, but everyone else can as well, their recovery hasn't improved anything but instead disabling the 'Edge-guarding' mechanic.

Zair goes farther, really? I guess, but it is not that useful really. I'd rather have a shorter Zair that will benefit me rather than a longer Zair with a water down version known as 'Smash-4' that will barely or wont benefit me whatsoever.

Either-way, I hope you're doing work in Smash-4, Zhu. Have a great New Years man.
-Dash attack doesn't kill in Brawl. The difference is really like 50+%. Which is 100% across 2 stocks. Which is like a whole stock in and of itself. And it's easier to set up into than I gave credit for.

- There is no meteor cancelling (and you can't meteor cancel a spike anyway). Dair's meteor offstage WILL kill anyone at ~60% (it should kill almost everyone at 40%, but Villager has balloons).

- 30-40% is a HUGE difference - AND this difference makes spin attack safe on hit at much lower percents.

- a) Little Mac can't recover b) "Edge-guarding" was not disabled, as "edgeguarding" is the act of attempting to prevent the opponent from reaching the edge/stage, which is definitively in the game. "Ledge-hogging" was indeed removed, but edgeguarding is still very much doable (and if you can't, then it's because you're bad at it - I know people who want to compete but consider themselves incompetent, and they can edgeguard just fine).

- Zair is freaking amazing in this game. I don't know what more you could want from it. Sure you can't SHAD it but no one else can either and Link's being longer makes it easier to fight Samus (among others).

And by the way, NONE of the smash games are easy - people like to pretend they are but you fight a good opponent like (in 64) Isai, (in Melee) Mango/PPMD/M2K/Hbox/Armada/Leffen/Axe/Hax, (in Brawl) Nairo/Zero/FOW/DEHF/Tyrant, (in Smash 4) Nairo [again], FOW [again], Zero [again], and you'll get wrecked. Then these people fight each other and have close sets and it shows the game can be very, VERY difficult - it just depends on your opponent being good.

Oh lord, just stop, he looks better because everything is NERF-ED. So, thanks.

Btw, laughed at the wall of techs, why? Because you fail to realize nothing was changed only the mechanics was nerf-ed and surprisingly accelerated faster than Brawl which is the only true fact that can debate over Brawl. Everything else is just theory and as well through proof all characters are nerf-ed in Smash-4 oh and that little thing where you can edge-guard, no biggie it was useless in every game and didn't contribute anything, I know.

@
Yong Dekonk

Already played the game for a week, I did not enjoy myself so I, forfeited the game.

Lol, you actually think Smash-4 needs serious knowledge to do stuff, sigh, the edge guarding mechanic is already gone so 65% of 'need to be careful or I will be edge-guarded and lose a stock' is gone you can now do stuff that would never work in all the other games and get away with it. I know I'd make a name for myself in that game, but it honestly is boring. The game seriously has no establishment to legalize any fundamental thinking heck, advanced techniques are gone, this is going to be a waste of a whole six to eight years of bs. Nintendo should of been smarter and just made a Melee for Pete sake there everyone will be happy. But of course Nintendo fails and this is why they're suffering in debt and not making enough financial income. Soon enough, Nintendo will be out of business, imo.
Where the **** do you get off? First things first, short-hopping, SHADs via auto-cancelled aerials, perfect pivots (yes those are in every game but whatever), foxtrotting, DDing, pivot tilts, and tons of other stuff ALL count as ATs. Second, you'd make a name for yourself? I'd love to see you try when you can't even accurately analyze a character AND state that "you'll just say no" because you have ZERO POINT ZERO ability to use ANY SEMBLANCE OF LOGIC to refute the points presented. Fundamental thinking? Fight FOW's Ness in Brawl OR Smash 4 - you'll get BODIED by a person who understands how to think in these games.

And Smash 4 + Pokémon are the reasons Nintendo isn't bankrupt already. And remaking Melee is a horrible idea for a variety of reasons I won't go into. I think you're annoyed that most characters move faster than Link now and salty that you have to do more than hit R on the ledge to take a stock.

Link is slow? Yeah, he's always been slow. Pick another character or learn to deal with it.

I could compile a chart that shows damage percents on all Link's moves and compare move properties and the resulting effects on Link's play to prove he's been net buffed, but that's a waste of my time when you won't even attempt to put together an argument beyond "I'm right because I say I am" so I'm not going to waste my time.

As for the poster above me wondering if he's better than Melee Link... I think time will tell... he'll probably have fewer disgustingly difficult MUs, but I don't know how much the semi-spike on up+b (less effective in lower fall speeds) and Link's stronger dair (sans meteor though), slightly different uair animation (with less range, but ability to hit grounded people, so that's also really sideways), and possibly better nair [must check] justify huge lag (unless we auto-L-cancel him), a slower ftilt, weaker dsmash (or if they're the same, backside trajectory that doesn't set up edgeguards), and an fsmash that doesn't link or have the ability to tipper for a super early KO.

Mod should seriously lock this thread though. People can say Link is worse in Smash 4 than he is in Brawl, but people can also claim Brawl 'dorf is better than Melee 'Dorf because of autocancelled dairs, a safe and strong usmash that can't be SDI'd, and Flame Choke - those people are wrong, no matter how many random buffs they cite, because of critical flaws that hinder Ganondorf far more than any buffs he received. The case is the same here.
 
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N.T.A.O ChangeOfHeart 死の剣

不自然な不道徳な中空デミ神〜
Joined
Mar 29, 2012
Messages
3,123
-Dash attack doesn't kill in Brawl. The difference is really like 50+%. Which is 100% across 2 stocks. Which is like a whole stock in and of itself. And it's easier to set up into than I gave credit for.

- There is no meteor cancelling (and you can't meteor cancel a spike anyway). Dair's meteor offstage WILL kill anyone at ~60% (it should kill almost everyone at 40%, but Villager has balloons).

- 30-40% is a HUGE difference - AND this difference makes spin attack safe on hit at much lower percents.

- a) Little Mac can't recover b) "Edge-guarding" was not disabled, as "edgeguarding" is the act of attempting to prevent the opponent from reaching the edge/stage, which is definitively in the game. "Ledge-hogging" was indeed removed, but edgeguarding is still very much doable (and if you can't, then it's because you're bad at it - I know people who want to compete but consider themselves incompetent, and they can edgeguard just fine).

- Zair is freaking amazing in this game. I don't know what more you could want from it. Sure you can't SHAD it but no one else can either and Link's being longer makes it easier to fight Samus (among others).

And by the way, NONE of the smash games are easy - people like to pretend they are but you fight a good opponent like (in 64) Isai, (in Melee) Mango/PPMD/M2K/Hbox/Armada/Leffen/Axe/Hax, (in Brawl) Nairo/Zero/FOW/DEHF/Tyrant, (in Smash 4) Nairo [again], FOW [again], Zero [again], and you'll get wrecked. Then these people fight each other and have close sets and it shows the game can be very, VERY difficult - it just depends on your opponent being good.



Where the **** do you get off? First things first, short-hopping, SHADs via auto-cancelled aerials, perfect pivots (yes those are in every game but whatever), foxtrotting, DDing, pivot tilts, and tons of other stuff ALL count as ATs. Second, you'd make a name for yourself? I'd love to see you try when you can't even accurately analyze a character AND state that "you'll just say no" because you have ZERO POINT ZERO ability to use ANY SEMBLANCE OF LOGIC to refute the points presented. Fundamental thinking? Fight FOW's Ness in Brawl OR Smash 4 - you'll get BODIED by a person who understands how to think in these games.

And Smash 4 + Pokémon are the reasons Nintendo isn't bankrupt already. And remaking Melee is a horrible idea for a variety of reasons I won't go into. I think you're annoyed that most characters move faster than Link now and salty that you have to do more than hit R on the ledge to take a stock.

Link is slow? Yeah, he's always been slow. Pick another character or learn to deal with it.

I could compile a chart that shows damage percents on all Link's moves and compare move properties and the resulting effects on Link's play to prove he's been net buffed, but that's a waste of my time when you won't even attempt to put together an argument beyond "I'm right because I say I am" so I'm not going to waste my time.

As for the poster above me wondering if he's better than Melee Link... I think time will tell... he'll probably have fewer disgustingly difficult MUs, but I don't know how much the semi-spike on up+b (less effective in lower fall speeds) and Link's stronger dair (sans meteor though), slightly different uair animation (with less range, but ability to hit grounded people, so that's also really sideways), and possibly better nair [must check] justify huge lag (unless we auto-L-cancel him), a slower ftilt, weaker dsmash (or if they're the same, backside trajectory that doesn't set up edgeguards), and an fsmash that doesn't link or have the ability to tipper for a super early KO.

Mod should seriously lock this thread though. People can say Link is worse in Smash 4 than he is in Brawl, but people can also claim Brawl 'dorf is better than Melee 'Dorf because of autocancelled dairs, a safe and strong usmash that can't be SDI'd, and Flame Choke - those people are wrong, no matter how many random buffs they cite, because of critical flaws that hinder Ganondorf far more than any buffs he received. The case is the same here.
"And Smash 4 + Pokémon are the reasons Nintendo isn't bankrupt already. And remaking Melee is a horrible idea for a variety of reasons I won't go into. I think you're annoyed that most characters move faster than Link now and salty that you have to do more than hit R on the ledge to take a stock."

Just leave already, you're being the salty person, this shouldn't be locked. So, I will get wrecked by Axe, Hax, Zero, Nario? And you know how? If it was in Melee I'm sure I would but in Smash-4 lol I doubt it. Hax almost lost to a Aib player 3WX aka Wes and I know if he played Hax in Melee he'd get four stocked without real effort. And I follow Melee and was born into competitive in Melee only, Brawl was the game that made me play Online and become more competitive with humans. I bet I'd beat you if you Brawled me compared to Smash-4 which takes no real effort since all thinking is gone really. I've fought people like that and won in Brawl, your point? Don't judge dude and leave already before the mods think it's a troll experiment, which is not. And yes the argument will never stop, but all know Smash-4 was nerf-ed and if you wont see that, then okay. Thanks.
 
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Thor

Smash Champion
Joined
Sep 26, 2013
Messages
2,009
Location
UIUC [school year]. MN [summer]
"And Smash 4 + Pokémon are the reasons Nintendo isn't bankrupt already. And remaking Melee is a horrible idea for a variety of reasons I won't go into. I think you're annoyed that most characters move faster than Link now and salty that you have to do more than hit R on the ledge to take a stock."

Just leave already, you're being the salty person, this shouldn't be locked. So, I will get wrecked by Axe, Hax, Zero, Nario? And you know how? If it was in Melee I'm sure I would but in Smash-4 lol I doubt it. Hax almost lost to a Aib player 3WX aka Wes and I know if he played Hax in Melee he'd get four stocked without real effort. And I follow Melee and was born into competitive in Melee only, Brawl was the game that made me play Online and become more competitive with humans. I bet I'd beat you if you Brawled me compared to Smash-4 which takes no real effort since all thinking is gone really. I've fought people like that and won in Brawl, your point? Don't judge dude and leave already before the mods think it's a troll experiment, which is not. And yes the argument will never stop, but all know Smash-4 was nerf-ed and if you wont see that, then okay. Thanks.
LOL first you should accurately read what I say me - I specifically identified the players that are skilled in each game - I said in any given Smash game you should fight X, not that you should fight Isai in Brawl or fight Hax in Smash 4.

And I know you'd get beaten badly because the best in the world will easily destroy well over 99.9% of the people on this site in their best game without trying. The fact that I can't find you doing anything notable on here suggests you are part of that 99.9% (and for the record, I am too, but I don't claim I would be a notable and top level player except I refuse to try). If you have any video evidence to the contrary, or just footage of you in general, by all means, provide it here.

I think there's a timezone difference but if you tell me timezone and availability I'll play you in Brawl on Wi-Fi - I have the SD card and stuff. Super rusty but I'll do it [I have to find my friendcode as well to post it here, but I'll do that if you agree]. We can work out a time that works for both of us and...well.... SETTLE IT IN SMASH!

If you think that thinking isn't required in Smash 4, I'm sorry to break it to you, but you don't understand how Smash works. And I'll give you my FC and we can fight in Smash 4 as well (I only have the 3DS version on me right now, but I can try to set up my Wii U Wi-Fi and see if I think I can be proficient without a gamecube controller).

I love that you call me salty when I'm not salty about any of the games in the slightest. The only things that irritates me is people who insist something, assert everyone else is wrong, and refuse to provide evidence for their points. To rectify this, please, for me, re-lay out every single nerf Link received in moving from Brawl to Smash 4. I would like your comprehensive list of changes that negatively affected Link - what the change is and how it negatively affected him. I can spend the time to compile my counterargument, but at this point I can't even tell what you think the problems are.

[The other thing that irritates me is people who insist that Nintendo should go backwards as a sequel - MAYBE they could include a single-use-per-airtime (can be used on ground whenever), 10 (or more or less) frames of lag when landing air-/ground-dash button replacing one of the shield triggers if people want a wavedash, but the current airdodge is much better for player interaction with juggling and setting people up for more damage, and L-canceling is an arbitrary technical barrier - there aren't noticeable cons to just removing it and halving landing lag [certainly when shieldstun is low, I'd argue the same thing for when shieldstun is higher]. And fallspeeds don't need to go back to meteoric speed, plus they shouldn't make some downward sending moves so much better than others without some real logic [and Melee Falcon's dair vs Melee Ganondorf's dair vs Melee Falco's dair really doesn't make sense when you think about it], and a plethora of other things.]
 
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N.T.A.O ChangeOfHeart 死の剣

不自然な不道徳な中空デミ神〜
Joined
Mar 29, 2012
Messages
3,123
Just stop responding to me now, I know what you're doing, I'm not going to get into a pathetic waste of my time war with you. If you want 'evidence' then go watch every Link combo video in 2008 and compare it to this one atm. Heck, even your prized Izaw chose Sheik to be his main not Link, though he can't drop him or his fans will be devastated. If you want to continue this conversation, then respond back with purpose. If you respond back to me like how the other kids responded in the previous thread, then you'll be ignored.

Debate to the whole audience (if there's any) not just, me. Thanks.
 

Thor

Smash Champion
Joined
Sep 26, 2013
Messages
2,009
Location
UIUC [school year]. MN [summer]
Just stop responding to me now, I know what you're doing, I'm not going to get into a pathetic waste of my time war with you. If you want 'evidence' then go watch every Link combo video in 2008 and compare it to this one atm. Heck, even your prized Izaw chose Sheik to be his main not Link, though he can't drop him or his fans will be devastated. If you want to continue this conversation, then respond back with purpose. If you respond back to me like how the other kids responded in the previous thread, then you'll be ignored.

Debate to the whole audience (if there's any) not just, me. Thanks.
Well, you said you'd beat me in Brawl. I'll give you my friendcode if you'll set up a time for us to fight (I'm open most of this week, central US timezone [but just give me your timezone by googling it or whatever and your available times and I'll do the adjustment work]) and we can play a best of 5 Brawl set.

I propose the following rules:

Stage list:
-Battlefield
-Final Destination
-Smashville
-Lylat Cruise
-Yoshi's Island

Counterpicks:
-Pokémon Stadium
-Halberd
-Castle Siege

- 8 minutes, 3 stocks, all items set to OFF and NONE. Infinite dimensional cape glitch is banned, and there is a ledge grab limit of 50 for all characters. No stage bans.

You strike a stage, I strike 2 stages, you strike a stage, and we'll play game 1 on the remaining starter stage. Loser picks stage, winner declares character choice, loser then chooses character and we play games 2-5 (however many it takes) repeating after each game the stage choice and character declarations until one of us wins 3 games. That is the winner of the set.

If there is anything you don't like about these rules, I can gladly change any part of this. But you stated you would beat me in Brawl - I am demanding one of two things: A) a set with me OR B) a retraction of this claim.

What time works for you, and what timezone are you in? [Though since you are online right now, I can fight very soon if you want - gotta eat lunch first though.] We can name our strikes and character choices by setting up a private message and telling each other through that.

As for your post, there's nothing to debate when you don't make an argument XD. You can assert something all you like, but assertions do not constitute arguments - I can counterassert Link is better, but me saying "Link is better" is not an argument - assessing his moveset and making claims about the relative strengths of the Links in Brawl and Smash 4 [and then making a claim backed up by those assessments] IS an argument.

Also I never said anything about Izaw - precious Izaw??? If you mean he plays Smash 4 Sheik, that's probably because she's currently the second-best character in the game and because he played Brawl Sheik as well, when Smash 4 Sheik is essentially a net buffed version of Brawl Sheik (Bouncing Fish is SOOOOOO good, and Sheik doesn't get CG'd as hard anymore, among other things).

EDIT: Heck, I'll give you my FC right now. It's 4986-6645-6355 for Brawl.
 
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N.T.A.O ChangeOfHeart 死の剣

不自然な不道徳な中空デミ神〜
Joined
Mar 29, 2012
Messages
3,123
Well, you said you'd beat me in Brawl. I'll give you my friendcode if you'll set up a time for us to fight (I'm open most of this week, central US timezone [but just give me your timezone by googling it or whatever and your available times and I'll do the adjustment work]) and we can play a best of 5 Brawl set.

I propose the following rules:

Stage list:
-Battlefield
-Final Destination
-Smashville
-Lylat Cruise
-Yoshi's Island

Counterpicks:
-Pokémon Stadium
-Halberd
-Castle Siege

- 8 minutes, 3 stocks, all items set to OFF and NONE. Infinite dimensional cape glitch is banned, and there is a ledge grab limit of 50 for all characters. No stage bans.

You strike a stage, I strike 2 stages, you strike a stage, and we'll play game 1 on the remaining starter stage. Loser picks stage, winner declares character choice, loser then chooses character and we play games 2-5 (however many it takes) repeating after each game the stage choice and character declarations until one of us wins 3 games. That is the winner of the set.

If there is anything you don't like about these rules, I can gladly change any part of this. But you stated you would beat me in Brawl - I am demanding one of two things: A) a set with me OR B) a retraction of this claim.

What time works for you, and what timezone are you in? [Though since you are online right now, I can fight very soon if you want - gotta eat lunch first though.] We can name our strikes and character choices by setting up a private message and telling each other through that.

As for your post, there's nothing to debate when you don't make an argument XD. You can assert something all you like, but assertions do not constitute arguments - I can counterassert Link is better, but me saying "Link is better" is not an argument - assessing his moveset and making claims about the relative strengths of the Links in Brawl and Smash 4 [and then making a claim backed up by those assessments] IS an argument.

Also I never said anything about Izaw - precious Izaw??? If you mean he plays Smash 4 Sheik, that's probably because she's currently the second-best character in the game and because he played Brawl Sheik as well, when Smash 4 Sheik is essentially a net buffed version of Brawl Sheik (Bouncing Fish is SOOOOOO good, and Sheik doesn't get CG'd as hard anymore, among other things).

EDIT: Heck, I'll give you my FC right now. It's 4986-6645-6355 for Brawl.
See, that's where I stop here and ignore you, why? Because you want to start something, the reason I wrote that was to get a reaction from you since clearly I will get bopped in a Smash-4 game by those players you claim as. Though I do not care what you want to think. This will be my final response because I know the moderators are watching (Scabe). If you want to Brawl me, then Brawl me, but change it to FT5, no. Why? Because this was started by a war and that wont happen.

I know you would've never Brawled but to prove a pathetic argument theory. This isn't the first time I've seen you view my blogs. The other one was "Anyone still play Brawl" and no one responded but two people showed up, G-something and you, Thor. I left for about a few minutes and returned and you were still there. I waited to see if you would post your FC since that means you still play Brawl, but you left. Now, you want to show me you can play Brawl when you're called out.

First thing you need to know about me, I don't act like that to people but when people like you want to act that then you actually annoy me. If you want to Brawl me, then Brawl me.

If you don't, then don't. Don't respond back to me because moderators will see this turned in some Soap Opera instead of a discussion or heck just leave the thread open, even if no one wants to write something that involves this particular topic. Thanks.

@ Xuan Wu Xuan Wu

Quite a good statement, but please understand this, wasn't Smash-4 nerf-ed, or not? Wasn't Nintendo patching everything from left to right, yes, no, what? I just watched Kirin-blaze the best Link in the tourney scene, he played Link the same exact way but he lost to Chibo compared to him winning in Brawl every-time.

That didn't really prove a point, okay, how about this, why do you think people like me write or say he's better in Brawl, well?

I'll write to you why, he not like a Grandpa, Grandpa? Yes, a Grandpa, he doesn't feel weaker and he doesn't, heck all his ATs are gone in Smash-4 and his dair isn't even that strong plus his Dair can meteor canceled.

He can barely link anything but throw Bombs and Gail boomerang (no Arrow cancel btw).

Face it, he looks better because he can't get gimped or edge guarded which honestly in Brawl it wasn't a big deal for me and still isn't. His attacks are too strong they kill in the 120% and 89% with the bomb to dair.

But he has a few improvements so here it is, he can kill with Dash attack, he can now spike, longer Zair, rapid attacks A,A, and A.

Here's what will happen, time will show what happens but at the moment it will just be argued over as kids. Honestly, I opened this thread up again because people like you don't have the authority to decide, nag all you want, it's not going to change.

Link's success in Brawl is as well better but of course I will give the new Link time and for God almighty don't compare it to Melee or 64, it's not even gist worthy. If only some Melee and Brawl people would help me but of course not, N.T.A.O.
 
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Thor

Smash Champion
Joined
Sep 26, 2013
Messages
2,009
Location
UIUC [school year]. MN [summer]
See, that's where I stop here and ignore you, why? Because you want to start something, the reason I wrote that was to get a reaction from you since clearly I will get bopped in a Smash-4 game by those players you claim as. Though I do not care what you want to think. This will be my final response because I know the moderators are watching (Scabe). If you want to Brawl me, then Brawl me, but change it to FT5, no. Why? Because this was started by a war and that wont happen.

I know you would've never Brawled but to prove a pathetic argument theory. This isn't the first time I've seen you view my blogs. The other one was "Anyone still play Brawl" and no one responded but two people showed up, G-something and you, Thor. I left for about a few minutes and returned and you were still there. I waited to see if you would post your FC since that means you still play Brawl, but you left. Now, you want to show me you can play Brawl when you're called out.

First thing you need to know about me, I don't act like that to people but when people like you want to act that then you actually annoy me. If you want to Brawl me, then Brawl me.

If you don't, then don't. Don't respond back to me because moderators will see this turned in some Soap Opera instead of a discussion or heck just leave the thread open, even if no one wants to write something that involves this particular topic. Thanks.
First to 5? You got it.

In fact, however long you want the set, we'll make it that long. I admit I can't bring my Wii to college so I may be physically unable to play enough games (if say, you want first to 1000 and we're pretty even) before I go back on mid-January (like Jan 15th or something), but I'll play however long a set I can manage before break ends. Of course I can't play 30 hours straight but if you want first to 100 and I'm only open for 3 or so hours, we could do 30 games or something, then take a break and agree on a time to play the next day.

I didn't post my FC back then because that was when I was at college without a Wii, so I was physically unable to do Wi-Fi Brawl (I did a summer program for a few months, and if memory serves that's when that thread was in use?) I'm able to now though and will play gladly.

All of that said, PM me (or I'll PM you if you'd prefer) so we can set up stage striking for game 1 and communicate counterpicks and if the winner switches character (since the winner can't switch off if the loser changes character anyway). I don't think we do stage bans in Best of 5. It also has to be modified Dave's Stupid Rule for a best of 5 or longer (that is, we can't go back to the last stage we won on, but if I won on Smashville game 1 and win game 4 elsewhere, I can go back to Smashville game 6, for instance), though I prefer modified DSR anyway.

Are there other stages (Delfino, Rainbow Cruise..., maybe something else I'm missing) you wanted added to the stage list? I can't think of other stages I'd gladly [which is an exaggeration to begin with] to add to the stage list besides those, but we can expand the stage list if you want (or we can remove stages if you don't like Castle Siege, Halberd, or Pokémon Stadium - though I strongly believe the 5 stages I listed as starters should be legal, even if Lylat and Yoshi's are counterpicks and the three starters are BF, SV, and FD).
 
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Radical Larry

Smash Lord
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Messages
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The Pocket Dimension
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Crimson-Vulcan
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(Why I bother to keep posting, I'll never know)

Here's a full list of buffs, nerfs, changes attacks, damages, counters and otherwise information about Link in Smash Bros. for Wii U and 3DS.

Attributes
  • Link appears to have greater speed in both the air and on the ground, alongside overall less lag in his attacks.
  • Link jumps much higher than he did previously.
  • Link's roll animations are now based on Link's abilities from Ocarina of Time.
Ground attacks
  • Forward tilt has less ending lag.
  • Dash attack is far stronger and can hit horizontally or vertically depending on which hitbox connects.
  • Dash attack is considerably slower to hit.
  • Dash attack now resembles the Jump Attack from Ocarina of Time, now being a jumping slash rather than a running stab.
  • Forward smash is stronger, and the second hit can be comboed into from the first hit (like Toon Link's).
  • Both hits of forward smash deal less damage (from 15%/20% to 14%/13%), and the first hit can only KO if the tip hits.
  • Up smash's final hit deals 1% more damage and deals much more knockback.
  • Down smash is now a powerful semi spike during the second hit.
Aerial attacks
  • Neutral aerial's clean hit has been split into two parts: the front half does 11% damage, while the back half does 9% damage (previously, it did 10% damage overall).
  • Forward aerial is much faster and has less ending lag and landing lag.
  • Forward aerial does less damage (from 9%/12% to 8%/10%).
  • Back aerial comes out much faster.
  • Back aerial does less damage (from 11% to 8%).
  • Up aerial has changed from its Zelda II: The Adventures of Link animation to a very wide scissor kick.
  • Down aerial has an added meteor smash during the start of the attack, similar to Toon Link's in Brawl. Link's down aerial also experiences significantly less ending lag and landing lag, providing him now with a safer attack when bouncing off opponents, and allowing him to recover if falling off the stage.
  • Outside the new meteor, down aerial is weaker overall, dealing a maximum of 18% damage as opposed to 22%.
  • Grab aerial covers much more distance when used as a tether and comes out much faster as an attack.
  • Grab aerial does less damage (from 10% to 6%).
Throws/other attacks
  • Grab has less startup and far less ending lag.
  • In the 3DS version, the Clawshot no longer falls to the ground as it retracts, like the Hookshot in SSB64.
  • Link has a new edge attack based on the Crouch Stab from Ocarina of Time.
Special moves
  • Hero's Bow charges faster.
  • Gale Boomerang has increased knockback.
  • Link's recovery with Spin Attack is overall much better, needing much less momentum than before, reaching much higher and farther than it did in Brawl.
  • Spin Attack has a slightly altered animation in which Link spins his sword at subtly different heights. However, it has no obvious change in power or range compared to Brawl.
  • If a Bomb explodes due to colliding with an opponent, the explosion doesn't hurt Link.
  • Bomb fuses are shorter and Link can attack and explode his own bombs in the air after throwing them, improving his bomb-aided recovery.
  • Bombs only deal 5% damage point-blank, but deal 8% damage when hitting the feet of the opponent.
  • Bombs will absorb blasts from a fully charged Charge Shot and Aura Sphere, aiding his defensive and camping options threefold.
  • Triforce Slash's damage has been lowered from 83% to 69%.
Moveset

Neutral attack - 2.5%, 2.5%, 5% A diagonal sword slash followed by a horizontal slash, with a lunging stab finisher. Loosely based on Link's final blow to Ganon in Ocarina of Time. Is a natural combo with fast startup and little knockback.


Forward tilt 13% An overhand sword swing with slow startup but high knockback.
Up tilt 9% A half-moon slice above Link's head. Good for low percent juggles.
Down tilt 12% A low sword swipe across the ground with vertical knockback. Meteor smashes opponents in contact with Link's body.
Dash attack 14% (tip), 13% (non-tip) Link performs a leaping downward slash (his "Jump Attack" from Ocarina of Time). Deals horizontal knockback when tipped and vertical knockback when hit close.
Forward smash - 14% (tip), 7% (non-tip) Link lunges forward with a wide sword swing in front of him, dealing good damage and knockback when tipped. The base of his sword has extremely little knockback, designed to naturally combo into an optional second hit: a sword swing with greater KO power.
13% (tip), 12% (non-tip)
Up smash 4% (hit 1), 3% (hit 2), 11%/10%/9% (hit 3) Three half-moon sword swings above Link's head.
Down smash 17%/16%/14% (hit 1), 12%/11%/10% (hit 2) A low slash in front and then behind Link. First hit sends opponents at a vertical trajectory while having slightly increased damage and knockback the closer you are to Link. Second hit is a powerful semi-spike with slightly increased damage and knockback on his blade.
Neutral aerial 11%/9% (clean), 6% (late) Link thrusts his leg out in front of him for an extended time. Is a sex kick with relatively fast startup and little landing lag. Deals more damage closer to his boot.
Forward aerial 8% (hit 1), 10% (hit 2) Swings his sword twice while spinning 360˚. While the second hit has more knockback, it's inconvenient to use, as it can only be landed if the first hit misses.
Back aerial 3% (hit 1), 5% (hit 2) A two kick combo behind Link with very little landing lag and low damage.
Up aerial 15% (clean), 13% (late) Link thrusts his sword up for a long duration. Moderate landing lag unless used alongside a full hop.
Down aerial 15% (early), 18% (clean), 15% (late) Aims his sword directly below him for a long duration, based on his "Downthrust" from Zelda II: The Adventures of Link. It's possible for Link to "bounce" on opponents into a second hit. The early hit is a powerful meteor smash.
Grab aerial Midair Clawshot 2.5% (hit 1), 4% (hit 2) Fires his Clawshot forward in the air with great range and no landing lag. Link can cancel his air dodge at any point via his tether, however it will not cancel the landing lag suffered from the dodge. The Clawshot also serves as a tether recovery that auto-snaps the ledge, covering great horizontal distance.
Grab Clawshot — Link fires his Clawshot forwards. This tether snaps straight back once fully extended, like the Hookshot from Super Smash Bros.
Pummel 2.1% Hits opponent with the hilt of the Master Sword. A fairly fast pummel.
Forward throw 3% (hit 1), 4% (throw) Link releases the opponent from his pummel and kicks them away.
Back throw 3% (hit 1), 4% (hit 2) Link takes his opponent behind him and kicks them away.
Up throw 5%/4% (hit 1), 2% (throw) Link raises the opponent above him and slashes upward.
Down throw 3% (hit 1), 4% (throw) Link takes the opponent onto the ground and elbow drops them.
Floor attack (front) 7% Does two slashes front and back.
Floor attack (back) 7% Does another two slashes front and back.
Floor attack (trip) 5% Essentially the same as his other two floor attacks.
Edge attack 7% Stabs forwards while climbing up.
Neutral special Default Hero's Bow 4%-12% Link equips his bow, with the arrows serving as projectiles. Charging increases the speed, distance and damage dealt by an arrow.
Custom 1 Power Bow 4%-20% Compared to the default, arrows deal more knockback at the expense of range and speed. When fully charged, they deal very heavy knockback.
Custom 2 Quickfire Bow 4%-8% Compared to the default, these arrows go straight and can go through enemies and projectiles. However, they have a very short range and deal no knockback.
Side special Default Gale Boomerang 7% (near), 5% (middle), 0% (far/return) A projectile which damages opponents as it flies away and drags opponents towards Link during its return. Can be angled up or down. A "smash throw" (similar to performing a smash attack) increases the distance the boomerang can travel.
Custom 1 Boomerang 9% (near), 7% (middle), 5% (far), 3% (return) Travels on the same route as the Gale Boomerang, however, unlike the Gale Boomerang, this one retains its properties from both Super Smash Bros. and Super Smash Bros. Melee, where there's no whirlwind effects whatsoever but adds damage to the boomerang's return. It does have less knockback, but more angle.
Custom 2 Ripping Boomerang 4% (near), 2% (middle), 1.5% (far), 0.7% (return) Travels across a much shorter range than the Gale Boomerang, but also deals multiple hits of low damage and adds stun to the opponents.
Up special Default Spin Attack 12%/9%/7%/5% (ground), 4% (air hit 1), 2% (air hits 2-8), 4% (air hit 9) This move functions differently when grounded and airborne; an aerial Spin Attack is used as recovery which grants Link great vertical distance. Hits 5 times in the air. A grounded Spin Attack is akin to most Zelda games, and functions similarly to a smash attack with great knockback.
Custom 1 Shocking Spin 14%/9%/7%/5% (ground), 4% (air hit 1), 1% (air hits 2-4), 6% (air hit 5) A much more powerful version of the Spin Attack, where Link is able to deal much more knockback with an electric effect and can charge the move more quickly. The downside however, is the fact that Link's recovery is much shorter and has poor horizontal motion. The aerial version can semi-spike.
Custom 2 Whirling Leap 0% A special type of Spin Attack that can only be used as a recovery move. It produces no hits and thus, no damage whatsoever, but actually travels much higher and much further than the normal recovery, even to the point of not relying on momentum and performing multiple left and right movements.
Down special Default Bomb 5% (upper body), 8% (feet) An item based projectile Link pulls out, with its design from Twilight Princess. An explosion deals damage when in direct contact with an opponent, though it's possible to get additional damage from an indirect hit from a blast. Link can hurt himself with this move, which can grant him an extra Spin Attack if used skillfully. An odd function is that it will deal 8% damage when it hits the feet.
Custom 1 Giant Bomb 8%-10% A bomb that's grown to massive size, increasing its hitbox and properties, though it remains practically the same. However, they cannot blow up when thrown at the opponent, and need time or another explosion to blow up. They deal damage based on range.
Custom 2 Meteor Bomb 5% Weaker versions of the bombs at lower percents with a noticeably short fuse. However, they have the unique property of causing a meteor to happen, which can damage Link as well. It's not good for recoveries whatsoever, though it provides a new tool for Link's arsenal.
Final Smash Triforce Slash 1% (snag), 30% (last hit) Link locks onto an opponent and proceeds to slash them repeatedly with his Master Sword. A luminous image of the Triforce appears around the opponent as Link slashes them. The final strike launches the opponent.
 
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Thor

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Also if you full hop double jump and immediately as you double jump do a dair, the dair will autocancel (have no landing lag, or rather the landing lag you get when you land while doing nothing). This was not possible in Brawl and allows LInk to attempt to dair an opponent fairly high above him much more safely [since if you can avoid fastfalling it you will land and be able to act right away].

And I take it you ripped that from here: http://www.ssbwiki.com/Link_(SSB4)
 
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N.T.A.O ChangeOfHeart 死の剣

不自然な不道徳な中空デミ神〜
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First to 5? You got it.

In fact, however long you want the set, we'll make it that long. I admit I can't bring my Wii to college so I may be physically unable to play enough games (if say, you want first to 1000 and we're pretty even) before I go back on mid-January (like Jan 15th or something), but I'll play however long a set I can manage before break ends. Of course I can't play 30 hours straight but if you want first to 100 and I'm only open for 3 or so hours, we could do 30 games or something, then take a break and agree on a time to play the next day.

I didn't post my FC back then because that was when I was at college without a Wii, so I was physically unable to do Wi-Fi Brawl (I did a summer program for a few months, and if memory serves that's when that thread was in use?) I'm able to now though and will play gladly.

All of that said, PM me (or I'll PM you if you'd prefer) so we can set up stage striking for game 1 and communicate counterpicks and if the winner switches character (since the winner can't switch off if the loser changes character anyway). I don't think we do stage bans in Best of 5. It also has to be modified Dave's Stupid Rule for a best of 5 or longer (that is, we can't go back to the last stage we won on, but if I won on Smashville game 1 and win game 4 elsewhere, I can go back to Smashville game 6, for instance), though I prefer modified DSR anyway.

Are there other stages (Delfino, Rainbow Cruise..., maybe something else I'm missing) you wanted added to the stage list? I can't think of other stages I'd gladly [which is an exaggeration to begin with] to add to the stage list besides those, but we can expand the stage list if you want (or we can remove stages if you don't like Castle Siege, Halberd, or Pokémon Stadium - though I strongly believe the 5 stages I listed as starters should be legal, even if Lylat and Yoshi's are counterpicks and the three starters are BF, SV, and FD).
Oh, okay, makes sense now, wait, Dave the Ike main, right? ..righttt, if your connection is anyway near his, then no way in brimstone will we Brawl. Even though Brawl players are rarely seen, there is one thing I stick to no matter what which is 'connection standard operation'. No PMs, I'll just go Online and wait, simple as that.

@ Radical Larry Radical Larry

Okay, that still doesn't prove much really, all it's preferring to is Link is better on paper. But I'm looking for showing not paper wise, I have yet to see him thrive better in Smash-4 thus far, no. Also, I don't believe none of that, why? Because all that Jumbo-mombo hasn't been seen yet in Smash-4, Link.

Here's the funny part imo, in Brawl they mentioned all of this and that, and guess what? They NEVER committed to it either but it was on paper though yet no one did everything Link had to offer they just used what would work with their certain mind-set of, Game-play. I know Smash-4 wont be any different, though tbh, I feel he might have better results compared to Brawl and the very 'optimistic' Link main-ers (no names intended). Yes, I see it now, they don't need to work very hard and think very hard as well. So now, yes, I can actually see change, though the time is, when? But right now at this very moment where I'm writing, no.
 
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Thor

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Oh, okay, makes sense now, wait, Dave the Ike main, right? ..righttt, if your connection is anyway near his, then no way in brimstone will we Brawl. Even though Brawl players are rarely seen, there is one thing I stick to no matter what which is 'connection standard operation'. No PMs, I'll just go Online and wait, simple as that.

@ Radical Larry Radical Larry

Okay, that still doesn't prove much really, all it's preferring to is Link is better on paper. But I'm looking for showing not paper wise, I have yet to see him thrive better in Smash-4 thus far, no. Also, I don't believe none of that, why? Because all that Jumbo-mombo hasn't been seen yet in Smash-4, Link.

Here's the funny part imo, in Brawl they mentioned all of this and that, and guess what? They NEVER committed to it either but it was on paper though yet no one did everything Link had to offer they just used what would work with their certain mind-set of, Game-play. I know Smash-4 wont be any different, though tbh, I feel he might have better results compared to Brawl and the very 'optimistic' Link main-ers (no names intended). Yes, I see it now, they don't need to work very hard and think very hard as well. So now, yes, I can actually see change, though the time is, when? But right now at this very moment where I'm writing, no.
I don't think I have your FC. Or should I locate it elsewhere?

My connection is generally good but if things suck we won't do this then.

EDIT: Think I found your FC and I'm heading online, but my brother is on LoL I think, so we'll see how good or bad this is... unless you aren't on right now???

DOUBLE EDIT: I'll be on tomorrow [or I guess today is Tuesday, so Tuesday] sometime, I put your FC (or what I think is your FC) in so I hope you've got mine in...
 
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Radical Larry

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Also if you full hop double jump and immediately as you double jump do a dair, the dair will autocancel (have no landing lag, or rather the landing lag you get when you land while doing nothing). This was not possible in Brawl and allows LInk to attempt to dair an opponent fairly high above him much more safely [since if you can avoid fastfalling it you will land and be able to act right away].

And I take it you ripped that from here: http://www.ssbwiki.com/Link_(SSB4)
Why yes, but that information, a lot of it, actually, came from a constant editor that I partner with.

@ N.T.A.O ChangeOfHeart 死の剣 N.T.A.O ChangeOfHeart 死の剣 , umm, here's the thing. I'm a Link player myself in Smash 4, and I am quite capable of beating most of my opponents with him. These include competent Diddy Kong, Sheik, and top tier players.
 
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N.T.A.O ChangeOfHeart 死の剣

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Why yes, but that information, a lot of it, actually, came from a constant editor that I partner with.

@ N.T.A.O ChangeOfHeart 死の剣 N.T.A.O ChangeOfHeart 死の剣 , umm, here's the thing. I'm a Link player myself in Smash 4, and I am quite capable of beating most of my opponents with him. These include competent Diddy Kong, Sheik, and top tier players.
I'm sure you can that's not my point, my point is it's too early to jump over eight years of Brawl Link and right off the bat type 'he's better' sure, he's improved in some places and as well deformed in some other places. What I want to see now is what he's capable of in Smash-4. Good for you though beating Diddy in Smash-4, now try it in Brawl, he he.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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How is he worse is which areas?

Specials? Customs make him either better or give him more versatility.

Normals? Jab and Dair kill power nerfed sure but the KO Dash attack and better normals for movements and set-Ups is more than welcomed.

Recovery was his largest issue in Brawl and that has been fixed. Others might have gotten buffed in that area but that never was an issue for him. Link excels best at neutral. Letting him deal with juggles, avoiding them, and a better recovery is what he needed and he got it.

Better grab, with legit follow ups now os also a plus.

Sorry but I played in him Brawl since 08, he was more so buffed than Neffed.
 

N.T.A.O ChangeOfHeart 死の剣

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How is he worse is which areas?

Specials? Customs make him either better or give him more versatility.

Normals? Jab and Dair kill power nerfed sure but the KO Dash attack and better normals for movements and set-Ups is more than welcomed.

Recovery was his largest issue in Brawl and that has been fixed. Others might have gotten buffed in that area but that never was an issue for him. Link excels best at neutral. Letting him deal with juggles, avoiding them, and a better recovery is what he needed and he got it.

Better grab, with legit follow ups now os also a plus.

Sorry but I played in him Brawl since 08, he was more so buffed than Neffed.
Like I wrote in the previous comment, "he's improved in some places and as well deformed in other places".

2008 huh, well, I don't see Link like the way you all do. I played Smash-4 for like a full week with my mains (Link and Mega-man) he can barely follow up anything, the most is like two hits and the opponent can just air dodge plus the damage ratio is nerf-ed. It took me a full half an hour to understand how the game is played and the rest of the days understanding the character's mechanics.

No disrespect, but I don't care if you believe he's better in Smash-4 when I don't and I'm very sure others feel the same way. I do however respect your opinion because it makes sense, he can now recover due to no more edge guarding and can kill with his Dash attack. However, he just feels like a 'grandpa' some person described him like that and, I agree. He just feels like you're playing on Wi-Fi Brawl with lag involved but only on Offline not Online whatsoever, no.

I prefer to not write why I believe you enjoy him better in Smash-4. Rather than me just write, time will tell who is right and who is wrong. Thanks.
 
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Radical Larry

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Here's a list of Link's combos with just his N-air alone in Smash 4, from my use and experience (surprisingly, there's a lot):

Grounded:
N-air (late) > Dash Attack
N-air (late) > Roll > Forward Smash (Tip)
N-air (late) > Roll > Forward Smash |> Forward Smash 2
N-air (late) > Roll > Spin Attack
N-air (late) > Roll > D-Smash (Semi-Spike)
N-air (late) > Roll > F-Tilt
SH N-air > Jab
SH N-air > Tilt

Aerial:
N-air (late) > F-air
SH N-air > Land > SH N-air
SH N-air > Land > SH D-air

N-air is the best tool for setting up aerial > ground combos and easy finishers, and I've tested these all out on human players, so these can definitely work well if used correctly. N-air could not do nearly as much of these in Brawl, from what I've seen.
 
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#HBC | Red Ryu

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Like I wrote in the previous comment, "he's improved in some places and as well deformed in other places".

2008 huh, well, I don't see Link like the way you all do. I played Smash-4 for like a full week with my mains (Link and Mega-man) he can barely follow up anything, the most is like two hits and the opponent can just air dodge plus the damage ratio is nerf-ed. It took me a full half an hour to understand how the game is played and the rest of the days understanding the character's mechanics.

No disrespect, but I don't care if you believe he's better in Smash-4 when I don't and I'm very sure others feel the same way. I do however respect your opinion because it makes sense, he can now recover due to no more edge guarding and can kill with his Dash attack. However, he just feels like a 'grandpa' some person described him like that and, I agree. He just feels like you're playing on Wi-Fi Brawl with lag involved but only on Offline not Online whatsoever, no.

I prefer to not write why I believe you enjoy him better in Smash-4. Rather than me just write, time will tell who is right and who is wrong. Thanks.
The bolded tells me you have zero interest in actual discussion over just spreading your vendetta. If you wanna play this game with me, you can but I guarantee I know Brawl Link a hell of a lot better than you do, I mained and tried to play him in tournament and even then used him numerous times to learn his match-ups.

He is far better in Smash 4 by a long shot.

and yes he can follow up a lot better in smash 4 and his kill power is a lot stronger overall, he is a lot better overall since he can actually recover, his recovery in Brawl was one of the worst and easiest to edgeguard.
 
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N.T.A.O ChangeOfHeart 死の剣

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The bolded tells me you have zero interest in actual discussion over just spreading your vendetta. If you wanna play this game with me, you can but I guarantee I know Brawl Link a hell of a lot better than you do, I mained and tried to play him in tournament and even then used him numerous times to learn his match-ups.

He is far better in Smash 4 by a long shot.

and yes he can follow up a lot better in smash 4 and his kill power is a lot stronger overall, he is a lot better overall since he can actually recover, his recovery in Brawl was one of the worst and easiest to edgeguard.
No, my point is I've read it all already and yet you return back to the paper, I've already read it and yes he's improved some and degraded some as well.

And I knew your ego is high, and the funny thing is I've never heard of you like ever. So you want to Brawl me then? I feel a trap because whenever you're here the Scooby gang is right behind and you know who I'm ranting about. Once again he's the same as Link in Brawl/64 unable to recover but now since edge guarding is gone, yes he can now recover. But nothing changed only they gave everyone Disability privileges in the new Smash game, yes.

You know him better huh, so, let's not jump to a Link ditto since it will be horrid and I know it will lag badly. Instead, let's have us one match, I choose any character that isn't MK, any real bad threat for your knowledge, Snake (I love the Snake match-up btw) and you choose Link. But any character wont be a problem since you go to tournaments and know Link inside and out, huh?

Hopefully you can beat my simple pocket character. Because get this, if you lose to a bad player that doesn't know how to use Link whatsoever like myself of course, your credibility as you knowing more will be nothing but a myth in my eyes. Oh, and I will live record and record just in-case you want to pull a fast like someone else and write 'I beat him'.

I tried to steer away but warn you that I know why you prefer him better there, but you want to push with that knowledge veteran ego of yours. Okay, back your words up like I did when I brawled Thor in a FT5 and won (no disrespect whatsoever towards Thor great games man). Matter of fact don't actually, why? It's Wi-Fi it wont prove nothing.

Show me video proof now please, I think I read enough Smash-4 information to actually coach someone lol. Thanks.
 
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Radical Larry

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No, my point is I've read it all already and yet you return back to the paper, I've already read it and yes he's improved some and degraded some as well.

And I knew your ego is high, and the funny thing is I've never heard of you like ever. So you want to Brawl me then? I feel a trap because whenever you're here the Scooby gang is right behind and you know who I'm ranting about. Once again he's the same as Link in Brawl/64 unable to recover but now since edge guarding is gone, yes he can now recover. But nothing changed only they gave everyone Disability privileges in the new Smash game, yes.

You know him better huh, so, let's not jump to a Link ditto since it will be horrid and I know it will lag badly. Instead, let's have us one match, I choose any character that isn't MK, any real bad threat for your knowledge, Snake (I love the Snake match-up btw) and you choose Link. But any character wont be a problem since you go to tournaments and know Link inside and out, huh?

Hopefully you can beat my simple pocket character. Because get this, if you lose to a bad player that doesn't know how to use Link whatsoever like myself of course, your credibility as you knowing more will be nothing but a myth in my eyes. Oh, and I will live record and record just in-case you want to pull a fast like someone else and write 'I beat him'.

I tried to steer away but warn you that I know why you prefer him better there, but you want to push with that knowledge veteran ego of yours. Okay, back your words up like I did when I brawled Thor in a FT5 and won (no disrespect whatsoever towards Thor great games man). Matter of fact don't actually, why? It's Wi-Fi it wont prove nothing.

Show me video proof now please, I think I read enough Smash-4 information to actually coach someone lol. Thanks.

Can a moderator PLEASE shut this topic and shut this guy up!?

Aside from me blowing a gasket over this man's idiocy, let me explain a few things; first off, you seem as if you're not a Link main at all, and just rant and rave against a character who's actually great in a game, despite being horrible in the last one. Link's recovery is far better thanks to Z-air and the heightened/lengthened recovery move, as well as his Whirling Leap custom, which, by the way, can allow Link to traverse Magicant in a single bound in the 3DS version.

His Bomb Recovery is better thanks to shorter fuses on the Bombs, which actually have been buffed in every corner. His attacks have KO capabilities on all of them, his specials are what he needs in a game now. But the funny thing is, is that you, the person who's gotten his facts wrong and made himself look like a fool for the past few days now, still insist that he's better in Brawl, when he just is not!!

Everything he had lacking in Brawl, he has better now in this game. Regardless if things were removed, he's still buffed.

Oh, and stop saying edge-guarding, you dumb loaf! Sakurai removed edgehogging, which is not the same thing as edge-guarding, not by a long shot. No, edge-guarding is hitting your opponents further away from the edge if they still have recoveries or jumps left, only to hinder them. EdgeHOGGING is the thing you're mentioning that got removed.

And here's here's something you could try; try going against me in a match on Smash Bros. for 3DS, I can make sure you get creamed from this side of the world in Louisiana to the damn Pocket Dimension in the fictional universe of the SCP FOUNDATION!

...

Again, anyone who is not COH, who is reading this, I am sorry for blowing a gasket, but this all had to be said. If he wants to prove a point, then I'll have him try. All he's done is blabber on and on about a discussion that shouldn't even be, and hasn't proven his point, while millions of other people already know Link is superior in the new game.

Even in Eventhubs, Link is 9th place in their tier list for SSB4, while in Brawl, he's 29th. Though it's not as reliable, it surely shows how much people know Link's better.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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No, my point is I've read it all already and yet you return back to the paper, I've already read it and yes he's improved some and degraded some as well.

And I knew your ego is high, and the funny thing is I've never heard of you like ever. So you want to Brawl me then? I feel a trap because whenever you're here the Scooby gang is right behind and you know who I'm ranting about. Once again he's the same as Link in Brawl/64 unable to recover but now since edge guarding is gone, yes he can now recover. But nothing changed only they gave everyone Disability privileges in the new Smash game, yes.

You know him better huh, so, let's not jump to a Link ditto since it will be horrid and I know it will lag badly. Instead, let's have us one match, I choose any character that isn't MK, any real bad threat for your knowledge, Snake (I love the Snake match-up btw) and you choose Link. But any character wont be a problem since you go to tournaments and know Link inside and out, huh?

Hopefully you can beat my simple pocket character. Because get this, if you lose to a bad player that doesn't know how to use Link whatsoever like myself of course, your credibility as you knowing more will be nothing but a myth in my eyes. Oh, and I will live record and record just in-case you want to pull a fast like someone else and write 'I beat him'.

I tried to steer away but warn you that I know why you prefer him better there, but you want to push with that knowledge veteran ego of yours. Okay, back your words up like I did when I brawled Thor in a FT5 and won (no disrespect whatsoever towards Thor great games man). Matter of fact don't actually, why? It's Wi-Fi it wont prove nothing.

Show me video proof now please, I think I read enough Smash-4 information to actually coach someone lol. Thanks.
The issue I have with you is actually your ego in this thread and the responses you have been handing out.

If you actually cared to discuss this with other people who played Link, you clearly don't since you have been strawmaning responses over actual discussion.

Here is actual discussion.

Link was bottom 5 in Brawl because his recovery was completely terrible, he gains a lot more height in smash 4 which is a huge boost to his ability to recover, his biggest issue in Brawl. Literally you can blow wind on him and Link will fail to recover, or even just hog the ledge so he has to land on stage. Congrates, now he is stuck in a lag in which pretty much everyone can punish him one way or another. Because Edgehogging is no longer a think, he can actually force his way to the ledge against some characters if he isn't predictable. You can't blow wind on him anymore and make his recovery fail.

On top of this, his ability to snag a kill is pretty much not possible with anyone with a brain.

Dair kills? You outread them somehow hard or you used a bomb to footstool dair. If not then you used it to sour spot nair and jab lock them on the ground for a Fsmash or Dsmash kill. He will never kill with Usmash if the opponent knows any sense of DI, period. So vertically you got Utilt to catch someone if you are lucky.

He can't put pressure or get anyone reliably into a situation to kill them easily, add on top the fact survivability is so high in Brawl, far more than Smash 4 since living post 100 is pretty easy with most of the cast even against Link who has decent KO power. So now Link has to play in neutral far more than before, only now he has terrible air speed and jumping in itself takes a long time with him, 8 frames or so in Brawl.

The only thing in Brawl that was overall better was how strong his jab lock was going farther than 3 hits and his tether in the air is worse with Zair.

Then what did he get in return? Any "combo" he had in Brawl and then some, killing earlier so he doesn't need to rely on playing cross ups inn neutral as much, everyone else's projectiles getting nerfed far far far more than Link's were. Link's barely were touched, getting customs that help his utility in match-ups a lot more. A Boomerang that can be used to actually link stuff better for cross ups.

If you want to play me, go for it. I don't play Brawl wifi anymore so don't bother there. I play Smash 4 all the time so I can talk and play there.

I'm not calling you out on being bad, I'm calling you out on not understanding how bad he was in Brawl. He was bottom 5 for a reason and a lot of people are placing him higher on tier lists in smash 4 for a reason.

This is the first game outside of mods where he isn't low tier, I can't say how good but he is a hell of a lot better than before. It's not just what happened with him, it's how others and the environment around him changed. It was all for the better with him.

Can a moderator PLEASE shut this topic and shut this guy up!?

Aside from me blowing a gasket over this man's idiocy, let me explain a few things; first off, you seem as if you're not a Link main at all, and just rant and rave against a character who's actually great in a game, despite being horrible in the last one. Link's recovery is far better thanks to Z-air and the heightened/lengthened recovery move, as well as his Whirling Leap custom, which, by the way, can allow Link to traverse Magicant in a single bound in the 3DS version.

His Bomb Recovery is better thanks to shorter fuses on the Bombs, which actually have been buffed in every corner. His attacks have KO capabilities on all of them, his specials are what he needs in a game now. But the funny thing is, is that you, the person who's gotten his facts wrong and made himself look like a fool for the past few days now, still insist that he's better in Brawl, when he just is not!!

Everything he had lacking in Brawl, he has better now in this game. Regardless if things were removed, he's still buffed.

Oh, and stop saying edge-guarding, you dumb loaf! Sakurai removed edgehogging, which is not the same thing as edge-guarding, not by a long shot. No, edge-guarding is hitting your opponents further away from the edge if they still have recoveries or jumps left, only to hinder them. EdgeHOGGING is the thing you're mentioning that got removed.

And here's here's something you could try; try going against me in a match on Smash Bros. for 3DS, I can make sure you get creamed from this side of the world in Louisiana to the damn Pocket Dimension in the fictional universe of the SCP FOUNDATION!

...

Again, anyone who is not COH, who is reading this, I am sorry for blowing a gasket, but this all had to be said. If he wants to prove a point, then I'll have him try. All he's done is blabber on and on about a discussion that shouldn't even be, and hasn't proven his point, while millions of other people already know Link is superior in the new game.

Even in Eventhubs, Link is 9th place in their tier list for SSB4, while in Brawl, he's 29th. Though it's not as reliable, it surely shows how much people know Link's better.
I'm willing to try and talk to him if he is willing to, if he shows signs that he has no intention of legit discussion. I will lock this.

That said, please don't flame him no matter how frustrated you might be with this.
 
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Radical Larry

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The issue I have with you is actually your ego in this thread and the responses you have been handing out.

If you actually cared to discuss this with other people who played Link, you clearly don't since you have been strawmaning responses over actual discussion.

Here is actual discussion.

Link was bottom 5 in Brawl because his recovery was completely terrible, he gains a lot more height in smash 4 which is a huge boost to his ability to recover, his biggest issue in Brawl. Literally you can blow wind on him and Link will fail to recover, or even just hog the ledge so he has to land on stage. Congrates, now he is stuck in a lag in which pretty much everyone can punish him one way or another. Because Edgehogging is no longer a think, he can actually force his way to the ledge against some characters if he isn't predictable. You can't blow wind on him anymore and make his recovery fail.

On top of this, his ability to snag a kill is pretty much not possible with anyone with a brain.

Dair kills? You outread them somehow hard or you used a bomb to footstool dair. If not then you used it to sour spot nair and jab lock them on the ground for a Fsmash or Dsmash kill. He will never kill with Usmash if the opponent knows any sense of DI, period. So vertically you got Utilt to catch someone if you are lucky.

He can't put pressure or get anyone reliably into a situation to kill them easily, add on top the fact survivability is so high in Brawl, far more than Smash 4 since living post 100 is pretty easy with most of the cast even against Link who has decent KO power. So now Link has to play in neutral far more than before, only now he has terrible air speed and jumping in itself takes a long time with him, 8 frames or so in Brawl.

The only thing in Brawl that was overall better was how strong his jab lock was going farther than 3 hits and his tether in the air is worse with Zair.

Then what did he get in return? Any "combo" he had in Brawl and then some, killing earlier so he doesn't need to rely on playing cross ups inn neutral as much, everyone else's projectiles getting nerfed far far far more than Link's were. Link's barely were touched, getting customs that help his utility in match-ups a lot more. A Boomerang that can be used to actually link stuff better for cross ups.

If you want to play me, go for it. I don't play Brawl wifi anymore so don't bother there. I play Smash 4 all the time so I can talk and play there.

I'm not calling you out on being bad, I'm calling you out on not understanding how bad he was in Brawl. He was bottom 5 for a reason and a lot of people are placing him higher on tier lists in smash 4 for a reason.

This is the first game outside of mods where he isn't low tier, I can't say how good but he is a hell of a lot better than before. It's not just what happened with him, it's how others and the environment around him changed. It was all for the better with him.



I'm willing to try and talk to him if he is willing to, if he shows signs that he has no intention of legit discussion. I will lock this.

That said, please don't flame him no matter how frustrated you might be with this.
Sorry man, but my head just went south for a moment. I'm cooled down now.
You are right about this stuff, too.
 

N.T.A.O ChangeOfHeart 死の剣

不自然な不道徳な中空デミ神〜
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Mar 29, 2012
Messages
3,123
Can a moderator PLEASE shut this topic and shut this guy up!?

Aside from me blowing a gasket over this man's idiocy, let me explain a few things; first off, you seem as if you're not a Link main at all, and just rant and rave against a character who's actually great in a game, despite being horrible in the last one. Link's recovery is far better thanks to Z-air and the heightened/lengthened recovery move, as well as his Whirling Leap custom, which, by the way, can allow Link to traverse Magicant in a single bound in the 3DS version.

His Bomb Recovery is better thanks to shorter fuses on the Bombs, which actually have been buffed in every corner. His attacks have KO capabilities on all of them, his specials are what he needs in a game now. But the funny thing is, is that you, the person who's gotten his facts wrong and made himself look like a fool for the past few days now, still insist that he's better in Brawl, when he just is not!!

Everything he had lacking in Brawl, he has better now in this game. Regardless if things were removed, he's still buffed.

Oh, and stop saying edge-guarding, you dumb loaf! Sakurai removed edgehogging, which is not the same thing as edge-guarding, not by a long shot. No, edge-guarding is hitting your opponents further away from the edge if they still have recoveries or jumps left, only to hinder them. EdgeHOGGING is the thing you're mentioning that got removed.

And here's here's something you could try; try going against me in a match on Smash Bros. for 3DS, I can make sure you get creamed from this side of the world in Louisiana to the damn Pocket Dimension in the fictional universe of the SCP FOUNDATION!

...

Again, anyone who is not COH, who is reading this, I am sorry for blowing a gasket, but this all had to be said. If he wants to prove a point, then I'll have him try. All he's done is blabber on and on about a discussion that shouldn't even be, and hasn't proven his point, while millions of other people already know Link is superior in the new game.

Even in Eventhubs, Link is 9th place in their tier list for SSB4, while in Brawl, he's 29th. Though it's not as reliable, it surely shows how much people know Link's better.
Here we go again with another, if you don't want to be apart then go geez, lock the thread for what, because I and others see Link better in Brawl than in Smash-4. So I wonder what will happen if I compare them to Melee, well?

I haven't done nothing but read what you wrote and yet I want real live proof meaning videos and results, please? Heck, Kirin-blaze lost to Chibo and he never has in Brawl, yet he loses in Smash-4 and he was improved of course with better stuff and not being gimped yet, he lost.

Okay, how about this, I believe you on he's improved on paper, now I want some results claiming he's ALL AROUND better not just PAPER.

@ #HBC | Red Ryu #HBC | Red Ryu

Alright, but the ego? Um, well, nvm, sure I have a ego for Brawl since it makes sense actually. Debate, I'm still reading what you're all writing but give me real live footage, that okay, or not?

I already wrote this, but even Izaw claimed he's not very happy with the changes yet he still has him as a sub-main and of course Sheik being his main.

Ha ha, Smash-4 quad against a lonely Brawler, hmm. Thanks.
 
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#HBC | Red Ryu

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Here we go again with another, if you don't want to be apart then go geez, lock the thread for what, because I and others see Link better in Brawl than in Smash-4. So I wonder what will happen if I compare them to Melee, well?

I haven't done nothing but read what you wrote and yet I want real live proof meaning videos and results, please? Heck, Kirin-blaze lost to Chibo and he never has in Brawl, yet he loses in Smash-4 and he was improved of course with better stuff and not being gimped yet, he lost.

Okay, how about this, I believe you on he's improved on paper, now I want some results claiming he's ALL AROUND better not just PAPER.

@ #HBC | Red Ryu #HBC | Red Ryu

Alright, but the ego? Um, well, nvm, sure I have a ego for Brawl since it makes sense actually. Debate, I'm still reading what you're all writing but give me real live footage, that okay, or not?

I already wrote this, but even Izaw claimed he's not very happy with the changes yet he still has him as a sub-main and of course Sheik being his main.

Ha ha, Smash-4 quad against a lonely Brawler, hmm. Thanks.
Live footage of what? Me playing Link? I got some from wifi years ago but that's it. Change differences? You gotta either trust people actually playing him in Smash 4 vs others. Like real live footage? A lot of the changes you even admitted but decided to downplay a lot.

You laughed off a 50% difference in KO power on dash attack, that's a huge difference. That's like nerfed Fox Usmash from Brawl to Smash 4, that's a huge change in how you consider a move like that. Killing that much easier, plus no DIing out of his Usmash is a pretty damn big deal for Link. Since his KO power actually stands out a lot better.

For the record I played Brawl for 6 years before I played Smash 4, so don't even bother playing that card with saying I'm ganging up on a "Brawler" or something.

Of course he was changed, not everyone will be happy with everything. Hell I'm not totally happy with Lucario changes but I still love him, same with Peach.

Yes he can't quickdraw, or bomb slide or DACUS. That doesn't change the large changes he got that are much much much better for him overall at this point.

I'm not even sure what you are addressing at this point, do you want me to make a video comparing the frame data, knockback, KO power, movement and the like? You either are acknowledging these are correct and hand waving them away for no real reason or just flat out ignoring them because you have a clear favoritism for Brawl Link.
 
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