Dat recovery hitbox though

[666blaziken]

First thing's first, look at the video I posted. I don't care if ness has a far reach with his up b, or that he has a lingering hitbox, but if sonic, who's the king of gimping stalling recoveries such as fox's, falco's, and lucario's is having trouble, what makes anyone think his recovery is safe to gimp with any other character if ness has that starting hitbox and can hit them super close with pkt2. It feels like I have to get lucky and hit his thunder ball or predict his thunder really early. Imagine fox trying to shine him, or anyone trying to run Into the ball only to run into that big hitbox and getting pkt2'd out of the area. It makes the matchup slower, less interesting, defensive, and more boring to watch.

 

[666blaziken]

It should appear here:

 

[666blaziken]

Nvm, my iPad won't let me upload, so here's a pic:

 

[666blaziken]

Inb4 "ness got nerfed hard enough, he doesn't need anymore nerfs". I am not saying he needs a nerf, I am just letting people know not to gimp ness while he is recovering.

 

[Kayo]

He's fine.

 

[666blaziken]

He's fine.

It gets me salty, and I am sure I am not the only one. You have 16 frames after he starts calling out his move to go off stage and gimp him before that hitbox activates, which is a lot of commitment because his fair is hard to get around if he decides not to recover at that exact moment, you will get punished. During the 3 frames when that hitbox is out, you can't gimp him sideways because it's kind of disjointed, and afterwards, you have to try to gimp him sideways because his head is covered by pk thunder (which you could intercept, but if you miss, you get punished by the trails.) overall, the only real way to guarantee a gimp is to try to stay near the edge and tilt or smash attack at a low angle to try to him him untill he takes too much damage.

 

[ilysm]

If I'm correct, you don't really punish him on the move's startup. Unless your opponent has some truly magical angles, you punish as he's coming towards you. IMO the reason it's always been one of the worse recoveries is that it's been kind of (hate this word in PM) gimmicky. The design choice was essentially to give him a projectile that doubles as a very specific recovery or vice versa. But in 64, Melee, and Brawl, the end result of trying to balance such a gimmick was a move that was really lacking both as a projectile and as a recovery. PM fixes this by making it a so-so projectile, but a fairly good recovery (Smash 4 on the other hand makes it a good projectile and an ok recovery). It's still punishable though. You can always sit on top of him, which is high risk high reward of course. Or just wait until they're traveling back towards the stage. I mean, sure, it may take a while if you don't have the hitboxes or sea legs to challenge him while he's steering the bolt, but I think it's meant to be that way.

 

[666blaziken]

If I'm correct, you don't really punish him on the move's startup. Unless your opponent has some truly magical angles, you punish as he's coming towards you. IMO the reason it's always been one of the worse recoveries is that it's been kind of (hate this word in PM) gimmicky. The design choice was essentially to give him a projectile that doubles as a very specific recovery or vice versa. But in 64, Melee, and Brawl, the end result of trying to balance such a gimmick was a move that was really lacking both as a projectile and as a recovery. PM fixes this by making it a so-so projectile, but a fairly good recovery (Smash 4 on the other hand makes it a good projectile and an ok recovery). It's still punishable though. You can always sit on top of him, which is high risk high reward of course. Or just wait until they're traveling back towards the stage. I mean, sure, it may take a while if you don't have the hitboxes or sea legs to challenge him while he's steering the bolt, but I think it's meant to be that way.

Exactly, that's the problem. I think that ness's recovery is really good. he is floaty enough that he can float back to stage, but to have a recovery that goes as long as fox's is kind of silly. I feel like there shouldn't be that hitbox and ness's recovery should be easier to gimp. Good ness players should be better and should have to space out their recoveries so they can sweet spot the ledge, and avoid trying to recover near the opponent, this would set up a skill gap between different ness players offstage game. However, this isn't my game, and I should just learn to adapt, so I'm not complaining.

 

[Akhenderson]

So let me get this straight...
You want OUR recovery to be EVEN WORSE than Fox's up B when ness's recovery is:
- More linear and readable because of the PKT giving a visual cue

- Speaking of visual cue, if Ness player's can't see the PKT on screen, they have to FEEL OUT HOW TO RECOVER WITHOUT LOOKING AT THEIR METHOD OF RECOVERY where as everyone can just point a direction. (Even Lucas's is easier because he stays stationary in the air whereas Ness actually falls while using PKT which means IF YOU MISS, you lose a stock guaranteed.)

- 20 FRAMES of Landing lag as opposed to 6 frames that fox and falco has

- Only 1 unit SMALLER than Fox's (Tested in Training Mode)

- More difficult to AIM than Fire Fox, which in turn makes it difficult to CONSISTENTLY sweet spot the ledge

- Has to travel 80-90% of the way for it to be able to edgecancel PROPERLY.

- Projectiles against Ness are EXTREMELY LOW RISK and INCREDIBLY REWARDING when edgeguarding like this stupid thing that can happen: https://gfycat.com/BruisedCapitalAlbacoretuna

- By the way? Imagine Fox trying to shine him while PKT2ing? Yeah, that's possible. Also note, this was in 3.02 where the only change to Ness's recovery was the 20 frames of landing lag: https://gfycat.com/EthicalNarrowAlaskankleekai

Ness has enough problems with his recovery as is, being a more difficult to use Fire Fox and being incredibly easy to punish if Ness is below the stage. Example: https://gfycat.com/LimpPoliticalGrayreefshark

 

[666blaziken]

So let me get this straight...
You want OUR recovery to be EVEN WORSE than Fox's up B when ness's recovery is:
- More linear and readable because of the PKT giving a visual cue

- Speaking of visual cue, if Ness player's can't see the PKT on screen, they have to FEEL OUT HOW TO RECOVER WITHOUT LOOKING AT THEIR METHOD OF RECOVERY where as everyone can just point a direction. (Even Lucas's is easier because he stays stationary in the air whereas Ness actually falls while using PKT which means IF YOU MISS, you lose a stock guaranteed.)

- 20 FRAMES of Landing lag as opposed to 6 frames that fox and falco has

- Only 1 unit SMALLER than Fox's (Tested in Training Mode)

- More difficult to AIM than Fire Fox, which in turn makes it difficult to CONSISTENTLY sweet spot the ledge

- Has to travel 80-90% of the way for it to be able to edgecancel PROPERLY.

- Projectiles against Ness are EXTREMELY LOW RISK and INCREDIBLY REWARDING when edgeguarding like this stupid thing that can happen: https://gfycat.com/BruisedCapitalAlbacoretuna

- By the way? Imagine Fox trying to shine him while PKT2ing? Yeah, that's possible. Also note, this was in 3.02 where the only change to Ness's recovery was the 20 frames of landing lag: https://gfycat.com/EthicalNarrowAlaskankleekai

Ness has enough problems with his recovery as is, being a more difficult to use Fire Fox and being incredibly easy to punish if Ness is below the stage. Example: https://gfycat.com/LimpPoliticalGrayreefshark

Well, I wouldn't want ness's recovery to be worse, I just don't want it to be as incredibly risky for close-combat fighters, you do have a point, ness has an issue against characters with fast projectiles. I just think that it's more interesting and hype to see more edgeguards that involve going offstage, and ness's odd hitboxes during his recovery. Maybe His PKT2 hitbox should be bigger as to not be gimped (could also go through projectiles as well) as he flies at you for compensation? That way; it's easy to gimp him offstage, but hard to gimp him onstage if he misses the ledge or is close enough to the ground to avoid getting punished for the 20 frames of endlag.

 

[Boiko]

Well, I wouldn't want ness's recovery to be worse, I just don't want it to be as incredibly risky for close-combat fighters, you do have a point, ness has an issue against characters with fast projectiles. I just think that it's more interesting and hype to see more edgeguards that involve going offstage, and ness's odd hitboxes during his recovery. Maybe His PKT2 hitbox should be bigger as to not be gimped (could also go through projectiles as well) as he flies at you for compensation? That way; it's easy to gimp him offstage, but hard to gimp him onstage if he misses the ledge or is close enough to the ground to avoid getting punished for the 20 frames of endlag.

Word of advice, don't go out after Ness unless you can get the jump on him. He's invincible the first seven frames after hitting himself anyway. Just punish the end of it since the hit box is so small when he's traveling you can smack him out of it. If Ness had no startup hitbox, any character would be able to just hang out next to him and hit him immediately... That's dumb.