Dash pivot tilts are easy in pm

[tauKhan]

I noticed today that you can actually do regular turnaround during dash in pm. This means that you can perform pivot ftilts simply by dashing, then moving the stick very slightly past the neutral position and then pressing attack. This is essintially the same as just inputting ftilt during dash, and it will work. If you don't press attack you will do empty pivot. Utilts can be done by pressing slight side slight up, dtilts by slight side to down. It's even easy to do advancing pivot utilt, which is almost impossible in melee. Also you don't have to be frameperfect in any part of the pivot in this game, since you are doing regular turnaround, not dash.

After discovering this tech, I could perform pivot ftilts during matches without any practice with 7/10 consistency.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Is the slightly upwards/downwards still in that zone where it does the pivot before? Otherwise it would be a tiny bit slower? Also the pivot is only possible during initial dash or is there any trick/ am I missing something?

 

[tauKhan]

Yeah you can just press an utilt angle from dash and get it. But utilt is harder to do than ftilt, since upward angled ftilt , jab , and jump inputs all are close to it. Turning tap jump doesn't really help much, because you can still get pivot usmashes instead, but it might help a little. If you don't have tap jump, you can input slightly past middle and then full up and wait for IIRC 3 frames to get utilt. And no, you can do it even if you are past initial dash, but are not running. Running and dashing are different and should never be used interchangeably like some people seem to do here. Dashes are longer in time than initial dash, but dash converts in to run if you hold stick after initial dash. I don't think every player even knows that you can do longer dash dances by releasing stick in the middle of the dashes.

Edit: I'm pretty sure that there is no straight motion that would get you through neutral position to utilt/dtilt position, so those have to be sort of curved or two part motions.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

I luckily have tap jump off so it should be easier
OK, so if I am in the run animation I have to reset it by crouch and then do the tilt.

 

[1FD]

I don't even know what you are talking about is this just normal melee pivots or crouch cancelling your dash like melee or what's going on that's new here?

 

[tauKhan]

What is new here is that in pm the dash "melee" pivots are very easy to perform. In melee you could pivot by doing a smash input to side while in dash, and then inputting an action on the 1 frame of pivot turnaround animation. This means that doing pivot tilts and stops reliably and fast is almost impossible, though a few players did actually manage to do pivot ftilts. In pm you can do a regular turnaround during dash, it doesn't have to be a smash input. Thus you can pretty much input ftilt to do pivot ftilt in pm while in melee you had to do a very precise motion, and frameperfect attack input.

I luckily have tap jump off so it should be easier
OK, so if I am in the run animation I have to reset it by crouch and then do the tilt.

I realized that you have to go through neutral stick position in pm too though, so to perform pivot utilt you got to do a curving motion.

If you are already running you should always use run cancel (crouch out of run) to do anything. If you want to get turnaround moves from run, you can either cancel your crouch into dash and then do this pivot, or walk cancel the crouch and then turnaround.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

So I thought about it and tested a bit...
I think f-tilt is very easy to pull off with this technique, so characters using f-tilt as spacing/pressure (like Ganon, Samus, a few others probably too) should profit.
Up- and down-tilts need to pass through more stick positions, they are a little bit slower though.
Also some b-moves that aren't possible out of dash gain more possibilities, for example some counters.

 

[tauKhan]

Yes ftilt is by far the easiest. I see pivot stops replacing wds with some chars (other than OoS), that have fast dashes like zard. And you can certainly do even pivot utilts without losing frames compared to ftilt, since the movement needed upwards is so little. My brother could do pivot utilts even in melee at like 15%, so you can do the input fast enough.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Yeah. What I forgot mentioning is that if your stick position is slightly diagonal you can also directly jab so jab is as fast as f-tilt. Zard is a very good example because of the high dash speed and the great jab, possible dash away pivot jab is almost always superior to WD options (only if you are not in your shield of course)

 

[1FD]

Um
this is just called pivoting and yeah it's easier in pm but the way you do it has nothing to do with pm exclusive stuff.
It's in melee and what you're talking about the smashing the control stick in directions etc is just a technique for doing it.
The proper way of doing it is analog by exactly what you're describing.
The ROLLING the stick or rather just doing the actual inputs of dashing then turning around and tilting on that single frame.
There are players that do this a lot in melee and some people like bamsey do pivot up tilts and down tilts basically better than anyone can even wavedash lol
And he tells everyone do it analogue even in melee.
In pm there's just no excuse for people to not use pivoting.

This thread is basically just about different techniques for doing melee pivots and which is easier in pm.
But technically they are both easier techniques in pm because pivoting is easier lol

 

[tauKhan]

No, in melee you cannot do slight input turnaround during dash at all. I suspect this works in pm because there is no difference between smash input turnaround and slight input turnaround, unlike in melee. Try it yourself. This threads point is to inform about the technique to do pivots easily, because I have seen no threads explaining itand no one using them in matches. Also players should start doing pm pivots because they are so easy to do. In melee they are too hard to do on reaction imo, except for smashes. You can also dash immediately out of pivot stop, which you couldn't do in melee. In pm pivot stops are better than wds with many chars, And I'm calling it pivoting lol, but in pm I must differentiate it from pm run pivots.

Edit: to test this yourself, in melee, dash left, press start, then hold slightly to right and start again. You'll notice that your character won't turnaround. Do same in pm, and you'll pivot stop.

Edit2:

In pm there's just no excuse for people to not use pivoting.

Precisely the point of this thread.
Also I hope you are not confused what I mean by melee pivoting, I don't think you are but i'll write this anyway. For a long time pivoting meant specifically doing actions during pivot frame of dash. I have however noticed that nowadays commentators call doing turnaround utilt out of waveshine a pivot utilt, or marth doing turnaround utilt from standing position to combo. There has been a lot of this kind of confusion of terms in melee community, which I want to stop, because it seems that some players don't even know the difference between dash and run. In fact

I don't even know what you are talking about is this just normal melee pivots or crouch cancelling your dash like melee or what's going on that's new here?

I think this is a product of mixing up of terms, you don't know what I'm talking about, because you don't seem to use the same definitions for melee things as I. You can never crouch cancel a dash.

Also do you have video evidence of this control stick god bamsey? I looked up some matches of players named bamasey and bamsey, and neither were doing any pivots.

 

[Jarbinks9/11]

Yes, everything is easier in pm, and this fact will stay true no matter how much elitists like strong bad try to deny it and attempt to brainwash people into thinking that its the same as melee. In fact, leisure from tech skill is such a widespread and prominent concept in pm that it should become the slogan and be printed on the logo

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Wow that is some ignorance. While tech skill is obviously much easier there are also new tech skill elements and that "leisure from tech skill" is clearly exaggerated. Might not please some purists that there are more players against whom they have to think/know the matchup. I'd also argue that Melee wasn't made with the intention of being tech-skill-intensive, and while how it turned out is a good thing, still, the tech-skill difficulty was never thought about by the developers. In other words, tech skill got balanced to make other parts of the game more important and not tilt it too much towards one direction.
About Strong Bad, most of his posts about this are just data/facts and true and if he states his opinion he is free to do so and it is by no means "brainwashing", you also have the freedom to disagree but I think "brainwashing" is some insinuation.

 

[1FD]

You can look at anyone from hax to arc to sw for pivot spamming in melee. The stop kind too, pivot aerials and f/u/d smashes are VERY prominent and everyone from cactar to bamsey says its worth learning to do things like pivot dtilt with marth in melee and everyone knows pivot ftilts are completely doable.
Again this thread is just about pivoting, the way to do it isn't any different. It's just easier to do it the PROPER way
The FLICK technique is the technique you're talking about melee players doing where the smash the control stick quickly to turn around and stop etc but it's never been more efficient just a LAZY way of doing it lol
We're on the same page about this whole pivoting thing, but there is some semantics we're discussing here. Like crouch cancelling a dash when I consider there to be the dance part of the dash which is the DD animation and the actual dash but you're calling it a run. so whatever haha
You seem to think analogue pivoting isn't a melee thing but that's I guess what I'm here to bring info about... it IS the proper way of doing melee pivots, and yes its brain-dead easy in pm to do anything
Pivot Falcon kick in the middle of dash dancing for example is really silly and works very effectively more often than it really should haha Totally done with analogue but now it's actually good in pm because the KEEEEEIK rocks

 

[tauKhan]

As I said, doing pivot smashes or jumps is super easy anyway. I'm waiting for video evidence of pivot tilts being used on reaction. I still haven't seen anyone use pivot tilts proficiently, and I watch a lot of melee.
And this is different technique. I will try to explain it to you one more time.
There is at least two different types of turnarounds in melee. One you do by holding side with your control stick or by slight input: This one cannot be done out of dash. The other one is done by smashing the input, and it has slightly different properties and can be done out of dash. So to pivot in melee you need to take advantage of the second one, and since the smash input causes you to dash, unless you release your stick closer to neutral the next frame, it's hard to do. (There might be a very very small zone where you get smash turnaround without dashing.)
In pm, there doesn't seem to be smash input turnarounds, so you can actually slight input turnaround while in dash. This means you don't need to be frameperfect, and it's also very easy to hit anyway. And it's different method to any melee one.

Pivot stops aren't lazy way of pivoting, they can be used as movement method, esp in pm where you can immediately dash out of the pivot.(You cannot dash out of the pivot stop in melee, you have to wait for the turnaround animation to end.)

Run should be differentiated from dash, because you don't have to start running from dash at all. You only start running, if you hold stick after initial dash. If you don't, you'll continue your dash, till the animation ends. Dashes and run also have different properties, you can dash cancel during run, but can't pivot dash.

 

[G13_Flux]

Yes, everything is easier in pm, and this fact will stay true no matter how much elitists like strong bad try to deny it and attempt to brainwash people into thinking that its the same as melee. In fact, leisure from tech skill is such a widespread and prominent concept in pm that it should become the slogan and be printed on the logo

literally the only things that are easier to do are short hops and pivots. theres also a lot of new maneuvers that melee didnt have, like DACUSing (which can be a pretty tricky maneuver), b-reversing, and glide tossing. Maybe a couple things are slightly easier to do frame-wise, but with the addition of so many new techniques, and so many character buffs, there is an indirect increase in the skill cap that can affect the metagame. So many new character specific techniques have shown up that it takes a lot of skill now to implement and use those properly. things like QAC, bomb jumps, DJC projectiles, WL projectiles, and flash shortens are all present that increase the overall difficulty from melee. i would call it a far cry from leisurely..

the only character specific things i can think of that were made easier are samus' super WD, M2s teleport edge hog, and luigis tornado. aside from M2, each of those were reasonable buffs that were needed to contribute to an increase in character metagame. making certain techniques obnoxiously hard just slows and limits the rate at which players can develop new techniques and incorperate them into gameplay. So in the few cases where things were made easier, i think its quite reasonable. the other things still outweigh those however, so implying that this game is made for people who want it easy as opposed to learning tech skill is quite a daring assumption.

 

[NWRL]

Trolls, feeding, etc

 

[Spralwers]

This means that you can perform pivot ftilts simply by dashing, then moving the stick very slightly past the neutral position and then pressing attack. This is essintially the same as just inputting ftilt during dash, and it will work. If you don't press attack you will do empty pivot.

Let's say I wanted to pivot ftilt to the right from a dash to the right.

I smash the control stick to the right to start the dash. Then during the dash animation: I reset the control stick to neutral, I tilt the control stick to the right and press the attack button?

 

[tauKhan]

No, that won't work unfortunately, unless you wait for the whole dash animation to end, and then you do dash cancel ftilt faster. If you want to pivot to right you need to do it from left dash. So to pivot ftilt forward, you need to do a dash forward, dash back and very quickly do pivot ftilt forward. Another option is dash forward -> pivot stop -> walk back -> cancel walk with ftilt forward. Both of these are very difficult to do.

I was wrong, you can't dash back out of pivot stop in pm either.

Anyway, running is super good, and I believe initial dashes are slightly shorter than in melee, so to do advancing moves, always run cancel (dash cancel) them.

 

[Meechman400]

Doing Pivot F-Tilts wasn't even that hard in Melee, lol.

 

[tauKhan]

It is at least for me. My consistency with them is at best 6/10. I also think sheiks and marths would do dash back pivot ftilts, if they were not so hard to do reactively.

 

[1FD]

I think I might understand this better from this post

No, that won't work unfortunately, unless you wait for the whole dash animation to end, and then you do dash cancel ftilt faster. If you want to pivot to right you need to do it from left dash. So to pivot ftilt forward, you need to do a dash forward, dash back and very quickly do pivot ftilt forward. Another option is dash forward -> pivot stop -> walk back -> cancel walk with ftilt forward. Both of these are very difficult to do.

I was wrong, you can't dash back out of pivot stop in pm either.

Anyway, running is super good, and I believe initial dashes are slightly shorter than in melee, so to do advancing moves, always run cancel (dash cancel) them.

Are you saying you can ftilt to the left at the end of a dash to the left?
Kind of like how you can fsmash to the left after dashing to the left by using the cstick that way on a pivot?
If that's the case then cool
If you're just talking about pivot tilts then yeahhhhhhhh...... the only hard ones to do in melee are down and up tilts and even then it's more a lack of meta around it than an actual difficulty to do
6/10 isn't bad if that's where you're at in melee since i was around there until i purposely started spamming it in regular matches
still only probably around 1/10 on up and down tilts but ftilts basically 9/10 times AKA rarely mess that one up if i screw around with it for a few minutes
tech skill is overrated
but thanks for a thread promoting pivoting it's needed and yeah marths who do pivot dtilts non stop if it wasn't unpracticed and unknown to most as something that could be useful
maybe when everyone is done with tripple shining they'll try that kind of tech grinding on pivots

 

[tauKhan]

I think I might understand this better from this post

Are you saying you can ftilt to the left at the end of a dash to the left?
Kind of like how you can fsmash to the left after dashing to the left by using the cstick that way on a pivot?
If that's the case then cool

I meant that you input dash, input neutral before initial dash ends and wait for the whole dash animation to stop. And then ftilt. This has nothing to do with the cstick fsmash pivot which is actual pivot: you dash left, dash right and cstick left. You can technically of course do the advancing pivot tilt, but that is almost impossible.

But more the power to you if you can pivot ftilt in melee I think you were right from the start though: There is two different turnarounds in pm too, the slight one is so slight that its very hard to get. So in other words they made the threshold for smash turnaround much smaller than dash, where in melee they are essentially same. I think this was completely intentional.

Also you can do pivot dtilt a lot easier than pivot ftilts in melee. You can just do a pivot crouch by doing dash input diagonally and rolling it down, and then dtilt.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

@ T tauKhan
Is there an easy way doing a pivot up/down-tilt without doing an empty pivot first. I don't think there are stick positions for these moves that do a pivot, I normally get a tournaround or crouch then.
And is it possible to act out of empty pivot animation instantly?
Pivot f-tilts work great btw.

 

[tauKhan]

I haven't found any shortcut to u/dtilt. I just do a sort of circling motion from side to center -> down/up. You can do any attacks, grab, special except neutral b, jump and shield from empty pivot straight away. You can't crouch or dash straight away. The turn isn't very long animation though.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

OK thank you for answering my questions

 

[tauKhan]

I found out that turn input works differently when done upwards rather than downwards. You don't have to go through neutral to pivot if you input upwards angle. You can pivot by going straight from side to up and slightly to other side. This means that if you have tap jump off you can easily pivot uptilt just by inputting the correct angle.

I never tested this before because I assumed that the pivot input would work symmetrically.

 

[Juushichi]

You can do dash pivots simply by using the "KOF input", dunno if you mentioned it before, but that was the easiest way for me to conceptualize it.

(Facing Right) >>>>
7 8 9
4 5 6
1 2 3

Dash Pivot (66->3->2->1->4)
Forward -> Down-Forward -> Down -> Down-Back -> Back

Dash Pivot Dtilt (66->3->2->1->4) | Shift to and end at position 1 on the Control Stick.
Forward -> Down-Forward -> Down -> Down-Back -> Back | End in Down-Back (+ Attack)

Dash Pivot Utilt (66->3->2->1->4) | Shift to and end at position 7 on the Control Stick.
Forward -> Down-Forward -> Down -> Down-Back -> Back | End in Up-Back (+ Attack)

Naturally, this assumes that you dash first--- which in (anime) FG terms means inputting 66 on the stick to initiate the dash.

It's a bit esoteric, but I think I might have explained it well enough.

 

[tauKhan]

@ Juushichi

I tested that method. You seem to be describing how to do run cancel turnaround tilts, or that's at least what I got trying to follow your instructions.

Are we talking about the same technique? This thread is about doing smash turn tilts from dash, not from run. I can't do a turn during initial dash to right after moving stick to downleft notch.

 

[Juushichi]

Ah, yeah. My bad then.

 

[Foxy K]

Whenever I try to do that pivot utilt tech, smashes come out. Halp?

 

[Chesstiger2612]

You have to go in the stick zone where you would walk first and then input attack. You probably move the stick still when inputting the attack, think of a faster stick movement that stops before you input attack.
Another possbility is that you haven't pressed far enough to the sides but from the problems you get the first problem seems more likely.

 

[Foxy K]

You have to go in the stick zone where you would walk first and then input attack. You probably move the stick still when inputting the attack, think of a faster stick movement that stops before you input attack.
Another possbility is that you haven't pressed far enough to the sides but from the problems you get the first problem seems more likely.

Thanks for your help. I read through the thread a little more and I think it's a combination of not going through neutral (like you said) and not waiting the three frames to make it a tilt. My stick isn't sensitive enough to just stop on a light input, it's too hard.

 

[tauKhan]

Whenever I try to do that pivot utilt tech, smashes come out. Halp?

I think it's best to press slightly side and fully up (tap jump off) and just delay the attack input a bit, I guess 3 frames. To do frame perfect utilt with control stick, you would need to hit very precise up and side co-ordinates with the stick to 1) pivot, 2) utilt instead of ftilt 3) avoid upsmash input.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Not exactly a pivot tilt but also on the topic of pivots:
Pivot platform drops actually seem like a good thing, its more efficient than dashing back and shield dropping backwards or similar choices...
Application is surely there: For example, as MK main I often do platform autoland nairs and now after a pivot platform drop nair edgecancel ledgegrab I am covering pretty much all recovery options that build on recovering fast. Also it might be helpful in extending combos because with a standard shield drop you might not bring in bairs as efficiently, for example with Falco.

Is there any way to make it easier? For my concrete example I can keep holding attack after the nair and then c-stick down immediately after the pivot, then let the attack button go and continue normally.
Not all setups contain these attacks before and going from a pivot to a drop position can take some time, possibly shield dropping after the pivot might help because there you needn't go through neutral and you can aim at an edge of the octagon shape.

 

[tauKhan]

I didn't know that pivot platform drops exist, thank you! I think it's very useful indeed, especially as pivot shielding is harder in pm, because roll isn't disabled during turn. The pivot drop also lets you conserve your dash momentum, so you can do retreating aerials from pivot drops if you are on a platform above your opponent.

My method for pivot dtilt results in platform drop, so I'm surprised I never noticed this myself. The pivot dtilt isn't too hard to do so that's probably going to be my method for the dash pivot drop. Another method that comes to mind is doing the c-stick pivot slide into drop.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Under which conditions how much of the dash momentum is conserved? I probably did it too slow, I guess you need to drop before going in empty pivot animation (?)

 

[tauKhan]

It doesn't, you're right.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

OK I was already worried my Dolphin was bugged in which case 90% of my testing and like 100 posts would be unviable ^^
Either way, its pretty easy to input a direction for the standard horizontal air mobility afterwards and not having the dash momentum has the advantage of being able to go to the other direction more easily

 

[Chesstiger2612]

One thing I noticed, if you do an empty pivot and jump before the animation ends you will still have the initial direction.
If you want to change the direction you have to do a dash back jump
Was pressing jump too early...