DA MINDGRAINES: an Overview of Mindgames<----a post the doesn't suck.

[g-regulate]

This post might be a little lengthy, so bear with me, this could be the post that turns your smash game around FOREVER!

I've come to a conclusion that there are many good smashers out there now. There are many smashers who have excelled in technical skill and have an in-depth knowledge of the game. But only a select few are considered elite, the few that place high at every tourney and can make a great smasher look silly. I notice that most smashers can do all the things that the high tourney-placers can, so why don't they ever win? It is solely due to the Mindgames. I'm convinced that good mindgames are what separate the great players from the best. I hope that this thread can help smashers that have great technical technique, but lack that extra something to get them victories.

Mindgames cannot really be defined; there are infinite variables as to how mindgames work. It's more than just "tricking your opponent into being where you want them". It's an application of technical skill, mixed with predictions of how your opponent will react. It begins to be less of a prediction, and more of a manipulation of your opponent.

Mindgames are created by you and are formed from your opponent. It exposes a weakness in your opponent to take advantage of, but don’t think of it like that. Don’t think you’re exposing a weakness, think of it as creating a weakness. These creations give you style, giving you not just an advantage that you character has, but an advantage that YOU have created, an advantage that only YOUR style of play can pull off.

A simple wavedash backwards during an opponents attack/grab? mindgame. A running empty short-hop? mindgame. Anytime your opponent expects you to do something or be somewhere, and you aren’t? Successful mindgame. Anytime you expect someone to do something, and they do? Successful mindgame.

The things you do, affect how your opponent moves, therefore, the things you do can manipulate where your opponent will be at given times. Knowing what your opponent is doing and where he is doing it, can open up virtually any option of attack. Find the most effective option, and like magic, you are a great player . Let me give a familiar example.

So you’re a falcon playing a fox on FD. You begin grabbing to dthrow, whereas usually the fox will tech either way or in place. SO, tech chasing commences, pretty standard falcon strategy. But this is where mindgames come in. tech chase and grab a few times, and your opponent is thinking "every time I tech, I continue to get grabbed, so how do I get out of this?” So this fox tries to switch it up, so he won’t get grabbed yet again, and DOESN’T tech. With some quick reaction time and technical skill, you put in a knee when he’s on the ground, not teching. Fox flies off the stage and dies.

There's an example of a simple mindgame. Tech chasing enabled fox to choose not to tech, which opened up a knee for you. Your applications of tech skill made your opponent make a potential mistake, where it's your job to take advantage.

Another example: Marth has many grab-throw-hit combos that can be DI'ed out of. fthrow-fsmash can be deadly on some, but when DI'ed it can be avoided. dthrow and bthrow can also lead to smashes, but can be DI'ed/Teched. a good player knows his DI, and will usually DI out of such simple combos. Unfortunately for him, he cannot DI more than one way. DI'ing away from the fthrow, is the same as DI'ing toward the bthrow. a good alternation between throws can make an opponent’s one wrong DI into a KO. Once again, tech skill opening up opportunities for KO's.

Don’t let these examples limit you, for they are just a taste of MANY things you can do against all smashers. I know the examples were mostly centered around grabs and don’t cover everything, but grabbing/tech chasing/etc. can be a huge asset in your own mindgames. Remember, there is no one way to play that just beats everyone, it’s all a different collaboration of mindgames that are used on each opponent. All high-level smashers pull off wicked combos that are inescapable and wow us all, but how do they start? Some form of mindgame that sets it up.

the post is kind of directed towards people who really have a great sense of technical skill. if you play against people who do not have a good sense of technical skill, you can depend less on mindgames, and more on taking advantage of the mistakes they make. (i.e. people who dont l-cancel, etc.). If YOU yourself could use some work on the technical stuff a bit, mindgames should help your game a lot more, especially when you play against people will a lot of tech skill (People with great tech skill rarely make mistakes, so you have to make them make mistakes). BUT REMEMBER, great tech skill is what makes your mind games come to life. the better your tech skill is, the more options you have towards getting the edge on your opponent.

Concentrate on making mindgames more apparent in your game. It’s taken me months to realize that even with near perfect tech skill, you still suck without mindgames. I hope that this helped a person or two, I know and have played a lot of you smashers that are mad good, but just seem to be missing something when it gets to be late in the tourney. I’ll try and fix this post up a bit too when I get the chance. Post your own thoughts/strategies about your mindgames, or mindgames in general. Thanks!

 

[AlphaZealot]

Good post. I think what separates mid level smashers from high level smashers is mindgames (not tech skill), and what further separates high level smashers from the smash elite is just...amazing mindgames.

I might add the "MindGames" definition to the compendium, if I do I'll prob put a link to this post.

 

[Vall3y]

whoa, thats very nice, i never though of mind games in that way ;o

 

[ronin899]

wow,great post.really opened my eyes.

 

[Vir_Iratus]

This is exactly the kind of topic that helps people improve their game... good job G-reg... Its hard to describe how you play out your mind games... because like you said, there are near infinite combinations and variables... when you play chess against a computer, you can memorize the moves that make it lose to you every time... but a human can learn from mistakes and compensate for his failures next time around... The best way IMO is to keep them guessing... In some cases, the game can play out like Rock Paper Scissors, like with the Marth situation you described... He might throw left OR right... and depending on which way he throws will determine if you get wasted or spared... I find that the most effective way to throw my opponent off is by switching up my style regularly between defensive to offensive and vice versa... and within each style I have several different tactics I use... example, I'm playing marth, I might run up to my opponent, and instead of following through with an attack, I stop... In most cases, by that point my opponent has initiated an attack, and is now open, so I strike... As much as people hate the idea of "camping" it is still an effective tool... Now I don't mean the type of camping thats being talked about in that other Thread about "Rethinking Smash" but rather, the action of stopping completely and letting your opponent make the next move... If you stop observing your own character in order to watch your opponent, you can make their efforts weaknesses... A good way to help improve your game is to watch videos of people like Ken, who have mastered mechanics and nearly perfected mind games... Put yourself in their position and see if you can find things you would have done differently... when they fail at a recovery, think through what options they had, and see if you could have found something that would have turned the tides... I have never seen Ken Counter... and I think thats a fault, because there were times when I saw him recovering, and on his way back, he was intercepted by a falcon knee... had Ken countered, Falcon would have been thrown back, and he could have recovered in time to fight some more instead of losing a stock... Things like Dash Dancing are really effective, even for players like Ken... I think I've seen him fake someone out at least twice in one match by doing nothing but dash dance... Anyway... thats my small contribution...

 

[KM-013]

thats a **** fine post.

 

[Sm00th_Crim1nal]

Not to be stupid, but in my opinion Mind Game is an abused term. It has so many different meannings and uses, it has become muddled and confusing. I agree that mind games can really help your game and put you a step above, but I just don't think that random stuff you do can be called a game defining technique. At most an out of place short hop is a gimmick :/. Well that's just my thinking, great post anyway .

 

[Sideem Slingh]

I've been thinking about this a lot too. I don't get much practice against humans, so my mindgames are inferior at best. This didn't open my eyes as much as confirm my beliefs. Very nice thinking.

 

[KM-013]

hey smooth criminal, stfu ive seen ur vids and they have bad rock music in them.

 

[Kyari]

Interesting. =). Tech skill doesn't seem to be the hard part anymore, and so a lot of smashers are just sort of hovering between newbishness and fame because they are inexperienced and haven't had a lot of time to teach themselves through tournaments what you just explained. Although smashers still need tournament experience to be really good, this sort of thing tells people to think a little more about why they're doing what they're doing during a fight, and this could accelerate the skill-building process for many people.

 

[jonnobigz]

I have never played anyone, uh, "Good", before (they're all friends who don't really play it much. They want to know what a DI is and how to do it... Also, they thinks FireFox is the best move in the game...), so I have never really had experience playing other people, only the mentally challenged level 9s. I really understand your guide, as it is really good and easy to understand, but my response is very similar to Sideem.

 

[g-regulate]

the post is kind of directed towards people who really have a great sense of technical skill. if you play against people who do not have a good sense of technical skill, you can depend less on mindgames, and more on taking advantage of the mistakes they make. (i.e. people who dont l-cancel, etc.). If YOU yourself could use some work on the technical stuff a bit, mindgames should help your game a lot more, especially when you play against people will a lot of tech skill (People with great tech skill rarely make mistakes, so you have to make them make mistakes). BUT REMEMBER, great tech skill is what makes your mind games come to life. the better your tech skill is, the more options you have towards getting the edge on your opponent.

EDIT: actually ill just throw this in there

 

[RyokoYaksa]

What about the very basic example of a dash attack vs. a dash grab?

 

[KM-013]

be near the edge, back throw someone, theyll prolly tech roll toward u so grab em again. good stuff.

 

[Sm00th_Crim1nal]

hey smooth criminal, stfu ive seen ur vids and they have bad rock music in them.

I'm sorry that my post completely made a vandetta against you, but that is just the way I think. And why you brought out my taste in music is totally irrelavant and shows how much you had to throw at me .

 

[Kratos_Aurion]

That's a pretty awesome post, and great perspective on Smash. Like one of those guys above me (sorry, I can't remember!) I don't get a lot of practice against humans. But fake outs and pattern breaking could very well be a part of my game I've been neglecting due to the same tatics working against CPU opponents EVERY TIME YOU PLAY. I need a crew, seriously...

 

[KM-013]

I'm sorry that my post completely made a vandetta against you, but that is just the way I think. And why you brought out my taste in music is totally irrelavant and shows how much you had to throw at me .

no jones son, mm $50000000000

 

[Sm00th_Crim1nal]

no jones son, mm $50000000000

ok but only if pichu ditto

 

[kabloodysun]

great post i always find it hard to play mind games with the puffinator but you really cleard up the defintion for me thanks

 

[PhillCollins]

Well I had about 4 paragraphs of substinance here before smashboards went down so I'm just gonna give the short version.

You have to play with intuition during you're matches. Comming up with mind games and such at times when its not important that you win is fine, but during an actual match you can't be trying to devise complex manuvres and such. You need to focus on your opponet.

 

[KM-013]

^thats not really true i dont think. while tech chasing, etc, its KIND OF a game of rock paper scissors, and you have to guess what theyre gonna do and do stuff accordingly (although in some cases you can just dashdance around and follow thier tech either way). you can call that intuition if you want, but everyone but the really good players continue to tech the same ways and keep getting grabbed. the good players will stop teching or at least try to fake them out by DI'ing one way and teching the other. if you guys dont accept and use mindgames, you will NEVER be able to beat someone good who uses them. are you just gonna run into people and try and get them into combos? doesnt work. one good example is running up to someone, shielding, and waiting for them to sidestep dodge, then grabbing. thats a mindgame, its just basic, but its also effective. force them to do something and capitalize, no jones son.

 

[g-regulate]

one of my favorites that everyone does to me, is go up for an attack, and instead of attacking, just walk right past them when they usually shield, and smash the other direction when youre behind them and they're grabbing/letting off shield. i tell myself how stupid i am when it happens but most good EC players do that **** and its effective.

 

[Cyphus]

wether its my friends, stranger noobs, or even some really good players at FC3....i seem to have a nack from backwards WDing into a F.Smash from their roll by a corner. I can't boast alot in many categories..but i will say someone how i've developed a keen sense of prediction and a...natural play style that influences them to get owned as so.

Its a simple mindgame...but i find it fascinating how it seems to work more than it should(even against some more well-known smashers i fought at FC3, i was shocked how many times it worked)

You see..normally its about chasing techs...............then it evolves into them not teching, at which point i WD into a shield grab from their 'get-up attack'.(if they roll i just WD grab them)
Of course that annoys them, and when i do an unsuccessful finisher that causes them to land not far from the ledge, and they see me move in, they are already expecting that shield grab into an immediate finisher into the deathzone. Of course at which point theny choose toroll instead into the backWD-F.Smash.
I mean...sometimes i feel so confident in that rare situation..i'll even charge the F.Smash half a second, sure of myself what will happen.

but uh..yea...ya'll are lucky i'm too lazy to bore ya'll w/ more commond mindgames i do

 

[Lanowen]

I am not sure if this was mentioned, but what about verbal mindgames? Where you actually play with the person like saying stuff like 'awww, too bad that didn't work' or 'haha, nice try there. Maybe it will work if you try it again ^^' and stuff like that? I think that some stuff may irritate the person, and make them fustrated, which in turn should make them make mistakes. Just a thought though.

 

[KM-013]

^no, because thats stupid and douchey.

 

[Sho-Ryu-Ken]

From what I've noticed the difference between greatest of players and others is not solely mind games, it simply comes down to extreme accuracy and cutting off your opponent's options.

Forgive the example, but if you see a video with Ken playing, he's not short hopping with nothing or wavedashing this or that, he's slashing his opponent, and most(or even all) of his hits make contact. That racks up the damage and puts him at a greater advantage than his opponent, thus winning him the game.

 

[Vir_Iratus]

From what I've noticed the difference between greatest of players and others is not solely mind games, it simply comes down to extreme accuracy and cutting off your opponent's options.

Forgive the example, but if you see a video with Ken playing, he's not short hopping with nothing or wavedashing this or that, he's slashing his opponent, and most(or even all) of his hits make contact. That racks up the damage and puts him at a greater advantage than his opponent, thus winning him the game.

You must not be watching him very closely... look again... several of his hits DON'T land... You're trying to bring the focus back on the mechanics of the game, which we've been discussing is not everything... The reason so many of his hits DO land is because he messes with his opponents brain... he plays mind games, creates a weakness in his opponent, then strikes... and usually that will lead into even higher combos and more accuracy... but the fact remains... he is a great player and has learned how to play defensively, offensively, and mentally... Sure, knowing the mechanics helps, but knowing how to beat a player mentally is like a multiplier of your skill. Somebody with less technical skills can beat a player with higher technical skills if they can use mind games effectively... its all been said for the most part... just read through it again and keep in mind that the better players are the ones who can manipulate their opponents the best... Watch some more Ken videos and pay close attention to what his actions do for him and to the opponent... not just swinging and hitting... but faking out and other such tactics...

 

[meepxzero]

mind games varies differently with what cahracter u use dont compare everything with how ken plays. hes got the best mind games wit marth by far but i dunno bout his other characters. Marths gameplay is to just completely shutdown the opponents options playing and make them completely helpless at times. At this point people completely forget the lag in a lot of his attacks because when marths at the top of his game hope seems so inevitable. Then there are characters like peach where they are just god**** impossible to kill with proper diing, which is a mindgame in itself because it just starts to piss u off wondering why she wont die. BUt yah funniest mindgame against nubs is to just run at them after u die and see them roll then smash the opposite direction . I still have a habit of doing this myself but its just to funny.

 

[Vir_Iratus]

Theres nothing wrong with using Ken's Marth... typically, though, when you can play as well with Marth as Ken does, you probably also have a firm grasp of other characters strategies, since hes obviously played his fair share of opponents... It helps to know all of your opponents possibilities, which Ken obviously does, not so you can play as them, but so you can beat them... Theres more to the game than just knowing how your character can be played... I read character guides for all of the characters because it helps me mold a strategy for taking it down... Ken could probably play any other character very well... but he doesn't have to in order to prove hes good at mind games... beating all the other characters can prove that too...

 

[KM-013]

shoryuken-ken has the best mind games. thats why all of his hits connect.

 

[g-regulate]

yea man ken doesnt just run around swingin his sword and magically *****, im sure he places all his hits, based on where you are and what youre doing. doing any set of attacks with any character to technical perfection doesnt mean **** if you dont know when to use it. playing someone who has good mindgames makes it harder for you to land attacks, because you cant predict what they will do, so how can you hit them? nobody just walks into your combos, you have to make them cough up.

 

[PhillCollins]

You have to mind game, but your mind games must be as much a part of you're reflexes as your tech skills. Even chess players play with intuition and they have at lot longer ot make their moves than we do.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Technical skill is very important, but it definitely takes a back seat role to mindgames. Another important aspect is being able to read your opponent which goes right back to mind games. Knowing your opponent means knowing what particular mindgames will break down their defenses and allow you to take control of the match. At the highest level of play you will often see less wavedashing and less insane combos simply because there are other safer methods that are just as effective.
I personally need to make more of an effort to be less of a show off when I play my Marth. I'm sure that happens to alot of smashers though. They work hard to become extremely technical and master fancy dashdancing and wavedancing but as they gain more experience they realize that kind of play isn't always smart or that effective. Thats when many start to play at a more basic level only wavedashing and such when absolutely necessary.
Ken plays this way as well. Only using his insane wavedashing/ technical skill when he feels its totally necessary. But he still wins tournies due to his incredible mindgames and ability to read his foes.

 

[Blind]

It's unfair to say that either takes a back seat to the other. You might say that calculus is higher than algebra and arithmatic and therefore more important, but if you don't understand fundamentals how can you expect to perform at "higher" levels? But just because I can do all the combos, I still have to connect and space them, and if my opponent can read me like a book with 50 point font and lots of pictures, then I'm screwed. Mind gaming is the higher "form," but tech skill becomes the foundation for it; without one another, they are both limited in how far you can get. They are both important, and balance between the two is even more important.

Mind games are crucial, and hugely important, but so is technical skill. Even the really good players can be overwhelmed by somebody who is just plain FAST. When your skill has developed, speedy play seems to slow down and everything becomes clearer to you, but there is little "outhinking" you can do against your opponent if you can't even keep track of his moves, let alone predict them. Falco is so strong as a character largely because of his overwhelming tactics; even though you may more or less KNOW he's going to SHL into drill into shine, if he's doing it properly you don't get much of a chance to respond. The most skilled players, therefore, can play even at terribly high speeds without being confused by all the action on screen. That is when mind gaming becomes important.

This has particular importance to me because even though I'm usually good at reading my opponent, I tend to crack under pressure and my tech skill goes out the window. Despite the fact that I know what my opponent will do, sometimes my fingers won't just let me respond and I can still lose quite easily. But if I were playing perfectly yet unable to predict my opponent, I would probably be stuck in the same boat.

 

[mastershake45]

hello is anione here plz

 

[Emblem Lord]

I definitely get what you are saying and please believe when I say that I dont think mindgames<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< technical skill. I am more then aware of the fact that tech skill lay's the foundation for mind games. Its just that mind games always seem to be the final push for victory in my matchs so I rate them as slightly more important then tech skill. Remember this is all IMO. Thank you for the very informative response though, I really appreciate it.

 

[EdreesesPieces]

To me technical skill is pretty easy. You can master a characters moves and special techniques in training mode in an hour or two, but learning how to place them all and finding where to use them and how to force your opponent into the move would take months or even years of practice and mindgames.

for example i learned how to waveshine and drillshine in a day or two with fox, i can do it in training mode without error. however my fox sucks, why because i dont know any mind games with him, hehe. I can beat noobs with it really easily, and sometimes people who are near my level, but when i want to beat someone who's pretty **** good i get owned and its not surprising.

great post (original post) totally agree.

 

[Vir_Iratus]

I can see where both of you are coming from... but continuing with the Math Analogy... Calculus IS technically harder to master than Algebra... Both of them are guided by the same set of rules we know as math... but Algebra is just an introduction to the inner workings of math... Calculus is extremely hard to master, but once you know it... it makes All the "hard" parts of Algebra extremely easy... Now, Applying this analogy to Smash... Its easier to look at the technical moves and attacks and go "Oh... I see... so when I TAP the control stick and the A button, I perform a stronger attack..." You can learn and perform all the basic moves, attacks, and some of the lower level combos with ease... But then you have to know when to use them... a button masher might hit his opponent every once in a while, and pick up a few tricks here and there... but someone who has learned how to actually USE those moves in an effective manner has taken the game to another level... At this point, you can pretty much assume that everyone you play will have that lower level of understanding of Smash, so now its up to the players to delve deep into the inner workings of the game and learn how to manipulate it so that they give themselves the advantage... This is where the mind games come into play... Since the rules of the game are set in stone, the players have to trick each other into letting the mechanics of the game give them the upper hand... Once thats done, THEN the execution of technical skills comes into play... both mind games and technical skills are important... but without the ability to play the mind game, a technical player won't be able to use his moves effectively because his opponent will be keeping him from ever gaining an advantage... It reminds me a lot of Chess... Knowing how to predict moves and see where your opponent is going with everything really helps you to prevent checkmate, or in Smash, getting KO'd... Ok... I think I've used enough analogous speech to drown a fish... I'm stopping there... hope it helps some peeps...

 

[Emblem Lord]

Vir Iratus: Glad to see a more experienced board member actually agrees with me and sees my point of view. (At least thats what I got from reading your post). It makes me feel like less of a noob to know that someone like you can understand my perspective.

 

[omegablackmage]

ya this is why some people are starting to switch to lower tier characters. Tech skill might be great and all but being able to surprise your opponent with new characters is better. A character might have a lot of setbacks, but these all dissapear with good mindgames. Soon enough tiers will be gone and it will be just good people playin with whomever they like as a character, not just who has the best techs. Most people don't think the icy's are very good but chu does good, neo's roy?, aob's dk, all are just examples. Id love to see the day when there isn't a tournament spammed with marths, sheiks, peaches, and foxes. When people play for the mindgames and not the tech skill. Knowing your characters techs are important too, don't get me wrong.