Custom Move Mechanics and Matchup Discussion

[thephilluminati]

I know there's already the Custom Move presets discussion which overlaps more than tangentially with what what I'm discussing here, but that thread's been inactive for more than a week and seems more focused on loadouts than individual moves. In my own words, I'd say that thread is about arguing if a certain move is viable, whereas this one is more about when.

You see, as I'm sure you know as a fellow Robin boards viewer/poster, the "best" Robin set is the default. That's not to say that all of Robin's custom moves are useless (well, maybe the Elwind variants are), but that Robin doesn't have anything like Pikachu's Heavy Skull Bash or DK's Kong Cyclone - powerful, safe moves that straight up outclass the default. Robin's customs are more playstyle/matchup dependent. Her best customs open up options that are otherwise impossible, but in turn they will often close some of her most powerful options in a default scenario. I want to develop a better understanding of what you gain and lose from any particular custom move.

To start off, I thought I'd give my own observations from my frequently but admittedly not top-level play:

Neutral Specials

• Thunder - The big reason I've found I want to run normal thunder over the other variants is versatility. When you run normal thunder, all 4 charge levels really are completely different attacks with completely different uses. Thunder gives a quick midrange shock. Elthunder is still pretty fast while doing a good chunk of damage. Arcthunder holds the opponent in place allowing for crazy followups. And Thoron kills the earliest, does a ridiculous amount of damage, while having probably one of the largest not final smash hitboxes in the game. The main weakness this move has is it really telegraphs your battle strategy, especially if you charge all the way up to Thoron, though this weakness can also be a strength - I can't tell you how many times I've charged up a Thoron against a high percent opponent basically to make them offguard for Levin Sword anything.
• Thunder+ - The classic speed for power trade, this is probably my least favorite neutral special. If you charge all the way up to Thoron, you kill even earlier while having an even bigger more ridiculously damaging hitbox, which is awesome. The issue is it's impossible to really stop landings and approaches with this move in the same way as the other Thunder variants, so I feel like most of the time I'm getting good use out of this it's because I'm facing an opponent too stupid to force me to zone with Thunder. Additionally, since it goes through tome uses at double the speed and comes out slower, it's a nightmare in any kind of battle where you need to trade projectiles. In my experience, though, it's a pretty incredible move, I'm just not sure when where is best to use it.
• Speed Thunder - I use this one a little more, though it definitely always feels like a pricey tradeoff. You get the one thing Robin needs more than anything - speed - at the cost of a lot of the utility that Arcthunder's followups and Thoron's kills/damage buildup offer. The speed's definitely a lot more than nothing, though. And while Thoron's not really a good kill move anymore, it still has a ridiculous hitbox, decent damage, and crazy priority that goes through most other projectiles (is it transcendent?). This is great against spammy characters and characters fast enough to punish normal Thunder charge times from across the stage. The main thing I miss with this move is the grab and levin sword setups that the normal arcthunder allows for, making Robin even more of a "trading blows" type character than before.

Side Specials

• Arcfire - Most of the time, I'm pretty sure this is the version you want to run. The lingering hitboxes it leaves behind after hitting the ground/an opponent would be masochistic if Robin was a little faster. It's has a weird angle which makes it great offensive pressure from the air on grounded opponents. I could probably talk for days about how incredible this move is, but you've got all the Robin board for that. Of course, though, the move has plenty of issues - tons of start up and ending lag, as well as angle that can just as often leave your face totally open to ground based assaults. That said, like the default thunder this move is so versatile it's while you can cover up some of the above weaknesses with another special, you will definitely miss some of the opportunities this one sets up.
• Arcfire+ - Same move as above, without the lingering hitbox after it hits something, with move lag. I think most Robin players agree this move isn't worth it, though I've heard a little bit from the moveset thread and around the internet that this can be a good Anti-Luma move against Rosalina. I don't have any experience there, though, so I'd be interested to hear why this might be the case.
• Firewall - This move is so promising but has a couple fatal flaws that keep it from being the standard I'd like it to be. The good here is that compared to regular arcfire, this move is fast and closes up the area right in front of you very well. This is amazing since while many fast characters use regular arcfire as an excuse to run up and grab and combo you, they are stopped in the same situation by Firewall. Additionally, while this move comes out right in front of you on the ground, you throw it down at a very steep angle from the air, so it's good for covering your landing, when Robin is usually especially vulnerable. The main issue with this move though has to do with something I realized yesterday - it's not a projectile. If you use this move in the air, the Firewall doesn't activate until it hits the ground, which is a huge disadvantage compared to the regular arcfire, and a huge pity. With that steep downward angle, if Firewall was a projectile it could really be useful in a lot of the situations you'd want to use Elwind as an attack in, and help even more in matchups like vs. Diddy where you really have almost no options coming down from up high. Still, very usable and cool special, just not quite the move it could be for silly reasons.

Up Specials

• Elwind - I don't think there's a lot to say here. Elwind's decent recovery that can be a fun downward projectile, though it's pretty much useless as such on stage since it leaves you in helpless. Off stage it's a sweet spike, though practically I usually end up using Dair more often (though Elwind does come out faster). Not the best or worst recovery in the game, I think I agree with the other thread I wouldn't really use the other specials here.
• Gliding Elwind - Of the two custom elwinds, this seems the most interesting because of the weird angle Robin fires out the first shot with. Makes me think it could be a useful out of shield option, but the loss in vertical height makes me reluctant to really want to use it.
• Soaring Elwind - Since from what I can tell Arcfire+ actually has some situational use, I think Soaring Elwind wins the competition for most awkward and useless custom move. I feel dirty and unnatural trying to recover with this thing.

Down Specials

• Nosferatu - This move basically lets me know how much of a noob I'm facing. If I'm facing a good player, I attempt this move 3 times, screw it up, do it a fourth time for the book, and miss the book. If I'm facing a bad player I can spam this thing to stay below 20% the whole match. More seriously, I think this move is better than I give it credit for - it's only a bit laggier than Robin's regular grab, the damage and healing is good, and the breathing room it gives you is even better.
• Distant Nosferatu - That said, I've been really enjoying trying out the customs because it helps make up for tight spacing of the regular variant. This one spaces perfectly to catch opponents when they instinctually shield Arcfire/Thunder. The healing isn't as good, but the novelty of being able to punish shields from a distance is pretty awesome.
• Goetia - This one's the most intriguing one I've used the least. The loss of healing is really unappealing, but since the hitboxes for the other variants are so fidgety I'm intrigued by the larger range of this version. Better to land the attack and heal nothing than not use it at all, right? Really interested in hearing opinions one way or another hear.

I'm especially interested in other people's thoughts about matchups. For example, I'm having trouble figuring out which set works best for Diddy - the speed of Firewall and Speed Thunder seems is great for combatting rushdown, but without the defaults I don't have the tools to slow Diddy down and create guaranteed setups. For that reason, I think for a lot of matchups with faster characters it might be best to run one of Speed Thunder and Firewall, and leave the other as default, but I'm still not sure which works better for when. It's hard to figure out because naturally Robin's default moves all seem to link together, while the customs can disrupt the flow. This also might be a playstyle though.

Anyways, these are my thoughts generally on each move individually. I think by and large Robin has uses for most of her custom moves, it just depends a lot more on character/stage/player than other characters. I think this might be part of the reason we perceive default to be the best set right now - we all have the most experience using that set, and the custom versions of each special are different enough that you have to change up your playstyle to match. That said, I think in turn if we learn the ins and outs of these moves a little better, we really do have a best case scenario for Robin in terms of custom moves, where set viability has more to do with playstyle and matchup knowledge than with figuring out which particular move is the best.

Cheers!

 

[Douglas Jay Ganon]

Amazing analysis. Good work.

My personal thoughts is that normal is the best, but if I had to choose customs, I'd do another analysis.

's customs are quite underwhelming compared to his normal specials if you play him like you're playing with normal specials. You need to change your playstyle. It's still a space-saving character, who tries to get the opportunity to strike with his Levin Sword and do tons of damage. Some examples here:

-I'd choose quick thunder and distant nosferatu (Ciénaga, at least in Spanish). With this, I'd focus on having always the arcthunder charged. If I hit, I'd use the Ciénaga to have a good stylish HP steal. Also, this is perfect for edgeguarding. You get him with a quick arcthunder and you can steal his hp in the ledge or try a cool meteor.

-Quick thunder and Goethia (maybe Bolganona also). With this the edgeguard is your sweet objective. Arcthunder the enemy while he tries to recover, and if you have the right angle, you could fire the bolganona to kill him early (75~85%).
Also, the goethia (I've tested it with some friends) it's quite good for edguarding! Agains characters like Luigi, Falcon(dorf), Fox, Falco and Jigglypuff it's quite good, because it absorbs them before touching the ledge, making some sweet gimps.

-Thunder+-, firewall and Gliding Elwind. With this set your objective is to hit the big thoron. You have your firewall on your defense, and the gliding elwind is a cool escape method if you reverse it (don't spam it too much tho).

But I still think that normal Robin it's the best. His customs are cool if you play it for the lols, and can work really well if you master them.

 

[ARGHETH]

I know there's already the Custom Move presets discussion which overlaps more than tangentially with what what I'm discussing here, but that thread's been inactive for more than a week and seems more focused on loadouts than individual moves. In my own words, I'd say that thread is about arguing if a certain move is viable, whereas this one is more about when.

Lol I spent an entire page arguing about Goetia's viability but sure. The other one is intended for general custom move discussion, though.

You see, as I'm sure you know as a fellow Robin boards viewer/poster, the "best" Robin set is the default. That's not to say that all of Robin's custom moves are useless (well, maybe the Elwind variants are), but that Robin doesn't have anything like Pikachu's Heavy Skull Bash or DK's Kong Cyclone - powerful, safe moves that straight up outclass the default. Robin's customs are more playstyle/matchup dependent.

That means it isn't the best, but one of the best options. Robin's better customs are more sidegrades than up/downgrades.

• Thunder - The big reason I've found I want to run normal thunder over the other variants is versatility. When you run normal thunder, all 4 charge levels really are completely different attacks with completely different uses. Thunder gives a quick midrange shock. Elthunder is still pretty fast while doing a good chunk of damage. Arcthunder holds the opponent in place allowing for crazy followups. And Thoron kills the earliest, does a ridiculous amount of damage, while having probably one of the largest not final smash hitboxes in the game. The main weakness this move has is it really telegraphs your battle strategy, especially if you charge all the way up to Thoron, though this weakness can also be a strength - I can't tell you how many times I've charged up a Thoron against a high percent opponent basically to make them offguard for Levin Sword anything.

The thing is, Elthunder is quick enough to do its job, but Thunder...isn't really. Also Thoron doesn't kill the earliest, Arcthunder does. (130/140 iirc)

Thoron+'s a pretty incredible move, I'm just not sure when where is best to use it.

Fixed.

• Arcfire - Most of the time, I'm pretty sure this is the version you want to run. The lingering hitboxes it leaves behind after hitting the ground/an opponent would be masochistic if Robin was a little faster. It's has a weird angle which makes it great offensive pressure from the air on grounded opponents. I could probably talk for days about how incredible this move is, but you've got all the Robin board for that. Of course, though, the move has plenty of issues - tons of start up and ending lag, as well as angle that can just as often leave your face totally open to ground based assaults. That said, like the default thunder this move is so versatile it's while you can cover up some of the above weaknesses with another special, you will definitely miss some of the opportunities this one sets up.

Arcfire's great, but kinda sucks when an opponent's just out of range-they can usually just roll in and punish.

Arcfire+ - Same move as above, without the lingering hitbox after it hits something, with move lag. I think most Robin players agree this move isn't worth it, though I've heard a little bit from the moveset thread and around the internet that this can be a good Anti-Luma move against Rosalina. I don't have any experience there, though, so I'd be interested to hear why this might be the case.

I think Robin has a million other Anti-Luma moves of this caliber.

• Firewall - This move is so promising but has a couple fatal flaws that keep it from being the standard I'd like it to be. The good here is that compared to regular arcfire, this move is fast and closes up the area right in front of you very well. This is amazing since while many fast characters use regular arcfire as an excuse to run up and grab and combo you, they are stopped in the same situation by Firewall. Additionally, while this move comes out right in front of you on the ground, you throw it down at a very steep angle from the air, so it's good for covering your landing, when Robin is usually especially vulnerable. The main issue with this move though has to do with something I realized yesterday - it's not a projectile. If you use this move in the air, the Firewall doesn't activate until it hits the ground, which is a huge disadvantage compared to the regular arcfire, and a huge pity. With that steep downward angle, if Firewall was a projectile it could really be useful in a lot of the situations you'd want to use Elwind as an attack in, and help even more in matchups like vs. Diddy where you really have almost no options coming down from up high. Still, very usable and cool special, just not quite the move it could be for silly reasons.

The thing is, it's not supposed to be a projectile. It's supposed too be a literal wall between you and the opponent. Compared with Arcfire, it's completely different and both have their own uses in different MUs.

Down Specials

• Nosferatu - This move basically lets me know how much of a noob I'm facing. If I'm facing a good player, I attempt this move 3 times, screw it up, do it a fourth time for the book, and miss the book. If I'm facing a bad player I can spam this thing to stay below 20% the whole match. More seriously, I think this move is better than I give it credit for - it's only a bit laggier than Robin's regular grab, the damage and healing is good, and the breathing room it gives you is even better.

Other Robins said they use this as more of a mixup, like when coming down from above. The main draw of this one compared with the others is the scaled healing it gives-at >100%, it gets a lot back.

• Distant Nosferatu - That said, I've been really enjoying trying out the customs because it helps make up for tight spacing of the regular variant. This one spaces perfectly to catch opponents when they instinctually shield Arcfire/Thunder. The healing isn't as good, but the novelty of being able to punish shields from a distance is pretty awesome.

Higher levels would be more concerned with punishing the lag, but yes, Arcfire-D.Nosferatu is a combo. Problem is, it's useless at closer ranges.

• Goetia - This one's the most intriguing one I've used the least. The loss of healing is really unappealing, but since the hitboxes for the other variants are so fidgety I'm intrigued by the larger range of this version. Better to land the attack and heal nothing than not use it at all, right? Really interested in hearing opinions one way or another hear.

I really don't like this move for the looong startup. It's basically a situational grounded move that one should use relatively sparingly.

I'm especially interested in other people's thoughts about matchups. For example, I'm having trouble figuring out which set works best for Diddy - the speed of Firewall and Speed Thunder seems is great for combatting rushdown, but without the defaults I don't have the tools to slow Diddy down and create guaranteed setups. For that reason, I think for a lot of matchups with faster characters it might be best to run one of Speed Thunder and Firewall, and leave the other as default, but I'm still not sure which works better for when. It's hard to figure out because naturally Robin's default moves all seem to link together, while the customs can disrupt the flow. This also might be a playstyle though.

This should definitely go under the other thread. Anyways, for rushdown/fast characters, I would think 33XX would be the best one. Speed Thunder for obvious reasons, and Fire Wall because against those characters, Arcfire's lag really shows.

Anyways, these are my thoughts generally on each move individually. I think by and large Robin has uses for most of her custom moves, it just depends a lot more on character/stage/player than other characters. I think this might be part of the reason we perceive default to be the best set right now - we all have the most experience using that set, and the custom versions of each special are different enough that you have to change up your playstyle to match. That said, I think in turn if we learn the ins and outs of these moves a little better, we really do have a best case scenario for Robin in terms of custom moves, where set viability has more to do with playstyle and matchup knowledge than with figuring out which particular move is the best.

(But...we don't think of default as the best. Most of Robin boards can't agree on a best).

 

[Raziek]

Haaaah. A lot of what you say is correct, but a lot of what you say is also incorrect. I do applaud the effort though.

First of all, challenging the assertion that the 'best set' is the default. I think default is very good in most match-ups. However, I think the BEST set is either 1311 or 3111 at least 80% of the time.

Thunder assessment is mostly correct. I would add that Thunder+ is basically useless in Singles. At this point I consider it 100% a doubles gimmick. Additionally, Speed Thunder is not actually as weak as you might think. It benefits pretty healthily from rage.

On Thoron's 'transcendence', it's not. Regular Thoron is just a bunch of individual hitboxes, which means it will eat through almost every projectile in the game. The main exception that I have seen is a sufficiently large Aura sphere, which results in a DBZ-style trade, as they pass through each other.

Speed Thoron is only 1 hit (for 10%), so it can actually be clanked by a sufficiently meaty hitbox, even one with no disjoint.

Fire Wall's main issue is its limited use on stages with platforms. It's very bad on stages like Battlefield or Dreamland, but exceptional on large, open stages like FD, Duck Hunt, or T&C. I use it in a lot of different match-ups if the stage permits.

Your Elwind section is fine aside from one critical flaw: On-stage Elwind is an AMAZING defensive tool. Robin has so much control over her movement post-Elwind that you will actually get punished SURPRISINGLY rarely as long as you're properly mixing up your fast-fall timing and your landing locations. Watch any of my matches for examples of this.

Elwind is also a better choice for spiking than Dair in about..... 95% of situations. Dair is better under 2 primary conditions:

1) You are in the water on Delfino.
2) The opponent is between 35 and 50%.

Elwind is awful in the water, and Dair is more likely to kill in that % range. Otherwise, I am almost always advocating Elwind.

Goetia is.... situationally useful. There are some characters on whom it is extremely hard to land regular Nos. Goetia can be an okay substitute in those matchups, but those characters are also the ones who have the easiest time reacting and just hitting you out of Goetia's absurdly slow start-up.

I run regular Nos in basically every match-up.

Now, this is still a work in progress, but here's my list of what customs I use against what character:

1111
1111, 3111 or 3311 (on flat stages). This one is mostly playstyle preference and is dependent on stage.
3111, 3311 (flats)
1111
Undecided.
1311 or 3111. Stage-dependent.
1111 or 3111, usually 1111.
3111 or 1111, depending on how cape-happy they are. If they're very good at reacting w/ cape, I run 3111.
3111 or 3311 (flats)
Undecided.
3111 or 1311. Preference & stage. On large, flat stages I would stick to 3111 or even 3311. Robin wants Speed Thunder vs. laser camping.
1111.
1311
1111
1311
1111
1311 on Flat stages. 1111 on stages w/ platforms.
3311. Link is not good at attacking the air above him, so Fire Wall is a surprisingly effective approach tool.
3311
1311 or 1111. Not completely decided on this one yet, but having default Arcthunder is very important for kill setups.
Undecided. Haven't played one yet.
1311, 3111, 3311. Preference/stage based, I think this one is very flexible and all have solid arguments in favor of each.
Not 100% decided on this yet, but I think Fire Wall is extremely good here due to his low traction. 1311 or 3311 most likely. Leaning towards 1311.
3111 or 1111: See Doc explanation.
See Lucina.
3111 if they are running Skull Barrier. (They should be) 1111 otherwise.
Undecided.
1111.
3311. Pray to whatever gods you know, you will need the help.
1111. Mii Gunner sucks.
Undecided. Have almost no experience vs.
Undecided.
1111.
Undecided.
Undecided.
1311 or 1111. Fire Wall situationally useful vs. Superspeed and/or Lightweight builds on open stages like T&C.
1111 or 1311. Peach has a really hard time approaching through Fire Wall on stages that facilitate it.
1311. Pika's size and mobility make Arcfire very difficult to use in this match-up. 1111 on stages that block Firewall.
3111. ROB is Arcfire combo fodder, and I strongly advocate using Speed Thunder as a means of claiming slight positioning wins via poking w/ Thunder.
3111 I think is the superior build in the ditto. Speed Thunder lets you disrupt positioning and Thunder charges a lot.
3111 or 3311. Speed Thunder is a must in this match-up because of how strong it is at killing Luma. Rosa has almost no answers to Speed Arcthunder or Speed Thoron.
1111 or 3111. Personal preference, largely based on whether you prefer disrupting dash-ins with regular Elthunder or Speed Thunder.
1111. Not fast enough to warrant Speed Thunder. Arcfire combo-fodder.
Undecided.
1111 most likely. Sheik is beaten by going on the offensive. Speed Thunder isn't meant for doing that. Maybe 1311 on some stages.
1111.
Undecided, but my theory-craft says the answer is probably involving Fire Wall. Likely 1311.
Undecided.
3311 or 3111. Need to do some more testing to decide for sure.
1311. Fire Wall is really good at blocking his aerial approaches. 1111 on stages that block.
Undecided.
Undecided.
1111.
Undecided.

@Dathx @Sonic Storm , feel free to help me fill in some gaps if you'd like. This is kind of an extension of the discussion I started the other night.

 

[Zeekfox]

I don't know why people dislike Soaring Elwind. I feel like standard Elwind, when recovering from very low, causes you to kinda float at that midpoint where the second wind is cast, giving your opponent a spot to meteor you. Soaring Elwind floats you really low instead, then boosts you up to the ledge fast, making you recover more like Rosalina. Yeah, I've seen some Rosalinas get stage spiked in tournaments, but even accurate Shieks seem to have trouble hitting those few frames where Rosalina is vulnerable before the snap.

Gliding Elwind I can see being good, but I can't bring myself to personally use it because it moves weird and I tend to SD if I play too much FG and forget I'm not using regular Elwind.

I'm also a fan of Distant Nosferatu for the simple fact that I feel the regular version is redundant. I already have a grab for up close. But the Distant offers an unblockable ranged option that Robin doesn't already have.

 

[ARGHETH]

I don't know why people dislike Soaring Elwind. I feel like standard Elwind, when recovering from very low, causes you to kinda float at that midpoint where the second wind is cast, giving your opponent a spot to meteor you. Soaring Elwind floats you really low instead, then boosts you up to the ledge fast, making you recover more like Rosalina. Yeah, I've seen some Rosalinas get stage spiked in tournaments, but even accurate Shieks seem to have trouble hitting those few frames where Rosalina is vulnerable before the snap.

Gliding Elwind I can see being good, but I can't bring myself to personally use it because it moves weird and I tend to SD if I play too much FG and forget I'm not using regular Elwind.

I'm also a fan of Distant Nosferatu for the simple fact that I feel the regular version is redundant. I already have a grab for up close. But the Distant offers an unblockable ranged option that Robin doesn't already have.

...Dude. Soaring Elwind floats even more. On top of that, you can't move horizontally with it at all.

The regular version has scaled healing and provides an option when you're in the air against a shielding opponent.

 

[Raziek]

I don't know why people dislike Soaring Elwind. I feel like standard Elwind, when recovering from very low, causes you to kinda float at that midpoint where the second wind is cast, giving your opponent a spot to meteor you. Soaring Elwind floats you really low instead, then boosts you up to the ledge fast, making you recover more like Rosalina. Yeah, I've seen some Rosalinas get stage spiked in tournaments, but even accurate Shieks seem to have trouble hitting those few frames where Rosalina is vulnerable before the snap.

Gliding Elwind I can see being good, but I can't bring myself to personally use it because it moves weird and I tend to SD if I play too much FG and forget I'm not using regular Elwind.

I'm also a fan of Distant Nosferatu for the simple fact that I feel the regular version is redundant. I already have a grab for up close. But the Distant offers an unblockable ranged option that Robin doesn't already have.

Soaring Elwind has no flexibility at all. You have to commit completely to recovering vertically (especially because she has a lot of time before she can change direction after the Apex). That makes it not only worse for recovery, but also completely nullifies its use as an on-stage defensive option.

Regular Elwind is surprisingly safe, and can and SHOULD be used as a landing mix-up on the stage.

Unblockable ranged has its uses, but Nos isn't functionally redundant because you can use it in the air. That not only lets you grab people out of their shields in situations where you could otherwise Uair them (see: someone above you on a BF platform), but also lets you use it while falling from the air if they're expecting Bair/Fair to hit their shield.

You can't do either of those things with regular grab.

 

[Zeekfox]

Well I know Soaring Elwind only goes up, but I thought regular Elwind was a lot more vulnerable than it is. Maybe I just took one too many d-airs or something. I'm pretty sure that Soaring also has an easier time getting at least one offstage hit in, but it doesn't have that 7% meteor sweetspot to it like regular Elwind, so it's not worth even trying.

Unblockable ranged has its uses, but Nos isn't functionally redundant because you can use it in the air. That not only lets you grab people out of their shields in situations where you could otherwise Uair them (see: someone above you on a BF platform), but also lets you use it while falling from the air if they're expecting Bair/Fair to hit their shield.

Ah, I guess I don't play enough on stages with platforms against people who will stand there and shield. I see it all the time in tournament play though.

I suddenly have an appreciation for Goetia since yesterday. I used it to catch an offstage Ness during a PK Thunder recovery attempt. Granted, that only worked because I had the stock lead, and I know regular Nosferatu can suicide someone too, but I think Goetia's a slightly easier catch to make.