Data COME AHWN - Captain Falcon MU Thread

[redcometchar]

I think Battlefield may help in this MU, the platforms diminish the options for Yoshi's eggs and also prevent him from using Yoshi bomb from the low ground as a read.

I actually think this is super important. Yoshi has a really good approach in short hop -> egg toss -> aerial. The egg toss covers his landing. He also gets nair -> jab in this scenario and his jab can be followed up with stuff.
But yeah run up shield is top tier. His grabS are slow and certainly vulnerable to bait and punish. Yoshi has some decent strings though, bair -> bair, bair -> dair, nair -> jab, nair -> nair, jab -> grab are a few off of the top of my head. I think he has a frame trap with egg toss to nair as well.

 

[Trifroze]

Yoshi has some pretty disgusting follow-ups on Falcon such as a utilt -> uair KO combo at high percents, or utilt -> 2-3 uairs and jab/nair into dash attack at low percents. He can also combo shorthop eggthrow into fair and uair, so never get caught by that if you're at KO percents or near the ledge. Try not to airdodge Yoshi too much in the middle of a combo because his frametraps and landing traps are as good as his follow-ups. Like said earlier he destroys Falcon's recovery if he reads your trajectory, but I've managed to wiggle my way back to the ledge with relative ease especially with the aid of Falcon's second jump + uair combination. It trades with Yoshi's dair at worst, but you receive no knockback from the early hits. That said, I die more often offstage than on the stage in this matchup. The Egg Launch custom neutral b is also pretty deadly for Falcon so avoid getting grabbed by that near the ledge or offstage.

On the other hand, Yoshi's recovery doesn't like to autosnap very easily so he tends to recover higher while covering himself with eggs. You can sometimes jump above him when you anticipate an up b and dair him out of it, and at other times you can punish his landings especially if he recovers using an aerial. I've had fsmash work pretty often here. If he tries to go for the ledge, you can tease him by holding jab or using dtilt since his head usually pops well above the ledge when he's going for it (well timed dtilt gets him regardless), which will sometimes straight up get him killed if you get him out of up b or even an aerial of his after his second jump. He may start anticipating this and uair you, in which case challenge or punish those attempts with dair once he catches on.

Yoshi combos Falcon at low percents more than vice-versa because of the differences in their fall speeds, gravity and defensive options despite having the same weight as Falcon, which gives you all the more reason to play this matchup patiently. Falcon comes out slightly stronger in neutral as long as you do that. Getting the advantage usually results in huge momentum because both characters are very combo oriented and have trouble landing and getting back on the stage versus each other. Falcon can juggle Yoshi easily even at higher percents while Yoshi can set up easy frame traps with his uair, nair and fair. Your uair will always be stale, but you can try to go for usmash or Raptor Boost more than usual in this matchup because Yoshi dies upwards as fast as some midweights. Falcon dies only slightly faster horizontally, but luckily DI is more effective horizontally in this game because of the new mechanics so you can expect to live long as long as you don't get gimped.

As said it's important to not overextend yourself against Yoshi when you're in advantage. He has probably the best disadvantage in the game being heavy but floaty, having a quick nair and jab with good hitboxes, and eggs to cover his recovery. One thing Yoshi definitely has trouble with however is landing, and Falcon can really capitalize on it. Uair beats or trades with his options and Yoshi's shield comes out slow, so you can use this to your advantage and usually get him with dash attacks after he lands. When in advantage, don't rush into his nairs; get your guaranteed follow-ups properly spaced and then watch what he does and punish/condition accordingly. Falcon can pretty safely use his shield since Yoshi's grab and command grab are slow and don't reach very far, but Yoshi's shield pressure is pretty good because of his down b, dair and speed in general, so don't leave yourself open to that for too long. Stay on the move with faster speed and punish whatever you can, the only safe thing Yoshi has on shield bar egg throw approaches is fair. Eggs also break from attacks near the beginning of the move, so you can read a shorthop egg throw with a shorthop uair. Yoshi in general hates quick aerials that can wall his approaches out, so do that with bair, uair or even nair.

I think this matchup is fairly even. Falcon gets comboed harder at low to mid percents and gimped more easily while recovering, but juggles Yoshi better at high percents while KOing him earlier. Falcon also in my opinion has a slight advantage in neutral giving him one fundamental advantage in the matchup, although not a big one.

 

[Fuerzo]

I usually play defensively against Falcons; Yoshi's biggest asset in this match is his ability to punish Falcon very hard (as well as being able to shut down his recovery fairly easily), so overly aggressive Falcons tend to get clobbered. As Trifroze mentioned, Yoshi has to recover high to avoid footstools/meteor smashes. Yoshi has limited options on shields (grabs and neutral B both work but they both come out slowly and can be punished), but shielding has to be quick because of the aforementioned options plus the fact that Yoshi can break shields with Yoshi Bomb and dair. Falcon's main advantage IMO is that his aerials out-prioritize Yoshi's, which is something we don't have to worry about for most matchups.

This matchup can be pretty volatile, and I'd say it's close to even or very slightly in Yoshi's favor thanks to Falcon's vulnerabilty to combos.

 

[lazerultra2]

First of all guys, I would like to say that I am french, so please, accept my apologies for my approximative English. I hope that I will be understood.

I play against a friend who plays Yoshi quite well. We fought for 30 hours approximatively. He became my nightmare.

So Yoshi. First thing is that he is incredibly fast. I am not talking about the same velocity as Falcon, but Yoshi can combo chain an opponent very fast. Once you are taken in his combo, it's quite difficult to get out from it. For example, his jab throw seem to have a lot of ending lag, so he can dash as soon as the opponent is being throw away. On the contrary, when Falcon finishes his jabbing, he needs quite a second to recover.

Let's move on his air play. The fact that Yoshi kinda float is really hard to read. Don't expect to spike him with dAir or dTilt when Yoshi comes back on the stage. Air dodging + floating make it really hard to spike as your opponent will see your move coming. Another point is to be careful when edge grabbing, Yoshi's Bair will punish everyone who grab the ledge, and I don't have to explain how long is his tail range when Bair. DownB is a killing move either in the air or on the floor (this last one is deeply surprising when correctly placed). Fair is sooooooo dangerous. The range of Yoshis nose with this meteor effect makes Yoshi dangerous in every situation outside the stage. As opposite to Falcon Dair which necessitate to be over your opponent, Yoshi's meteor don't need to be over the opponent, it just has to be place at the right timing aside his opponent which is a huge advantage when its being combined with its floating jump. Finally, don't stay bellow Yoshi's range, his dAir when correctly placed makes huge damage (32%).

About his ground play, as said before, Yoshi is really fast. SideB when correctly used may be extremely annoying because it is fast and reactive. Yoshi's dash attack make it hard to space him. Try to avoid his dash > uTilt > dAir or uAir (in high % it will kill you).

The solution against the Yoshi MU is to play patiently. Shielding and dodging will be the key to open its defense. Don't precipitate into punishing Yoshi, his fSmash has got an incredible range, and be careful to its sliding upSmash which make difficult to space correctly. Use Falcon's grab, but dThrow -> to nAir or Knee will be useless as Yoshi may/will air dodge your approach. I recommend to dThrow-> let the yoshi air dodge -> bAir -> dash -> uAir (x2) -> uTilt > fSmash. When Yoshi reaches 120% punish him with a good spacing and sideB. So the key word against Yoshi is patience!

 

[Sinister Slush]

I faced probably the best Falcon player (except for zero) yesterday and almost beat him, feel like this is an even MU. Still recovering after the weekend so a semi big write up later maybe.

 

[Trifroze]

Updating the Diddy matchup soon a little bit: I found out that Falcon can run over bananas at the start of his dash, and as his initial dash animation is very long this gives it very lenient timing. You can literally run over a banana that's a roll distance or less away from you without tripping. I don't know if this is known information but I haven't heard about it. This also works with PK fire; you can dash over it without getting hit during the latter half of the move when the bolt is closer to the ground.

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

Even matchup. I pretty much Co main these 2. First paragraph is gonna be general stuff, and the spoiler has some more specific matchup stuff to keep an eye out for.

CF is combo food to Yoshi. Yoshi is combo food to CF. Neither has any actual safe options to approach with believe it or not. Falcon kills easier, Yoshi gimps easier. You have an easier time dealing with eggs while you're grounded than most characters because of your ground speed. Yoshi has a harder time dealing with fast characters, but since you don't have a projectile and lack safe approaches we get a free pass on that. If you are playing a more aggressive yoshi or if you feel like you cannot handle eggs thrown from above go to battlefield (Imo if it's a more defensive yoshi you just CP'd yourself). It cripples yoshis aerial egg game, but the trade off is that he can make himself nearly untouchable with proper platform camping, and he can juggle you within an inch of your life due to those same platforms if you aren't careful. Flat stages and stages with high ceilings are your best bet because Yoshi's best kill moves are vertical, and you want to limit our ability to escape juggles as much as possible.

Spoiler

Eggs and Pivot grab can beat out anything almost on reaction when Falcon is approaching, but our low range means that if you perfectly space bair hits on our shield you can probably get away with it.
Falcon can more or less shield and punish anything Yoshi tries to do to him because of dash grab, but we have an aerial command grab, dair and down b will poke or kill your shield if it isn't healthy, and eggs contrary to popular believe aren't always punishable if you shield them.

If you understand Yoshi's egg habits you can punish them. Yoshi's will tend to throw their eggs in ways that cannot be punished on reaction, so normally you'll have to read it and position yourself accordingly.
We can be very difficult to edge guard and you have to respect that. If you run off and try to spike us or something, you just let us get back on stage for free. If you footstool us though we're probably dead so if you see that chance go for it.
Real talk, you shouldn't get too comfortable with your own recovery though. Like this next line is the most important part of my entire post for you guys.

IF YOU DON'T HAVE YOUR SECOND JUMP AT SLIGHTLY HIGHER PERCENTS, DO NOT EVEN ATTEMPT TO RECOVER LOW.

Like oh my god lmfao whenever yall don't have a jump in the vicinity of the ledge, up b almost immediately if you're above like 70%. If we dair you below the ledge at that percent you probably just died. We don't even need to time it really and we either beat you out or trade. If we trade you just died because of the way grabs work now. if we beat you out, DO NOT DI OUT. The last hit of dair pops you up, so diing in the direction yoshi is moving is your only hope of survival.

The easiest way to lose this matchup from either side is to not respect what the other character can do to you.

 

[teluoborg]

Updating the Diddy matchup soon a little bit: I found out that Falcon can run over bananas at the start of his dash, and as his initial dash animation is very long this gives it very lenient timing. You can literally run over a banana that's a roll distance or less away from you without tripping. I don't know if this is known information but I haven't heard about it. This also works with PK fire; you can dash over it without getting hit during the latter half of the move when the bolt is closer to the ground.

See this is for things like this I think an individual thread for each character are better. It is some crucial info right here and because the discussion has shifted it'll be hard to find in the future.

And we're only at the second matchup. As time goes on people will keep adding info on past matchups and eventually everything will become a big mess, just look at the Brawl character boards if you don't believe me.

[/]

Otherwise I don't have any exp against Yoshi, sorry. Thankfully his pivot grab and neutral B are not as stupid as in Brawl, but he has loads of other stuff to make up for them.

 

[LuLLo]

A few little tips against Yoshi:

- When Yoshi is facing away from you while landing, dash in and anticipate a B-reverse Egg Lay by spotdodging, lots of players go for this option. You can side-B, dash attack, down/forward tilt or grab to punish.

- When Yoshi nairs out of shield and you shield, they tend to go behind you alot of the time. An immediate backroll spaces you perfectly for a punish with grab, jab or tilts. If they go the other way, just dashgrab/attack.

- A Yoshi on the edge has trouble against Falcon, and sometimes they go for ledgehop-dair to catch you off guard. Be prepared to always roll back and respect this move even when trying to punish a whiffed one, since they can autocancel it. If you get the read, go for fullhop-dair (his hitbox is to big to punish with knee or uair unless timed perfectly, not worth the risk imo).

- I even catch myself doing this sometimes, but Falcons should NEVER airdodge after Yoshi does a throw, since he has no true combos out of them whatsoever.

 

[Fandangox]

- I even catch myself doing this sometimes, but Falcons should NEVER airdodge after Yoshi does a throw, since he has no true combos out of them whatsoever.

Didn't know this one, nice.

Also can we make MUs against Sonic the next discussion.

 

[Trifroze]

I think this has been enough time for Yoshi, especially when most people from both sides seem to agree on the fundamentals of the matchup.

Summary:
Play patient and safe, punish everything you can with proper spacing, and avoid getting gimped. Risks, aggression and mistakes in general can be very costly in this matchup because both characters have a strong advantage but Falcon's disadvantage and recovery are worse than Yoshi's. However, Falcon also has better tools to play safe as well as punish mistakes and KO. Pressure Yoshi with your aerials and the threat of your speed at mid range into using his unsafe approach options and punish him for them or anything else he does, and capitalize on his recovery if you get a chance to hit him out of his up b. The matchup is about even.

Details:
Yoshi can strongly capitalize on Falcon's two main weaknesses: his linear recovery and his susceptibility to combos. Yoshi also has a good disadvantage in comparison to most characters because he possesses a frame 3 nair and jab both with good hitboxes that can set Falcon up for follow-ups, monstrous aerial speed and a projectile that covers his recovery. Falcon however is faster than Yoshi overall with safer options and better speed and range in neutral. Thus, it's very important for Falcon to play this matchup patiently while always spacing properly with safe follow-ups to avoid letting Yoshi get anything started, especially at lower percents when he can combo you from 0 to about 40-50%.

Pressure Yoshi in mid range with your speedy approaches or let him come to you with his limited approach options. Bair and uair work for intercepting his aerial approaches as well as for spacing around or pressuring Yoshi, as he has a tough time punishing Falcon's bair. Shield his shorthop egg throw approaches; the only thing he can do after one is nair which you can easily punish. He can start the command grab too, but you can jab him before it comes out or at least react with a spotdodge and punish afterwards. Fullhop egg throws give you enough time to run below him and start a juggle with uairs, and Yoshi does not want to get juggled by Falcon, just watch out for his b reversals. Yoshi's grab is slow and throws don't kill or combo so you don't have to worry about his grab game too much.

When you're getting juggled, don't airdodge because Yoshi's frametraps are way too good and he'll get you anyway. Instead focus on DI and jump away when possible. Also watch out for egg -> fair/uair and utilt -> uair which are kill % combos. Be careful if Yoshi is using the egg launch custom and avoid stages with walk-offs, this sends you pretty far back. When offstage, recover low as long as you have your second jump left and cover it with uair to avoid being gimped by his dair or nair. If you lose your second jump and get hit further offstage you can increase your slim chance of survival by recovering high in this scenario as long as it's possible. While Yoshi usually likes to recover high, he is much the same, if he has to use up b or he commits to an aerial after his second jump hence losing his superarmor, you can jab or dtilt him out of it at the ledge or anticipate and intercept his choice with dair to gimp him. Sometimes Yoshi players will jump from the ledge with a dair because it autocancels that way, however it's a long move and thus a huge commitment which you can punish with an fsmash upon reading or reacting to it.

Falcon kills Yoshi more easily than vice-versa, and with Falcon's general safety and speed advantage you can capitalize on this quite far if you keep playing patiently at high percents. Also keep in mind that Yoshi dies more easily vertically due to having low gravity, while Falcon survives better in that direction which coincidentally is Yoshi's preferred killing axle. In addition to your other KO options, you can particularly consider using Raptor Boost or usmash to try to catch him from shorthops and kill him early, although it involves some risk. You'll also find plenty of opportunities to land them as punishes if you wait enough.

Pros:
- Safer approaches and faster punishing game
- Much more threatening grab game
- Higher KO power

Cons:
- Disadvantage and defensive options at low to mid percents are pretty terrible compared to Yoshi
- Offstage is extremely dangerous especially after losing second jump
- Can't play risky due to the above, on the contrary there's no need either

Stages to ban:
- Halberd: while Yoshi dies pretty early vertically and Falcon doesn't, Yoshi also prefers to kill vertically, but if you think you can take advantage of the situation go ahead
- Town & City: same as above
- Anything with walk-offs: the egg launch custom is deadly here and who likes walk-offs anyway
Stages to pick:
- Battlefield: while a good Yoshi can be deadly with platforms, so can Falcon, and the ceiling is higher than average here
- Omegas with straight walls: Yoshi doesn't have anything to camp Falcon out with, there's room for Falcon to move in, and the walls help Falcon's recovery
- Duck Hunt: large stage for Falcon to capitalize on his better KO ability with walls to help his recovery
- Kongo Jungle: very high ceiling and large blastzones to capitalize on Falcon's KO ability, Falcon benefits from barrel and platforms for his recovery more than Yoshi does

Sheik and Pikachu were suggested earlier so let's pick the more commonly seen character out of those two. I'll make sure to give Sonic the spotlight after this one though. But for now, let's talk Sheik. It would be great to get some higher level of insight on this one as I suspect that if Falcon has any matchups in Smash 4 where he has a considerable disadvantage, this would be one of them. However I personally lack any decent experience on this MU, but I'll try to get some before the discussion is over.

Maybe @ChileZeRo could hop in and give his thoughts on Falcon vs Sheik? He has used and liked Falcon quite a lot from what I know, and this is one of the more important matchups to cover. Anyway, I'll leave this shoutout here and hope for the best.

EDIT: Alright done with the summary, if you can call it that. Not yet sure how to compress an entire matchup into less than 500 words.

EDIT2: Figured it out, changed format to separate summary and details.

 

[Nate22Hill]

we should all get zeRo to hop in on this

 

[GaiustheThief]

Sheik main here and I use Falcon as a secondary also and I definitely think this MU is in Sheik's favor, being 7:3 or 6:4 at the absolute worst. Sheik's sheer quickness in attacks is a great asset for her in this MU and she can combo Falcon extremely easily due to his falling speed and weight and I don't think Falcon has much of anything fast enough to break out of a combo after she starts a fair string etc. The only downsides for Sheik I can see in this MU are her lightweight and her problems killing. However, due to her having arguably the best frame data and neutral in the game I feel that alone is enough to win this MU.
Good stages to ban would probably be Battlefield and Lylat since the high ceiling and large blastzones aid her survivability and she can carry you out far to gimp you. Good counterpicks would be Kongo or Halberd since the lack of a solid platform in Kongo and part of Halberd take away one of her primary ways of killing, stage spikes. And the smaller blastzones of halberd really damper her survivability but don't do much to yours.

 

[teluoborg]

Lol, if you try to kill with stagespike there's no need to go to Halberd, Falcon can just press L or R to survive. Stagespikes are good against people with bad timing, but let's assume both players are skilled ok ?

The two biggest difficulties in this matchup are getting combo'd and getting edgeguarded.

Against Sheik's combos you have to learn through experience when you can get out and when you cannot. Things you might try are changing your DI, airdodging or using your second jump, but be careful because choosing the wrong one at the wrong time can backfire horribly.

About the edgeguard phase you have to mix up your recovery : alternate between catching the ledge and landing onstage, doing your up B sooner or waiting for the last moment, etc etc. You have to keep the Sheik player guessing so that he has to choose between going for a hard read and risk missing his edgeguard, or waiting till the last second to react thus making his punition less violent.
And of course always be ready to tech a Bair, it's like Falcon's and always sends the opponent behind Sheik even if she touches you with the front hitbox.


Other than that I don't feel like the neutral is too much in anyone's favor if you play it right. The trick here is to not try to rush in and avoid jab range as much as possible or you will get rekt. Sheik has better close quarters game with her jab, Ftilt and Dtilt.
Prefer staying at max Dtilt range and try to kite her as this positioning limits her options greatly. It's not easy and requires you to be very focused, but if you want to create openings in her ame for you to punish it's definitely the place to be.
The moves you should use the most in the neutral are Dtilt, Bair and Nair, and abuse dash attack and dash grab to punish small spacing mistakes.
Be wary that it's not easy to maintain this zoning because Sheik can walk fast to cover short distances safely and break the Dtilt zone, and she can also punish your mistakes with dash attack or bouncing fish.

What else ? Killing is definitely in Falcon's favor with his large arsenal of kill moves that can kill Sheik earlier than she could ever kill Falcon, and they are more varied so Falcon can have a kill in a bigger number of situations.

Edgeguarding is in Sheik's favor because her Fair and Bair are low risk medium reward, and with a good read bouncing fish will kill you at 120. On the other hand Falcon is all or nothing, landing a Dair offstage is a kill at 40%, knee will kill at 60ish and Bair kills at 100% when fresh, but if you don't kill Sheik on the spot she will be able to recover most of the time. You can also go for the Bair stagespike if she tries to sweetspot herup B

 

[New_Dumal]

Ok, I'm a Sheik main and a friend of @ Silvalfo . Actually, we play this MU quite frequently (so as I do against other Falcon players). Falcon is my secondary too, so I will try to be usefull here.

Sheik x Falcon is , without a doubt, in Sheik's favor.
But at the same time is a hard MU, I don't think is a extreme one (90~10 or +4/-4) .
I would say is : Sheik +2/-2 Cap.Falcon, and I believe it will be discussed as something +3/-3 someday, but it's not now.
But most important, why ?

1 : Neutral Game (Large disadvantage)

The first thing that builds disadvantage in this MU is the Neutral.
At low %'s, you can't risk anything as Falcon.
Dash grab, dash attack, Falcon kick or anything like that could be very well punished (as Falcon have a good size and weight to be combo'ed in a Ftilt->Fair string, FThrow->Fair string,Fair-> BF ...).
Let's now admit you're playing safe.
You can't beat Sheik's aerials horizontal hitboxes, and that's a major problem.
Sheik's Fair ENDS the active frames in the exact frame Falcon would start his Nair (7).
So just don't try to compete with her Fair wall of pain.
Stay in shield, and only if she plays dumbly, punish the movement reads (with FK, jab...)

Jab and Shield are your best friends against the lunatic pressure.
Most Sheik's don't space their Fairs as they should.
It's not that easy to perfect-space against Falcon, and land a Fair in shield looks to be safer than it really are.
If Sheik space her Fairs in shield a bit away of you, try to jab. Sheik's jab1 comes ONE frame earlier than yours, but she will have landing lag.
If Sheik space her Fairs in shield in front of you (she played like trash), grab and punish as hard as you can with DThrow ->Uairs, or maybe DThrow->Dash attack ->Uairs (I don't think this is a true combo).

While you can't compete with her aerial horizontal hitboxes, Sheik don't have a great hitbox move for below her.
This means your Uair works pretty good.
Try to always be below her, as you want in almost every single MU.
But beware about her famous Nair(late hitbox) -> Bouncing Fish, as it sends you to "I dare you recover this far against sheik" zone.
Needles would force you to approach, but you can PS them.
Don't let needles-camping transform you in a berserk Falcon.
Berserker Falcon dies early in this MU.

Ending the Neutral-game talk : You don't have a safe way how approach Sheik.
Sheik fast dash attack punishes even the better spaced Nair in shield, and dash grab punishes hard the not much spaced ones.
Your FTilt is a good option here, underused a bit in this MU (I think), but again is nowhere safe.
FF Uair is suicide, as any other aerial approach.
Your better chance at approaching is betting at a 50/50 situation with dash grab and dash attack, but I really think is not worth.
As Sheik has more options to approach, she will want to combo you.
Plays defensively and punish every pattern in her movement or bad spacing.
Dash attack and jab her bad Fairs, and always try to Shield->Grab their Tomahawk attempts(Tomahawk is the mixup of jumping and fast falling without a Fair , to punish the shield with a grab).

I wrote a little too much, and I feel like is a bit too useless...I expect to be wrong.
I will stop here today and will talk about other stuff tomorrow, editing this same post.
(1- Neutral game: DONE.
2 - Combos (and how to DI), 3- Kill potential and 4- Gimp factor: will be there soon.)

 

[Trifroze]

I've got some experience now although still not on the same level as with Diddy or Yoshi. I think Falcon's neutral isn't that much worse than Sheik's, just his ground game is a lot less safe but he gets a lot more reward than Sheik for landing his main ground options (dash grab and dash attack). Falling uair is indeed safe on Sheik's shield no matter how you space it, although stale ones have to be spaced properly. Bair is also safe on shield but it has to be spaced, otherwise she can punish it with jab. Crossup dair is barely not safe, but the reward for landing it is pretty big and it creates a lot of pressure so I'd use that too occasionally, just to be less predictable and have more complicated patterns. Jab is a good tool in neutral but the rapid variation doesn't connect on Sheik for whatever reason. Although Sheik's moves are safer overall, Falcon can generally punish her better than she can Falcon, however her dash attack comes out really fast and gives her a boost so you shouldn't be throwing out too many moves at mid range as shouldn't Sheik. Needles are annoying as hell but Falcon can punish them from mid range, it's just often hard to react to them in that scenario.

You can get favorable trades against her fair with shorthop uairs because of uair's >2x higher damage output and the chance of getting a juggling position against Sheik if you get her first or have low enough percent to not get sent flying from the trade while she does. Buffer the uairs though, I advice switching L or R into jump just so you can easily do these with c-stick when needed without accidentally JC usmashing or doing the uair later than optimal. Sadly Falcon can't do anything else after a buffered shorthop uair except second jump, but neither can Sheik. Regardless, being able to second jump before landing is a big deal sometimes because it means you don't have to go through landing + jump squat frames to get into the air again, allowing you to get easier follow-ups upon hit confirmation or jump away from a potential landing punish. Neutral in general is in Sheik's favor but the rewards she gets for winning neutral aren't that great compared to Falcon. You can take risks especially once you're past the percentage of being faired 5 times in a row into offstage. Always push your follow-ups to their limits and try to force her into an airdodge or an aerial and finish her stock as early as possible as you would in any other matchup.

Offstage is really dangerous so you should be always conserving your jump and watching out for needles and bouncing fish, being ready to tech stage spikes and challenge her edgeguarding with your uair or a well maneuvered up b grab. When Sheik is recovering try to force her to use her up b from far away, that way you can drop off the stage and bair her 2 frame ledge vulnerability, sometimes catching her off guard and stage spiking her stock off. This is relatively consistent to pull off but if you miss, immediately second jump + uair so she can't gimp you. Offstage is where Falcon will be dying the most, so practice all the unpredictability you have access to while recovering. If you cover yourself with uair when she rushes down on you and sometimes delay your up b to get her with the grab hitbox all while always being ready for stage spikes, you shouldn't be dying offstage too early because you simply won't get sent far enough to give Sheik a free gimp out of your up b. It requires more than one mistake on Falcon's part.

It goes without saying that we kill Sheik much faster everywhere else. Try to get your uairs and bairs fresh with jabs, dash attack, pummels and throws and then finish her at around 100-130%. Her moves are so quick and her range so good that attacks like fsmash, usmash and side b rarely catch her. If you can avoid getting gimped you'll generally live to 170-200% with good DI. Just always avoid immediate airdodging out of her throws or she will either uair or up b you well before that.

I think this is a disadvantageous MU, but not that horrible. Falcon's recovery is the key thing that Sheik can really exploit better than any other character with her speed, frame data and range, but with careful offstage play and capitalizing on Falcon's good neutral and stronger advantage I think you can make this MU decent.

 

[Fandangox]

I think that probably should cover this one, Sanic next? (Or Piks, whichever)

 

[Trifroze]

Yeah that seems to be all we can get on Sheik for now unfortunately, although it'll still do. Here's the conclusion.

Summary:
Falcon's combo and punish game hurts Sheik a lot more than Sheik's hurts you due to higher damage output and more dangerous finishers, however the real danger for Falcon is getting carried offstage since it can lead to gimps which Sheik excels at. DI away from her fair strings and always watch out for Bouncing Fish, Needles and stage spikes when offstage, and always mix up your recovery. Punish Sheik's up b ledgesnap vulnerability with bair whenever possible. Sheik's close range and long range games are better due to her tilts and needles respectively and approaches safer due to her great range and low lag, although Falcon has some safe approach options of his own and a more potent punish game at mid range. Falcon has the tools to combat Sheik as long as you avoid getting gimped, but it will happen to you from time to time. However Sheik's main weakness is her lack of kill power which Falcon excels at while also being much heavier than Sheik, so this evens it out quite a lot. The matchup is considered to be a disadvantage for Falcon, but not a massive one for now.

Details:
Sheik has safer options in neutral due to Needles, better frame data, good range and her low lag, but Falcon has some safe and dangerous tools of his own for both approaching and punishing. Watch out for Sheik's ftilt and dtilt which setup into combos as well as her dash attack and needles which can punish most things Falcon has on the ground. Stay in mid range just outside of her tilts and aerials and use dtilt to outspace her on the ground and buffered shorthop uair and bair to intercept her fairs. Sheik's needles are also unsafe at these distances, although you still have to watch out for her dash attack although it's a very unsafe option on her part. Punish all her mistakes hard with dash grab and uair juggles. Falcon's falling uair and bair are safe on Sheik's shield so you can use these for approaching and footsies, but nair can also control space although it's less good of a trade against her aerials and a bigger commitment than bair and uair. As always, cover your landings with jab if you feel like she'll try to grab you, but rapid jab doesn't work in this matchup.

Falcon's advantage in general is much more dangerous to Sheik than Sheik's advantage is to Falcon due to your higher damage output and more dangerous finisher, however Sheik can combo you offstage with fair strings and gimp you at relatively low percents if you make mistakes or she makes the right reads on your recovery. Hence it's always important to properly DI away from her combos and try to challenge her fairs with uair since it hits in front of Falcon. Be ready to airdodge Bouncing Fish and Needles and always mix up your recovery by covering your second jump with uair or airdodge if she approaches, using your up b immediately or delaying it, going straight for the ledge / landing onto the stage / grabbing Sheik out of a failed read with your up b etc. At low percents you can make it back with relative ease because you have all these options, however once you start getting knocked further and further offstage your options become more limited. Fortunately her fair strings stop working eventually as long as you properly DI away from them. Also always be ready to tech stage spikes. When Sheik recovers, you may chase her with RAR bair and dair, read and punish her bouncing fish, and always attempt to bair her ledgesnap vulnerability when she uses up b onto the ledge as it is fairly easy to do and can net you a KO at relatively low percents if she misses the tech or doesn't react in time. If she does tech, you can second jump uair after hitting her. Just don't go for it when she uses her up b close to the ledge or you'll be hit by the explosion.

Falcon has an easier time KOing Sheik when it comes to other areas, and his two safest options in neutral, uair and bair, also get rid of Sheik easily due to her fairly light weight. Sheik gets comboed and juggled pretty hard by Falcon so try to always get the most out of that and condition her to an airdodge to finish it off with a knee or dair. Sheik won't kill you until well after 150% as long as you don't fall victim to bad DI or unnecessary airdodges out of her throw setups in which case she can kill you with uair or up b earlier than that. Expect to get gimped occasionally, live to 180% occasionally and always KO Sheik between 80-140%. Since your often in rage, uthrow and bthrow can become more viable kill options as well.

Falcon does have the tools to deal with Sheik aside from the gimp factor, so be particularly smart about this one thing and acknowledge your competent neutral, better KO ability and more threatening advantage and utilize it all to make this MU as small of a disadvantage as you can.

Pros:
+ Better mid range game due to higher speed and all Sheik's options bar properly spaced aerials being unsafe from dash grab
+ Dtilt outranges her immediate ground options
+ Falcon's uair and bair are good for trading with Sheik's fair
+ Higher damage output
+ Much better KO ability

Cons:
- Offstage is extremely dangerous and Sheik has combos to get us there
- Close range is worse due to Sheik's faster jab and tilts that combo or lead into above combos
- Sheik's mid range isn't bad either due to her high speed and dash attack
- It can be hard to find openings in neutral with Sheik's frame data, range and low landing lag

Stages to ban:
- Halberd: to avoid any early shenanigan kills from Sheik such as dthrow uair

Stages to pick:
- Omegas (with straight walls): helps Falcon's recovery quite a lot by giving more options

Alright, let's do Sonic "sanic" hegehog next. I'll invite Sonic boards over and give my thoughts on the matchup later, although again my experience isn't super vast on him.

 

[BlackPhantom]

Falcon is crazy as **** in this game. Sonic can combo falcon easily and vise versa, but only if you read the spring. Both have terrible or linear approaches and both can camp the other if they have stock advantage. Thats all I can think of now, but if I have time I can come back later and say more

 

[Silvalfo]

Thanks for the Sheik compilation. That will be my everyday morning mantra lol

Sonic matchup:
I'd say the best option both players have on the start of the match is to not press any buttons until the other player dozes off and you can hit him.

Jokes aside,
Hold jab if he spindashes, be ready to tech when recovering because his Spring can demoralizingly gimp you at ridiculous percents. Punishing game is very heavy for both characters.

I haven't played many competent Sonics other than two matches against one who completely rekt me in a tournament, so I can't say much more than that.

 

[redcometchar]

Both have terrible or linear approaches

Really? I always thought sonic and falcon had pretty good approach options. (not being sarcastic actually not sure)

 

[teluoborg]

Eyo @ Trifroze Sheik's needles don't force Falcon to approach, thank god.

OK It's a pretty good long range punisher and can be used to pressure and gimp offstage, but if you get pressured by needles in the neutral you need to go see a doctor. A shield or a short hop will negate them completely and there's nothing Sheik can do to capitalize on this at long range.

Other than that I'd just add BF and Lylat to the list of stages to avoid against Sheik because of how platforms set up bouncing fishes and Usmash for her and nothing else, your write up is perfect.

 

[Boogie96]

I recently played a set in a tournament against a pretty good Sonic and I counter-picked Duck Hunt for Game 3 and I think it was a good choice. The multitude of platforms can help you get away from some of Sonic's combos, and I'm pretty sure that Duck Hunt has smaller side blast zones and that can help Falcon if you can land a bair or a nair (at higher percents).

 

[Lanzoma]

Preface: I asked my crewmate Wv Khal Jesus for his thoughts, and between the two of us we discussed the MU at length. This is the result of that:

Sonic's main gameplan in neutral is getting you to commit to something he can spindash punish, as most of his damage comes from that. Since spindash itself has low priority, he'll mix up the timing using feints (cancelling the charge with shield), and mixup his approach with dash grab / dash shield / pivot f-tilts. Pressuring landings is also another one of his strenghts, as his speed allows him to chase them very easily. Nearing KO %s, he will fish for spindash to bair, back throws and f-tilts / f-smashes to push you offstage and seal the deal.

The matchup itself will usually boil down to mid-range posturing from both sides. Both can punish commitment from the other at this range, and also be close enough to try a mixup. Sonic is more likely to concede stage position in order to bait a response, so often, he will be pushed to the edge where he's no longer able to avoid commiting, and at this point, a spindash approach is likely to happen.

A big part of the matchup is knowing what Sonic can do during spindash. Here are the most common options:

• Jump + Spring out: Defensive option. The spring will cover his retreat, and he will be able to d-air and autocancel it to regain control quickly. Despite the autocancel, Sonic is vulnerable to u-air (easy to outprioritize his kick), or dash attack / dash grab on his landing. If he chooses to not d-air down, his only options in the air are aerials and airdodges. Chase his landing and punish him appropriately. Do not forget about the spring hitbox.
• Jump through: Defensive option. Sonic retains most of his options, but is now in the air in a disadvantaged position. There is no guaranteed punish here, but you should pressure his landing to force a response, or you can OoS b-air/u-air if you're quick enough and you don't expect him to Spring out immediately. Sonic will usually reset to neutral after this.
• Jump + Neutral B: Offensive option. If you remain in shield, it is very likely that the neutral B will shield poke. This will also punish slow OoS attempts. To punish this, you can either spotdodge or roll to avoid the attack and then punish him afterwards. Unfortunately, sometimes Sonic will not track Falcon and instead will end up away from you, making a punish harder. There's two types of neutral B, one faster than the other, which Sonic can control to mess up your timing.
• Preemptive jump / Spinshot: Offensive option. This is often used if you're trying to contest spindash directly (holding jab, for example) or trying to jump over the spindash mixups. Since Sonic retains most of his options, you must wait to see what he does next or try to contest him with an aerial.

It is generally a good thing to have Sonic spindash towards you, as holding jab will either beat it or clank with it 90% of the time, and shielding will force him to commit to something you can punish. U-air is a great tool to force Spring escapes, which in turn can be further pressured and punished. On Sonic's end, he will try to pressure landings rather than keep you juggled in the air.

The neutral situation feels roughly even to both of us. Both chars have the tools to pressure and punish each other, and it tends to come down to who has the better reads.

Advantage and disadvantage is a different story.

Onstage, Falcon has a better advantaged state. Sonic's floatiness makes it hard to land, and once the Spring escape-hatch is pulled, his options are severely restricted. Falcon also hits harder, both in damage and knockback, and Sonic is not particularly good at taking hits. When the situation is reversed, Falcon's fall speed makes it hard for Sonic to keep up juggles, and while f-air strings do carry him offstage, the damage they do is negligible.

Offstage, Sonic has the upper hand. F-air has enough knockback to outright gimp Falcon, and spring is also a very serious threat that will beat airdodges and gimp as well. It can sometimes be hard to tech the spring as it hits with a Sakurai angle, so the launch trajectory depends on %. When the situation is reversed, Sonic can afford to recover low without much threat, as he can vary the Spring timing to avoid getting spiked, and he is invincible from startup to about mid-height. If he has a jump, he can also spinshot (which also has slight invincibility) back to stage. Trying to go deep to edge guard him can easily result in getting gimped by the Spring in return.

As for stages, Sonic thrives in long stages that allow him to bait for as long as possible, and stages that let him reset to neutral easily. He struggles with inconsistent platform placements and heights, since it essentially cuts off the positions in which he can d-air back to stage with reasonable safety. Small stages also force him to go in often, which leaves him in a vulnerable position when the mixup fails.

With this in mind, these are the stages to avoid: Duck Hunt, Delfino, Skyloft, FD.
These are good counterpicks: Town and City, Battlefield.
And these it's hard to say who benefits more: Smashville, Castle Siege, Lylat, Halberd.

Here is a video that showcases plenty of this. @-Fatality- , if you'd like to chime in, feel free

 

[BlackPhantom]

Preface: I asked my crewmate Wv Khal Jesus for his thoughts, and between the two of us we discussed the MU at length. This is the result of that:

Sonic's main gameplan in neutral is getting you to commit to something he can spindash punish, as most of his damage comes from that. Since spindash itself has low priority, he'll mix up the timing using feints (cancelling the charge with shield), and mixup his approach with dash grab / dash shield / pivot f-tilts. Pressuring landings is also another one of his strenghts, as his speed allows him to chase them very easily. Nearing KO %s, he will fish for spindash to bair, back throws and f-tilts / f-smashes to push you offstage and seal the deal.

The matchup itself will usually boil down to mid-range posturing from both sides. Both can punish commitment from the other at this range, and also be close enough to try a mixup. Sonic is more likely to concede stage position in order to bait a response, so often, he will be pushed to the edge where he's no longer able to avoid commiting, and at this point, a spindash approach is likely to happen.

A big part of the matchup is knowing what Sonic can do during spindash. Here are the most common options:

• Jump + Spring out: Defensive option. The spring will cover his retreat, and he will be able to d-air and autocancel it to regain control quickly. Despite the autocancel, Sonic is vulnerable to u-air (easy to outprioritize his kick), or dash attack / dash grab on his landing. If he chooses to not d-air down, his only options in the air are aerials and airdodges. Chase his landing and punish him appropriately. Do not forget about the spring hitbox.
• Jump through: Defensive option. Sonic retains most of his options, but is now in the air in a disadvantaged position. There is no guaranteed punish here, but you should pressure his landing to force a response, or you can OoS b-air/u-air if you're quick enough and you don't expect him to Spring out immediately. Sonic will usually reset to neutral after this.
• Jump + Neutral B: Offensive option. If you remain in shield, it is very likely that the neutral B will shield poke. This will also punish slow OoS attempts. To punish this, you can either spotdodge or roll to avoid the attack and then punish him afterwards. Unfortunately, sometimes Sonic will not track Falcon and instead will end up away from you, making a punish harder. There's two types of neutral B, one faster than the other, which Sonic can control to mess up your timing.
• Preemptive jump / Spinshot: Offensive option. This is often used if you're trying to contest spindash directly (holding jab, for example) or trying to jump over the spindash mixups. Since Sonic retains most of his options, you must wait to see what he does next or try to contest him with an aerial.

It is generally a good thing to have Sonic spindash towards you, as holding jab will either beat it or clank with it 90% of the time, and shielding will force him to commit to something you can punish. U-air is a great tool to force Spring escapes, which in turn can be further pressured and punished. On Sonic's end, he will try to pressure landings rather than keep you juggled in the air.

The neutral situation feels roughly even to both of us. Both chars have the tools to pressure and punish each other, and it tends to come down to who has the better reads.

Advantage and disadvantage is a different story.

Onstage, Falcon has a better advantaged state. Sonic's floatiness makes it hard to land, and once the Spring escape-hatch is pulled, his options are severely restricted. Falcon also hits harder, both in damage and knockback, and Sonic is not particularly good at taking hits. When the situation is reversed, Falcon's fall speed makes it hard for Sonic to keep up juggles, and while f-air strings do carry him offstage, the damage they do is negligible.

Offstage, Sonic has the upper hand. F-air has enough knockback to outright gimp Falcon, and spring is also a very serious threat that will beat airdodges and gimp as well. It can sometimes be hard to tech the spring as it hits with a Sakurai angle, so the launch trajectory depends on %. When the situation is reversed, Sonic can afford to recover low without much threat, as he can vary the Spring timing to avoid getting spiked, and he is invincible from startup to about mid-height. If he has a jump, he can also spinshot (which also has slight invincibility) back to stage. Trying to go deep to edge guard him can easily result in getting gimped by the Spring in return.

As for stages, Sonic thrives in long stages that allow him to bait for as long as possible, and stages that let him reset to neutral easily. He struggles with inconsistent platform placements and heights, since it essentially cuts off the positions in which he can d-air back to stage with reasonable safety. Small stages also force him to go in often, which leaves him in a vulnerable position when the mixup fails.

With this in mind, these are the stages to avoid: Duck Hunt, Delfino, Skyloft, FD.
These are good counterpicks: Town and City, Battlefield.
And these it's hard to say who benefits more: Smashville, Castle Siege, Lylat, Halberd.

Here is a video that showcases plenty of this. @-Fatality- , if you'd like to chime in, feel free

My dude just summed it all up. In the end, the goal of falcon is too avoid and punish spindash, making the opponent think twice about it. Also, falcon keeping pressure up close is essential for this MU. Since both characters want to keep at a close range, staying on sonic to the point where charging a spindash is very unsafe is the way to go. Sonic thrives off punishes, a lot of times more than falcon, so throwing out aerials just to have an active hitbox is a good choice.

Although, if your forced on the defensive, stick to evading sonic's spin and/or throwing out a bair or uair to stop it.

I can easily give this MU a 50:50 just because both characters have good options against each other in terms of punishing and pressure.

P.S. Keep sonic in the air for majority of the match. Falcon, along with a plethora of other characters beat sonic in the air priority priority wise, and can punish his landing options.

P.S.S My bad, Spindash can ne beaten by falcon's jab. Forgot to say that. And nair, if timed properly.

 

[s7ug]

I absolutely, for the life of me, cannot beat DDD. My best friend mains him and for some reason I can't figure out what I'm supposed to do. He can beat me in the neutral with the range on his moves/gordo. Any approach on the ground gets stuffed with his ridiculous ftilt/jabs. Any approach through the air gets zoned out by gordos or out-ranged by his aerials. And don't even get be started on ledge guarding. His recovery is beyond ridiculous and there is nothing I can do to possibly ledge guard him. I've tried it all, if I go deep he'll just recover high with a gordo zoning me out. If he recovers low with his up-b I can't edge guard at all and he snaps to the ledge. Overall, I have to play SIGNIFICANTLY better than him to take a match, if we both play equally he'll always win. Any advice guys?

 

[redcometchar]

I absolutely, for the life of me, cannot beat DDD. My best friend mains him and for some reason I can't figure out what I'm supposed to do. He can beat me in the neutral with the range on his moves/gordo. Any approach on the ground gets stuffed with his ridiculous ftilt/jabs. Any approach through the air gets zoned out by gordos or out-ranged by his aerials. And don't even get be started on ledge guarding. His recovery is beyond ridiculous and there is nothing I can do to possibly ledge guard him. I've tried it all, if I go deep he'll just recover high with a gordo zoning me out. If he recovers low with his up-b I can't edge guard at all and he snaps to the ledge. Overall, I have to play SIGNIFICANTLY better than him to take a match, if we both play equally he'll always win. Any advice guys?

First of all, in this thread we are trying to discuss matchups one at a time. Please keep that in mind.

Now adressing Gordo, just hit them. Reflecting gordos is an excellent strategy. Jab is probobly the best tool for this.

Now for your approaches, you need to be more careful. Pick your moments more carefully and watch your spacing because ddd outranges your options, but ddd's moves are laaaaaggy. Capitalize on this.

Optimize your punishes. Ddd gets combo'd my falcon really bad. Im not familiar with what optimal ddd punishes on falcon look like but I dont imagine they are better than Falcon's.

As for edge gaurding ddd, challenge him at the ledge and not off stage. Lege trumps, and option coverage.

As for mentally, I understand where you are coming from. I had the same sort of problem with my best friend's peach. I knew I should be winning but I wasnt. I also apealed to the smashboards for help and got smacked around. My best advice to you would be to learn to eat the humble pie. You are missing something.

Aside from this, other things that helped include, picking up another character, play him in ddd dittos, and record your matches.

Good luck

 

[s7ug]

First of all, in this thread we are trying to discuss matchups one at a time. Please keep that in mind.

Now adressing Gordo, just hit them. Reflecting gordos is an excellent strategy. Jab is probobly the best tool for this.

Now for your approaches, you need to be more careful. Pick your moments more carefully and watch your spacing because ddd outranges your options, but ddd's moves are laaaaaggy. Capitalize on this.

Optimize your punishes. Ddd gets combo'd my falcon really bad. Im not familiar with what optimal ddd punishes on falcon look like but I dont imagine they are better than Falcon's.

As for edge gaurding ddd, challenge him at the ledge and not off stage. Lege trumps, and option coverage.

As for mentally, I understand where you are coming from. I had the same sort of problem with my best friend's peach. I knew I should be winning but I wasnt. I also apealed to the smashboards for help and got smacked around. My best advice to you would be to learn to eat the humble pie. You are missing something.

Aside from this, other things that helped include, picking up another character, play him in ddd dittos, and record your matches.

Good luck

Ah sorry about that, I wanted to post this in the non-stickied MU thread but it's locked for some reason. Yeah I know you can reflect the gordos but they're still disruptive during an approach if he angles them to bounce almost straight up and down. His moves are very laggy, but the range is so huge that you don't have time to punish. For example, his ftilt is impossible to spot dodge/roll under due to its duration, and shielding doesnt work due to the multi-hit. I agree that once I get a grab and start comboing I can rack up damage, but those are very sporadic bursts and usually not enough to kill. I'll experiment with ledge trumping, havent nailed down the timing yet on those bairs. Thanks for the reply!

 

[redcometchar]

Ah sorry about that, I wanted to post this in the non-stickied MU thread but it's locked for some reason. Yeah I know you can reflect the gordos but they're still disruptive during an approach if he angles them to bounce almost straight up and down. His moves are very laggy, but the range is so huge that you don't have time to punish. For example, his ftilt is impossible to spot dodge/roll under due to its duration, and shielding doesnt work due to the multi-hit. I agree that once I get a grab and start comboing I can rack up damage, but those are very sporadic bursts and usually not enough to kill. I'll experiment with ledge trumping, havent nailed down the timing yet on those bairs. Thanks for the reply!

I was under the impression that you could roll behind grab ddd's f tilt and jab. If not maybe cross up pressure is the way to go? Ac nair or bair? If not that either maybe dash up empty hop back to condition him to not ftilt your approaches, then dash grab? Also ac upair might be a good way to deal with gordos on the move.

 

[Lanzoma]

Dedede has a lot of shenanigans, and he doesn't have much representation. It's a hard matchup to learn, for sure.

Unfortunately both of these things make it unfit for any deep discussion at the moment. I feel your pain though, because one of the strong players in my area plays him. If you want to open a thread for D3, I'll glady post replays and give pointers there. I'm still a bit burned out from the Sonic post, but give me a few days and I'll lend a hand.

 

[Trifroze]

About time to wrap this up and move on.

Summary:
Falcon's dash grab is a tool that makes him faster than Sonic at mid to mid-long range, although Sonic is still much faster in terms of dashing itself and can pressure better with speed alone. Needless to say both characters punish each other easily. Sonic isn't a combo heavy character and his damage output isn't huge either, so Falcon's advantage is relatively much stronger in this matchup. Unlike Falcon, Sonic doesn't have safe approaches but he can mix them up very well, and while you have options against all of them sometimes it'll require awareness and decent reaction on your part which is the main challenge here. Hence you should mainly stay within a range where you can comfortably shield/hold jab on his spindashes but still react if he tries to grab you instead while pressuring him with your aerials and punishing any commitments with your faster dash grab. Try to keep Sonic in the air when you get him there and always punish his dair and landings. While Sonic can't really juggle Falcon, he is good at punishing Falcon's landing options with his speed. When Sonic is offstage you should mainly try to get his ledge vulnerability with dtilt or bair unless he's very far offstage in which case you can RAR chase him. You shouldn't be gimped by Sonic's spring unless you're knocked so far offstage that you don't have the option to hit the spring with an aerial or maneuver around it with your up b at all, and if he chases you down with aerials you can outright grab him out of them with up b's grab range. Falcon kills earlier in this matchup. All in all Falcon vs Sonic is roughly even.

Details:
Falcon can stop Sonic's spindash by holding jab resetting into a boxing situation or sometimes outright beating it, and you can shield Sonic's spindash and punish any follow-up attacks like neutral b or his aerials with uair and bair. Sonic has decent boxing options in his jab and ftilt, but your dtilt outranges his boxing options and jab puts him into a much worse position than his jab puts Falcon. Spring jump is Sonic's safest option to get away from trouble, but it puts him in the air for juggles and landing punishes even if he goes for an autocancelled dair. You can hit him out of this with uair or punish his landing with dash grab or dash attack even if it's autocancelled as long as you time it well which you have plenty of time for. The main problem here is reacting to Sonic's mixups and avoiding being pressured into throwing out an unsafe option which Sonic can punish. Falcon's aerials bar knee and dair as well as the second hit of his dsmash are safe on shield and Sonic does not want to get dash grabbed or put in the air so Falcon has pressuring options of his own. Always techroll his dthrow and switch up your direction; Falcon's techrolls are incredibly good while his tech getup is average at best.

Falcon's advantage is much better because he has higher damage output and longer combos, and while Sonic has good aerial speed he's floaty and his aerial mobility is terrible, although Falcon's isn't great either. Sonic mainly gains the upper hand on landing punishes and by knocking Falcon far enough offstage that he can gimp you with spring, otherwise you can easily maneuver around it though and Falcon's up b grabs Sonic out of all his aerials easily aside from a well timed bair. When Sonic is offstage you shouldn't go after him unless he's far away because his up b has invincibility at the beginning of it and the spring can gimp you if Sonic manages to jump above you, so instead try to hit his ledge vulnerability with dtilt or bair which may easily gimp him especially at higher percents. If he's far enough offstage that he has to commit to his second jump well before the ledge, chase him down with RAR bair and dair.

Sonic's main kill options are his bair, uair, back throw, usmash and fsmash, the latter two of which you shouldn't really get hit by, although watch out for the deceptive range of Sonic's fsmash although Falcon has deceptive range of his own. Falcon can survive Sonic's back throw particularly well for some reason even though it's a horizontal KO move, and actually kills Sonic earlier with his own back throw as well as uair and bair which are the moves you should mostly be throwing out in this matchup aside from your usual knee/dair traps.

Pros:
- Stronger advantage due to combos and higher damage output and better KO ability
- Faster and more threatening mid range punishing option in dash grab
- Safer neutral options with aerials and a better aerial game

Cons:
- Falcon has more trouble offstage
- Sonic's dash speed is still a lot faster than Falcon's
- Sonic has a lot of mixup options in neutral and a stronger ground game combined with his speed

Stages to ban:
Skyloft, Delfino, Duck Hunt, FD/Omega: large stages with a lot of camping options for Sonic and FD emphasizes Sonic's better ground game

Stages to pick:
Battlefield, Town & City: platforms emphasize Falcon's better aerial give while also relieving pressure that Sonic can create on the ground

I guess it's time for Pikachu now then, I'll drop the Pikachu boards in and give my thoughts later (either in the form of the final summary or in a post before that).

 

[ZeusGodOfThunder]

I guess I'll add a little bit on the Pikachu Falcon matchup since I main pika and 2nd the Cap.

Pros for Falcon:
Pika is light pretty easy to Ko, especially with a read on an F-Smash.
Falcon will be hard to kill with Pika, as he doesn't have the best ko power except with a gimp, read on an F or U-Smash.
If Pika recovers the normal way with double up-b (up and then to the side) Falcon can get a read into a knee/d air maybe even U-tilt?

Cons for Falcon:
Pika has great combo ability and can break Falcon strings, with N-Airs or even throw out a D-air to counter a U-air from Falcon
Pika forces Falcon to engage with thunder jolts in neutral.
Pika can crouch under Falcon's grab. Can occasionally duck under grab.
Falcon gets caught in Pika's Uptilts like there is no tommorow.
If Falcon gets offstage Pika can gimp him pretty easily if he times Falcon's Up-B right, either with a B-Air, N-Air or even F-air or offstage Thunder.


It's probably 65-35 in Pika's favor. Honestly, like most gameplay involving Falcon it comes down to reads, however Pika due to his Up-B mixup ability, small size, quickness, combo ability and recovery makes him difficult to read.

Even though Pika can mess around and QAC on Battlefield it is probably his best choice against Pika. While FD or anything Omega is probably his worst.

Just my 2 cents, btw Trifroze u actually got me to secondary Falcon when I was looking for a secondary to pickup, I can't wait for your 3rd Falcon combo vid

 

[Silvalfo]

Pikachu is a pretty bad MU for Falcon.

Keep in mind that Pikachu's low range is one of our few saving graces in this MU, so challenging his aerials horizontally with uair and bair isn't such a bad idea. His fair is quick but trading with it is always favorable.

One of the better advices I've heard for this MU is "play as if you were a faster Ganondorf". Due to Pika's small size, general low amout of commitment and excellent maneuverability you can't rely on dashgrabbing everything and SH aerials need much more precision to hit. Play in a calm albeit alert fashion, and capitalize on his mistakes with your bigger, heavier hitboxes.

 

[Shinyman337]

Pika can be tough for Falcon. One reason is because of how short he is, his size make Short Hop N-air almost unusable. This limits Falcons neutral game making him rely solely on dash grabs and dash attack for approaching. Falcons weight also hurts him because Pika can juggle him easily with things like D-throw --> U-tilt --> U-tilt --> U-air. Falcon also gets gimped easily with thunder jolt. Falcon does a few advantages in this MU though. Pika lacks kill power needing to get a hard read with U-smash or F-smash to kill somewhat early. Falcon on the other hand can take advantage of Pika's light weight and kill very early. Pikachu's recovery is very predictable so act occordingly with a B-air or D-air to kill/edgeguard. Overall it's probably Falcon's 2nd worst matchup after Sheik. I give it a 65-35 in Pikas favor. It's hard but it's no Melee Sheik vs Bowser

 

[Trifroze]

A few quick points I wanna throw out into the table:

- Pikachu cannot actually crouch under Falcon's grab, he can only avoid it during the landing animation of bair, dair and fair.

- Falcon can punish thunderjolts on reaction from half a stage across unless they're used very high up in the air while retreating.

- Falcon's up b grabs Pikachu through all of Pikachu's aerials if used next to him and properly spaced (not hard), I feel this option in general is very underutilized as his up b has massive disjointed grab range.

- Pikachu is very light with average fall speed making him very susceptible to dthrow combos (since it has less endlag on lighter characters), making dthrow buffered from dash grab into knee a true combo on Pikachu at 65-85% that cannot be DI'd away from, it is fairly precise and has to buffered from a dash grab for the maximum amount of momentum to carry over but it is a true, easy to setup kill combo at early percents. So far the only other characters I've found this to work on are Rosalina from 40 to 75% and Mewtwo from 50 to 90% as well as Kirby at around 55% but that one seems impractical. Up and away DI might work but in those cases bair will hit them and usually kill, and uair will be guaranteed to kill them at 100-120% with this setup.

Pikachu can gimp Falcon very well if Falcon can't use his up b within close range, and Pikachu combos Falcon pretty badly. However from experience Pikachu will take as much or more damage from Falcon's combos overall, although Falcon sort of dies to Pikachu combos at low percents. With dash grab dthrow to knee/bair being a true kill setup between about 60-110% and uair after that, I wouldn't actually imagine this matchup to be anything worse than a slight disadvantage to Falcon, but I'll still have to see how much rage affects this and how much dthrow staling/freshness could hinder or help it since training mode doesn't let you play with those variables.

One of the better advices I've heard for this MU is "play as if you were a faster Ganondorf".

Must've been me unless someone else said the same thing B)

 

[ZeusGodOfThunder]

A few quick points I wanna throw out into the table:

- Pikachu cannot actually crouch under Falcon's grab, he can only avoid it during the landing animation of bair, dair and fair.

- Falcon can punish thunderjolts on reaction from half a stage across unless they're used very high up in the air while retreating.

- Falcon's up b grabs Pikachu through all of Pikachu's aerials if used next to him and properly spaced (not hard), I feel this option in general is very underutilized as his up b has massive disjointed grab range.

- Pikachu is very light with average fall speed making him very susceptible to dthrow combos (since it has less endlag on lighter characters), making dthrow buffered from dash grab into knee a true combo on Pikachu at 65-85% that cannot be DI'd away from in any way, it is fairly precise and has to buffered from a dash grab for the maximum amount of momentum to carry over but it is a true, easy to setup kill combo at early percents. So far the only other characters I've found this to work on are Rosalina from 40 to 75% and Mewtwo from 50 to 90% as well as Kirby at around 55% but that one seems impractical.

Pikachu can gimp Falcon very well if Falcon can't use his up b within close range, and Pikachu combos Falcon pretty badly. However from experience Pikachu will take as much or more damage from Falcon's combos overall, although Falcon sort of dies to Pikachu combos at low percents. With dash grab dthrow to knee being a true early kill setup I wouldn't actually imagine this matchup to be anything worse than a slight disadvantage to Falcon, but I'll still have to see how much rage affects this and how much dthrow staling/freshness could hinder or help it since training mode doesn't let you play with those variables.



Must've been me unless someone else said the same thing B)

ahh your right about the grab I swear it wasn't working when I was playing online then again I was hammered.
Edit:Haha he can it seems like it has to be at a certain angle

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

#Freel

Pikachu is SO SHORT so it is really really hard for Falcon to grab Pikachu on his landing aerials or even ducking, so he has to punish with dash attack (Obviously worse). Pikachu gets ridiculously long combos on Falcon with fairs, utilts, and uairs which typically lead to a falcon offstage. Falcon DOES get the combos on Pikachu kinda the same but it is hard to punish Pikachu's landings just because of QA and his short stature on landing fairs/bairs.

Once falcon is offstage he should die almost every time. Bair trading with up-b, bair just hitting in general, fair, t-jolt, and thunder just end stocks. The pikachu essentially needs to mess up for Falcon to get back. Even if falcon DOES grab the ledge, it is so hard for him to get back on stage against pikachu since he is just so good at covering all of falcons landing options, it's ridiculous.

So yeah, probs like 70:30. Falcon's worst Match-up more than likely.

 

[teluoborg]

I'm tired of people thinking easy to perfect shield projectiles force Falcon to approach. This kind of long windup slow traveling high cooldown move doesn't have more pressure potential than charizards flame thrower. It can be good for zoning, but the instant a Pikachu throws a lighning jolt and is not at the complete opposite of the stage from me he just earns a "dash-powershield-dash" punish. Pikas shouldn't spam Tjolt in this matchup.

Other than that I agree with Esam: Pika's small size and easy combos+edgeguard give him the advantage as Falcon has to completely revamp his playstyle if he wants to break even.

One advice I have is to be really attentive when you shield Pika's aerial, because depending on timing he can be completely immune to oos grab and shield drop jab. If Pika ends his Fair too high on your shield the hitlag of the final hit gives you as much time as you want to up B OOS though.
Up B OOS is pretty good in this matchup in general because it hits low enough to get Pika when he's flattened on the ground. You shouldn't abuse it because it is slower than regular grabs and can be punished hard if you miss, but you can use it enough to teach Pika that just because he's flat doesn't mean he's safe.

Other than that you really want to avoid relying on jab, grab and dash grab in this matchup. Prefer dash attack, Dtilt and Bair ; avoid close quarters and Uair a lot.

If you play this matchup like every other it's 8:2 for Pika and you will never win, if you adapt and actually don't play Pika's game I believe it can be reduced to 6:4.
Either way it's Pikachu's favor.

 

[Trifroze]

Once falcon is offstage he should die almost every time. Bair trading with up-b, bair just hitting in general, fair, t-jolt, and thunder just end stocks. The pikachu essentially needs to mess up for Falcon to get back. Even if falcon DOES grab the ledge, it is so hard for him to get back on stage against pikachu since he is just so good at covering all of falcons landing options, it's ridiculous.

Things though:

Who needs grab armor when you've got 2.5 Mario(s) of disjointed range? When Falcon has his second jump left or has the ability to use up b relatively close to the ledge, he should never get hit by Pikachu's aerials unless Pikachu outreads him and attacks from above where Falcon has no grab hitbox. I dunno why people think Falcon is a training dummy when he's offstage, unless he has to recover from so far away that he loses his mid air jump and all the up b maneuverability options because he needs all the distance he can get, but he doesn't get knocked that far until after around 80-100% especially by Pikachu (who should die at those percents by Falcon). Thunderjolt and up b can put Falcon in a position to have to do things he doesn't want to though, but I would still claim it takes work to gimp a decent Falcon player as long as he doesn't get knocked to the blastzone by every move.

EDIT: Also yeah it seems Pikachu can crouch under Falcon's jab and grab if his ears are outside Falcon's range so while situational it's definitely possible.

I'm tired of people thinking easy to perfect shield projectiles force Falcon to approach. This kind of long windup slow traveling high cooldown move doesn't have more pressure potential than charizards flame thrower. It can be good for zoning, but the instant a Pikachu throws a lighning jolt and is not at the complete opposite of the stage from me he just earns a "dash-powershield-dash" punish. Pikas shouldn't spam Tjolt in this matchup.

Other than that I agree with Esam: Pika's small size and easy combos+edgeguard give him the advantage as Falcon has to completely revamp his playstyle if he wants to break even.

One advice I have is to be really attentive when you shield Pika's aerial, because depending on timing he can be completely immune to oos grab and shield drop jab. If Pika ends his Fair too high on your shield the hitlag of the final hit gives you as much time as you want to up B OOS though.
Up B OOS is pretty good in this matchup in general because it hits low enough to get Pika when he's flattened on the ground. You shouldn't abuse it because it is slower than regular grabs and can be punished hard if you miss, but you can use it enough to teach Pika that just because he's flat doesn't mean he's safe.

Other than that you really want to avoid relying on jab, grab and dash grab in this matchup. Prefer dash attack, Dtilt and Bair ; avoid close quarters and Uair a lot.

If you play this matchup like every other it's 8:2 for Pika and you will never win, if you adapt and actually don't play Pika's game I believe it can be reduced to 6:4.
Either way it's Pikachu's favor.

I agree that dtilt, bair and dash attack work better than jab and grab variants in this matchup, but doesn't up b have an even higher grab range than Falcon's regular grab? It doesn't even grab Pikachu's crouch, although Ganondorf's up b does for some reason. Regardless, fair and bair seem to be the only attacks from Pikachu where he can completely avoid Falcon's grab before his IASA frames so grab is still an extremely valuable tool in this matchup, you just need to know when to use it. Like I mentioned Pikachu along with Rosalina is one of the seemingly very few unique characters Falcon gets a guaranteed kill on from a dash grab from about 80% all the way to 130%. Knee works for any DI except up and away from about 65% to 85%, while bair and uair work for any DI, the former beginning to kill at 80-90% and the latter at 110-120% with no rage from the center of the stage (these two also reliably work on ZSS). Falcon's metagame is seriously unexplored compared to how many people use him and these dthrow kill setups on light characters is one of the things that needs to be implemented as well as explored more.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Um sorry to break the chain, but who will be discussed next? May I make a request?