Clone Engine Misc. Discussion Thread

[Solbliminal]

You know, I forgot about his voice for a second.. nevermind. He looks cool, but sounds horrid.

It's all good man. I agree with you. You should look at his prototype design. It is actually better in my opinion.

 

[Time/SpaceMage]

I haven't beaten Mother 3 (or TP, guys) but Duster did seem pretty cool for a character. I think the Mother series should stick to one character rep per game, otherwise I could go along with him (if ony because I remember so many pictures of him when Mother 64 was coming out... wait no that was Flint! I mix those two up sometimes because they both have stubble.) Flint was like the second main character, though Duster had more skills going for him.

Also for what it's worth, I don't want Ganon getting ported to another character either... but go ahead with the ideas; it's an interesting concept to read about.

 

[ChronoBound]

Smash Bros. has always been a gathering of all of Nintendo’s various franchises and history. With each subsequent installment of Smash Bros. new franchises are granted content in Smash Bros., whether it be playable characters, stages, items, Assist Trophies, music, or trophies. There has been a greater call for Sakurai to give more Nintendo series a playable character in Smash Bros., and so far it looks like this will be the case (of the two Nintendo newcomers shown so far, both of them were representing series lacking a playable character in Brawl). Both “rumored” (from the same source that leaked Wii Fit Trainer, Villager, and Mega Man) Nintendo newcomers for Smash 4 (Little Mac and Mii) are also characters from series lacking playable in Brawl.

However, although this a positive sign, there are still quite a few series that very likely won’t receive a playable character in Smash 4, despite clearly deserving one. Golden Sun is a possible example of this. Despite Isaac being very highly requested for Smash 4 (among the Top 10 most wanted characters for Smash 4 among Western Smash Bros. fans), the very dismal performance of the third installment in Japan, as well as the lack of requests among Japanese fans, may mean the series will yet again only receive an Assist Trophy as opposed to a playable character (probably of Matthew).

However, in terms of long-running Nintendo franchises, perhaps the one example that is most striking, and much more likely than Golden Sun to be ignored in Smash 4, is that that of the Wars franchise (Famicom/Advance Wars). This series only received an Assist Trophy (which basically consisted of three sprite rips from GBA games), a trophy of that Assist Trophy, and six stickers (Andy, Sami, Max, Jake, Rachel, and Hawke).

The dismal popularity to the franchise in Japan, as well as the very low amount of requests in the West, basically ensures that the series won’t be receiving a playable character in Smash 4 at the very least (it may even lose its Assist Trophy representation).

However, the Wars franchise is a series that is very much deserving of playable representation in Smash Bros. Aside from Punch-Out, it’s the longest running Nintendo franchise with at least five installments under its belt, that has not been given a playable character yet in Smash Bros.

A little history and background about the Wars franchise.

The Wars franchise is often either referred to as the Famicom Wars or Advance Wars franchise. Depending on who you ask, the series have a minimum of seven installments to a maximum of twelve installments. There are seven games in the series developed by Intelligent Systems (Famicom Wars, Game Boy Wars, Super Famicom Wars, Advance Wars, Advance Wars 2: Black Hole Rising, Advance Wars: Dual Strike, Advance Wars: Days of Ruin/Dark Conflict). For the remaining five games, three of the games were developed and published by Hudson (a third-party), which were Game Boy Wars Turbo, Game Boy Wars 2, and Game Boy Wars 3. The remaining two games were real time strategy games developed by Kuju Entertainment (Battalion Wars and Battalion Wars 2).

Still, even strictly looking at the games developed in the series by Intelligent Systems (seven in all), the series is clearly deserving of a playable character.

Famicom Wars was the predecessor to Fire Emblem, being released by Intelligent Systems about two years before the first game in that series was released. While the Famicom Wars games (Famicom Wars, Game Boy Wars, and Super Famicom Wars) never reached the highs that the Fire Emblem series did in Japan in terms of popularity and sales, it did see a large fan following upon its first international release.

The first international release for the franchise was Advance Wars, released in September 10, 2001. The first international release was met with enormous praise and accolades. The game consequentially sold very well. In addition to the popularity of Marth and Roy in Melee, another huge factor for Fire Emblem going international was the sales success and praise of Advance Wars, according to one of the designers of the game.

As with the original Advance Wars, the sequel was also met with sales success and accolades in the West. This case was repeated with Dual Strike and Days of Ruin/Dark Conflict.

The case though with Japan was different. Although Advance Wars was originally planned for an October 2001 release, it was delayed in Japan due to the September 11th terrorist attacks, and the second installment as well was never released. It was not until November 25th 2004 that those games were released in Japan as part of a duo pack cartridge, however, it ended up selling poorly due to how close it was released to the Nintendo DS’s launch in Japan. Dual Strike also ended up selling poorly in Japan. The poor sales of the previous three titles developed by Intelligent Systems, may have been the primary reason why Days of Ruin/Dark Conflict was never released in Japan despite being made by a Japanese developer and already having a Japanese translation available for the game.

With three games released in the interim between Melee and Brawl (just going by Intelligent System’s mainline series), and Advance Wars released only two months prior to Melee, many people felt it was unfair that the series was basically ignored in terms of content in Brawl.

Being a very long running (starting from 1988), popular, and having many installments under its belt, why shouldn’t this notable Nintendo franchise have a playable character for Project M (especially since it likely will never happen for Smash Bros.)?

Well, for one, only four of the games developed by Intelligent Systems (the four combined games on the GBA and DS), were actually story driven (expanding it to the Battalion Wars games, only half of the entire series 6/12 actually had a plot).

Secondly, the Project M team has said that only characters that appeared in Brawl could be under consideration for playable inclusion as possible newcomers in Project M. This leaves only seven possible characters from this series to be under possible consideration for Project M: Andy, Sami, Max, Jake, Rachel, Hawke, and a generic soldier.

Regardless of the character chosen, it would probably be for the best to make the character someone that is a clone of Snake, who possesses a lot of military hardware and weapons.

Let’s get into each possible candidate.

Max:

Max is one of the most important CO’s in the entire series. He was a major supporting protagonist in Advance Wars, Black Hole Rising, and Dual Strike. While he did not have as much importance as Andy in the first one, he shared prominence with Sami and Andy in the sequel, and had the most important role of the “Big 3” in Dual Strike.

While Max is a part of the original CO trifecta, he often comes up less than both Andy and Sami as a prospective character. Due to his huge muscles, its pretty easy to imagine him as a “power” character, who have very strong physical power and a very high weight, but comes at the cost of speed and usually recovery. Considering that Snake is already a heavy, slow, and powerful character, putting in Max may not be as contrasting as other possible Advance Wars characters.

Jake:

Jake was basically the main character of Dual Strike. Nothing else can be said here. Despite being the main character of his game he rarely comes up. He could theoretically be quick, light, and weaker than Snake, though he could also fit in as an “well rounded” Snake clone. Nothing else to say here.

Rachel:

She is among the most important CO’s of Dual Strike. She is probably the most well known female CO after Sami. Nothing else to say about her

Hawke:

He was a major antagonist in Black Hole Rising. He returned in Dual Strike as a supporting protagonist. There is nothing else to say about him.

Generic soldier:

These characters have appeared in every game to this series, and were the Assist Trophy representing the franchise in Brawl (as sprite rips). While they come up every now and then, they are basically faceless characters.

There is really only two good choices for a possible character to represent the Wars franchise: Andy and Sami.

Both of these characters have various things going for them over the other one, so it may be down to personal preference as to which character would be the better one to represent the franchise.

Andy:

Andy was the most important character in the first international title to the Wars franchise, Advance Wars. He returned again in the sequel Black Hole Rising as one of the three most important protagonists. In Dual Strike, he is an unlockable character.
Due to Andy’s prominence in the first two international titles, he is one of the two most popularly requested character for an Advance Wars character. He could be a light quick weaker version of Snake.

Although he is not even seen using military weapons (he is usually depicted in artwork holding a wrench instead), there have been other child or child-like fighters in Smash Bros. before (Ness, Young Link, Toon Link, Lucas, Pit).

Andy may be the most well-known character in the series due to his prominence in the first two international games in the series.

Sami:

Spoiler

Sami was an important character in the first international Wars title, Advance Wars. She returned again in Black Hole rising, as one of three most important protagonists. She also made an appearance in Dual Strike.

Although not as important as Andy is, she rivals him in requests. Her prominence in the first two international titles, as well as her sporting military hardware in nearly every official piece of artwork for her,has made her the only other character from the series to receive a notable amount of requests. Additional artwork where she has be seen using realistic weapons are below:

Her usage of military weapons in nearly all of her official artwork, has made people more easily see her as a possible clone of Snake.

Andy vs. Sami:

Its really down to these two characters as to which one should represent the Wars franchise. Both have various advantages and disadvantages.

Andy:
+ Most well known Advance Wars character.
+ One of the two most requested Advance Wars characters.
+ Has more importance overall to the series than Sami.
- Is not as “hand to hand combat orientated” as Sami in both artwork and personality.
- May end up being criticized for “stealing a spot” from a more requested character due being both less popular and well known that more requested possible Project M newcomers.

Sami:
+ Probably the most well known character after Andy.
+ One of the two most requested Advance Wars characters.
+ Has high importance to the series
+ Is shown using military weapons in all of her artwork, making the transition to being a Snake clone much more believable.
+ Being female could shield her from more criticism if people are unaware of who she is (Zero Suit Samus/Wii Fit Trainer principle)
- Less important to the series than Andy, as well as less known.
- May seem like a “random” addition due to not having a singular “most important protagonist” role.

As such it may be down to which factors the person reading this values more.

However, there is another factor to look into which is, “how will people who are absolutely unfamiliar with this character, view him/her.”

For those who were around for the “Melee era” (basically, those who bought Melee back when Melee was first released or bought it prior to Brawl’s release). Think about your reaction to Marth and Roy. Nearly everyone who first unlocked those two characters in Melee did not know who they were or even what series they were from.

However, a lot of those people unfamiliar with those two characters, still felt a desire to play with them, and upon playing them, thought they were great additions to the roster. Many, many people (including myself) ending up enjoying Marth and/or Roy so much, that they sought out to play the source material games for their series (the Fire Emblem series).

Although Marth was a popularly requested character for Melee by the Japanese fanbase (he was by far more supported than the more recent lords Sigurd, Celice/Seliph, and Leaf despite his game having been released over seven years ago by the time Sakurai was taking fan requests for Melee), Roy was a character that Sakurai took a gamble on. Contrary to popular belief, it was Sakurai’s idea, not Intelligent System’s, to include Roy in Melee. When Sakurai had decided to expand Melee’s roster with six additional clones, one of the clone spots he decided on was one for Fire Emblem.

(Its important to note that Sakurai himself is a big fan of the Fire Emblem series. He took Iwata’s place in the Iwata Asks interview for Shadow Dragon, has a copy of FE3 downloaded onto his Wii, and has even gone on the record as to his favorite FE character, Nabarl, a mercenary from the games that Marth has been in).

Sakurai went to Intelligent Systems for permission to use a second Fire Emblem character for Melee, and while he was there got a sneak peak at FE6, which was in development at the time. Seeing Roy, Sakurai took a liking to the character, and became convinced that he would be a better choice than the three Jugdral lords (all of which received barely any requests from Sakurai’s pre-Melee poll). Sakurai felt that Roy’s fire sword helped contrast him more than other possible choices for a second Fire Emblem character. He also thought could help promote the series as a whole. Sakurai further explained on Roy’s update on the Japanese Melee Dojo that although players had yet to play Roy’s source material game, that he felt many people would love Roy for his “charm”.

It ended up that Roy became one of the most popular newcomers from Melee, and that he brought in a lot of new fans to the Fire Emblem series, proving Sakurai’s intuition correct.

From this history lesson, perhaps further clarity could be given to the Project M team about which Advance Wars character to choose to represent this long neglected (but important) Nintendo franchise, should they deem whether a character from this series would be something they would like to do or would be received well..

The thing is that both Andy and Sami are both relatively unknown characters today’s generation of Nintendo fans. The last Advance Wars game was released nearly six years ago (Days of Ruin/Dark Conflict). The last game to which both Andy and Sami had their most important role was in 2003 (although both characters also appearing in Dual Strike in 2005, they definitely did note have the prominence in it that they did in the previous two Advance Wars titles).

It might be more helpful to look at these two characters through the perspective of how people will like/enjoy them without knowing anything about them, and how likely they are to draw people in, much like Marth and Roy did back in Melee.

The fact is that Advance Wars characters have less requests than several other possible Project M newcomers, despite how feasible they would be (it would be very appropriate to make them Snake clones). As such, they need to look at this through the lens of how people they did not know about them or ask for them, will view the character.

As Sakurai would like to say, “Is the character someone that would make people want to try the game?”

While Andy has more importance over Sami, Sami might be more attractive as a character that would get more people to try the “Advance Wars character” simply due to how much she would contrast with the rest of the roster (there are only three-four woman fighters on the roster, and in terms of requests for Project M newcomers, Lyn is the only woman that is popularly requested). However, while she would seem like a much better addition in the eyes of those unfamiliar with the franchise, she may end up seeming “less deserving” to those more familiar with the franchise.

It would be fitting to go with the “Marth/Roy principle” for an Advance Wars characters considering the franchise is the sister series to Fire Emblem. By making the character appealing, they would help bring in possible new fans to the Wars franchise after enjoying the character in Project M, and yet also make them seem more at “home” in Smash Bros.

However, in my view, both characters are deserving of playable inclusion in Project M, and would help bring an important aspect of Nintendo’s history to the roster.

Some obstacles with including an Advance Wars character:

There are definitely a few obstacles to including an Advance Wars character:
- They are not highly requested as over choices.
- They have no 3D models for which the Project M team to base off of for how they would look in 3D.
- Have no voices (would require file rips from other video games for characters that may seem similar enough to them, that they would plausibly work as a voice for Andy or Sami in Project M).
- Likely would be unable to have the Cyper as a recovery move since that is a Metal Gear exclusive machine, so a new recovery move would have to be made for them.
- Copter Final Smash with the reticule may not be the most appropriate (a Landmaster-esque Final Smash where a tank from Advance Wars comes down may be a better choice).

However, despite this, including an Advance Wars fighter would still be an attractive choice. As said, a character from this franchise would represent one of the longest running Nintendo franchise lacking a playable character in Smash Bros. Secondly, depending on how they execute, they would repeat the “Marth/Roy principle” which is a character for which most people are unfamiliar with would end up becoming one of the most popular additions, simply due to how distinctive they are with the rest of the cast.

The Project M team has the opportunity to finally do things that that Sakurai has yet to do in Smash Bros. (the jury is still out on whether Ridley will be playable or Ganondorf will be de-cloned in Smash 4). However, as it stands, its very unlikely that an Advance Wars character will be added in Smash 4 for the reasons outlined in this piece.

The Wars franchise is the sister-series for Fire Emblem and probably the most popular and iconic Nintendo franchise (aside from Golden Sun) that will still be lacking a playable character in Smash Bros. after the release of Smash 4. For this reason, such a character is an extremely attractive choice to the Project M team as well as fans of both Nintendo and Smash Bros.

I hope that this piece offers some more clarity on this topic as well as this often over-looked franchise. It may have been long, but I hope that a few people at least had some enjoyment (or at least interest) in reading it.

I personally as a solitary fan, may not know what is best, so forgive for any possible hubris or “here is what to do and do it now” ethos in this piece.

My main hope was simply to bring more awareness about the Wars franchise to those who may be unfamiliar with it, and why it possibly deserves a spot in Project M.

Thank you for your time and patience.

 

[shinhed-echi]

Damn Is Mother that much better then Mother 3? Ive been waiting for the fan remake to be done to play it.

Well it's subjective really.
I know I'm the minority here but I enjoyed Mother 1 as a game and as a story a lot more than Mother 3.
Especially when the latter was just... SO hard and the ending was so anticlimatic. (Did they run out of budget in the Final Boss?)
I never truly understood what was going on throughout it either.

Mother 1 was pretty touching, in a way that didn't depress me of course. The characters were a bit more relate-able to me.
My motivation throughout Mother 1 was uncovering the mistery of Magicant. In Mother 3 I had no real motivation... perhaps other than facing Porky (which is why New Pork City was the only part of the game I really liked).
Overall Mother 3 is good... but yeah, I liked Mother 1 better. Wish I could go into more deatail, but it's been what... 4 years since my Mother-marathon so I already forgot most of the details of the stories. XD


THEN AGAIN, the first time I played Mother 2, I found it just "ok", but when I played it in that marathon I did 4 years ago, I couldn't turn it off! So perhaps I oughta give Mother 3 another chance. (Though this time, if I do a marathon again, Mother 3's going up against the Mother 1 remake, so we'll see). >

 

[ChronoBound]

I probably should have spent more time on the presentation to my Advance Wars post or broken it down into sections. I am afraid the poor presentation may make it unreadable for many.

 

[red9rd]

I haven't beaten Mother 3 (or TP, guys) but Duster did seem pretty cool for a character. I think the Mother series should stick to one character rep per game, otherwise I could go along with him (if ony because I remember so many pictures of him when Mother 64 was coming out... wait no that was Flint! I mix those two up sometimes because they both have stubble.) Flint was like the second main character, though Duster had more skills going for him.

Also for what it's worth, I don't want Ganon getting ported to another character either... but go ahead with the ideas; it's an interesting concept to read about.

actually from what I remember you didn't really get to play as flint much, you just walked to Alecs (Lucas's Grandpa) house that's it. I think you spend as much time playing Duster as you do Lucas. As for what TheedgeofLucas about the MaskedMan How the hell did you not know who the Maskedman was the first second he came on screen but you knew who sheik was.

 

[Time/SpaceMage]

actually from what I remember you didn't really get to play as flint much, you just walked to Alecs (Lucas's Grandpa) house that's it. I think you spend as much time playing Duster as you do Lucas.

You play as him for all of Chapter 1! You don't remember the fireflies and the Reconstructed Caribou and Mecha-Drago?

And ChronoBound, that was a really interesting read since I've never played the AW series. Based off of that, Max sounds like a really interesting character haha.

 

[ChronoBound]

And ChronoBound, that was a really interesting read since I've never played the AW series. Based off of that, Max sounds like a really interesting character haha.

Thanks I appreciate it. As I said in the piece, many Nintendo fans today are unfamiliar with the series due to the hiatus it has been on (its last installment was released in January 2008).

I took out the images for every characters except Andy and Sami so as to reduce the time people would have to spend scrolling this page.

Under the Max entry, when I said "Big 3", that refers to Andy, Sami, and Max. Of the three, Max easily had the most important role in Dual Strike (I think he briefed Jake in most missions).

 

[Time/SpaceMage]

Yeah, he just looks like the "brawler" type (if you'll pardon the expression!) I like heavyweight characters so he seems fun to play as.

 

[CardiganBoy]

I can see where you're coming from on this. I think they should retool him to give him a distinct identity and playstyle to differentiate him from Pikachu, but I still agree that he should be the sandbag character who's clearly weaker than the rest of the fighters.

It's nice to see some Mother love as well. The series is good on playable character representation with Ness and Lucas IMO, but it would still be great to see cameos from other characters like Paula, Jeff, Poo, Duster, Kumatora, Flint, and others. Even extra cameos from relatively obscure characters like Apple Kid, Dr. Andonuts, the Runaway Five, the Tendas, Flying Men, and some of the enemies (New Age Retro Hippies, Starmen, Belch, etc).

Is a Moonside stage at all feasible? If not another stage based on Twoson, or the Cave of the Past.

I was seriously miffed that Paula and Poo didn't even get trophies in Brawl (when Ness' whole posse all got trophies in Melee).

Yeah, i hated that in Brawl they gave us a poor selection of Earthbound/Mother Trophies, and is not the only franchise that suffers poor trophy selection....

 

[red9rd]

Thanks I appreciate it. As I said in the piece, many Nintendo fans today are unfamiliar with the series due to the hiatus it has been on (its last installment was released in January 2008).

I took out the images for every characters except Andy and Sami so as to reduce the time people would have to spend scrolling this page.

Under the Max entry, when I said "Big 3", that refers to Andy, Sami, and Max. Of the three, Max easily had the most important role in Dual Strike (I think he briefed Jake in most missions).

Didn't it get a Gamecube and Wii release?

 

[ChronoBound]

Didn't it get a Gamecube and Wii release?

Those are the Battalion Wars games of the Wars franchise. They were both developed by Kuju Entertainment (instead of Intelligent Systems), and a real time strategy as opposed to turn based. The first one was released in 2005, while the second one was released in 2007.

 

[OmegaMuffin]

I was really tired when I made my "suggestion". I thought about it in class and was wondering what I could have possibly been thinking lol. My inner Sonic fan came out. I apologize.

Either way, I think Mewtwo and Roy should be fine for now. The PMBR should poll it up or something with characters they deem most worthy of a spot. Or someone should. That's the best way instead of a thread full of people making suggestions and then getting bashed or getting praise and then the post getting forgotten.

 

[Chzrm3]

I was really tired when I made my "suggestion". I thought about it in class and was wondering what I could have possibly been thinking lol. My inner Sonic fan came out. I apologize.

Either way, I think Mewtwo and Roy should be fine for now. The PMBR should poll it up or something with characters they deem most worthy of a spot. Or someone should. That's the best way instead of a thread full of people making suggestions and then getting bashed or getting praise and then the post getting forgotten.

For what it's worth, I actually have two Amy model swaps in my game. One's Amy over Link, and the other's Amy over Dedede. She's really fun to play as - something about the character makes it really satisfying to whack people in the face with that hammer, hahaha.

 

[ChronoBound]

I was really tired when I made my "suggestion". I thought about it in class and was wondering what I could have possibly been thinking lol. My inner Sonic fan came out. I apologize.

Either way, I think Mewtwo and Roy should be fine for now. The PMBR should poll it up or something with characters they deem most worthy of a spot. Or someone should. That's the best way instead of a thread full of people making suggestions and then getting bashed or getting praise and then the post getting forgotten.

The problem with a poll is that it could easily be overrun depending on how organized a character's fanbase is.

Also, I didn't mean to sound harsh about your suggestion, but Amy is a pretty bizarre request even in the context of a second Sonic character. Also, personally I find Amy's modern design (probably the worst one to come out of Sonic Adventure) disturbing.

 

[MVP]

no they really are releasing pichu its true I swear

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Z92MxCndZa4#t=121

 

[Solbliminal]

I was really tired when I made my "suggestion". I thought about it in class and was wondering what I could have possibly been thinking lol. My inner Sonic fan came out. I apologize.

Either way, I think Mewtwo and Roy should be fine for now. The PMBR should poll it up or something with characters they deem most worthy of a spot. Or someone should. That's the best way instead of a thread full of people making suggestions and then getting bashed or getting praise and then the post getting forgotten.

As I mentioned in the page before, I'm not against your suggestion. If anything, I applaud you for having suggested despite knowing how most people would react. No one should have to feel withdrawn from making comments just because something isn't their taste. Everyone entitled to their own opinion. If you like Amy that much, you shouldn't pull back just because someone is trying to convince you that your choice is poor. Your suggestion is fine. Amy did meet the criteria.

 

[EdgeTheLucas]

actually from what I remember you didn't really get to play as flint much, you just walked to Alecs (Lucas's Grandpa) house that's it. I think you spend as much time playing Duster as you do Lucas. As for what TheedgeofLucas about the MaskedMan How the hell did you not know who the Maskedman was the first second he came on screen but you knew who sheik was.

I was engrossed in how the story was presented and letting it flow through me, that's why. I didn't want to think too hard about the actual plot so i could focus on the emotion going on instead. Though also, just remember that Melee was released just 3 years after Ocarina of Time, a game that was considered by many to be one of the best games ever. You're telling me you weren't at least a little ticked that Sakurai didn't wait more than 3 years to spoil what could've been a plot point as precious as, I don't know, the end of Shadow of the Colossus?

It's a great twist that still isn't widely known despite coming from an 8 year old game--though one could infer that the game wouldve ended that way by seeing what the game made you do, and the mood and distraught surrounding it. But would you like it if a superpopular fighting game spoiled it for you anyway? So just because a twist might be from your point of view "obvious" like the Masked Man's identity doesn't mean it should be more widely circulated anyway. Especially with a currently Japan-only title that can only be played in English through illegal means Lastly while you said Masked Man's identity was obvious I appreciate your choice not to reveal it to everyone else on this forum by referring to him by his real name.

I played Mother 3 knowing Porky would be in it thanks to Super Smash Bros. Brawl, and though it didn't affect my playthrough too much, wouldn't it have been better if the M3 spoilers were kept out completely from it? I mean SSBB pissed a lot of us Mother fans with the amount of spoilers in it, no need to include another, is what I'm saying alright?

 

[UberAndrew]

I was thinking, everyone really wants Ganondorf to have his own moveset but then there's tons of people who want him to stay how he is. What if they made a new Ganondorf moveset (Most likely with Sword) and had it be accessible like how Zero Suit Samus is, by holding the shoulder buttons when selecting him? It'd take up a new character slot but they wouldn't have to add him to the character select screen.

 

[l3thargy]

if they gave ganon's moveset to a character like black shadow and made ganon a more tp oot inspired one there is literally nothing stopping someone from placing a ganon texture on black shadow that way you still have clone ganon and you get a shiny new ganon with all the trimmings :D so I really don't see what's to lose here :/

 

[red9rd]

what about his bad ass trident.

 

[Anti Guy]

what about his bad *** trident.

Ganon uses the trident, not Ganondorf.

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

Wow, then his whole playstyle would revolve around that one move (I can imagine Kirby using it now holy s*** lol). Yeah while the energy reflecting tennis would be cool, it makes him a sort of risk/reward character which I personally don't think would suit Ganon too much. The thing I was talking about would have the energy ball you mentioned work like Dedede's hammer (again, it could use the properties) in that you can walk around and jump while holding it but would be forced to fire it as a projectile (maybe angled, maybe not) anyway very quickly. I should mention that Ganon's holding it right above his head, so if it had a hitbox while being held (like Lucario's or Mewtwo's energy ball) it could make for some cool juggling or below-opponent possibilities. Like finally grabbing somebody with a presumably bad grab range he'd have to be rewarded with an up throw that could lead in to jumping up and holding the energy ball on him or her for a combo with good knockback. It would make Ganon tricky yet brutish, which I think fits him better as a character and a fighter.

Oh I actually love that idea.. being able to walk while holding the charge would be awesome.. I'd keep everything else I said and add that to it
And the trcky/brutish play style is what i would go for as well!

Now, I see what you mean about the reflecting projectile would make it a risky move, but I think that would just be an interesting twist while being true to his actual move in all his past games. Which btw (not to bash your comment at all) how would that not suit him? What I've illustrated is 100% true to the way that move has worked in a ton of previous games. It's an iconic move and that would suit him completely lol. So I'm not 100% sure what you mean by it not suiting him..

 

[EdgeTheLucas]

Oh I actually love that idea.. being able to walk while holding the charge would be awesome.. I'd keep everything else I said and add that to it
And the trcky/brutish play style is what i would go for as well!

Now, I see what you mean about the reflecting projectile would make it a risky move, but I think that would just be an interesting twist while being true to his actual move in all his past games. Which btw (not to bash your comment at all) how would that not suit him? What I've illustrated is 100% true to the way that move has worked in a ton of previous games. It's an iconic move and that would suit him completely lol. So I'm not 100% sure what you mean by it not suiting him..

I know that's how the attack worked in ALttP and OoT, that wasn't my point. I was only trying to point out that he usually has so much power to do what he wants in his games (wielder of the Triforce of Power and such) that he doesn't really have to take risks to get anything, just finding where what he neefs is (pointy-eared girls in WW) and figuring out a plan on how to do it (waiting for Link to just get tje spirit stoned for him in OoT). Keeping this in mind, I naturally assumed he should focus on stage control with lots of power while keeping opponents on their toes with his energy attack, so I didn't think it would've needed any tennis properties.

Now that I read your post again, though, I realize that your idea could indeed work well with my idea, it's just that yours would probably be much harder to code into the game. But, assuming that the attack would be easy to implement I think both of our ideas fused together DBZ style would create a hell of a character!

I also thought of a down-B: his Warlock Punch. Remember how he gradually broke the floor in OoT? After floating for a while he'd slam his fist into the floor causing an earthquake. So the Warlock Punch actually wasn't a copied attack from CF! It could work like Wario's down smash if used from the ground but could be a powerful lunge attack from the air.

More ideas? (This is fun btw never lurking again)

 

[loganhogan]

I probably should have spent more time on the presentation to my Advance Wars post or broken it down into sections. I am afraid the poor presentation may make it unreadable for many.

It was a very informative post and I enjoyed it, i've learned that it is a series that has a much longer history than I initially thought. Anyhow based of the character selection you picked for the Wars series in my opinion the generic soldier or Sami seem the most fit as a Snake based character due to their characters portrayal being more synonymous with war mechanisms such as the weapons Snake handles. The rest of the characters seem more passive, Andy looks like he's better fit as a mechanic, Max looks like he'd use his brute force like Donkey Kong. Out of the two, Sami and the soldier, Sami has a cooler design than the soldier but any of them would be a win/win situation.

 

[KayRule]

I think alot of people are stopping at "needs to be in the game as a trophy or sticker" when making some of their suggestions, and not really taking into account the work and limitations that come with the Clone Engine. I don't think it's bad to want all of these characters, don't get me wrong, I'd love to see them to, but some (not all) posters in this thread seem to be looking at who fits the first guideline as opposed to what existing movesets could be expanded upon in the form of clones/semi-clones, and then looking at who can fit those play styles. With the announcement of Mewtwo we've seen the a good look at how far you can go with it, but even transcribing and recreating animations from Melee takes alot of work. I see people dismissing Pichu, but he's a perfect candidate for the limitations of the Clone Engine, as well as being the only Melee veteran who hasn't returned.

A fast Pikachu with a small hurtbox is appealing, and with the way PMBR has been retooling many characters successfully, they could create a very interesting character. They could even retool the self-harm into a new system. For every Thundershock Pichu does and hurts himself, he could gain Static which could power up his normals and add shock frames to his smash attacks. Using Thunder could release the charge, with no charge being the base Thunder, but a half or full charge becoming a powerful attack, creating a high-risk, high-reward character with a fast paced fight style.

As for other fight-styles that could be expanded with clones, I've always felt a Samus clone could be really interesting - although the FAQ has stated Samus is a little more difficult to work with, so this may not be viable. Whether it be a lighter and faster Fusion Suit Samus, or maybe a heavier powerhouse out of Dark Samus, a Samus clone by PMBR would be a real treat. Although we have the ground covered quite well with Ness and Lucas, I wouldn't mind a 3rd counterpart (similair to Fox, Falco, Wolfs dynamics), since the Earthbound kids have always been real fun to play with their versatile toolsets. There's a Ninten sticker if they wanted to hit all 3 protagonists, but even another PSI user like Paula would be fine. There are even some Project M characters that have interesting movesets to look at in terms of possible clones, such as the new Wario and Pit movesets.

Nothing really specific I know, but just sort of adding my 2 cents. The only thing I feel really strongly about is the appearance of a viable Pichu.

 

[Nausicaa]

^ Proper reasoning and direction of discussion (outside of 'popularity/iconic choices' and stuff), because this...

Having an existing character with similar body structure and proportions goes a long way in easing the animation workload. In Roy's case, his bone structure is very similar to Marth's, reducing the workload on the more mundane and obscure animations (item interactions, ladder climbing, water interactions, sleep, etc) thus allowing our animators to focus more on the main animations you'd see regularly. The similarity in body structure allows us to take one character's movement file (fitxxxxmotionetc.pac) and use it as a solid base for the clone character's animations.

The same principle goes for the moveset (PSA) file; we use a file that best serves as a base for the clone character as build from there. Special Move layout/properties and Articles are the two main considerations here:

- Most specials have properties called Floats that define how that particular special behaves. Changing the values of these floats enables us to change these specials in very big ways; this along with normal PSA coding allows us a great deal of creative freedom in turning it into a different special all-around.

- Articles I suppose can best be described as outside props that characters use within their moveset. Ness's PK Thunder, Snake's Nikita, Mario's Fireball, and Fox's Blaster are all articles; they spawn them when the coding calls for it and then they're removed. They all have their own separate attributes and are notoriously difficult to modify so in many cases we must strongly consider the original character's article properties if we wish to make the clone character use these articles in their movesets. We also cannot add or create custom articles, so whatever the article amount a certain character possesses is the amount we have to work with.

Keep in mind we can use one character's animation file while using a different character's moveset files. So with your Bowser Jr. examples, Nausicaa:

1) Though they're both turtle-y Squirtle's body proportions are pretty different from Bowser Jr.'s and so each animation, even the mundane ones you hardly see, would have to be substantially modified to not look choppy and plain weird.

2) Using Bowser's animations as a base would likely be more suiting; with a very similar body shape I imagine the bulk of Bowser's animations to match just fine after fine-tuning translations to account for Jr.'s smaller size.

3) Bowser Jr. having Mario's moveset files could very well work; that'd mean he'd have access to FLUDD, fireball, cape, and Final Smash articles as well as inherit the coding behind Mario's specials and normals.

So theoretically you could start out Bowser Jr. with Mario's moveset and Bowser's animations and build from there. Keep in mind however that even with a solid base like this the workload that goes into animations and coding is immense (we're not joking when we say hundreds of hours!); this simply means the huge workload becomes only marginally less... huge.


This of course only scratches the surface on the exact requirements that factor into a character's selection but I hope it helps clear the air somewhat.

I'd actually love to see a list of Character Suggestion + Reasoning Origin + Building Base + Game-Play Concept going on here.
Get it all done in some organization, at least to speculate, because that's all this is, and it's healthy and fun! :D

 

[Solbliminal]

I think alot of people are stopping at "needs to be in the game as a trophy or sticker" when making some of their suggestions, and not really taking into account the work and limitations that come with the Clone Engine. I don't think it's bad to want all of these characters, don't get me wrong, I'd love to see them to, but some (not all) posters in this thread seem to be looking at who fits the first guideline as opposed to what existing movesets could be expanded upon in the form of clones/semi-clones, and then looking at who can fit those play styles. With the announcement of Mewtwo we've seen the a good look at how far you can go with it, but even transcribing and recreating animations from Melee takes alot of work. I see people dismissing Pichu, but he's a perfect candidate for the limitations of the Clone Engine, as well as being the only Melee veteran who hasn't returned.

A fast Pikachu with a small hurtbox is appealing, and with the way PMBR has been retooling many characters successfully, they could create a very interesting character. They could even retool the self-harm into a new system. For every Thundershock Pichu does and hurts himself, he could gain Static which could power up his normals and add shock frames to his smash attacks. Using Thunder could release the charge, with no charge being the base Thunder, but a half or full charge becoming a powerful attack, creating a high-risk, high-reward character with a fast paced fight style.

As for other fight-styles that could be expanded with clones, I've always felt a Samus clone could be really interesting - although the FAQ has stated Samus is a little more difficult to work with, so this may not be viable. Whether it be a lighter and faster Fusion Suit Samus, or maybe a heavier powerhouse out of Dark Samus, a Samus clone by PMBR would be a real treat. Although we have the ground covered quite well with Ness and Lucas, I wouldn't mind a 3rd counterpart (similair to Fox, Falco, Wolfs dynamics), since the Earthbound kids have always been real fun to play with their versatile toolsets. There's a Ninten sticker if they wanted to hit all 3 protagonists, but even another PSI user like Paula would be fine. There are even some Project M characters that have interesting movesets to look at in terms of possible clones, such as the new Wario and Pit movesets.

Nothing really specific I know, but just sort of adding my 2 cents. The only thing I feel really strongly about is the appearance of a viable Pichu.

There are more reasons than just "because he is a bad clone". 7 pokemon already occupy slots. That is more than any series in the game. Not many people will support a character that hardly has importance compared to a character who does it better (Ala Pichu just being Pikachu's pre-evolution. It is also reflected in his inferior playstyle). While I personally don't care who they add, 8 characters from a single franchise is a bit overkill. Even for me. Pichu is probably my only complaint for viable character choices. I still won't gripe if that is what P:M chooses though, since it ultimately is their decision.

 

[Solbliminal]

Edit: Sorry, I was using my cellphone and it double posted.

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

Sakurai very likely will not hear that petition no likely how big it gets, and secondly, he probably is working on Ganondorf as we speak.

Like I said, I think its for the best to wait and see what Sakurai does with Smash 4. I think at the very least Ganondorf is going to have more different moves this time than he did in Brawl.

Well if people think like that and don't sign there's even less of a chance! I wana get lots of people to sign, and see if I can post it somewhere he may more likely notice it, or see if I can find another way to make him see it.

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

I know that's how the attack worked in ALttP and OoT, that wasn't my point. I was only trying to point out that he usually has so much power to do what he wants in his games (wielder of the Triforce of Power and such) that he doesn't really have to take risks to get anything, just finding where what he neefs is (pointy-eared girls in WW) and figuring out a plan on how to do it (waiting for Link to just get tje spirit stoned for him in OoT). Keeping this in mind, I naturally assumed he should focus on stage control with lots of power while keeping opponents on their toes with his energy attack, so I didn't think it would've needed any tennis properties.

Now that I read your post again, though, I realize that your idea could indeed work well with my idea, it's just that yours would probably be much harder to code into the game. But, assuming that the attack would be easy to implement I think both of our ideas fused together DBZ style would create a hell of a character!

I also thought of a down-B: his Warlock Punch. Remember how he gradually broke the floor in OoT? After floating for a while he'd slam his fist into the floor causing an earthquake. So the Warlock Punch actually wasn't a copied attack from CF! It could work like Wario's down smash if used from the ground but could be a powerful lunge attack from the air.

More ideas? (This is fun btw never lurking again)

Yeah, I do realize my ideas get super complex and could be impossible to code. I have no idea how many of those things are possible and how many aren't.
And as for the warlock punch, that's exactly what I was thinking. I think i mentioned a ground pound move like in OOT in my original post (the one that everyone started arguing about). But ya that would def be super awesome.
BTW, I'd also be fine with keeping his sparta kick and AirF attack (swinging punch in the air).

 

[Anti Guy]

^ Proper reasoning and direction of discussion (outside of 'popularity/iconic choices' and stuff), because this...



I'd actually love to see a list of Character Suggestion + Reasoning Origin + Building Base + Game-Play Concept going on here.
Get it all done in some organization, at least to speculate, because that's all this is, and it's healthy and fun! :D

I didn't cover building base and gameplay concept (to leave that flexible for the creator's imagination) for some of them, but...

Click arrow above

 

[CardiganBoy]

I just wanna say, i think its fine with 7 pokemons already.

 

[AnOkayDM]

I think seven Pokémon is unjustifiable, but I'd rather have Mewtwo than not have Mewtwo and there's no one to cut. Plus they weren't gonna cut anyone anyway.

 

[QQQQQQQ7777777]

I think seven Pokémon is unjustifiable, but I'd rather have Mewtwo than not have Mewtwo and there's no one to cut. Plus they weren't gonna cut anyone anyway.

well we are talking about a series with over 700 possible candidates.

 

[Tuvillo]

I'm quite sure you're not unhappy enough with the large amount of Pokemon to want them back as Pokemon Trainer, so why complain?

Blaziken would be so good if we didn't already have 7.

 

[Solbliminal]

I think seven Pokémon is unjustifiable, but I'd rather have Mewtwo than not have Mewtwo and there's no one to cut. Plus they weren't gonna cut anyone anyway.

I'm neutral about it mostly. Though I feel there are better choices than jigglypuff that Nintendo could've went for.

 

[820]

I'd actually love to see a list of Character Suggestion + Reasoning Origin + Building Base + Game-Play Concept going on here.

Okay, I'll try my best.
PAPER MARIO

REASONS:
Paper Mario hasn't been a very popular suggestion so far, but he should be. He's been the star of four popular games, games that are extremely distinct from the rest of the Mario franchise. (If you changed the characters, you really wouldn't be able to tell it was ever a Mario game.) At this point, the Paper Mario series is it's own entity, much more so than the difference between Link vs. Toon Link. So really, Paper Mario would represent his own series. The only knock I can think of is, for people who believe he doesn't qualify for his own series, that the Mario series is "over-represented" , but that simply isn't true. Wario, Yoshi, and the Kongs all represent their own series, so Mario only has 4 true representatives. This, in comparison to the seven that Pokemon has, is reasonable. So he would still only be the fifth true Mario rep, which is a fairly small number for the largest franchise in the game.
BUILDING BASE/CREATION:
Paper Mario has a unique, 2D design that would make basing him of his plumper, 3D counterpart impossible. Luckily, we have our own 2D smasher that would serve as a perfect template: Mr. Game and Watch. In fact, it's almost eerie how well Paper Mario would work as a GW clone. I mean... does this remind you of anything?

Paper Mario could be a heavier, stronger Game and Watch, with quite a bit of variation in moves of course. There's already some pretty nice looking Paper Mario models over GW in the BrawlVault. The only real projectiles he would need could be easily based off of existing articles, like fireballs/fireflower effects
Plus his model wouldn't take too much work I'd imagine, and his animations would be somewhat limited due to the nature of his design.
GAMEPLAY:
As I touched on briefly, he could have some attacks based off of GW (mostly an hammer based attacks, and other attacks such as f-smash could be re-done with a hammer) as well as incorporate parts of Mario (fireballs with an upward arc a-la GW's frying pan? A mix of GW and Mario's up-smash?) Plus all of the items, attacks and helpers from his games. (Parakarry recovery? Bombette grenades?) I'm not sure what's entirely possible, but the PMBR has quite a bit to go off of from the games, and I'm sure they could create a unique but still technically feasible move-set.
CONCLUSION:
Paper Mario has the legacy, clone-ability, and uniqueness that makes him a better choice for Project M than many characters. The PMBR could realistically do him justice, and he has a definite place in Nintendo history that this incarnation would be worth it. Overall, I hope this post makes more people reconsider Paper Mario, as I believe he would be a fantastic addition to Project M.

 

[Chzrm3]

A fast Pikachu with a small hurtbox is appealing, and with the way PMBR has been retooling many characters successfully, they could create a very interesting character. They could even retool the self-harm into a new system. For every Thundershock Pichu does and hurts himself, he could gain Static which could power up his normals and add shock frames to his smash attacks. Using Thunder could release the charge, with no charge being the base Thunder, but a half or full charge becoming a powerful attack, creating a high-risk, high-reward character with a fast paced fight style.

As for other fight-styles that could be expanded with clones, I've always felt a Samus clone could be really interesting - although the FAQ has stated Samus is a little more difficult to work with, so this may not be viable. Whether it be a lighter and faster Fusion Suit Samus, or maybe a heavier powerhouse out of Dark Samus, a Samus clone by PMBR would be a real treat. Although we have the ground covered quite well with Ness and Lucas, I wouldn't mind a 3rd counterpart (similair to Fox, Falco, Wolfs dynamics), since the Earthbound kids have always been real fun to play with their versatile toolsets. There's a Ninten sticker if they wanted to hit all 3 protagonists, but even another PSI user like Paula would be fine. There are even some Project M characters that have interesting movesets to look at in terms of possible clones, such as the new Wario and Pit movesets.

Nothing really specific I know, but just sort of adding my 2 cents. The only thing I feel really strongly about is the appearance of a viable Pichu.

Haha, I pretty much agree with everything you said! Samus and EB would be great candidates for clones, and I think I'm actually one of the few people that also wants to see Pichu come back. : > I definitely understand why people say "there are enough pokemon", but at the same time, the playstyle of being self-destructive was really unique and interesting.

There's so many cool things they could do for a third Mother character, too. We were talking about Jeff as a Snake clone before, and there's also the opportunity to do Poo or Kumatora as more physical versions of Ness or Lucas. I have no idea who they could base Flint off of, but he's pretty great too!

 

[PseudoTypical]

Okay, I'll try my best.
PAPER MARIO

I have to say: I was against the idea of Paper Mario before I read your post, but now I'd be totally okay with it. He seems like he'd be an awesome character to have, even though there are more popular choices to consider. Very well writen.