New Characters for Project M Discussion Thread (Voting Closed)

[Ali Baba 177]

I wish this thread was turned real

 

[caldw19940]

+1 votes

1. Paper Mario
2. Bowser Jr. - I would strongly consider making him more than just a smaller version of Bowser's moveset. Make him his own character, focusing more on the paintbrush aspect and possibly even some of the Koopaling attacks like spinning around in his shell (Squirtle's withdraw?).
3. Lyn
4. Hector
5. Isaac

+1/2 votes

1. Skull Kid
2. Ridley
3. Masked Man/Claus
4. Knuckles - He would be much more of a physical brawler...almost like a variation of Little Mac? Gliding could also be incorporated to make him unique
5. Shadow - Focus on chaos attacks to differentiate him from Sonic

-1 votes

1. Black Shadow/Ganondorf - Ganondorf's current moveset and playstyle are already widely accepted, so reskinning him so Black Shadow would only confuse people. Also, the F-Zero series (other than Falcon) does not have a very large fan base comparatively, so adding Black Shadow would ultimately be appealing more to those who want a new Ganondorf moveset than those actually wanting to see him in the game.

I dunno about people being confused about Black Shadow, if the person is smart enough to go through the effort of getting Project M installed (or install a version for PAL users to use which takes more effort) I think they'd be smart enough to know what would change by installing it or at least have looked up prior to installing it in order to know Black Shadow would replace Ganon and then Ganon become his own new moveset character.

 

[caldw19940]

I don't see him being any harder than anyone else. He'd start off as a M2 clone and then the PMBR would work their way from there.

Devil's Machine would be cool. Not sure if the PMBR is looking to add stage gimmicks, it would probably be a tiny cameo if anything.

My only objection to having a Giygas themed stage would be for similar reasons I object to Masked Man's appearance in that it would be a giant spoiler. As cool as it would be I wouldn't be too happy at it spoiling the game for anyone interested in playing the Mother series some day, especially considering how you have to experience the games first hand to truly get it.

That's just my opinion though.

 

[MangoNation]

Again, this is one of the exact reasons I don't want Dark Samus, the concept of her/it being a faster/stronger Samus. Someone called me out on the fact that I just don't like Samu's gameplay, and yeah, I'll own up to that. I played way too many people who just camp the edge and do nothing but spam her projectiles over and over again. But I still don't think we need a second Samus.

Ridley on the other hand, I'm all over that if only for the originality factor. Yeah, I know the P:M team are going to have to work hard to render a Ridley from scratch, but I don't think a character should be discredited due to possible issue with making their model. I don't see "they can just recolor such and such character" as a good reason at all for a character's inclusion.

Also, on a different subject, any note if the Demo games in Brawl count as those characters being in the code yet?

But doesn't that apply to Falco aswell? He basically has the 90% same exact moveset as fox except, His shine launches upwards and his side-b spikes and his Dair spikes aswell. Pretty much the 90% same as fox. But how would it be different for Samus and Dark samus?

 

[Original Plan]

Sonic tier got no love. Amazing lmao

 

[Roxas215]

Bowser JR,Krystal,Pichu are my votes.

 

[MM3K]

Were the votes of my last post counted? (I mean the very cynical anti-downvotes post)

Regardless, is there a limit to half-votes? Because if I recall correctly, they weren't limited when Anti-guy (that's the tomato-guy, right?) was running this show. Anyway my half-votes are:

Ninten (need to have a similar number of characters in Traditional JRPGs Franchises, that is, Mother and Fire Emblem)
Masked Man (same reasoning as above, but not both, that would also be asymmetrical)
Skull Kid (he can be used, right?)
Sukapon (he's by no means iconic and can easily be disregarded as a character, but at the same time he's fairly simple appearance-wise, and could be developed rather easily, at least in that regard)

I know none of those are already in the game, and I've already made an argument against those types of characters, but these are half-votes, so it isn't so hypocritical, is it?

 

[Shin F.]

Were the votes of my last post counted? (I mean the very cynical anti-downvotes post)

Regardless, is there a limit to half-votes? Because if I recall correctly, they weren't limited when Anti-guy (that's the tomato-guy, right?) was running this show. Anyway my half-votes are:

Ninten (need to have a similar number of characters in Traditional JRPGs Franchises, that is, Mother and Fire Emblem)
Masked Man (same reasoning as above, but not both, that would also be asymmetrical)
Skull Kid (he can be used, right?)
Sukapon (he's by no means iconic and can easily be disregarded as a character, but at the same time he's fairly simple appearance-wise, and could be developed rather easily, at least in that regard)

I know none of those are already in the game, and I've already made an argument against those types of characters, but these are half-votes, so it isn't so hypocritical, is it?

They were counted, and yes, you're correct that half-votes are still unlimited. The rules haven't changed, just the people counting the data.

 

[DatDolphin]

Again, this is one of the exact reasons I don't want Dark Samus, the concept of her/it being a faster/stronger Samus. Someone called me out on the fact that I just don't like Samu's gameplay, and yeah, I'll own up to that. I played way too many people who just camp the edge and do nothing but spam her projectiles over and over again. But I still don't think we need a second Samus.

The thing is, Dark Samus isn't EXACTLY like Samus. Under your logic, we should remove Falco. He is LITERALLY Fox with a different model and properties.

Dark Samus can hover, use a Phazon beam, phazon shield to deflect attacks, she has two charge beam variants, turn invisible, summon Dark Echoes to attack, create a shockwave of Phazon energy, and can straight up disappear and reappear in a burst of Phazon. Dark Samus has more than enough unique powers to become different than Samus.

 

[MangoNation]

The thing is, Dark Samus isn't EXACTLY like Samus. Under your logic, we should remove Falco. He is LITERALLY Fox with a different model and properties.

Dark Samus can hover, use a Phazon beam, phazon shield to deflect attacks, she has two charge beam variants, turn invisible, summon Dark Echoes to attack, create a shockwave of Phazon energy, and can straight up disappear and reappear in a burst of Phazon. Dark Samus has more than enough unique powers to become different than Samus.

 

[Sour Supreme]

My only objection to having a Giygas themed stage would be for similar reasons I object to Masked Man's appearance in that it would be a giant spoiler. As cool as it would be I wouldn't be too happy at it spoiling the game for anyone interested in playing the Mother series some day, especially considering how you have to experience the games first hand to truly get it.

That's just my opinion though.

I see what you mean. In defense of Masked Man, as long as he is called Masked Man and not Claus there are absolutely no spoiling qualities.

 

[Anti Guy]

Again, this is one of the exact reasons I don't want Dark Samus, the concept of her/it being a faster/stronger Samus. Someone called me out on the fact that I just don't like Samu's gameplay, and yeah, I'll own up to that. I played way too many people who just camp the edge and do nothing but spam her projectiles over and over again. But I still don't think we need a second Samus.

Ridley on the other hand, I'm all over that if only for the originality factor. Yeah, I know the P:M team are going to have to work hard to render a Ridley from scratch, but I don't think a character should be discredited due to possible issue with making their model. I don't see "they can just recolor such and such character" as a good reason at all for a character's inclusion.

Also, on a different subject, any note if the Demo games in Brawl count as those characters being in the code yet?

Here's one very important thing to consider: when choosing a character for the last slots, it's not just about what you want (which is what this poll shows), it's also what is easiest for the PMBR. You basically don't like the concept of a clone character (and as DatDolphin pointed out, we already have quite a few already), but here are some key one points about clones:

1. The PMBR is not Sakurai. They don't have god powers that create characters from scratch. Many of these characters, like Isaac, are presented as if they were to be from scratch. There are many, many limitations. Clone characters do not have these limitations.

2. Animations: These are probably the most time-consuming thing. New characters will need a ton of time for new animations. Clone characters reuse animations. Maybe a few moves or walking/running animations can be edited, but not the whole character. Huge burden reduced.

3. Movesets: There are actually TWO factors with movesets: 1) Coming up with one -- which again, is minimized with clone characters -- you just change parameters and change 1-2 few moves. 2) Balance. People are familiar with these movesets that have been used for years. Creating a new one from scratch not only takes a lot of time to create, but it may take even longer to balance. If a moveset is based on an old one, balance will still need a lot of time, but considerably less compared to a novel moveset.

With so many restraints, the PMBR will undoubtedly have clone characters. They even said that's ideal in their post. Maybe even all the new characters would be clones.

So maybe you don't like Dark Samus, but when we have to choose characters that are clones, she is one of the better choices. The fact that the character can be implemented AS one is may seem like a big con for you, but it's a tremendous pro to the PMBR.

 

[Original Plan]

Here's one very important thing to consider: when choosing a character for the last slots, it's not just about what you want (which is what this poll shows), it's also what is easiest for the PMBR. You basically don't like the concept of a clone character (and as DatDolphin pointed out, we already have quite a few already), but here are some key one points about clones:

1. The PMBR is not Sakurai. They don't have god powers that create characters from scratch. Many of these characters, like Isaac, are presented as if they were to be from scratch. There are many, many limitations. Clone characters do not have these limitations.

2. Animations: These are probably the most time-consuming thing. New characters will need a ton of time for new animations. Clone characters reuse animations. Maybe a few moves or walking/running animations can be edited, but not the whole character. Huge burden reduced.

3. Movesets: There are actually TWO factors with movesets: 1) Coming up with one -- which again, is minimized with clone characters -- you just change parameters and change 1-2 few moves. 2) Balance. People are familiar with these movesets that have been used for years. Creating a new one from scratch not only takes a lot of time to create, but it may take even longer to balance. If a moveset is based on an old one, balance will still need a lot of time, but considerably less compared to a novel moveset.

With so many restraints, the PMBR will undoubtedly have clone characters. They even said that's ideal in their post. Maybe even all the new characters would be clones.

So maybe you don't like Dark Samus, but when we have to choose characters that are clones, she is one of the better choices. The fact that the character can be implemented AS one is may seem like a big con for you, but it's a tremendous pro to the PMBR.

Interesting. Hmm, when will we be able to get the characters?

 

[DatDolphin]

Interesting. Hmm, when will we be able to get the characters?

I believe the OP mentions a character taking about 700 hours to create. So if they were to start today, each character would take about 29 days. Basically, it takes too long.

 

[Anti Guy]

I believe the OP mentions a character taking about 700 hours to create. So if they were to start today, each character would take about 29 days. Basically, it takes too long.

That was Mewtwo, whose moveset was already defined, and his original model could be used as reference for animations and modeling. A character from scratch would take much, much longer. A clone character would probably just be a couple hundred hours longer.

 

[Saito]

Interesting. Hmm, when will we be able to get the characters?

Here's something I said a while back.

I'm actually more concerned when something will be finalized.

Assuming that they spend 600 hours at the least on a character (it will definitely be 600 or more unless it's Pichu), they would probably only spend about 3-5 a day working on the character. This is accounting for everything that may cause delays other than file corruption. At that rate it would take them 120-200 days to get something finalized.

Meaning if they started working on a character right now it would be done anywhere from September 9th 2014 - November 28th 2014.

From my own assumptions, they probably don't want to work on something and have it potentially scrapped due to a character being in Smash 4. I want to say that they won't make a final character choice till Smash 4 comes out.

Assuming that Smash comes out late summer, let's just say July 25th for whatever reason a new character would be done anywhere from November 22th 2014 - February 10th 2015.

That's not even taking into account the extra time it will take to make a unique character.

Assuming they started working today they would be done anywhere from October 3rd 2014 - December 22nd 2014

 

[Anti Guy]

Here's something I said a while back.



Assuming they started working today they would be done anywhere from October 3rd 2014 - December 22nd 2014

We're not exactly sure what XXX hours means though.

Is it total hours from start to finish, including non-productive time?
Is it total productive-time overall?
Is it total man-hours of productive time?

If it's the last, then you can at least divide that by how many people were working on it at a time.

 

[Saito]

Interesting question.

I intend to figure that out.

 

[Zapster]

My votes are:

Daisy-- She could be a hi-octane clone of Peach that has a faster aerial jump with better vertical speed in the air but no float ability or turnips. If she doesn't have turnips she should have a meteor strike for her down air so she can still finish off the stage opponents at times when Peach would gimp with a turnip. She would run faster and maybe give her only the tennis side smash and have that able to reflect projectiles. I'd prefer her to NOT be in a dress and have her run fast. Like a captain Falcon or Sonic like Peach. People have been wanting her in since Melee and let's face it, shes not getting into a Sakurai made game anytime soon. Plus Peach was a top tier character in Melee that was good but really struggled against characters with fast ground mobility

Toon Zelda-- I don't really care for the character but given Zelda is a more glass cannon type I think having a smaller size and being more agile would make Toon Zelda a powerful character. Plus it would be easier to sweetspot with her smaller size.

Ridley-- I just have always wanted Ridley in Smash but if he's too hard to do then Dark Samus would be fine

K. Rool-- Another DK character would be cool especially another heavy weight villain. he could bring some diversity to the roster

Bowser Jr.-- He could either be a clone or have an original moveset so it would allow PMBR to do what they have time for or whats best for the balance of the game. Plus that would bring the super mario series up to 6 with Daisy so it wouldn't seem like Nintendo's flagship series is so outnumbered by Pokemon and Zelda characters. Plus Bowser jr and Daisy would be really easy for PMBR to do.

I hope you guys really consider my votes! I really thought them out :D

 

[Original Plan]

We're not exactly sure what XXX hours means though.

Is it total hours from start to finish, including non-productive time?
Is it total productive-time overall?
Is it total man-hours of productive time?

If it's the last, then you can at least divide that by how many people were working on it at a time.

So you think they are working on one right now?

 

[Shin F.]

So you think they are working on one right now?

No one knows.

 

[Saito]

No one knows.

Shadow.

 

[GrizzleDrizz1ed]

Here's one very important thing to consider: when choosing a character for the last slots, it's not just about what you want (which is what this poll shows), it's also what is easiest for the PMBR. You basically don't like the concept of a clone character (and as DatDolphin pointed out, we already have quite a few already), but here are some key one points about clones:

1. The PMBR is not Sakurai. They don't have god powers that create characters from scratch. Many of these characters, like Isaac, are presented as if they were to be from scratch. There are many, many limitations. Clone characters do not have these limitations.

2. Animations: These are probably the most time-consuming thing. New characters will need a ton of time for new animations. Clone characters reuse animations. Maybe a few moves or walking/running animations can be edited, but not the whole character. Huge burden reduced.

3. Movesets: There are actually TWO factors with movesets: 1) Coming up with one -- which again, is minimized with clone characters -- you just change parameters and change 1-2 few moves. 2) Balance. People are familiar with these movesets that have been used for years. Creating a new one from scratch not only takes a lot of time to create, but it may take even longer to balance. If a moveset is based on an old one, balance will still need a lot of time, but considerably less compared to a novel moveset.

With so many restraints, the PMBR will undoubtedly have clone characters. They even said that's ideal in their post. Maybe even all the new characters would be clones.

So maybe you don't like Dark Samus, but when we have to choose characters that are clones, she is one of the better choices. The fact that the character can be implemented AS one is may seem like a big con for you, but it's a tremendous pro to the PMBR.

With all that being said, I'd vote for:

+1
Ridley - As a Charizard based Clone
Bowser Jr - As a Squirtle or Bowser based Clone
King K Rool - As a Dedede based Clone
Paper Mario - As a Game & Watch based Clone
Skull Kid - As a Diddy Kong based Clone

I think these characters are very plausable with these bases for the clone. I had a hard time seeing who would fit Skull Kid but then I thought about Diddy and I imagine their playstyle being similar as well as sharing moves like the cart wheel DA and Nair. His down b wouldn't spawn a Banana but he could throw a Deku seed in front of him. In general, I think it's a perfect match for him.

I've heard rumors of 2 other characters that they are supposedly working on that aren't on my list, but I'll refrain from mentioning unless a backroomer or someone with authourity gives me the ok to mention what I've heard.

 

[Anti Guy]

With all that being said, I'd vote for:

+1
Ridley - As a Charizard based Clone
Bowser Jr - As a Squirtle or Bowser based Clone
King K Rool - As a Dedede based Clone
Paper Mario - As a Game & Watch based Clone
Skull Kid - As a Diddy Kong based Clone

I think these characters are very plausable with these bases for the clone. I had a hard time seeing who would fit Skull Kid but then I thought about Diddy and I imagine their playstyle being similar as well as sharing moves like the cart wheel DA and Nair. His down b wouldn't spawn a Banana but he could throw a Deku seed in front of him. In general, I think it's a perfect match for him.

I've heard rumors of 2 other characters that they are supposedly working on that aren't on my list, but I'll refrain from mentioning unless a backroomer or someone with authourity gives me the ok to mention what I've heard.

I don't think Dedede can have a true clone due to his floatiness, and minions.

Paper Mario wouldn't be a G&W clone, but he'd be based off him.

Diddy Kong cannot be cloned into Skull Kid because their animations don't match at all.

Don't mix up "clone" for a character that heavily draws on another as a base. The latter will still take much, much more work.

 

[cmart]

We're not exactly sure what XXX hours means though.

Is it total hours from start to finish, including non-productive time?
Is it total productive-time overall?
Is it total man-hours of productive time?

If it's the last, then you can at least divide that by how many people were working on it at a time.

XXX is productive hours put into animating said character. It does not include estimates on anything else (modeling, coding, designing, playtesting, balancing, etc).

 

[Saito]

XXX is productive hours put into animating said character. It does not include estimates on anything else (modeling, coding, designing, playtesting, balancing, etc).

Welp, I believe that's safe to say 800 hours or so for a character release.

Can I ask when you guys started working on Mewtwo to get a good estimate?

 

[GrizzleDrizz1ed]

I don't think Dedede can have a true clone due to his floatiness, and minions.

Paper Mario wouldn't be a G&W clone, but he'd be based off him.

Diddy Kong cannot be cloned into Skull Kid because their animations don't match at all.

Don't mix up "clone" for a character that heavily draws on another as a base. The latter will still take much, much more work.

Ok, so if I understand it correctly, a clone is basically a reskin of a character and the properties of that characters attacks are tweaked. Like how Fox and Falco are the same but with tweaks to their attacks and movement.

 

[GrizzleDrizz1ed]

XXX is productive hours put into animating said character. It does not include estimates on anything else (modeling, coding, designing, playtesting, balancing, etc).

Jeeze... thats a long time... and you guys plan on trying to put out another 5 guys...All I can say is, Do what you want, and Thank You. It's really incredible how much time and effort you put into this project. You all have made this game my favorite game of all time, and it's not even finished yet.

Once again, Thank you.

Now I'll continue to post about things which I don't fully understand and unitentially make unreasonable requests.

And thaks for your patience on that too

 

[Shin F.]

Jeeze... thats a long time... and you guys plan on trying to put out another 5 guys...All I can say is, Do what you want, and Thank You. It's really incredible how much time and effort you put into this project. You all have made this game my favorite game of all time, and it's not even finished yet.

Okay, to clear up a misconception: PMBR has not said that they're going to make 5 characters. They are technically capable of making five characters. They've said that they may fill all 5, or they may not make a single extra character. There is no guarantee either way at this point.

 

[Sour Supreme]

It takes the PMBR approximately 800 hours to make a good quality character.

It takes Warchamp and Strongbad 20 minutes to create an even better quality character.

 

[Saito]

It takes the PMBR approximately 800 hours to make a good quality character.

It takes Warchamp and Strongbad 20 minutes to create an even better quality character.

They are both PMBR from my knowledge.

 

[Sour Supreme]

They are both PMBR from my knowledge.

I'm aware.

 

[Knight Dude]

So, I haven't kept up too much with thread. But if I'd vote for Bowser Jr or Dark Samus if they are still eligible. Especially since the latter was out right de-confirmed. I'm guessing we're not adding any of the Smash 4 characters, for a long, long, long time.

 

[arcticfox8]

My votes are:

Daisy-- She could be a hi-octane clone of Peach that has a faster aerial jump with better vertical speed in the air but no float ability or turnips. If she doesn't have turnips she should have a meteor strike for her down air so she can still finish off the stage opponents at times when Peach would gimp with a turnip. She would run faster and maybe give her only the tennis side smash and have that able to reflect projectiles. I'd prefer her to NOT be in a dress and have her run fast. Like a captain Falcon or Sonic like Peach. People have been wanting her in since Melee and let's face it, shes not getting into a Sakurai made game anytime soon. Plus Peach was a top tier character in Melee that was good but really struggled against characters with fast ground mobility

Toon Zelda-- I don't really care for the character but given Zelda is a more glass cannon type I think having a smaller size and being more agile would make Toon Zelda a powerful character. Plus it would be easier to sweetspot with her smaller size.

Ridley-- I just have always wanted Ridley in Smash but if he's too hard to do then Dark Samus would be fine

K. Rool-- Another DK character would be cool especially another heavy weight villain. he could bring some diversity to the roster

Bowser Jr.-- He could either be a clone or have an original moveset so it would allow PMBR to do what they have time for or whats best for the balance of the game. Plus that would bring the super mario series up to 6 with Daisy so it wouldn't seem like Nintendo's flagship series is so outnumbered by Pokemon and Zelda characters. Plus Bowser jr and Daisy would be really easy for PMBR to do.

I hope you guys really consider my votes! I really thought them out :D

I like you

So, I haven't kept up too much with thread. But if I'd vote for Bowser Jr or Dark Samus if they are still eligible. Especially since the latter was out right de-confirmed. I'm guessing we're not adding any of the Smash 4 characters, for a long, long, long time.

Or at all
http://projectmgame.com/en/news/clone-engine-blogpost-limits-restrictions-and-possibilities

 

[Knight Dude]

I like you

Or at all
http://projectmgame.com/en/news/clone-engine-blogpost-limits-restrictions-and-possibilities

I figured that'd be the case. I understand though.

 

[CBO0tz]

With all this emphasis on the clone engine being capable of only deriving so much from an original character.. My dreams of Slippy joining the Brawl are slowly coming closer to reality.

Also call me crazy for thinking about this.. But I've mapped out where the character icons for new clone slots would go. Specifically where all the characters I hope get created and added go.
Here's the current character list for reference. http://projectmgame.com/en/characters
So basically Waluigi would go inbetween Wario and Mario, bumping C. Falcon off the top layer.

Yoshi would also get bumped off to let D.K. and Diddy move to the left and K. Rool would be at the very end.

Slippy would replace the Ice Climbers slot.
Samus, ZSS, and the Psykids switch places, and Pit is replaced with Ridley.

All characters removed from their original places would be placed in the lowest layer - leaving all characters who are the only representatives of their series a whole layer of just them, its perfect (apart from Wario, but eh. He's a plumber. And yes, Yoshi is independent, his emblem is an Egg shell, not a mushroom).

And the fifth and final clone engine slot (my guess at the user of that slot would probably be either Isaac or Skapon) would be in the middle, at the very bottom, next to the random selection.

There's probably a reason the characters are all in the places they're at in the selection screen, maybe they're in some order. But in my arrangement (if all my most wanted characters got included), each layer would belong strictly to 1-3 character universes besides the bottom layers.

 

[Sour Supreme]

With all this emphasis on the clone engine being capable of only deriving so much from an original character.. My dreams of Slippy joining the Brawl are slowly coming closer to reality.

Also call me crazy for thinking about this.. But I've mapped out where the character icons for new clone slots would go. Specifically where all the characters I hope get created and added go.
Here's the current character list for reference. http://projectmgame.com/en/characters
So basically Waluigi would go inbetween Wario and Mario, bumping C. Falcon off the top layer.

Yoshi would also get bumped off to let D.K. and Diddy move to the left and K. Rool would be at the very end.

Slippy would replace the Ice Climbers slot.
Samus, ZSS, and the Psykids switch places, and Pit is replaced with Ridley.

All characters removed from their original places would be placed in the lowest layer - leaving all characters who are the only representatives of their series a whole layer of just them, its perfect (apart from Wario, but eh. He's a plumber. And yes, Yoshi is independent, his emblem is an Egg shell, not a mushroom).

And the fifth and final clone engine slot (my guess at the user of that slot would probably be either Isaac or Skapon) would be in the middle, at the very bottom, next to the random selection.

There's probably a reason the characters are all in the places they're at in the selection screen, maybe they're in some order. But in my arrangement (if all my most wanted characters got included), each layer would belong strictly to 1-3 character universes besides the bottom layers.

Hopefully the PMBR isn't basing the Clone Engine characters off of how they would fit into the Character Select.

 

[Shin F.]

I very much doubt the CSS has anything to do with it. In fact, it probably has literally zero impact on their decision, considering they can arrange it however they want.

 

[Sour Supreme]

Even if it did, the fact that characters need to be replaced to make your theory work is a straight up signal that you're incorrect.

 

[CBO0tz]

Oh I wasn't stating that I thought this would be how the PMBR would pick characters. I was merely stating how crazy I am for thinking of this and letting it out here.
But yeah, they definitely aren't going to to be thinking about the CSS until they're done with a finished character.
@ Sour Supreme
Characters aren't getting replaced, their spots that they're currently in are getting replaced with would-be clone characters. The characters themselves move elsewhere to a different spot.