UltimateWario
Smash Master
Yeah, but the Elixer Soup is more of a Toon Link staple.
It's not a really big deal, though, it's just something that bugged me.
-
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New Characters for Project M Discussion Thread (Voting Closed)
- Thread starter Anti Guy
- Start date
- Status
It's not a really big deal, though, it's just something that bugged me.
MikeHaggarTHAKJB
Smash Master
+nerfed pichu
popsofctown
Smash Champion
Sami is a really solid choice. She is practically the main character of Advance Wars: Dual Strike because she's so powerful. So she plays a pretty big role in every Advance wars game that's not Days of Ruin.
She also is unlikely to be in Smash 4. Incredibly unlikely since the most recent Advance Wars game omitted her. Which is why she feels like a great fit for a crossover mod between Melee and Brawl, that was her time period.
She also is unlikely to be in Smash 4. Incredibly unlikely since the most recent Advance Wars game omitted her. Which is why she feels like a great fit for a crossover mod between Melee and Brawl, that was her time period.
OrangeSodaGuy
Smash Journeyman
With all due respect, this is isn't necessarily a bad thing. While I agree that Pichu could use some tweaking in terms of differentiating from Pikachu (we've posted plenty of ideas on that already), Pichu's joke character status helps to set it apart. Everybody's so legit now-- the humiliation factor of beating your opponent with a low tier character is pretty much history.. The game could really use a 'silly' character that people can cheese, troll, and disrespect with, but at the same time feature a pretty unique playstyle by virtue of it's boosted electrical powers and self-damage mechanic.
I respect your opinion and I agree that Pichu has some things going for it (like a unique mechanic), but as I see it Pichu's 'joke' status means he doesn't deserve a place in PM: Pikachu is already comparable (to say the least) and superior and there are enough Pokémon representatives as is.
I would even go so far as to say that if another Pokémon character would be considered, there'd be more deserving Pokémon in my opinion, though those would require more work to make playable (not that I'm suggesting other Pokémon).
I guess I regard the 'cheesing, trolling and disrespecting' that you regard as positive as negative: the superior electric mouse is already in: there's no need for a by definition worse version in a game created solely for the competitive community (as making Pichu a good/better character would defeat its purpose, if I'm understaning your point of view correctly).
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QQQQQQQ7777777
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Apr 27, 2013
- Messages
- 2,300
Pac-man confirmed?
andalsoandy
Smash Lord
You, sir, are of a rare breed around here.
*salutes you*
Ok, NOW I'm done poking fun at this thread.
arcticfox8
Smash Champion
This won't end well. CUZ ITS A DOUBLE POST AAAAAAAAAAAA
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arcticfox8
Smash Champion
This won't end well.
^every time
Empyrean
Smash Champion
As in...double the destruction?
Shin F.
Smash Master
I'm just gonna put this really freaking awesome idea here once again for those who weren't around for it...
I thought of another Pichu idea-- who remembers the Plasma ability from Kirby's Super Star?
What if Pichu had a move like that? It could start off as a very weak attack with short range, but could charge the more you ran around (dashdancing FTW) It would work well for a hit-n-run esque character. When fully charged, Pichu would become electrified, which would damage enemies that touched it (like in Super Star) as well as Pichu itself. Using the move then would unleash an incredibly powerful electric ball of death
Can't you hold down R in the selection screen to play as Sopo? That's a troll character right there and it doesn't require the use of an extra slot.
OrangeSodaGuy
Smash Journeyman
Can't knock you for that perspective. Suppose we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I just think it would be nice if the series had a "Dan Hibiki" character. :shaq:
While that is cool, there are some pretty neat ideas for Pichu floating around that could surprise people and prove to be extremely dynamic and fun. Not to mention that Pichu is by far the safest and easiest choice for a clone character that the PMBR could go with, and it's the only character that's not represented yet. I don't have too much else to say, lestI go into broken-record mode for the umpteenth time (not knocking you personally, you're entitled to your opinion, lol).
Also, thank you for the repost, Shin. glad you liked the ideas.
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IceDX
Smash Ace
id like to see
+skullkid
+shadow
i also really like the black shadow/original ganondorf idea so +1 to that too
-1 for pichu i just dont think he is needed..
+skullkid
+shadow
i also really like the black shadow/original ganondorf idea so +1 to that too
-1 for pichu i just dont think he is needed..
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How is Pichu "safe"? Given his extreme divisiveness, he's anything but.
I agree that we should agree to disagree.
QQQQQQQ7777777
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Apr 27, 2013
- Messages
- 2,300
I agree that you should agree that you should agree to disagree and agree that NUPTUP SHALL BE YOUR LORD AND SAVIOR! CONSUME! CONSUME!
...
...
...
Nuptup for Clone Engine?
Ginge
Smash Ace
Safe in the sense that it is a Melee veteran and follows the clone engine rules pretty well. Safe in that it was fine to bring back 2 Melee veterans already, and a third as an alt costume. Safe in that Pichu is a better choice than bringing back Young Link (cause really, two Links is enough).
Divisive is a good word for Pichu, but it is probably the least likely to get a C&D for its inclusion.
I feel that that's not really a strong arguement for putting Pichu over Young Link: there are more than enough Pokémon as is (too).
If anything, Pichu and Young Link are equally viable using your logic.
UltimateWario
Smash Master
I think Pichu and Young Link are both equally entirely uninteresting. <3
Thane of Blue Flames
Fire is catching.
How about everyone imagine Young Link grew up into the P:M Link that stopped sucking in Smash
Cubelarooso
Smash Lord
+1
Sukapon
Waluigi
Ridley
King K. Rool
+1/2
Pig Ganon
Paper Mario
Who even is this guy?
Name: First, people should understand that giving the current Ganondorf a new stance would not give him new articles.
I conjecture that every Ganondorf player started out in one of two categories: those who like the playstyle (and thus would have not a problem with it being attached to a new character) and those who like Ganondorf (and thus should prefer that he be more like Ganondorf). Those who protest the change may currently like both Ganondorf and his playstyle, but they initially played him for only one reason, hence have empirically shown they can grow to appreciate the other. That conjecture makes it hard for me to seriously consider their stance; they’ve changed before, they can change again.
Of course, there’s also the possibility of keeping the current moveset on “Ganondorf,” and adding “Demon King Ganon” or “Toon Ganon” or “Real Ganon” or something. Or, better yet, giving the new moveset to “Ganondorf” and the old one to “Phantom Ganon” or “Shadow Ganon” or “Black Shadow Convincingly Cosplaying Ganon.”
Face: In terms of animations, I'd expect Ganondorf falls on the easier side of the poll. Not only does he have everything besides attacks ready to go, he could also use the Brawl versions for animations that are different for variety’s sake. Besides the canon ftilt, there are some other moves that are Ganony and have become iconic enough to keep, those being dair, jab, the old utilt (since it’d no longer be redundant), and maybe a stabby variation of fair. Since Ganondorf has the body of a regular human, he could also pull from much of the rest of the cast, and pretty much anything could be justified as a spellcasting, including the same animation as another spell but with different effects.
The Essentials
Of course, if the main incentive of Ganondorf is being more canon, there are a couple things I don’t think should be bothered going forward without.
Dead Man’s Volley: A staple from the Zelda series, common enough to be given an official name. Fundamentally, Ganondorf fires a ball of magic that can be reflected by opponents’ attacks, so then Ganondorf can rereflect it, and so forth. The projectile can commonly paralyze Link or the user, so that effect can be implemented to allow greater reward for a successful hit, encouraging players to use and reflect it. Not being affected by normal reflectors and absorbers would prevent cheating.
Other useful attributes (although some obviate others) if the article used allows for them:
Trident: Not a sword, reasons being: Ganon has used tridents more often, it’s more symbolically appropriate for a King of Evil, it’s more serviceable for magic since it can be held as a staff, and swords have just been played out both in Smash (especially when considering some of the other characters on the poll) and in general.
Of course, the reasons aren’t entirely notional; a trident would also provide variety in gameplay. The trident allows for both much closer- and farther-ranged attacks than the less versatile sword, as well as everything in between. While bladed tridents have been used in the games, a typical one is really only useful for piercing; consequently, whereas a sword swipe hits the arc of a circle centered on the character, a trident thrust hits a rectangle extending from the character. If he does have a token slash, it could have a tipper sweetspot with a sourspot worse than Melee Roy’s. Extending this train of thought, the stabs could be set up to have little or no power against opponents who come at the trident from its side as opposed to its tip. This could even be used in the charge of a Smash attack, with the trident firmly braced forward and a hitbox present for anyone who charges straight into it.
Powers of the Triforce
Float: Ganondorf is the perfect candidate for another floating character. His version could be a direct copy of Peach or Mewtwo’s, or have its own unique twists, such as:
Invisibility: Gannon’s main strategy in the NES original, but also used in ALttP, and a mainstay for any mages that prefer their blood inside their body.
Of course invisibility could be used during dodges, but what makes it different from a teleport if you don’t do anything during? Other places it could be used are in the options from the ledge, during getup, and when teching. The first two stand out as including attacking, as well as jumping for the former. Regarding teching, it may be interesting if Ganon were visible for only a few frames at the beginning, but with a pose distinct and intuitive for each direction, and a relatively long-lasting, short-distance roll/stand; consequently, tech-chasing changes from a game of prediction and reflexes to a game of prediction and acuity. For any of these, invisibility could also come at the cost of short invincibility.
Another intriguing application would be if Ganondorf’s initial dash was very short, but invisible. Ergo, while his dash dance wouldn’t be that threatening, it would allow him to slowly, secretly reposition himself. As an aesthetic bonus, his run could have him blinking in and out of visibility, so together his dash calls to mind his teleport in ALttP (except backwards), and it could even utilize the sound effect.
Dark Arts: A traditional act of black magic is sacrificing personal well-being in exchange for power; while Ganondorf has never expressly done this, he is an evil wizard, so it’s suitable. It could come in the form of attacks with recoil damage, or it could be a mechanic where a Ganondorf player can press B during a Normal’s startup to power it up at the cost of self-damage. The power-up could come in the form of extra damage, knockback, range, more active frames, or making all hitboxes the sweetspot. There could also be a bit of a gambit mixed in, where ‘Dorf only takes the damage if he whiffs. Of course, damage alone means nothing in Smash, so he could also take extra damage or knockback if hit during the attack.
Pickups: As a little reference to the Zelda trope, Ganondorf’s projectiles could leave behind Food when clanked. Could be reserved for when Items are turned on, if it’s otherwise too silly.
Of Might and Magic
If entirely different moves are triggered by pressing in a different (or no) direction after performing the regular input for a Special (think aiming an Up-B), the number of Specials Ganondorf has could be effectively increased, while also giving the player the sense of inputting magical somatic components. Combine this with changing the move by holding or tapping B, smashing or tilting the stick, or adding a press of A, jump, shield, or even another B, and there are more possible simple-inputs than a character file probably has room for. While that’s clearly excessive, there really is no scarcity of possibilities for magical moves, and I do think that giving Ganondorf a staggering number of options that each yield a significant bonus or control of a considerable portion of the stage – but which come with substantial commitment – could lend itself to even more player-to-player variation in strategy than the Smash system already allows, and supplying opponents with the sense that they’re truly solving the puzzle of a Zelda boss.
False Volley: A common mixup in games of Dead Man’s Volley. The startup-animation looks the same as for the regular version, but, once thrown, the projectile takes the shape of some weird spherical harmonic. Absorbable and reflectable, but only by absorbers and reflectors. Upon striking any surface, an enemy, or an attack that doesn’t outprioritize it, it bursts into ~6 smaller projectiles in equally distributed directions. Doesn’t paralyze, so there’s incentive to use the reflectable version; or it could just happen randomly.
As a side note, despite not being a game of DMV, the Oracles’ Ganon fight had a couple of shmup-esque projectiles that would fit with the with the rest of these moves.
Invisibility Continued: Could be a special move instead of a passive ability, either as a temporary power-up or lasting as long as B is held. Of course, having more freedom makes him harder to find, and so better able to stall, hence restricting movement to walking, ground jumps, and aerial drifting would be appropriate.
Duplication: Used in most games, if not by Ganondorf then by some other boss. The more exciting uses would probably be too difficult to play, let alone make (assuming any version could be made). The simplest way to do it would simply create a second Ganondorf to the left or right of the real one, moving the tag to the center. The fake may or may not have hitboxes, and may or may not disappear upon being hit. Could also be combined with invisibility by making only the fake visible, and only subtle indication of Ganondorf using the move in the first place.
Firebats: Ganon’s main strategy in ALttP and LA. In those games they come in three patterns: single one flying in straight line with a trail of fire, single one flying in expanding spiral with a trail of fire, and a circle of embers around Ganon that each turn into a bat and fly at Link. While a move could simply spawn bats that follow these or other patterns, that last one ignites inspiration to more complexity:
Upon pressing B, Ganondorf begins spinning his trident, and an ember appears at its tip. As B is held down, embers slowly begin appearing, spinning around Ganondorf in a growing circle in the plane of play. These have weak hitboxes that grow in size and strength (still weak, though) as more appear. They don’t disappear when they hit someone, but they can be broken by attacks, and doing so causes the remaining ones to retract, shrink, and weaken as appropriate. When B is released, the embers stop spinning, and Ganon sequentially turns them into bats and shoots them in directions chosen by the player. Ganondorf is left vulnerable to attack during both the spinning and firing, and if he’s hit the embers all disappear. However, if Ganon spins past the final ember appearing, he’ll reach a point where his animation ends and he’s free to move, but the embers will continue spinning and one-by-one turn into bats and automatically fly towards the opponent, toward Ganon, or in the player’s chosen directions (whatever the article allows).
Bat Form: Used in a cutscene in ALttP, but shapechanging in general is quite common. Would make for a fair recovery move. Could be combined with duplication for an interesting move:
Four bats in a square formation fly out of an obscuring puff of smoke and control like a slower, longer Extreme Speed. Ganon is the bat corresponding to the direction input during the puff, and the confusion can be compounded by pressing L or R to rotate the bats, and A to fly each bat through the center to the opposite corner. Thus the opponent can’t be sure if he’s going for the stage of the ledge, nor at which point he’ll end. Attacks could just pass through the fakes, or they could destroy them, or they could trigger a counter-attack, or the effect could vary with how many are hit.
Tridekinesis: Used in ALttP, LA, and FSA; works somewhat like PK Thunder. Ganondorf throws his trident, then magically controls it as it spins through the air. Of course, the tip of the prongs would be the ever-moving sweetspot, and the rest could have little-or-no knockback if the move is otherwise too powerful as an edgeguard. Unlike PK Thunder, the move does not have limited duration, but must be returned to Ganondorf’s body to be ended. Consequently, while Ganondorf can wall out opponents without built-in holes, if the opponent can bore through then they get a free smash attack, complete with visible indicator of the prime releasing moment. If interrupted (by his body being hit or the trident being clanked or something) then the trident simply disappears and reappears in G’s hand, with some magical effects. In FSA the attack left a flaming trail like the firebats, so that could be used to make it more obnoxious.
Traditionally, the attack is paired with a teleport, but it’s hard to think of a way to implement that that doesn’t invoke questions of balance. A simple (to say) implementation would be in the form of his grabs, instead of a special. Ganondorf throws his trident to spear the opponent, then teleports to them. Thus, uniquely, Ganondorf’s grab would bring him to the opponent, rather than vice versa. If the trident misses, Ganondorf could teleport to it anyway, or it could loop back to him, or it could depend on whether it’s a standing or dashing grab. Then again, it might look a bit violent if a character was actually gigged on the trident, so it could just magically seal them instead.
Break the Platforms: From ALttP and OoT. Ganondorf pounds the ground, damaging nearby characters and leaving a black void on the ground if it’s a drop-through platform. While I doubt, even with the PMBR’s magic, that a move can remove a platform’s collisions, it could be simulated with a weak plunging hitbox.
Lightning: Used in ALttP and FSA. Ganondorf shoots lightning that arcs toward nearby surfaces and hurtboxes. Could just be a smash attack, instead.
Maiden Manipulation (Crystallization, Levitation, Teleportation, and Sedation): A tactic taken by Ganon at every opportunity. Ganondorf could be capable of manipulating opponents in unique ways. Of course, “unique enemy manipulation” probably translates into “hard or impossible to implement.”
Crystallization could work as a combination paralyzation and burying, locking a character’s location, preventing any actions, and protecting them from grabs until either they mash out or are hit with a particularly strong attack. Alternatively, it could just be part of the CatchWait animation, and therfor not require anything special.
Levitation could be a command grab, or it could be a normal throw while working in essentially the same way: The caught player is helpless while Ganondorf moves them around. Rather than simply dealing damage, it could allow 'Dorf to move the victim into the path any errant projectiles or teammates’ (theirs or 'Dorf’s) attacks, or by ramming them into surfaces or teammates (preferably theirs). Rather than simply dealing knockback, it could allow exact positioning into the ideal spot for whatever is desired.
As a Special move, teleportation could simply relocate characters near Ganondorf to somewhere farther away, his opposite side being the obvious direction. The effect on opponents would be much like Mario’s Cape, leaving them disoriented and stuck in an action that is no longer relevant and possibly now detrimental. As a throw, the victim could be teleported in a chosen direction then knocked back toward ‘Dorf, letting him be his own pitcher and allowing for an unusual chaingrab; or it could be combined with sedation to teleport them to a distant surface where they’re put to sleep, since just dropping them asleep in front of Ganondorf sounds like too much.
Warp: Used in ALttP, OoA/OoS, FSA, and TP, plus by his clones in LA, OoT, and WW. Could use a system inspired by Farore’s Wind and Ooccoo: First time sets a waypoint that remains until use or death; second time teleports ‘Dorf to the point. Thus Ganondorf has a single guaranteed “recovery” from anywhere, offset by the opponent knowing exactly where he’ll be. To also allow for onstage use, the lag could scale with distance.
Spell of Somaria: Not a spell used by Ganondorf, but a spell known to exist in the Zelda universe. In ALttP and OoA, Link gets the Cane of Somaria, which creates a block that can depress buttons, hurt enemies, and be pushed, picked up, and thrown. Using the Cane a second time causes the block to burst into four flaming missiles in the cardinal directions. Hence, the most accurate translation of the move would require the ability to spawn a currently unused item capable of being modified to act as required. However, a more relaxed interpretation could simply be a cube of damaging magical energy, maybe stationary or maybe moving, and maybe affected by gravity.
Spell of Pacci: Like Mario’s Cape, reverses enemies' and their projectiles' movement. Unlike the Cape, does so along the vertical axis, while leaving horizontal movement unchanged (except when weird things happen).
Spell of Byrna: Ganondorf’s gains persistent hitboxes and Heavy (or even Super) Armor. Hitboxes could be inside his body, or circling around him. There could be multiple varieties of the move that give the hitboxes different properties, taking inspiration from the Yoyo Glitch. Could last a set amount of time, or until Ganondorf is hit with a certain number of attacks or takes a certain amount of damage, or until the hitboxes deal a certain amount of damage, or some combination.
Jinx: A common status condition in Zelda that blocks Link from using his sword or other items. Kinda difficult to come up with an implementation that isn’t annoying and unbalanced, though. Other general debuffs, or just changing an opponent’s physics, could be considered.
Dark Arts Continued: Could be a special(s) instead of a mechanic. This would allow for more general buffs, and could even be applied to invisibility, duplication, warp, or the spell of Somaria.
Three classes of ways I can imagine this done:
As always, thank you for reading my list of dumb gimmicks.
Sukapon
Waluigi
Ridley
King K. Rool
+1/2
Pig Ganon
Paper Mario
Who even is this guy?
Name: First, people should understand that giving the current Ganondorf a new stance would not give him new articles.
I conjecture that every Ganondorf player started out in one of two categories: those who like the playstyle (and thus would have not a problem with it being attached to a new character) and those who like Ganondorf (and thus should prefer that he be more like Ganondorf). Those who protest the change may currently like both Ganondorf and his playstyle, but they initially played him for only one reason, hence have empirically shown they can grow to appreciate the other. That conjecture makes it hard for me to seriously consider their stance; they’ve changed before, they can change again.
Of course, there’s also the possibility of keeping the current moveset on “Ganondorf,” and adding “Demon King Ganon” or “Toon Ganon” or “Real Ganon” or something. Or, better yet, giving the new moveset to “Ganondorf” and the old one to “Phantom Ganon” or “Shadow Ganon” or “Black Shadow Convincingly Cosplaying Ganon.”
Face: In terms of animations, I'd expect Ganondorf falls on the easier side of the poll. Not only does he have everything besides attacks ready to go, he could also use the Brawl versions for animations that are different for variety’s sake. Besides the canon ftilt, there are some other moves that are Ganony and have become iconic enough to keep, those being dair, jab, the old utilt (since it’d no longer be redundant), and maybe a stabby variation of fair. Since Ganondorf has the body of a regular human, he could also pull from much of the rest of the cast, and pretty much anything could be justified as a spellcasting, including the same animation as another spell but with different effects.
The Essentials
Of course, if the main incentive of Ganondorf is being more canon, there are a couple things I don’t think should be bothered going forward without.
Dead Man’s Volley: A staple from the Zelda series, common enough to be given an official name. Fundamentally, Ganondorf fires a ball of magic that can be reflected by opponents’ attacks, so then Ganondorf can rereflect it, and so forth. The projectile can commonly paralyze Link or the user, so that effect can be implemented to allow greater reward for a successful hit, encouraging players to use and reflect it. Not being affected by normal reflectors and absorbers would prevent cheating.
Other useful attributes (although some obviate others) if the article used allows for them:
- Being aimed diagonally down when in the air.
- Angle of reflection being affected by the reflecting attack.
- Automatically being aimed toward an opponent when shot and reflected.
- Increased speed/damage/paralyze time with each reflect (although a balance would need to be found between the reward of dealing greater damage and the risk of taking greater damage).
- Not being reflected by attacks it out-prioritizes (so, assuming increasing damage, players would need to up the ante with each reflect).
Trident: Not a sword, reasons being: Ganon has used tridents more often, it’s more symbolically appropriate for a King of Evil, it’s more serviceable for magic since it can be held as a staff, and swords have just been played out both in Smash (especially when considering some of the other characters on the poll) and in general.
Of course, the reasons aren’t entirely notional; a trident would also provide variety in gameplay. The trident allows for both much closer- and farther-ranged attacks than the less versatile sword, as well as everything in between. While bladed tridents have been used in the games, a typical one is really only useful for piercing; consequently, whereas a sword swipe hits the arc of a circle centered on the character, a trident thrust hits a rectangle extending from the character. If he does have a token slash, it could have a tipper sweetspot with a sourspot worse than Melee Roy’s. Extending this train of thought, the stabs could be set up to have little or no power against opponents who come at the trident from its side as opposed to its tip. This could even be used in the charge of a Smash attack, with the trident firmly braced forward and a hitbox present for anyone who charges straight into it.
Powers of the Triforce
Float: Ganondorf is the perfect candidate for another floating character. His version could be a direct copy of Peach or Mewtwo’s, or have its own unique twists, such as:
- The animation bobbing around a central point, providing a piece of perplexity for players not privy to the pattern, but perfectly predictable for those who are.
- The ability to turn around via some input, such as holding backwards for several frames or double-tapping it.
- The inability to end the float, even by landing, before it naturally expires.
- Being cancelled by Normal moves but not by Specials, therefore allowing a truly sorcerous experience but necessitating either a claw or custom controls.
Invisibility: Gannon’s main strategy in the NES original, but also used in ALttP, and a mainstay for any mages that prefer their blood inside their body.
Of course invisibility could be used during dodges, but what makes it different from a teleport if you don’t do anything during? Other places it could be used are in the options from the ledge, during getup, and when teching. The first two stand out as including attacking, as well as jumping for the former. Regarding teching, it may be interesting if Ganon were visible for only a few frames at the beginning, but with a pose distinct and intuitive for each direction, and a relatively long-lasting, short-distance roll/stand; consequently, tech-chasing changes from a game of prediction and reflexes to a game of prediction and acuity. For any of these, invisibility could also come at the cost of short invincibility.
Another intriguing application would be if Ganondorf’s initial dash was very short, but invisible. Ergo, while his dash dance wouldn’t be that threatening, it would allow him to slowly, secretly reposition himself. As an aesthetic bonus, his run could have him blinking in and out of visibility, so together his dash calls to mind his teleport in ALttP (except backwards), and it could even utilize the sound effect.
Dark Arts: A traditional act of black magic is sacrificing personal well-being in exchange for power; while Ganondorf has never expressly done this, he is an evil wizard, so it’s suitable. It could come in the form of attacks with recoil damage, or it could be a mechanic where a Ganondorf player can press B during a Normal’s startup to power it up at the cost of self-damage. The power-up could come in the form of extra damage, knockback, range, more active frames, or making all hitboxes the sweetspot. There could also be a bit of a gambit mixed in, where ‘Dorf only takes the damage if he whiffs. Of course, damage alone means nothing in Smash, so he could also take extra damage or knockback if hit during the attack.
Pickups: As a little reference to the Zelda trope, Ganondorf’s projectiles could leave behind Food when clanked. Could be reserved for when Items are turned on, if it’s otherwise too silly.
Of Might and Magic
If entirely different moves are triggered by pressing in a different (or no) direction after performing the regular input for a Special (think aiming an Up-B), the number of Specials Ganondorf has could be effectively increased, while also giving the player the sense of inputting magical somatic components. Combine this with changing the move by holding or tapping B, smashing or tilting the stick, or adding a press of A, jump, shield, or even another B, and there are more possible simple-inputs than a character file probably has room for. While that’s clearly excessive, there really is no scarcity of possibilities for magical moves, and I do think that giving Ganondorf a staggering number of options that each yield a significant bonus or control of a considerable portion of the stage – but which come with substantial commitment – could lend itself to even more player-to-player variation in strategy than the Smash system already allows, and supplying opponents with the sense that they’re truly solving the puzzle of a Zelda boss.
False Volley: A common mixup in games of Dead Man’s Volley. The startup-animation looks the same as for the regular version, but, once thrown, the projectile takes the shape of some weird spherical harmonic. Absorbable and reflectable, but only by absorbers and reflectors. Upon striking any surface, an enemy, or an attack that doesn’t outprioritize it, it bursts into ~6 smaller projectiles in equally distributed directions. Doesn’t paralyze, so there’s incentive to use the reflectable version; or it could just happen randomly.
As a side note, despite not being a game of DMV, the Oracles’ Ganon fight had a couple of shmup-esque projectiles that would fit with the with the rest of these moves.
Invisibility Continued: Could be a special move instead of a passive ability, either as a temporary power-up or lasting as long as B is held. Of course, having more freedom makes him harder to find, and so better able to stall, hence restricting movement to walking, ground jumps, and aerial drifting would be appropriate.
Duplication: Used in most games, if not by Ganondorf then by some other boss. The more exciting uses would probably be too difficult to play, let alone make (assuming any version could be made). The simplest way to do it would simply create a second Ganondorf to the left or right of the real one, moving the tag to the center. The fake may or may not have hitboxes, and may or may not disappear upon being hit. Could also be combined with invisibility by making only the fake visible, and only subtle indication of Ganondorf using the move in the first place.
Firebats: Ganon’s main strategy in ALttP and LA. In those games they come in three patterns: single one flying in straight line with a trail of fire, single one flying in expanding spiral with a trail of fire, and a circle of embers around Ganon that each turn into a bat and fly at Link. While a move could simply spawn bats that follow these or other patterns, that last one ignites inspiration to more complexity:
Upon pressing B, Ganondorf begins spinning his trident, and an ember appears at its tip. As B is held down, embers slowly begin appearing, spinning around Ganondorf in a growing circle in the plane of play. These have weak hitboxes that grow in size and strength (still weak, though) as more appear. They don’t disappear when they hit someone, but they can be broken by attacks, and doing so causes the remaining ones to retract, shrink, and weaken as appropriate. When B is released, the embers stop spinning, and Ganon sequentially turns them into bats and shoots them in directions chosen by the player. Ganondorf is left vulnerable to attack during both the spinning and firing, and if he’s hit the embers all disappear. However, if Ganon spins past the final ember appearing, he’ll reach a point where his animation ends and he’s free to move, but the embers will continue spinning and one-by-one turn into bats and automatically fly towards the opponent, toward Ganon, or in the player’s chosen directions (whatever the article allows).
Bat Form: Used in a cutscene in ALttP, but shapechanging in general is quite common. Would make for a fair recovery move. Could be combined with duplication for an interesting move:
Four bats in a square formation fly out of an obscuring puff of smoke and control like a slower, longer Extreme Speed. Ganon is the bat corresponding to the direction input during the puff, and the confusion can be compounded by pressing L or R to rotate the bats, and A to fly each bat through the center to the opposite corner. Thus the opponent can’t be sure if he’s going for the stage of the ledge, nor at which point he’ll end. Attacks could just pass through the fakes, or they could destroy them, or they could trigger a counter-attack, or the effect could vary with how many are hit.
Tridekinesis: Used in ALttP, LA, and FSA; works somewhat like PK Thunder. Ganondorf throws his trident, then magically controls it as it spins through the air. Of course, the tip of the prongs would be the ever-moving sweetspot, and the rest could have little-or-no knockback if the move is otherwise too powerful as an edgeguard. Unlike PK Thunder, the move does not have limited duration, but must be returned to Ganondorf’s body to be ended. Consequently, while Ganondorf can wall out opponents without built-in holes, if the opponent can bore through then they get a free smash attack, complete with visible indicator of the prime releasing moment. If interrupted (by his body being hit or the trident being clanked or something) then the trident simply disappears and reappears in G’s hand, with some magical effects. In FSA the attack left a flaming trail like the firebats, so that could be used to make it more obnoxious.
Traditionally, the attack is paired with a teleport, but it’s hard to think of a way to implement that that doesn’t invoke questions of balance. A simple (to say) implementation would be in the form of his grabs, instead of a special. Ganondorf throws his trident to spear the opponent, then teleports to them. Thus, uniquely, Ganondorf’s grab would bring him to the opponent, rather than vice versa. If the trident misses, Ganondorf could teleport to it anyway, or it could loop back to him, or it could depend on whether it’s a standing or dashing grab. Then again, it might look a bit violent if a character was actually gigged on the trident, so it could just magically seal them instead.
Break the Platforms: From ALttP and OoT. Ganondorf pounds the ground, damaging nearby characters and leaving a black void on the ground if it’s a drop-through platform. While I doubt, even with the PMBR’s magic, that a move can remove a platform’s collisions, it could be simulated with a weak plunging hitbox.
Lightning: Used in ALttP and FSA. Ganondorf shoots lightning that arcs toward nearby surfaces and hurtboxes. Could just be a smash attack, instead.
Maiden Manipulation (Crystallization, Levitation, Teleportation, and Sedation): A tactic taken by Ganon at every opportunity. Ganondorf could be capable of manipulating opponents in unique ways. Of course, “unique enemy manipulation” probably translates into “hard or impossible to implement.”
Crystallization could work as a combination paralyzation and burying, locking a character’s location, preventing any actions, and protecting them from grabs until either they mash out or are hit with a particularly strong attack. Alternatively, it could just be part of the CatchWait animation, and therfor not require anything special.
Levitation could be a command grab, or it could be a normal throw while working in essentially the same way: The caught player is helpless while Ganondorf moves them around. Rather than simply dealing damage, it could allow 'Dorf to move the victim into the path any errant projectiles or teammates’ (theirs or 'Dorf’s) attacks, or by ramming them into surfaces or teammates (preferably theirs). Rather than simply dealing knockback, it could allow exact positioning into the ideal spot for whatever is desired.
As a Special move, teleportation could simply relocate characters near Ganondorf to somewhere farther away, his opposite side being the obvious direction. The effect on opponents would be much like Mario’s Cape, leaving them disoriented and stuck in an action that is no longer relevant and possibly now detrimental. As a throw, the victim could be teleported in a chosen direction then knocked back toward ‘Dorf, letting him be his own pitcher and allowing for an unusual chaingrab; or it could be combined with sedation to teleport them to a distant surface where they’re put to sleep, since just dropping them asleep in front of Ganondorf sounds like too much.
Warp: Used in ALttP, OoA/OoS, FSA, and TP, plus by his clones in LA, OoT, and WW. Could use a system inspired by Farore’s Wind and Ooccoo: First time sets a waypoint that remains until use or death; second time teleports ‘Dorf to the point. Thus Ganondorf has a single guaranteed “recovery” from anywhere, offset by the opponent knowing exactly where he’ll be. To also allow for onstage use, the lag could scale with distance.
Spell of Somaria: Not a spell used by Ganondorf, but a spell known to exist in the Zelda universe. In ALttP and OoA, Link gets the Cane of Somaria, which creates a block that can depress buttons, hurt enemies, and be pushed, picked up, and thrown. Using the Cane a second time causes the block to burst into four flaming missiles in the cardinal directions. Hence, the most accurate translation of the move would require the ability to spawn a currently unused item capable of being modified to act as required. However, a more relaxed interpretation could simply be a cube of damaging magical energy, maybe stationary or maybe moving, and maybe affected by gravity.
Spell of Pacci: Like Mario’s Cape, reverses enemies' and their projectiles' movement. Unlike the Cape, does so along the vertical axis, while leaving horizontal movement unchanged (except when weird things happen).
Spell of Byrna: Ganondorf’s gains persistent hitboxes and Heavy (or even Super) Armor. Hitboxes could be inside his body, or circling around him. There could be multiple varieties of the move that give the hitboxes different properties, taking inspiration from the Yoyo Glitch. Could last a set amount of time, or until Ganondorf is hit with a certain number of attacks or takes a certain amount of damage, or until the hitboxes deal a certain amount of damage, or some combination.
Jinx: A common status condition in Zelda that blocks Link from using his sword or other items. Kinda difficult to come up with an implementation that isn’t annoying and unbalanced, though. Other general debuffs, or just changing an opponent’s physics, could be considered.
Dark Arts Continued: Could be a special(s) instead of a mechanic. This would allow for more general buffs, and could even be applied to invisibility, duplication, warp, or the spell of Somaria.
Three classes of ways I can imagine this done:
- The spell has a specific casting time and damage cost in exchange for a given effect for a given time.
- The casting continually damages Ganondorf as long as B is held (down to some minimum) with scaling strength and duration.
- The casting takes the form of an attack that must land to be successful.
As always, thank you for reading my list of dumb gimmicks.
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OrangeSodaGuy
Smash Journeyman
The issue with Young Link is that his playstyle is essentially covered by Toon Link. The multi-hit spin attack and bombs, the flaming arrows, the flaming dair, and even the milk taunt were all transferred over to Toon Link. There's a good case to make for Young Link returning with his masks from Majoras, but those transformations would eat up nearly all of the remaining slots. Bringing Pichu back still leaves plenty of room for fan favorites like Issac, Lyndis, Ridley, and Dixie.
None of Pichu's unique attributes are really shared by anyone in P:M, and Pichu could very well be retooled to be a much more fun and dynamic character than he was in Melee.
It's easy to sit here and say that people don't want pichu-- however, people aren't always right. People didn't want Link and the rest of the characters to look as cartoony as they did when Wind Waker was first announced. Yet and still, the game went on to be a massive hit.
Whether Pichu makes it or not, I'm certain that the PMBR knows what they're doing and will make the right choice.
EDIT: I'm not saying there's no legitimate reason to not want Pichu-- I'm just saying that fan expectations/reactions aren't always the best way to gauge how well a character would work in P:M. NOBODY was anticipating Mr. Game and Watch before SSBM came out.
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The same can be said for all other less popular characters though.
andalsoandy
Smash Lord
That would be ****ing amazing.
Yeah I posted a big ol' Classic Ganon moveset just a few pages back.
Also, keep in mind that there are fairly strict technical limitations, even though the PMBR is magic.
Empyrean
Smash Champion
Those are some nice ideas you've got there. Even though I didn't get the time to read it all, Dead Man's Volley would definitely be interesting to see implemented in the game. I think it should replace Neutral B. I also agree that a trident would be far more appealing and true-to-the-character than a sword, not to mention people who care about weapon-variety would also be satisfied.
Daftatt
"float like a puffball, sting like a knee"
I think a float would be SUPER COOL, bumping 2 float characters to 3 wouldn't be overusing the mechanic in my opinion. A trident!? YES. If the PMBR is going to change gannondorf (probably never EVER going to happen BTW) I think a trident with jab-attacks would be a lot better than adding another sword character with slash attacks.
To sum up my opinion, the PMBR should replace gannondorf's models with black shadow's, then add the current gannon's models with a new moveset to a clone slot, the new moveset should let him float and attack with a trident, and give him the projectile dead man's volley.
To sum up my opinion, the PMBR should replace gannondorf's models with black shadow's, then add the current gannon's models with a new moveset to a clone slot, the new moveset should let him float and attack with a trident, and give him the projectile dead man's volley.
Alfonzo Bagpipez
Smash Lord
A projectile that can't be blocked by shields or reflectors and can only be avoided with a hitbox, which also homes in on opponents.
I think that would break the action, and it really just seems like a contest of "Who misses an L-Cancel first" or "Who has the least lag on their aerials" which is a contest that Ganon will ALWAYS lose.
Unless of course the projectile goes really slow, which makes for even more of a boring mechanic.
On top of that, the fact that Ganon can get punished by his own projectile and remain in hitstun for a while gives the move no real use.
It's just not a good idea for Project M, but it might be for Brawl -
I think that would break the action, and it really just seems like a contest of "Who misses an L-Cancel first" or "Who has the least lag on their aerials" which is a contest that Ganon will ALWAYS lose.
Unless of course the projectile goes really slow, which makes for even more of a boring mechanic.
On top of that, the fact that Ganon can get punished by his own projectile and remain in hitstun for a while gives the move no real use.
It's just not a good idea for Project M, but it might be for Brawl -
QQQQQQQ7777777
Smash Champion
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if dead man's volley is the move I think it is, Toon Link better be able to power shield it with his Milk taunt.
Daftatt
"float like a puffball, sting like a knee"
Word on the street from the PMBR, Shadow will NEVER be added, no matter what.
No word on this from the PMBR, but another zelda character will also probably never happen.
Mansta
(￣^￣)ゞ
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Probably because he was done to death on the Brawl Vault for years, seriously go there and search for "Shadow" on the Sonic section.
Daftatt
"float like a puffball, sting like a knee"
lol, actually search for shadow over ANY character, he is on all of them. Shadic's (a P:M dev lead) name is actually a combination of Shadow and sonic, and he still doesn't want shadow in the game.
QQQQQQQ7777777
Smash Champion
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Shadic? Who's that? I only know the one and only ALAKADOOF!
Daftatt
"float like a puffball, sting like a knee"
Funny thing is, I know him in real life, I kid you not, he actually looks like that.
Shin F.
Smash Master
There's a Brawl Vault "award" given to every hacker with a Shadow hack. It's hilarious.
http://forums.kc-mm.com/index.php?action=profile;sa=awardsMembers;id=64
Shadow the Pinhog said:
Daftatt
"float like a puffball, sting like a knee"
dead link.
UltimateWario
Smash Master
With a character as hackneyed and trite as Shadow (hell, he's practically the definition of those words), you have to expect a ridiculous amount of people will like him. Doesn't help that he's also a recolor of SAWNIK DA HEDGEHAWG, practically a fan-character of Sega's own design, with a cookie-cutter selection of super powers that even early Superman and his sandwich eye-lasers wouldn't cough at.
He's practically begging junior hackers to make him.
He's practically begging junior hackers to make him.
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Shin F.
Smash Master
Strange, it works for me. Oh, well - it's in the list, as well. Last one.
http://forums.kc-mm.com/index.php?topic=30094.0
_Ganondorf_
The Demon King
I have faith in the PMBR to at least make Ganon's animations unique and possibly have them more fittin to the character (his Upsmash is so not in character it hurts lol) and hopefully we can get buffs to him where it's needed I doubt they would keep him the way he is, cause currently he has some major design flaws. I made a collection of "drawings" on his "META" thread of a revamp of his animations jut so their more unique but even with those suggested animations the moves functionality won't need (although some moves should) to change.
I suggests anyone who wants to discuss Ganon, should do it on his "META" thread.
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