Charizard Matchup Discussion - Marth

[Swamp Sensei]

The prince of Akaneia is here to duel! How do we fare?

Link to archive: http://smashboards.com/threads/lets...wave-nine-is-here-3-characters-a-wave.407883/

 

[Zard lover Doom Desire]

I'd say this is pretty even. Marth obviously has better frame data and in some cases more power than us, but I've never really fought a Marth that's blown me back. His moves can be pretty punishable so as long as we can bait him into whiffing a smash attack, he'll be getting hit very hard. Conversely, his counter is devastating to us (except when we use Flare Blitz because of the troll first hit being very weak) and we're also more punishable. You're going to want to play a tad defensive on this one, retreating autocancelled forward aerials and such.

 

[Silvalfo]

His aerials aren't nearly as safe as they were in Melee or Brawl, so just shield them and punish accordingly (jab or grab in most cases). His landing lags are also slightly worse than they look.
Though shielding aerials is often a good idea, remember he can neutralB your shield away. Regarding aerial marth again, Zard's utilt and usmash all outrange anything Marth may have in the air (and can't even get countered with decent spacing).

Now, as far as grounded fights go, his sideB can punish too many charizard things and does very solid damage, and his tilts have all very decent disjointed range, limiting Charizard's main keep-away uses of dtilt and ftilt. Flamethrower is a decent walling option in the ground, and he isn't quick enough to jump and punish, so use short bursts of neutralB while he can't reach you.

Remember that Marth is light and a tad floaty, so uthrow nets early kills, and dthrow stops comboing reliably early as well.

I'm still tempted to try reverse aerial rock smash facing the ledge as an edgeguarding tool against Marth.

 

[Zard lover Doom Desire]

Well technically his falling speed is about average, but yes, up throw is deadly while Marth's isn't

 

[MintyBreeze]

From what I read on the Marth forums, shield breaker's damage was somehow nerfed to the point that it just barely doesn't kill shields anymore. Granted, it's not a good idea for Charizard to let himself get hit by it, but that's good at least.

 

[Adamas]

From what I read on the Marth forums, shield breaker's damage was somehow nerfed to the point that it just barely doesn't kill shields anymore. Granted, it's not a good idea for Charizard to let himself get hit by it, but that's good at least.

Martha's neutral-b was nerfed with the new shield mechanics that were added in Patch 1.1.0, which, while good for us Charizard mains in this discussion, is a pretty dumb nerf.

 

[Virum]

Shields have approximately 42% HP. Shield Breaker uncharged deals 8/9% with an additional shield damage modifier of +25%, dealing a total of 33% on shield minimum. Previously this modifier used to be +30% extra shield damage, meaning a minimum of 38% on shield. Previously a very slightly charged Shield Breaker was enough to break a fresh shield, now it has to be mostly charged.

 

[Silvalfo]

The extra shield stun lets shields remain more time losing health, so it was a really light nerf tbh.

 

[charizardbro]

The extra shield stun lets shields remain more time losing health, so it was a really light nerf tbh.

Depends when you shield it. This is only true if you have had your shield up for a bit. If you narrowly miss a powershield, you can actually drop shield faster than you could prepatch because shieldlock overlaps with shieldstun.

And anyone who has had shield up for a bit and blocks a shield breaker is probably getting shieldbroken anyway so the extra time spent in shield doesn't even matter.

So the nerf is both substantial and not mitigated by increased shieldstun.

 

[MintyBreeze]

Does Marth have any way of pressuring our shield now that shield breaker has been relatively nerfed? I know his poor aerials have been nerfed drastically to the point they aren't quite as safe as in the other games.
His grabs aren't particularly threatening outside of maybe throwing us off-stage, but Marth IS pretty good off-stage.

Let's all just contribute little snippets of what we know, I don't think we have much MU knowledge on Marth.

 

[Zard lover Doom Desire]

The changes to shieldstun made the nerf to Shield Breaker mostly negligible, right?

 

[Steeler]

Use a lot of jabs here, it's got ridiculous sword-like range while being (i think) faster than any attack Marth has.

Recovering can be difficult actually, he can counter Fly and Flare Blitz without much difficulty... if customs were legal I may recommend Fly High...

 

[charizardbro]

The changes to shieldstun made the nerf to Shield Breaker mostly negligible, right?

Nope.

Use a lot of jabs here, it's got ridiculous sword-like range while being (i think) faster than any attack Marth has.

Recovering can be difficult actually, he can counter Fly and Flare Blitz without much difficulty... if customs were legal I may recommend Fly High...

I mean, I typically recover as late as I possibly can or as early as I can with Fly to mix up Marth players and the offstage counter really isn't that free. Try to mix up as much as possible. Or recover high if you have to.

Also Marth typically won't let us get into jab range if he spaces his fairs properly. Gotta bear that in mind when you try to use them after dropping shield since whiffing jab 1-3 is a free fsmash.