Chair's bolus of useless uninspiring information (updated whenever you're not around)

[Lord Chair]

Because this board needs more threads and because I want to increase my post count.

I skimmed my posts from the past months and feel like compiling it into one massive pile of **** for myself and perhaps other to use as reference. Most of it is supposed to make sense and perfectly true but I'm sure I've revised my opinion about a thing or two. I obviously also want to post this to look very interesting and knowledgeable about this game. I'll expand this thread probably only whenever I post something in another thread I think to be worthwhile and you guys will have no idea when I update this, further making this a pile of ****.

Have fun.

[COLLAPSE="On comparing Marth with MK (stop doing it):"]

garblegarble wario and snake are alike they both heavy and does big damage

marth and yoshi are alike cuz they both ahs grab releze thingies on people

donkey kong and lucas are alike they both have slow and powerful smashes and suck against mk

falco and fox are alike they both fall fast and does strong damage with lasers

peach and ganon are alike they both have 15% fairs which do has can strong knockback and they both do powerful grab release on wario

Dancing Blade would definitely be comparable to MK's ftilt if it weren't for the fact that:
- Dancing Blade is actually consistent until higher percentages.
- MK's ftilt is actually easily SDIable.
- Ftilt is actually safe on shield.

MK would be comparable to Marth if:
- He would be able to do multiple horizontal walling moves in 1 SH.
- He would be able to DJ after doing any option out of a shorthop.
- He would kill with grabs.
- He would have a linear recovery.
- He would be able to upB OoS us while we're hitting his shield.
- He would have actual airspeed.
- He would actually kill us at halfway decent percentages.
- He would have a move useable out of a shorthop that is completely safe and uncounterable on reaction in every situation.
- Hitting him would not actually guarantee a strong followup.
- It were possible to powershield his aerials and punish them.
- His groundgame was actually pretty situational outside of a nasty grab. That kills.

There you go, arguments. Now be a nice little **** and start making sense before I post a wall of text that explains how Ganondorf and MK are actually the same character according to your scrub logic.

Scrubs.

[/COLLAPSE]


[COLLAPSE="On Olimar:"]

Nair will either combo Olimar to hell and back at lower percentages, or will generally put him in a very awkward position at higher percentages. His physics just totally fit the move, you know the way you CAN'T nair > grab Falco when he's at 0%? Well, against Olimar you can do that and more. Nair > nair > fsmash, nair > nair > fair > ledge- or edgeguard, nair > jab > grab, ENDLESS AND ENDLESS POSSIBILITIES depending on percentages, you can really knock yourself out on that one.

Aside of how badly his mechanics (his light weight and general floatiness) are, the move is rather safe in general. On shield, it's obviously extremely safe, the first hitbox beats most (not all) of his pikmin moves, if you keep timing it well you can give Olimar a hard time beating it through conventional means.

At higher percentages, its awkward knockback angle can screw him up as well.

Its speed makes it preferable over dair in close combat situations, you definitely can't use it as a long range approach (lol nothing works as a long range approach against Olimar), but its normal uses (decently safe, comboability, speed) are amplified in this MU because of the way Olimar works.

Do know that if Olimar is in the air, you should never fear him. Most of you probably already know this, but for the few who still actually play really safe when he's up there: don't. Every aerial you hit while he's in the air puts him in an even more awkward position, your air game beats his because of the STUPID aspect of his air game that's called priority. All of his aerials can be outprioritized. Of course we don't outrange him, but so long as you time everything well (it's a perfectly human thing to do) you'll beat him regardless. Your fair will beat his, your dair will beat his uair, your uair beats his dair, SO LONG AS YOU TIME IT WELL.

Know when you have to commit to using uair to remove pikmin. When they're on certain parts of your body, you CAN'T KILL THEM WITH NAIR OR DAIR DON'T EVEN BOTHER (i.e. use uair), I'd note exact spots but I usually do it instinctively lol sorry ^^. I hate it when I see Wario players using nair like 5 times to knock off 2 white pikmin, which'll do their 500000% anyway. I know it's a ***** to have uair go stale, but it's better than taking unnecessary damage.

Tires are not really good against Olimar, watch Krys' vids against Hilt (I believe it was Hilt), Pikmin are way more expendable and practically beat them out.

Standing on a platform is never safe, usmash usmash usmash usmash and there's nothing you can do. You can, in fact, even just get pushed off and the greedy ******* can go for another safe usmash.

You can go for dropzone fairs, they're safe so long as you recover by biking AWAY from the stage, and then DJing back to either the ledge or onstage itself (whichever one seems more safe). Watch out for dem purple pikmin though, they'll knock you off your bike

Bike works decently as a ledgeguard, but as I said earlier: the tires are rubbish. More often than not, you're wasting time pulling out your bike.

That's all for now, more later perhaps.

[/COLLAPSE]

[COLLAPSE="On DDD:"]

DDD on Yoshi's is a disaster

[/COLLAPSE]


[COLLAPSE="On MK:"]

You can't space with ground move in general against MK, everything gets upbed or naired or grabbed or dash attacked.

Let me finish being ledgeguarded first:

Being (l)edgeguarded by MK:
This is fairly straightforward, first thing you should get into your head is that you should always go HIGH if possible. The only moment when you shouldn't go high is when you know MK can get to your before you can fully execute your Bike > jump, in which case you are in a stressful position.

Being edgeguarded by MK is a direct consequence of being hit by being hit away. Proper DI should get you high enough to prevent getting gimped or otherwise destroyed offstage before MK has the chance to get to you. It only starts getting slightly complicated if your DI was bad or if MK hit you with a move with a weird angle, like dthrow at high percentages.

First priority is not getting hit by aerial upB. Your airspeed is enough to just space away from MK, don't be afraid to do this even though you're offstage! It doesn't matter how far from the ledge you are horizontally, so long as you're high you should be fine.

There are situations when you just don't have the time to set yourself up for a high recovery without putting yourself at risk. In these situations, too, your aerial mobility finds the way out. If there's no way to be safely above MK, it's still possible to get below him safely. Your fastfall is really, really good. There are enough situations in which you can just fastfall an airdodge through MK and get to the ledge or even the stage safely.

Yes, what I'm saying here is all very abstract and is really just a matter of practice and experience. ''Don't go low'', ''sometimes you can go low'', it's really a matter of proper estimation. It's not a matter of mindgames, it's merely a matter of knowing what to do when. It's almost always possible to get out of a situation by doing the same thing over and over again because offstage situations are always a matter of what's possible. MK isn't flexible in the air compared to Wario, Wario has options and MK can only take away those options if the right starting situation is handed to him.

When you're diagonally below him and outside of his dair range? If you're high, just fastfall towards the stage with an airdodge and it works, regardless of whether MK expects this. If you're low, you're ****ed. Diagonally above MK towards the stage? He's gonna uair you and you'll get back onstage, shrug the 6% off and be on your way. Below him right below the ledge? Just scrooge. It's a matter of right assessment and I won't bother posting walls of text of when to do exactly what, keep thinking logically because the only pressure he has is the extent to which your options are limited because of the situation you're in.

tl;dr don't do stupid things and go high

About scrooging:
It's often good, try not to commit to it when he's in the middle of the stage because he'll just edgehog you for obvious reasons. On SV specifically, you can almost always just scrooge your way back and be safe. This is not MK specific, but it's important enough to be noted.

On being ledgeguarded
Sucks, bigtime. Be patient and don't be afraid to stay on the ledge for quite the while. Refresh your ledge invincibility smartly, do it with your DJ and do it properly so that your head doesn't get above the ledge. If you mess up and MK dtilts you there you're screwed. Ledgejumping is safe. It's almost never the wrong option, it's almost always the best option, even. Normal getup and getup attack are fair options, but only used sparingly, very much so. Just never roll, that stuff sucks balls.

Note that reading that, you have to keep in mind that MK's ledgeguarding pretty much consists of fsmash. He can do all sorts of interesting stuff after it and I'd describe it pretty much the same way as ftilt only it's better

The difference between the ftilt and fsmash ledgeguarding is that your ledgejump actually makes sense, and that changes everything. Even when you ledgejump, however, don't be afraid to just instantly go back to the ledge.

Moar lator, please do also note if something doesn't make a whole lot of sense because I don't review my writings (yeah I'm terrible).

(L)edgeguarding MK:

When MK is offstage (or hell, very high up in the air) he has no reason not to go for the ledge first. Attempting to get back onstage right away only means he's going to get juggled. The edgeguarding situation will never get you killed if you mess up (unless you mess up reallllly badly), the worst that can happen is that you get faired or nadoed. If this happens you can just shrug it off, what's mostly too bad is that you lost your chance to ledgeguard (more on that later).

Before you approach him offstage you have to make the choice whether to do it with bair or with fair. Obviously fair is better if you plan on going far offstage since it lasts shorter (so you aren't straining your own recovery too much). Since bair has more range and more killing power, it should be favored when you plan on being a tad aggressive closer to the ledge (obviously you autoselect bair when coming from the ledge).

So what do I do?
If the MK hasn't got his stuff together and whiffs fairs and dairs you can just punish whatever he does. This is NOT the way he should handle the situation so don't have any expectations with regards to this.

It's more likely that he recovers relatively low, say ledge level, in order to prevent too much aggro coming from you. If he comes back higher than that he's more vulnerable to being chased. By going low he also gives himself the chance to counter your attempts of edgeguarding with his uair, which you can not challenge. If he goes too low you can edgeguard his normal recovery and he'll have to scrooge really low, which you can only really counter with a very well timed fart. Note that this is entirely realistic yet also really annoying and strict to pull off.

When he recovers appropriately as described above he's still somewhat vulnerable to random bairs or fairs from you. Remember that in this situation you are the one actively putting pressure on him. Real pressure. If you chase him too far and don't reach him in time, he can very simply nado back to the stage. This is what the edgeguarding situation is all about and it can be fairly frustrating to get nadoed several times when being ballzy. The only real counter to nado is baiting it from the right distance, getting your footing back onstage and punishing it. The good thing is that because he already spent a big part of the nado duration traveling back onstage, he can no longer space it too well outside of your punishing range.

What this means is, if you correctly read the nado recovery and handle the situation well, you have yourself a setup for a fsmash. A KILL

However, there are quite a few variables which can make the whole process of predicting and punishing the nado a bit difficult. MK has to start it at the right distance and height if you want to get anything out of it. It's really hard to describe and you should really just experience with it until you get the estimation skills required down.

If he doesn't recover with nado you can get fairs and bairs, it's simple as that (unless, as said, he scrooges).

Ledgeguarding MK
Even though the two terms are technically the same, I use the term ledgeguarding for withholding your opponent from getting back onstage from the ledge.

MK is safe here, do not make any attempts to get within the range of his uair or fair (through the stage) unless you want to do something ******** like an anti-plank fart (of which I'm not even sure it's possible since you can't fastfall it, I wouldn't bother trying myself unless I'm at a stock deficit and getting timed out).

MK's options are limited, actually not practically existent. They all rely on you messing up and this is really the one point on which every Wario out there (yes, also Glutonny or whoever your idol is) can improve and will always be able to improve. It's all a matter of timing ftilt.

Ftilt. Beats. Everything. This counts for almost every matchup, the move seems to be designed for use when ledgeguarding. Its range is preposterous and the move design is almost to abstract for me to handle. It beats everything because the cooldown lag is nonexistent, if MK does a ledgejump the cooldown lag is so low that you are able to react to it in time. His ledgejump puts him at an awful height, exactly the height on which he can be juggled. If they commit to this just react and exploit the situation accordingly. Ledgeroll takes too long, especially after 100%, same counts for normal getup. The setup is fairly simple: you stand outside of ledge attack range and you wait for him to get up.

What is the best way MK can deal with this

It's simply airdodging back onstage. That, or perfectly space a nado so that the ftilt doesn't hit him and he can circumvent the active hitbox. That's where your timing comes in: time the ftilt so that you either catch his 2 frame landing or that you beat out nado with it. It's annoyingly strict and takes a lot of practice to get down. Note that if you expect the airdodge landing you can also go in with a nair and punish it more easily, yet this is a commitment that loses to MK opting not to act at all.

At any case, you have the advantage even when he does get back up. MK needs space to execute his moves safely, don't stress when he gets back.

A bit too busy to bring this any further, more later...

I don't see how going aggro is ever a good idea. Going aggro pretty much equals committing to getting frame trapped.

If you stick to shielding you pretty much force MK to box with you, or at least to commit to grabbing. Those are the situations in which you win simply because you can afford to lose boxing games much more often than MK.

Learn how to grab in between the hits of his ftilt, have a developed muscle reflex for nair out of shield and get used to being extremely patient and enduring several hits before you actually do something interesting yourself. If you get aggravated because you're getting hit whilst seemingly doing nothing in return, you're not going to win the MU.

If you're dying at 130%... either your DI is flawed or you have the tendency to jump into fsmashes. UpB should only be killing fresh at uh, 150%? Dsmash about the same. While the latter is not necessarily stale, upB is a move that you will get hit by.

In fact, if you are never getting hit by upB either the MK doesn't know how to handle the MU or you're Glutonny in terms of epic play. Getting hit by upB is inevitable and not that much of a problem. It only deals 9% fresh and it just sends you upwards without any strong or guaranteed followups. Grounded upB is really the most important move of the MU, let me get this straight:

It's retardedly safe on shield, get rid of this 2008 mentality of it being a free fart of uair.

If you're getting uairs and farts, your opponent is a scrub and doesn't deserve winning this matchup. If MK cancels the thing properly you can only get weak punishes and only if you specifically read the cancel, at best you can get weak punishes, and only if you buffer those correctly.

Thing is, he has other options. He can keep gliding and cancel whenever he wishes (be it in front or behind you) or glide attack timed the way he wants to, even going as far as glide attacking the back of your shield.

All in all, he has a ton of mixups and you must challenge him in this as well, if you decide to leave this bull**** for what it is because it sucks getting mind****ed you're giving him a free ticket to spam the same move over and over again. Again the same thing I said about shielding: if he loses the skirmish your punish is way more powerful than anything he could do to you if he were to win it. He grabs you? At mid percentages you'll eat 12% and be on your way, if he eats a grab he's going to be in a position in which you can do MORE to him. More importantly, you should kill him 60% earlier than he'll kill you.

As for farts, don't expect to hit them exactly at the right time because you probably won't. That's another scrub mentality thing I keep seeing on these boards that make me cringe every time I see people be positive about the MU. You cannot force airdodges and you cannot punish anything with it. Even if you make hard reads it usually isn't possible to make use of it and get that 1:50 fart in there to kill him at 60%, just don't expect it to happen. You can hit farts, mind you, but they won't be as awesome or rewarding as you'd want them to be. Aside of the difficulty of landing the farts in the first place, the tempo of this MU is really slow and doesn't lend itself for a stock every 1.30 minute.

Well then Chair, how do you get kills? Kind reader, you get kills as they present themselves to you. I never go into the MU expecting to kill earlier than 170 or so %, when fthrow kills the guy. As his percentage gets higher, your range of killing move increases. No, that's not so obvious. MK will keep relying on the same killing moves from a certain percentage. Let's just assume that he won't really hit you with an fsmash at the right percentage, what are his moves? Dsmash, fresh upB, nair. Eventually uair and to a lesser extent offstage dairs. He won't effectively start killing until 160-170%, eventually uthrow at what, 200?

Your arsenal of killing move gradually grows more diverse the higher his percentage gets. Depending on where on the stage you are, your killing moves range from fart to fsmash/uair to nair to bair to fthrow. While his moves remain reliant on either making a read or failure on your part (he will only really get a nair when he reads an airdodge or when you fail to correctly space your aerials on his shield), your killing moves are also your damage rackers.

What this means is that MK is required to commit to reads while Wario can technically continue to exploit MK's mistakes. The higher MK gets, the more diverse Wario's killing moves become and the less he has to keep track of move staling.

No longer feel like writing more! Perhaps later. If you guys want anything specific being covered, please ask.

About getting inside:

Read what I wrote earlier. You shield approach a lot and take away space. You get inside when you get the chance to nair OoS. Don't bother trying to get inside, it's an opportunity that presents itself rather than something you can fish for.

Also, don't play wifi. Good luck grabbing in between the hits of ftilt with 10 frames of lag.

No. It's exactly what you're saying and more, uair is broken as well as nado.

'But Lord Chair, you can dair nado!'

No. No no no no no no. If you can dair MK's nado then you're playing a stupid MK who doesn't know how to space his nado. Nado beats an aerial Wario unless his still has his DJ.

'Then save you DJ!'

Ya really, 80% of you guys don't and won't an no one exploits you for doing that. DJing is a main spacing tool against MK and sadly, once you use it you've lost a lot of defensive options already, but approaching without it is a fairly hard thing to do. It's the reason the MK MU is so fricking annoying: you cannot do anything to him unless you commit to stuff that gets you ****ed if read: nothing is safe.

Matchup is stupid. MK beats us on the ground AND in the air if properly handled. We don't beat him directly, we only 'beat' him because we can take more punishment and deal it more easily through high damage stupid **** (read: uair). That's the only reason this MU is doable.

landing with nair on MK's shield isnt a bad thing per se, its necessary to mix your landing up (including doing it on his shield) to have you nair remain relatively safe, if you never do it you give MK the space to punish it with dash attack or dash grab (or nado)

Kinda what BR says, there's this thing called landing frames. We don't move faster than nado (we really don't) so airdodging through it is a no-no.

DJing in the MU is only useful either when you actually make a good read/bait, or when you have to escape pressure (like nado).

Dair/footstool is only possible when you hit the CENTER of the nado. The sides of the nado are pure hitbox, and dairing (or trying to footstool them) serves no purpose. What is this nado spacing I'm talking about? Well, go figure. It means getting zoned out, forced to use your DJ and being nadoed when you're just about 2-3 Warios above the stage. You can Bike away, but that's only another resource depleted and it doesn't net you a punish, since it takes too much time to use it, jump off it and actually fall back down to the height you were at before the whole ordeal took place.

Farting nado is equally impossible when it's spaced well.

[/COLLAPSE]


[COLLAPSE="On G&W:"]

SH fair (as well as bair, but fair is more flexible) beats SH nair. His SH nair is really his best and ONLY effective wall in this matchup, and it's really good. It's your job to make him think twice before doing so, simple fairs do this rather effectively.

Thing is, strong fair (at lower percent) or weak fair (at higher percent) is a really powerful setup into grab, G&W has to care about not getting hit all the time just because he overcommits to nairing.

Really, what you really have to worry about is G&Ws who know they can get away with just randomly spamming usmash.

how to play against gaw if you are an aggro wario who is pissed off?

You don't, you'll get nair comboed to 80 and get killed by usmash in less than 20 seconds.

OK time for a monster post cause S!C is German.

The thing with G&W is that he has a lot of stuff to beat you out, and will frequently do just that. What nacks him is the fact that even if he hits you, he won't necessarily get funny follow-ups unless you're at low percentages.

Low percentages netting him stuff like nair > nair > lololol uair stuff which may or may not nack you your DJ and blah, requires him to get certain reads to fully utilize your position but getting racked to say, 40% from 0 isn't that rare. Those situations are fully avoidable, too.

What you don't want to be doing is committing to vertical approaches too often. He'll practically beat those out most of the time by just SH nairing, which is his main spacing tool in this matchup. Aside of beating out vertical approaches, it also beats shield approaches if spaced correctly. Shield approach is pretty much completely safe in this matchup, and will often net you a certain amount of zoning, and rarely more than that.

Commit to shield approaching too much, and it gets baired. Bair on your shield is unpunishable, don't try to nair OoS chase him or anything like that, he can practically just walk away and don't really be bothered by your reaction.

Back to nair, simple SH fairs and bairs will beat it out. It's a bit of a silly rock-paper-scissors, in which neither player will really be able to commit to high-risk, high-reward stuff. G&W can sort of wall, but it never really nets him zoning. His 'walling' consists of actually just random usmashes and dtilts, which are fairly safe for him to do. Really, if he just charges an usmash a bit away from you, the only thing you'll really be able to do is slowly walk up to him and perfectly time a ftilt. It's a rather annoying situation, obviously hitting the thing nets you 14% (or a kill), but a slight mistiming kills you in a fairly silly manner.

Dtilt is more easily punishable, dash shield beats it unless it's perfectly spaced. If he doesn't get to perfectly space it, you can either shieldgrab it or shielddrop fsmash/jab.

Random gimmick: if G&W uairs your Bike after throwing it it becomes his projectile and flies pretty damn high.

UpB also beats your vertical approaches, and you really need to read it in order to effectively punish it with uair, it's really his best escaping tool, getting him to think twice of doing it by at least showing you're willing to make a read like that will help you enormously in this MU. G&W doesn't like to be uaired, especially with farts killing him at the percentages they do.

If you have a lead, you are in a stupidly good position since G&W's approach game on Wario is trash. Once you have a stock lead, his non-killing nairs, bairs and upbs suddenly lose all their value while every bit of damage you manage to get in means quite a lot.

G&W's killing potential in this MU is a bit sad, he shouldn't be able to get kills with anything but fair (requiring a read), dair (requiring you to mess up) or smashes (which require a hard read). Messing up and getting hit by dair is something that can easily happen though, it's hard to beat it out with uair, especially since its fall speed differs. Damage ranges you have to keep track of:

Starting from ~80%: sweetspot smashes (avoidable)
Starting from something like 140-160%, depending on position: fair and sourspot dsmash
Starting from 160%: low dairs

Recover high, no point in recovering low.

Ftilt is situational but beats or clashes with pretty much everything he has, correctly spaced. That correct spacing requires a lot of practice and experience though.

Jab > fsmash guaranteed at like, the perfect percentages (100 or so). Nair > grab guaranteed at 0, nair > fsmash isn't.

Plenty of fart opportunities in this matchup, some situational some near-guaranteed:
- You can practically SDI bair and fart him.
- Edgehog his upB, fart him when he gets the landing animation he gets when he lands during the apex of his upB.
- Dthrowing him off-stage and farting is... well not really guaranteed. He has very few options though, none of them being too practical (or fast enough). For him, airdodging, upBing or uairing are really his best options. In my experience, it works often enough but it's kinda gimmicky, use to your own liking.
- Reading an upB not only nets you an uair but can also get you a fart.
- Offstage pressure if he doesn't recover high or low enough (read: if he messes up recovering).
- Camp the **** out of him if you have a lead and punish random desperate fairs he throws out trying to kill you

Nair is broken in this MU. Also, you fly over his dsmash SH nairing, hitting his head and beating the attack out.

When on the ledge, you have no reason to ever do anything other than ledgejumping if you actually plan on getting back on-stage. Ledgehop airdodge or something to annoy him is fairly safe.

When he is on the ledge, don't start jumping or stuff. Just wait for him to do something and proceed to exploit the bad situation he'll inevitably get himself into.

If spaced correctly, you can't shieldgrab or nair OoS his dair.

Gimmicky: If he like to usmash > dtilt on your shield, you can really beat it with jab or fsmash if the usmash wasn't spaced well.

Fthrow > uthrow.

Teching dthrow means he can never get something stronger than dash attack or grab (or lol2hitsofbair).

Too lazy for more, want to get back to chatting and gaming.

[/COLLAPSE]


[COLLAPSE="On Diddy:"]

Bike.

Once you understand, you'll understand why this was worth a thread.

This should've been common knowledge since 2009 but people still fail to implement it.

With this write-up, I assume you are all aware of the knowledge one is already ought to have about this MU. I won’t tell you how to instant-throw, how to Z-catch, how to ban FD or that Diddy’s utilt can, in fact, kill.

Nana on shield vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pX9qzcaKL-g

Avast.

First things first, Diddy cannot commit to doing nothing, and he doesn’t have spammable safe options. The matchup will largely be about whether or not Wario is able to keep up pressure without feeling obliged to keep being agro. Controversial? No. Pressuring Diddy means withholding him from getting nanas, and that’s about as easily done as it is said (ya, really).

What is pressure:

- Being close to him.

Yeah, simple as that. It’s not like as if him predicting you’ll retreat safely means he can pull a nana. If he doesn’t have a nana, he can’t defend himself without either giving up space or committing to something punishable. His (character specific) defensive options are pretty much retreating bair/fair, pivot grab and utilt. If he reads an aerial approach, he’ll be able to beat it. Of course, you’re Wario. So you fake a lot of **** until he does something punishable, of which you'll take your obvious advantage. That advantage isn't necessarily something big, don't expect to uair a grounded Diddy a lot, but it's an advantage you can build further advantages from.

Aerial Diddy = yay Diddy.
Diddy on the ledge = yay Diddy.
Diddy on the ground = meh Diddy.
Diddy with nanas on the ground = fu.

Oh, that was basic knowledge, my bad. Diddy's aerial mobility is kinda bad and his options limited. It's easy to bait all sorts of stuff, but you can expect a good Diddy to not airdodge close to the ground: we can't punish a spaced fair on our shield.

When grabbing Diddy, don't dthrow. Just don't. Uthrow is situational, fthrow does the same thing but usually better: either he DIs it upwards and can be edgeguarded/juggled, or he DIs it downwards (at lower%) and grab the ledge. Ledgeguarding Diddy is yummy. Bthrow if it means you'll get to ledgguard, rather than fthrowing him across the stage and dashing after him.

About ledgeguarding:
Shielding near the ledge is safe and will net you a punish if he tries to be reckless. However, a good Diddy will know not to try anything in a situation like that. If you stand too close to the ledge shielding, he can ledgehop fair your shield and retreat to the ledge safely. He can technically Monkey Flip grab your shield as well, this is something really basic which you sometimes see working against people with MU inexperience. If you see him leaving the ledge, you should be wanting to punish whatever he does with an aerial (unless you specifically predict a ledgeroll/attack/getup, in those cases you can go for a smash). Your counters are fairly straightforward, you can beat the Flip Kick with a shieldgrab or FH dair and you can beat a ledgejump by simply taking advantage of the situation (you should know how to). The key to this whole ordeal is to STAY PATIENT. He can technically camp you by just spamming ledgedrop upB, don't even bother trying to punish it. Keep your spacing (which should be just outside his ledge attack/fair range) and wait for him to do something.

When to fart:
Diddy is rather fartable, or so to speak. His recovery is one situation of which you can make splendid use (more on that later), so are juggles, airdodged aerials (all of them except for bair have very noticeable lag), Flip Kicks and landings (though you might as well consider those a part of the juggling process). All of these situations tend to be inevitable, and should be consider reliable killing situations.

About edgeguarding:
You get Diddy offstage in a lot of ways: the ways you get people offstage in general (no ****ing **** *** Sherlock). In pretty much all of these situations, you should be able to exploit his recovery in some way, unless you knocked him away across the stage. A predicted Flip Kick means you can ledge drop bair or fair him. If he drops low, fair is usually guaranteed (just get your *** back ASAP, even if that means you have to be content with doing 5% damage and committing to a ledgeguard situation). If he goes high, it's practically a juggle trap only with him having even less space and options than usual. Important note: you can beat his barrel startup with nair, but once he releases it, it beats you out. Don't try and nair gimp his barrels unless you are absolutely sure you'll take him out with it, it sucks dying because you didn't manage to assess the situation correctly. In general, edgeguarding Diddy is definitely possible, but I personally feel like ledgeguarding is just that much more profitable. If Diddy still has his jump, be aware of him having the option of simply DJ fairing whatever you may want to do to him. It'll technically beat all your silly attempts of edgeguarding. If he's close to the ledge and still has his jump left, just commit to the ledgeguard.

About nanas:
When they do happen to come into play, don't be afraid of them unless there's 2 and he's in control of both of them. Wario is an awesome character to work around nanas with. His item game in and by itself isn't awesome, his glidetoss and followups are good, but he's awful at trip-techchasing and his throwing speed is sluggish. His main asset is being able to catch and control the nanas. When Diddy has nanas, there's nothing wrong with simply SH fairing. You don't necessarily have to hit him or his shield, spacing SH fairs from a distance is perfectly safe. If he figures he can safely throw his nana towards you he'll be wrong, you can catch it by landing an airdodge or nair, or by DJing another fair. If all else fails, you can just DJ away. Stay patient, don't try to uair an 'armed' Diddy, and try to limit dairing. You can nair to a certain extent, but I recommend being stubborn and annoyingly safe by just sticking to fair. If Diddy has a nana in hand and another one lying close to him, and you're in the air without a jump, don't panic. You have options. Or well, if Diddy times the nana right, by making it his you just at the time you'd be landing, you can't really catch it anymore. If you expect him to do just that, just bike. When Wario is biking/pulling out his bike, Diddy can't hit him with nana's while remaining grounded. They'll deflect off the bike and you can safely mind your business. In fact, if you specifically predict a nana toss, you'll punish him in his cooldown lag, he'll lose his control of both nanas and he's off flying to places he doesn't really want to be flying to. It's actually, at any rate, a very low risk, very high reward situation.

About killing:
Don't depend on fsmash, you'll get chances to use it, but you shouldn't take them for granted per se. Same deal about uair, and same deal about fart. Consider Diddy the same deal as all other characters: you can't throw out safe killing **** until he falls into it. Sometimes, if Diddy plays it really well, you just won't get the chance to kill early. In those cases, feel free to rack him till percentages in which you can force edgeguards or him being above you. If all else fails, follow the advice I'd give in every lightweight MU: wait until 170% and kill with dair or nair.

Diddy's killing options are rather limited, close to being lulzy. It's hard for him to keep fair fresh, and if you play it safe, he shouldn't see killing with smashes as a realistic thing to do. This isn't necessarily because it's so hard to hit with them, but also because he might as well rack another 20% and get you into utilt/fair killing percentages (you should be able to survive fsmash and dsmash at 150%). He gradually gets more killing options, and you should know when to keep track of another one. Once you're at 170-180%, he'll probably commit to utilt which is, tragically, extremely safe.

About Bite:
It's usable in this MU, it's very realistic to pressure Diddy into shielding, and it eats quite a few of Diddy's moves. Moves it won't beat:

- Fair

- Dsmash

Those are the only ones you should care about. Of course it also eats his nanas, but you shouldn't really aim for that unless you see a great opportunity to use the laglessness of it by means of baiting.

About patience:
You can generally keep going aggro (note that my definition of aggro is: putting active pressure), don't commit to holding back unless you know you're simply at an disadvantage. Take it easy on the ledge, there's little he can do while you're hanging there.


Ratio (experience against a LOT of Diddy's, favorite and most played MU):

60:40, making Wario a solid counter.

If anything is unclear, do feel free to ask. Posting this now because I feel like it, not necessarily because I think I covered everything

[/COLLAPSE]


[COLLAPSE="On Bite:"]

Poor range, unimpressive speed, not fastfallable and why was your opponent below you shielding again?

Not saying it's bad but calling it underrated is silly at best and I'm fairly sure that most Wario players would be off better using it less frequently (or better) than they are doing currently.

[/COLLAPSE]

[COLLAPSE="On Marth:"]

Shaya once sent me an Excel file with all the data which I for some reason have deleted.

From what I remember, the 2008 frame data thread http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=204825 is fairly accurate.

I don't like to use frame data as a means of defining a matchup, however. While I extensively apply it during gameplay, mere numbers can't give strong enough an insight in the MU (look at Mario's frame data, that stuff is ridiculously broken). Marth's spacing is in an entire league of its own in terms of safety, versatility and pressure. A retreating nair is safe in every possible way, the only way to effectively counter it is by accepting the fact that you just got a tad bit more zoning, IF IT'S WHIFFED.

There's the thing, there's the moving wall concept Marc is so salty about. If it's whiffed it's... sorta ok? If it hits you it hits you, if it hits your shield you're in a worse position than before.

Honestly, nair on shield gives him so many options which are safe to throw out. Not safe because you have to make a fairly hard read to counter it, but because there's just extremely minimal counterplay to every followup he makes. Even if you commit to making a read, you face the problem that a missed read almost always loses to whatever other option he's choosing to commit to. You predict that tipper fsmash after the nair? Only real counterplay is spotdodging (and timing it well, too!). If you spotdodge and he decides to go for another SH nair, SH fair, jab, dtilt or simply doing nothing you'll get wrecked for it. Your amount of effective counterplay options already greatly diminishes when you get to fsmash killing percent, if only because getting grabbed is almost inevitable with the amount of commitments Wario has to make.

If you stop committing because you're afraid of being grabbed, you stop having options and the MU is over. You must commit to shield approaches to (re)take zoning, you must commit to bland SH fairs to beat his fastfalled aerials and you must commit to FH DJ dair (note: FH DJ dair is probably the most commitment you can put in an approach) if you want to beat out mere advancing nairs. Marth constantly forces you to react even though he doesn't even have to throw anything out to do that. If he simply dashes at you you must make a choice, a choice that has a large chance of being countered by an empty shorthop.

As said, you're forced to throw out stuff you don't usually want to randomly throw out. His empty short hop is deadly because if you don't have the balls to go up to him and commit to an advancing fair (you can try bair but fair being a lasting hitbox is an important asset) he's going to give you headaches with whatever option he chooses.

I'm not sure if I'm repeating things, if that's the case I'm sorry this is just a stream of consciousness.

Being ledge trapped is also stupid and you must force yourself to either spend resources to go high enough to have a shot of safely landing onstage (resources being a double jump and perhaps your bike) or to do something that simply isn't safe, like ledge hopping a Bite or an airdodge. Again, you have to respond. You can't stay on the ledge especially with how tight Wario's ledge invincibility refresh options are, keep in mind that having your double jump dtilted means death. You must respond to him whiffing fastfalled aerials and dtilts at your ledge position, you can't do that with an aerial of your own (in fact, trying to break his wall by doing that and failing means losing your DJ and losing your stock). If you want to come back with an aerial you have to catch him in the startup frames of his jump or simply before he throws out his aerial. How do you do that? Yeah, by starting your move way in advance and risking being dtilted.

It's just really stupid, I'm just sketching scenarios here that are mere examples of the tons and tons of ******** situations you can be put in if Marth is capable of keeping his execution on-point. If you think I am leaving out Wario's counterplay then you should read again because I noted the sort of counterplay Wario tends to have: risky stuff with a meager tradeoff. Stuff that takes a while to actually become a strong setup. You are entirely dependent in this matchup of Marth simply messing up.

And there is the good news: perfect execution from Marth's part is not a human thing. Honestly it's inevitable to mess up for Marth, more so than for any other character we can play against (looks at MK). He will mess up and that will net you something you would otherwise never have access to. Think of a fastfalled uair or simply a SH nair (Marth's physics are PERFECT for Wario's nair), these are moves you would otherwise never get and you'd be stuck with chipping away with fairs, bairs and throws with minimal followup potential (at low%) until they actually become a setup for themselves or other moves (at higher%).

That's how (imo) anyone in here should judge what the MU ratio is. It entirely depends on how perfect you think a human can control Marth and how that translates into this matchup. I believe that level of perfection is potentially very high and that's why I rate it -2.

QED

Marth:
Yeah, I've played this matchup more often than is healthy and I still don't have it down 100%. I've played Mr. R, Leon, Mintyflesh and Bardull among others and it always seemed like a Cambridge fraternity meeting: you do one thing wrong and you're out. The messed up thing is that you can always do something wrong, you never realistically have breathing room.

You cannot camp Marth. Camping Marth means giving up precious zoning without reliable means of getting it back. That's one of the major advantages Marth has in the MU, his zoning is safe and ours isn't. You cannot zone safely with shield approaches, even those are a commitment to make if Marth decides to just pressure it with fastfalled aerials. The whole point of the matchup is to force him to retreat those and try and do something with the space you create. It's a tiresome process that usually ends up you being naired once or twice before you actually get something done.

Our OoS options are too slow against Marth and our means of pressuring his shield are all commitments. Our boxing game is not threatening because every whiff is a punish.

Honestly the only things I see Wario having against Marth are strong (l)edgeguarding, Marth being fairly comboable and Marth being vulnerable at high angles. That's nothing new, there are more matchups (in our favor!) that feature these aspects. The problem against Marth is that we don't have near invincibility to back it up with. We get pressured, we get edgeguarded and we get killed below 100%. We have no gimmicks, no broken fart setups and all in all no strong counterplay to the fundamental assets Marth has in this matchup.

FH airdodge is terribad because it doesnt cover anything it just stalls the ****

You can only real punish his fair with your own fair if:

- It's a non-spaced non-tipper (or a terribly spaced tipper) AND
- It's not fastfalled.

The problem with gimping Marth is the fact that you have to come from slightly below him if you want to execute it properly. Fair doesn't have the range to weave in and out with (offstage that is) and bair doesn't quite gimp him. You can rack damage on him somewhat (offstage) but you can't gimp him so much.

The options you name, invincifarting and nairing his upB, can definitely work. They are extremely hard to execute however. While I usually don't take execution difficulty into account in matchups, it's simply not realistic to gimp Marth this way. You don't have much of a timeframe to work with in contrast to the window Marth has to perform his recovery.

If Marth DIs properly and has his jump, you don't have much of a chance to gimp him. If you managed to make him use his jump (or he just jumps stupidly) you can definitely gimp him with the proper execution, but I don't really recommend invincinairing/farting.

If Marth just randomly SH fairs your shield without the proper spacing then he's not treating the MU properly.

[/COLLAPSE]


[COLLAPSE="On Snake:"]

I played Ramin's Snake yesterday and it went pretty well aside of being techchased for 40+% like, every time he grabbed me. I've played quite a few Snakes by now, including Ally, Razer, Calzorz (EU top Snake) and Squall, but none of them did it the way Ramin put it into practice.

If Snake jabs right after the dthrow, it beats out getup attack and practically beats normal getup as well: he'll jab your invincibility frames and will be able to grab you on reaction (guaranteed), same counts for rolling behind him.

He and I tested around a bit (read: it took me a while to adapt to his grab fishing and I got techchased quite often for a while) and I realized how stupid a position Wario is really in when being dthrown by Snake. I recall having been techchased a tad by the Snakes mentioned earlier, but with Ramin it just seemed absolutely hopeless. The only real options seemed to be rolling away, or getup attack predicting him predicting a roll away. Everything else would just get punished on reaction. Getting grabbed facing the ledge (or on a platform, though that rarely happened) was demoralizing like hell.

Of course, jab also beats doing nothing, but in a different sense. Technically, expecting the inevitable jab should allow Wario to SDI it and prevent guaranteed followups of happening. It took me a while to properly SDI the jab, and it's still a rather awkward position to be in, but it's in no way as bad as having the tech chase continued. This should actually be the best solution to the whole thing, I do realize that, but I figured mentioning the whole jab thing would be worthwhile (especially since Ramin was actually the first one I've seen it put into practice regularly, he told me he was told to do so by Ally, whom explained he preferred not to do it himself (without explaining that specific preference, oh well)).

NOTE THAT BUFFERING A BITE AFTER BEING JABBED BEATS OUT ANY NORMAL FOLLOWUPS

Random subject is random. Oh and on another note, techchasing on BF's top platform with uthrow at lower percentages is rather pro (why didn't I notice that before O_O).

[/COLLAPSE]

[COLLAPSE="On Ftilt:"]

Ftilt beats everyone on the ledge, really.

It's a stupid move.

[/COLLAPSE]

 

[Kaffei]

Very cool! Thanks =D

 

[Laem]

Chair's infinite words of infinite wisdom.
Except bite. That move's still good.

 

[-Jumpman-]

Chair's infinite words of infinite wisdom.
Except bite. That move's still good.

In teams, singles it's okay.

 

[Gichan]

Damn, great insight on the MUs posted, thanks chair.

 

[Calzorz]

ramin doesnt have them zorz tech chases (H) but iv quit now so he probs does l0l

 

[Lord Chair]

DAT NAMESEARCH LOL

its cool callum your tech chases were scarier and less scrubby

 

[Dynomite]

I like the thread. few notes have been taken

 

[Kuro~]

Calzorz quit?

 

[Calzorz]

DAT NAMESEARCH LOL

its cool callum your tech chases were scarier and less scrubby

haha namesearch to good i dont get on here often anymore

and yea iv quit for now il mybe make a comeback when i want to play again but cant see it happening anytime soon kuro^^

 

[Kuro~]

haha namesearch to good i dont get on here often anymore

and yea iv quit for now il mybe make a comeback when i want to play again but cant see it happening anytime soon kuro^^

Welp there goes one of europes more prominent snakes

Put on a good show there for a while calz(calzorz). Props to you.

 

[Calzorz]

Welp there goes one of europes more prominent snakes

Put on a good show there for a while calz(calzorz). Props to you.

lol thanks my goal was only to get u.k and myself recognised and i did that so i can just travel and get drunk at pub while they are at tourny and il coach u.k players still

 

[Kuro~]

lol thanks my goal was only to get u.k and myself recognised and i did that so i can just travel and get drunk at pub while they are at tourny and il coach u.k players still

Haha sounds good. Glad u accomplished your goal.

 

[Lord Chair]

gtfo my thread

 

[Labernash]

Good stuff Chair. It's not until you got a bunch of your posts together when I realize your funny.

Lulz. Bolus.

 

[(S!C)]

ddd on yoshis is free, just bikejump away and **** him up, after 7 minutes you can start fight if you want..

 

[B.Mack]

DDD on Yoshis is horrible... if you go below the platform. if you stay above the platform and avoid getting hit, forcing D3 to come up or dropping down for no more than a split second to punish. but on the whole you're better off taking him to BF or smashville for a neutral.

against DDD... BITE. ****. this move is actually so good on D3. and his weight/size make it SO easy to combo. if D3 is offstage you can literally just bite/fair and read him for ages. If I still played this game I would test it with someone but... *shrug*