Guide Mario matchup thread

[The21stSmasher]

Normally people would say " we are discussing so and so and this is off topic" but I'll help you out 50:50/55:45 shulk has range in his favor but that's it mario has better mobility a great gimping tool amazing frame data and combos he can't escape he has counter to escape up tilt but it can be predectid and can be punished from a grab EDIT: I feel that this is one of those matchups people say so and so goes even or wins because of this small advantage they are giving to much credit to

Well, it was Mario Match-Up related, so I thought it wouldn't be off-topic, but thanks.

 

[miniada]

Well, it was Mario Match-Up related, so I thought it wouldn't be off-topic, but thanks.

Your welcome Tell me if this advice was helpful in actual matches with other people

Discuss

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IMO
50:50 link is heavy and gas tons of range and ko power and priority but Mario's cape mobility frame data and combo abalities makes this even
45:55 mario has better mobility better frame data can gimp her recovery can stop her landing but zelda kills better
60:40 she can wall him out with Fair has great frame data and punish game can gimp Mario
50:50 before all the patches I would have said mario beats ganondorf but ganondorf has better range and hit boxes which gives mario a hard time mario does have better frame data mobility and can combo him
50:50 tink outrangel mario and beats out fireballs but Mario's cape and punish game make it even
EDIT: forgot to fix the title sorry about that

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ganon vs Mario on default settings is 55/45 Ganon imo.

The main thing Mario has on Ganon is a good juggle game. At low percents, Ganon is fairly easily comboed to mid percents, and pressured with D-air if he makes a mistake. Due to Mario's mobility, Ganon has to play this matchup very reactively, given it's not wise for him to whiff moves carelessly.

That being said, I put the matchup at Ganon's favor for a number of reasons. The first being, he obviously outranges Mario pretty hard. Mario simply can't approach directly past Ganon's N-air and D-tilt. He has to bait them out, which is not exactly trivial given Mario does not have strong forward facing spacing tools to easily capitalize on demand, especially in the air. Ganon's N-air at worst will trade with Mario's B-air, which is favorable for Ganon as this both does more damage and puts Mario in a position to be juggled.

Mario's fireball is not exactly that great for pressuring Ganon in neutral. Aside from perfect shielding existing, Ganon can simply swat a fireball on reaction with N-air if Mario tries to get overaggressive, which results in a nullified fireball and a boot to Mario's face. The best time for Mario to throw a fireball is barely outside of Ganon's DA range to try to stop and punish a dash-in attempt from Ganon. This technically can be spaced safely, but the exact leeway you have for this spacing is fairly strict, so it shouldn't be relied on given any further away, it's not limiting Ganon's significantly more threatening midrange options in neutral, and any closer Mario risks eating DA or Wizkick punish on reaction.

Finally, the other big reason Ganon comes out ahead this matchup is superior edgeguards. Ganon has very very good options for consistently edgeguarding Mario's fairly linear recovery. For one, his aerials are huge and very good at trapping airdodges, which can heavily discourage attempts to recover high. For two, Ganon has several aerials that can very reliably contest Mario's Up-B directly. N-air typically will trade with Mario's Up-B outside of the very beginning of the move, and on a trade this usually gimps Mario. F-air on a good read also trades with Mario's Up-B and pretty much instakills whoever it hits offstage. tipman U-air while a bit conditional actually cleanly beats Mario's Up-B and will gimp him in that situation easily too. Mario in contrast is significantly more limited at edgeguarding Ganon unless Ganon DIs rather poorly. FLUDD can be airdodged on reaction and won't reach low enough below the stage to stop Ganon from simply Up-Bing to the ledge, and Mario often has considerable trouble Caping Ganon's Up-B especially if Ganon has room to recover with it in reverse. His best option usually to edgeguard Ganon is to try to go semi-deep with N-air, but a Ganon that saves his midair jump properly can actually kill Mario for attempting this in some situations with double jump U-air, so generally speaking it's more trouble than it's worth for Mario to attempt edgeguarding Ganon except in situations where anyone would get a free edgeguard against bad DI.

That's just reasons why Ganon has the advantage. As for how the matchup plays in general, Mario typically wants to get in with either a SH-airdodge, a dashgrab, or an inward roll. Ganon can often cover all of these options with a properly spaced N-air, which lingers and has a very wide hitbox. That being said, an inward roll sometimes is the easiest way for Mario to fish for a grab, but Mario should be wary of Ganon reading this with pivot F-tilt, U-smash, or Flame Choke, all of which are highly devastating punishes.

When Mario does get in, ideally he should be getting Ganon from around 9% -> 50% pretty reliably, and D-throw -> U-air x2 combos for a fair bit of time after that initial string. D-airs are good for covering options when juggling too, not to mention U-smash. However Mario DOES have to play respectfully against aerial Wizkick. Aerial Wizkick can be used to whiff punish U-tilt strings at specific percent ranges, and it's very dangerous to try U-smashing Ganon out of aerial Wizkick, as this will often trade hits, and assuming you comboed Ganon to mid to high percents, this can often kill Mario as early as 80%. So while Mario's juggle game is strong on Ganon, Ganon's landing isn't exactly free and has to be respected.

Customs on, the matchup is 60/40 Mario's favor as Fast Fireballs and Scalding FLUDD can wall Ganon's options consistently, and he can KO confirm Ganon with D-throw Shocking Cape which lets Mario actually properly take advantage of his damage dealing abilities and not worry about risking a lot fishing for kills. As long as Mario avoids getting sent offstage necessarily, customs matchup goes pretty well into his favor. Ganondorf might run Dark Fists to cheese Mario for being too aggressive, but otherwise he doesn't really benefit as much from customs.

 

[miniada]

Ganon vs Mario on default settings is 55/45 Ganon imo.

The main thing Mario has on Ganon is a good juggle game. At low percents, Ganon is fairly easily comboed to mid percents, and pressured with D-air if he makes a mistake. Due to Mario's mobility, Ganon has to play this matchup very reactively, given it's not wise for him to whiff moves carelessly.

That being said, I put the matchup at Ganon's favor for a number of reasons. The first being, he obviously outranges Mario pretty hard. Mario simply can't approach directly past Ganon's N-air and D-tilt. He has to bait them out, which is not exactly trivial given Mario does not have strong forward facing spacing tools to easily capitalize on demand, especially in the air. Ganon's N-air at worst will trade with Mario's B-air, which is favorable for Ganon as this both does more damage and puts Mario in a position to be juggled.

Mario's fireball is not exactly that great for pressuring Ganon in neutral. Aside from perfect shielding existing, Ganon can simply swat a fireball on reaction with N-air if Mario tries to get overaggressive, which results in a nullified fireball and a boot to Mario's face. The best time for Mario to throw a fireball is barely outside of Ganon's DA range to try to stop and punish a dash-in attempt from Ganon. This technically can be spaced safely, but the exact leeway you have for this spacing is fairly strict, so it shouldn't be relied on given any further away, it's not limiting Ganon's significantly more threatening midrange options in neutral, and any closer Mario risks eating DA or Wizkick punish on reaction.

Finally, the other big reason Ganon comes out ahead this matchup is superior edgeguards. Ganon has very very good options for consistently edgeguarding Mario's fairly linear recovery. For one, his aerials are huge and very good at trapping airdodges, which can heavily discourage attempts to recover high. For two, Ganon has several aerials that can very reliably contest Mario's Up-B directly. N-air typically will trade with Mario's Up-B outside of the very beginning of the move, and on a trade this usually gimps Mario. F-air on a good read also trades with Mario's Up-B and pretty much instakills whoever it hits offstage. tipman U-air while a bit conditional actually cleanly beats Mario's Up-B and will gimp him in that situation easily too. Mario in contrast is significantly more limited at edgeguarding Ganon unless Ganon DIs rather poorly. FLUDD can be airdodged on reaction and won't reach low enough below the stage to stop Ganon from simply Up-Bing to the ledge, and Mario often has considerable trouble Caping Ganon's Up-B especially if Ganon has room to recover with it in reverse. His best option usually to edgeguard Ganon is to try to go semi-deep with N-air, but a Ganon that saves his midair jump properly can actually kill Mario for attempting this in some situations with double jump U-air, so generally speaking it's more trouble than it's worth for Mario to attempt edgeguarding Ganon except in situations where anyone would get a free edgeguard against bad DI.

That's just reasons why Ganon has the advantage. As for how the matchup plays in general, Mario typically wants to get in with either a SH-airdodge, a dashgrab, or an inward roll. Ganon can often cover all of these options with a properly spaced N-air, which lingers and has a very wide hitbox. That being said, an inward roll sometimes is the easiest way for Mario to fish for a grab, but Mario should be wary of Ganon reading this with pivot F-tilt, U-smash, or Flame Choke, all of which are highly devastating punishes.

When Mario does get in, ideally he should be getting Ganon from around 9% -> 50% pretty reliably, and D-throw -> U-air x2 combos for a fair bit of time after that initial string. D-airs are good for covering options when juggling too, not to mention U-smash. However Mario DOES have to play respectfully against aerial Wizkick. Aerial Wizkick can be used to whiff punish U-tilt strings at specific percent ranges, and it's very dangerous to try U-smashing Ganon out of aerial Wizkick, as this will often trade hits, and assuming you comboed Ganon to mid to high percents, this can often kill Mario as early as 80%. So while Mario's juggle game is strong on Ganon, Ganon's landing isn't exactly free and has to be respected.

Customs on, the matchup is 60/40 Mario's favor as Fast Fireballs and Scalding FLUDD can wall Ganon's options consistently, and he can KO confirm Ganon with D-throw Shocking Cape which lets Mario actually properly take advantage of his damage dealing abilities and not worry about risking a lot fishing for kills. As long as Mario avoids getting sent offstage necessarily, customs matchup goes pretty well into his favor. Ganondorf might run Dark Fists to cheese Mario for being too aggressive, but otherwise he doesn't really benefit as much from customs.

you saying ganon beats has got to be the strangest thing ever similar to you had a strong argument mario wins then again the patch made half the charecters mid tier so it is kind of a weird patch

 

[Kulty]

As for , I actually think that Mario loses this MU by a bit. And here's why :
1) Range : the biggest thing that Link can capitalize on, because since he's a sword character, he does have the disjointed range in which Mario can almost do nothing about it, due to his poor frontal approach and poor range. Link can keep Mario from grabbing him, which is probably what Mario players will look after. Also, projectiles for Link are really solid enough to keep Mario away from him and to keep him pressure from a distance. Not advised to spam Cape, since a good Link player can bait Mario to throw out a cape and take a huge punish.
2) KOs : Link can kill Mario quite early. Combining with a good weight and decent fall speed for Link, it can be difficult for Mario to finish off a stock against him.
However, once Mario grabs him, Link is pretty much dead and take the damage, just because he's so vulnerable to Mario's combos and juggles. That's what keeps Link from winning the matchup solidly. Because both of the two characters have sub-par recoveries, if one manages to capitalize on it, they're like out of a stock pretty much. It comes to who can throw off the other first for rapid stock finish. If Mario manages to have the lead, it's duable, because Link is not really the best character for comebacks.

Overall, I put - MU ratio 45-55 (or slightly in Link's favor but not by much)

 

[Zeth444]

60:40
- Links neutral gets pretty hurt by Mario's cape that takes out his projectiles, leaving him with not too many options, been those Zair, Nair and his sword range (and probably others I cant remember Now). Also Mario has an amazing frame data that allows it to stop links jab tricks with Nair, and a terrific offstage game, he even has The option to some times Gimmick Links up-b recover with Down-b. Marios jugle is also a force to be feard.
Of course Link has a very good edgeguard with Arrows, bombs, boomerangs (denyed by cape on many ocasions) and Nair. Not forgeting that His shield denys fireball camping, but in my opinion Mario is more then able to come back with cape to cancel momentum, his great jump and a up-b.

PS: I dont have The deepest understand of Link, so, If anyone disagrees with me, please feel free to send a constructive critic once it can only help me enhance my knolegde about this game

 

[Macedonian]

is +1 on both i would say. we just have all the tools to shut down their projectile game while having better CQC. you not only can reflect the projectiles and fireball clashes with all but bombs, bombs which are still capable ant take a long time to come out.

yes link can combo off grabs and has some very scary range but it is manageable to get through both. for the grabs proper DI up and away from link results i him rarely getting more then 20-25% while mario can much more easily get a grab and take it much higher percents. there are big threats though from the link, the bombs are a huge threat, i like to apply a lot of pressure to make it hard to keep consistent bombs coming out, and if they are out be careful. Where normals are concerned, i find the hyrule heros jab and uptilt to be the workhorses here. The jab is annoying to get around, but ours is faster which helps if we get close. I doe mostly from Upsmashes in this match-up because i jump to ****ing so much so be careful about empty short hops cause that upshamsh hitbox is massive. Link has really good edgaurding on mario. wathout for the Dair and Nair the most. Rembember marios upB can not directly challenge links Dair!! however for mario frop down nair or stage spikes really do work against link alot. Link is also complete combo fodder which is great for us. so shut down the projectile game with cape and fireball and then get in and out combo him!


Toon links better mobility helps him keep mario out, and he gets more off of bomb setups then link does. this matchup is a little faster because generally you chase the link around that throws bombs, however he needs to do that alot just to stay even in damage with us. however it is really nice though that he has a lot less range while having still worse frame data then mario so we can still combo him and kill him much easier then link with an upsmash. try to bait out the Dair in this matchup, watch our for the Zair and lingering upair.

overall I never feel like i lost due to characters in this matchup, we deal with the projectiles exceptionally well and combo much better.

is +1 I Heavily disagree with A2ZOMG , in no world does Gannon Beat mario. look we have a projectile, gannon does not. Mario literally never needs to come to gannon. and gannons midrange options are all supper punishable. choke, wizkick and DA are all really spotdodgeable and punishable for massive damage on gannon. what is annoying here is the range and how hard a few of the normals are to punish like the spartan FTilt. Dont be silly and just rush in right after you get pushed back, however these attacks are easy to both perfect shield and maneuver around.

Gannons edgegaurding is a matter of concern for mario. however mario does have some potential to mix up his trajectory and with things like cape shakkiing up my momentum i dont find this to be anything matchup defining since it is a lot easier for mario to get gannon offstage, where mario has great edgegaurd potential of his own. mario has alot of combos on gannon, better mobility, and forces the approach in this matchup. i dont see how we loose it

is -1. we can combo sheik and kill her earlier then she kills us. but better range and quicker moves along with needles maknig the ground approach game a nightmare give shiek an undeyable advantage, however mario actually has a pretty solid shot at sheik do to a few moves challenging fair like upair and bair or even upsmash on a read.

v is weird but mario has the advantage, and i have never encountered one at an offline function. so all i say is just from FG.

That Being said i still think mario wins the matchup handily. Zeldas side and down special are hardly usefull at all verse mario and mario hits quiker on everything, and gets way more reward for the hit. zeldas most anoying assets are the Dtilt and Ftilt. Dtilt is quick and probably her most usefull move, she will use in neutral alot to try and pop you up for a nair or other aerial follow up. neutral b for zelda can help get out of combos but in practice it works very similar to counters where if you read you can punish wayyyy harder. ive never felt to threatend by zelda, as long as you are mobile and unpredictable her strong moves will be incredibly difficult to land on you while you can walk around swing that dome around waiting to land the upshamsh and being annoyingly hard to punish.​

 

[miniada]

is +1 on both i would say. we just have all the tools to shut down their projectile game while having better CQC. you not only can reflect the projectiles and fireball clashes with all but bombs, bombs which are still capable ant take a long time to come out.

yes link can combo off grabs and has some very scary range but it is manageable to get through both. for the grabs proper DI up and away from link results i him rarely getting more then 20-25% while mario can much more easily get a grab and take it much higher percents. there are big threats though from the link, the bombs are a huge threat, i like to apply a lot of pressure to make it hard to keep consistent bombs coming out, and if they are out be careful. Where normals are concerned, i find the hyrule heros jab and uptilt to be the workhorses here. The jab is annoying to get around, but ours is faster which helps if we get close. I doe mostly from Upsmashes in this match-up because i jump to ****ing so much so be careful about empty short hops cause that upshamsh hitbox is massive. Link has really good edgaurding on mario. wathout for the Dair and Nair the most. Rembember marios upB can not directly challenge links Dair!! however for mario frop down nair or stage spikes really do work against link alot. Link is also complete combo fodder which is great for us. so shut down the projectile game with cape and fireball and then get in and out combo him!


Toon links better mobility helps him keep mario out, and he gets more off of bomb setups then link does. this matchup is a little faster because generally you chase the link around that throws bombs, however he needs to do that alot just to stay even in damage with us. however it is really nice though that he has a lot less range while having still worse frame data then mario so we can still combo him and kill him much easier then link with an upsmash. try to bait out the Dair in this matchup, watch our for the Zair and lingering upair.

overall I never feel like i lost due to characters in this matchup, we deal with the projectiles exceptionally well and combo much better.

is +1 I Heavily disagree with A2ZOMG , in no world does Gannon Beat mario. look we have a projectile, gannon does not. Mario literally never needs to come to gannon. and gannons midrange options are all supper punishable. choke, wizkick and DA are all really spotdodgeable and punishable for massive damage on gannon. what is annoying here is the range and how hard a few of the normals are to punish like the spartan FTilt. Dont be silly and just rush in right after you get pushed back, however these attacks are easy to both perfect shield and maneuver around.

Gannons edgegaurding is a matter of concern for mario. however mario does have some potential to mix up his trajectory and with things like cape shakkiing up my momentum i dont find this to be anything matchup defining since it is a lot easier for mario to get gannon offstage, where mario has great edgegaurd potential of his own. mario has alot of combos on gannon, better mobility, and forces the approach in this matchup. i dont see how we loose it

is -1. we can combo sheik and kill her earlier then she kills us. but better range and quicker moves along with needles maknig the ground approach game a nightmare give shiek an undeyable advantage, however mario actually has a pretty solid shot at sheik do to a few moves challenging fair like upair and bair or even upsmash on a read.

v is weird but mario has the advantage, and i have never encountered one at an offline function. so all i say is just from FG.

That Being said i still think mario wins the matchup handily. Zeldas side and down special are hardly usefull at all verse mario and mario hits quiker on everything, and gets way more reward for the hit. zeldas most anoying assets are the Dtilt and Ftilt. Dtilt is quick and probably her most usefull move, she will use in neutral alot to try and pop you up for a nair or other aerial follow up. neutral b for zelda can help get out of combos but in practice it works very similar to counters where if you read you can punish wayyyy harder. ive never felt to threatend by zelda, as long as you are mobile and unpredictable her strong moves will be incredibly difficult to land on you while you can walk around swing that dome around waiting to land the upshamsh and being annoyingly hard to punish.​

OMG you literally changed my mind on most of these MU's sheik I still feel is -2 overall and I still feel tink is even(if not between 0 and +1)but link and Ganondorf i know have different felling on

 

[Macedonian]

why do you think tink is even with mario and what makes shiek so problematic? your initial post is very sparse.

 

[miniada]

why do you think tink is even with mario and what makes shiek so problematic? your initial post is very sparse.

Sheik it might just be my personal hatred of playing against this matchup however her mobility abalities to wall out Mario with FAIR and edgeguard abalities makes this hard for mario tink yeah IDK much about this MU so since you seem to have a good grasp on this MU I'll say it's slightly marios favor maybe there are ways to deal with sheik I'm not to sure of

 

[_Magus_]

Firstly, the spelling and grammar in here are absolutely atrocious

Secondly, the Ganons had a long discussion on the Mario MU. Mains of both characters were involved, and a consensus was reached. You can read up on that discussion here: http://smashboards.com/threads/the-dark-arts-of-ganon-match-up-discussion-current-zelda.373934/

Honestly, I see a lot of theorycrafting here and not much actual MU experience. If you guys would like to fight some real Ganon mains, come to our matchmaking thread here: http://smashboards.com/threads/the-...ing-video-thread.368251/page-34#post-20173187

Also, I'd like to point out that A2ZOMG has mained BOTH Mario and Ganondorf (and has been an active member of both communities) since before most of you were on Smashboards. He has a lot of experience with both characters throughout multiple games, and that's something to take into consideration. It doesn't make him infallible, but it does mean you have to give his insight some respect.

 

[Macedonian]

for shiek i will say if you get gimped you probably made a mistake, you need to hold on to your double jump for dear life. i dont feel like the offstage game is overly devastating to mario. with varied timing none of her airials will send mario to far to not recover and shiek does not want to trade with the upB usually.

the fair is annoying but she cant just keep doing it. marios DA gets marios body pretty low and can allow you to get under the fair and hit the landing. i like Dtilt for this too. back air is harder but if you have range to keep the fairs out if you wall with Bair. just watch sheik from getting abouve you or below you. You can even trade with any of air moves except dair and mario wins that trade (because mario does more damage and lives longer so trade away).

i mean no disrespect to anybody. im just trying to talk about a matchup and i disagree with pretty much all he said about the MU, claiming fireballs are not a major issue, gannon covers marios options in neutral, and ganon wins because edgeplay.. i actually disagree with him on alot of things when it comes to mario, just means we don't see eye to eye, but hey, im open to being wrong and learning so i would love to be shown new info or how my smash knowledge is nothing.

 

[miniada]

for shiek i will say if you get gimped you probably made a mistake, you need to hold on to your double jump for dear life. i dont feel like the offstage game is overly devastating to mario. with varied timing none of her airials will send mario to far to not recover and shiek does not want to trade with the upB usually.

the fair is annoying but she cant just keep doing it. marios DA gets marios body pretty low and can allow you to get under the fair and hit the landing. i like Dtilt for this too. back air is harder but if you have range to keep the fairs out if you wall with Bair. just watch sheik from getting abouve you or below you. You can even trade with any of air moves except dair and mario wins that trade (because mario does more damage and lives longer so trade away).

i mean no disrespect to anybody. im just trying to talk about a matchup and i disagree with pretty much all he said about the MU, claiming fireballs are not a major issue, gannon covers marios options in neutral, and ganon wins because edgeplay.. i actually disagree with him on alot of things when it comes to mario, just means we don't see eye to eye, but hey, im open to being wrong and learning so i would love to be shown new info or how my smash knowledge is nothing.

Thanks for the sheik advice

 

[A2ZOMG]

is +1 I Heavily disagree with A2ZOMG , in no world does Gannon Beat mario. look we have a projectile, gannon does not. Mario literally never needs to come to gannon. and gannons midrange options are all supper punishable. choke, wizkick and DA are all really spotdodgeable and punishable for massive damage on gannon. what is annoying here is the range and how hard a few of the normals are to punish like the spartan FTilt. Dont be silly and just rush in right after you get pushed back, however these attacks are easy to both perfect shield and maneuver around.

Gannons edgegaurding is a matter of concern for mario. however mario does have some potential to mix up his trajectory and with things like cape shakkiing up my momentum i dont find this to be anything matchup defining since it is a lot easier for mario to get gannon offstage, where mario has great edgegaurd potential of his own. mario has alot of combos on gannon, better mobility, and forces the approach in this matchup. i dont see how we loose it

The problem is default fireballs are not safe except when spaced in very specific ways. Mario usually sacrifices more stage control than he gains going for fireballs, as he basically needs to be retreating in most situations for the fireball to be safe.That's why Ganon wins the matchup. He outpressures Mario in midrange and forces him to take an unfavorable risk to actually play neutral against a Ganon that knows how fireballs work.

Mario's juggle game on Ganon is strong, but so is Ganon's juggle game on Mario, and Ganon by far has a much easier time ending the stock both directly and offstage, while Mario's edgeguarding is actually pretty crappy vs Ganon's recovery unless Ganon DIs terribly. Mario's tools aren't ideal for beating Dark Dive head on as he has no good low hitting hitboxes, and should Ganon have enough space to conserve his double jump, Mario often risks a lot trying to edgeguard Ganon past his U-air. In many situations, it's more trouble than it's worth for Mario to try edgeguarding Ganon.

 

[Zeth444]

Ganon vs Mario on default settings is 55/45 Ganon imo.

The main thing Mario has on Ganon is a good juggle game. At low percents, Ganon is fairly easily comboed to mid percents, and pressured with D-air if he makes a mistake. Due to Mario's mobility, Ganon has to play this matchup very reactively, given it's not wise for him to whiff moves carelessly.

Finally, the other big reason Ganon comes out ahead this matchup is superior edgeguards. Ganon has very very good options for consistently edgeguarding Mario's fairly linear recovery. For one, his aerials are huge and very good at trapping airdodges, which can heavily discourage attempts to recover high. For two, Ganon has several aerials that can very reliably contest Mario's Up-B directly. N-air typically will trade with Mario's Up-B outside of the very beginning of the move, and on a trade this usually gimps Mario. F-air on a good read also trades with Mario's Up-B and pretty much instakills whoever it hits offstage. tipman U-air while a bit conditional actually cleanly beats Mario's Up-B and will gimp him in that situation easily too. Mario in contrast is significantly more limited at edgeguarding Ganon unless Ganon DIs rather poorly. FLUDD can be airdodged on reaction and won't reach low enough below the stage to stop Ganon from simply Up-Bing to the ledge, and Mario often has considerable trouble Caping Ganon's Up-B especially if Ganon has room to recover with it in reverse. His best option usually to edgeguard Ganon is to try to go semi-deep with N-air, but a Ganon that saves his midair jump properly can actually kill Mario for attempting this in some situations with double jump U-air, so generally speaking it's more trouble than it's worth for Mario to attempt edgeguarding Ganon except in situations where anyone would get a free edgeguard against bad DI.

That's just reasons why Ganon has the advantage. As for how the matchup plays in general, Mario typically wants to get in with either a SH-airdodge, a dashgrab, or an inward roll. Ganon can often cover all of these options with a properly spaced N-air, which lingers and has a very wide hitbox. That being said, an inward roll sometimes is the easiest way for Mario to fish for a grab, but Mario should be wary of Ganon reading this with pivot F-tilt, U-smash, or Flame Choke, all of which are highly devastating punishes.

When Mario does get in, ideally he should be getting Ganon from around 9% -> 50% pretty reliably, and D-throw -> U-air x2 combos for a fair bit of time after that initial string. D-airs are good for covering options when juggling too, not to mention U-smash. However Mario DOES have to play respectfully against aerial Wizkick. Aerial Wizkick can be used to whiff punish U-tilt strings at specific percent ranges, and it's very dangerous to try U-smashing Ganon out of aerial Wizkick, as this will often trade hits, and assuming you comboed Ganon to mid to high percents, this can often kill Mario as early as 80%. So while Mario's juggle game is strong on Ganon, Ganon's landing isn't exactly free and has to be respected.

55:45

Sorry, but I think Wizkick is to unsafe to metter. If u are in low percents and close to The ground and You do it, or in a stage with platforms, an airdodge from Mario can put Ganon on a vulnerable spot, Mario can FF Soft Nair (dont recommend), Dair, U-air close to The ground or, on specific sutuations, Fair. (Mario can also FF and re-grab/jab sometimes)

Even if Wizkick was a huge problem, The Mario can replace The second U-air of The juggle You mentioned for Up-b or, as it is often possible, a Bair.

On Edgeguard, I dont see Ganon been that hard to beat, of course he has his tricks, but his Up-b can be challenged by Mario's Bair, leading into a stage spike, which will be untechable on many situations. Also, Ganons jump Isnt that good, making só that he will be force to use it unless he wants to make himself vulnerable to aerials like Fair (situational), Bair and Nair. His only way to do a safe Up-b is to do it close to/under The stage, where he can, as I said above, be stage spiked by Bair.

By The other hand, Mario doesnt have that hard of a time coming back. Altought Ganons Nair is good, It has some lag, What makes só that You need to have an Idea of when Mario is going to use up-b, which can be delayed with cape and has a versatile angulation. (Fair is pretty laggy and for reverse Uair to land You would need to drop a bit more and would get expõsed to a stage spike If You miss space/time and Mario's Up-b wins The trade.)

You also said on your post that Mario would punish Ganon with Dairs. I agree with it, but there are better/more damaging out-off-shield options to punish Ganon: Down Smash, Up Smash , jab, grab, D-tilt, Up-tilt. (Down Smash out-off-shield The most viáble of them, coming out pretty fast, but The others are Also good against Ganons laggy moves.). If it is not out-off-shield Mario can dash grab/attack (best options), turn around Bair or jump-cancel turn around Up Smash (on laggier models like a misspaced/missread side/down-B)

Ganons ability to kill early, good edgeguard and superior range is enought to make him a threat, but, in my opinion, Isnt enought to Give him advantage on The match-up when compared with Mario's mobility, Amazing offstage and combo game, Thats way I think it comes out almost even with some advantage to Mario.

 

[Macedonian]

The problem is default fireballs are not safe except when spaced in very specific ways. Mario usually sacrifices more stage control than he gains going for fireballs, as he basically needs to be retreating in most situations for the fireball to be safe.That's why Ganon wins the matchup. He outpressures Mario in midrange and forces him to take an unfavorable risk to actually play neutral against a Ganon that knows how fireballs work.

Mario's juggle game on Ganon is strong, but so is Ganon's juggle game on Mario, and Ganon by far has a much easier time ending the stock both directly and offstage, while Mario's edgeguarding is actually pretty crappy vs Ganon's recovery unless Ganon DIs terribly. Mario's tools aren't ideal for beating Dark Dive head on as he has no good low hitting hitboxes, and should Ganon have enough space to conserve his double jump, Mario often risks a lot trying to edgeguard Ganon past his U-air. In many situations, it's more trouble than it's worth for Mario to try edgeguarding Ganon.

but mario does not just have to retreat with mario and just keep running away from gannon. the attempts that gannon have to actually gain ground on mario are all punishable and heavily so.

also yea ganon is better at edgegaurding, but it also dose not take much for him to loose the stock offstage. even a little flood action comes into play if you jump after them and put them in awkward positions to recover. its not great but is a part of the matchup that i do get kills with. even dark dive is capable. Still gannons offstage game is more scary, and can just generally end stocks earlier i agree. but with mario's mobility allows him to get in on a heavily punishable character and rack up damage. and up smash is godlike, it can beat Dair and wizkick

 

[A2ZOMG]

Let's get something straight. Mario's edgeguarding is simply terrible.

That's a big reason he doesn't win the matchup. He simply doesn't have a lot of options to reliably pressure people offstage. And one of Ganon's biggest weaknesses thus is mostly irrelevant in this matchup.

FLUDD doesn't gimp anyone except recoveries that would get gimped by anything for DIing badly. Ganon never has to worry about FLUDD offstage when it can simply be airdodged on reaction in all the situations where it remotely matters.

Mario's Cape and B-air both fail at reaching options below Mario. It's also not completely trivial for Mario to stage spike a recovery with his B-air when his B-air does not have much range, meaning in most situations, when he's actually able to B-air stage spike, it's techable except on Duck Hunt. Both of these options notably also lose to Ganon's U-air and cannot cover Dark Dive on reaction if Ganon has saved his double jump.

So the difference between Ganon edgeguarding Mario than the other way around is much, much, larger than either of you are trying to let on. It's actually an extremely relevant advantage in Ganon's favor, and a very trivial disadvantage on Ganon's end.

Ganon is a punishable character, but more importantly Mario can't just do anything for free in neutral against Ganon either, and for all the times Ganon might get punished, Ganon's reward more than makes up for it Mario has no really easy answer to Ganon safely spacing N-airs and D-tilts reactively, and the reward Ganon gets from these moves is simply massive when Mario has no easy way out of Ganon's devastating juggles, which also put him offstage quickly.

Furthermore, while Mario's U-smash is certainly a good move, it's not a win button for Mario like it is against some other heavy characters. Ganon actually has landing options. His N-air, D-air, and aerial Wizkick are all highly threatening aerials, and aerial wizkick especially can kill Mario as early as 80% while trading with U-smash.

For all the stuff Mario can do to Ganon, Ganon also has stuff he can do to Mario that is simply more rewarding, and Mario can't exactly keep him out trivially. Mario ALSO has to take risks in neutral in this matchup, and to suggest running away and fireball camping isn't a risk against Ganon is a faulty assumption against Ganon's superior midrange options which you have to proactively, not reactively avoid, something which can be punished.

 

[Xeze]

Mario loses to Ganon, Sheik and Link but wins against Zelda and Toon Link.

Link and Ganon both outrange Mario and kill/edgeguard better. Don't underestimate Mario's edgeguards on them though. Link has tether to help out with mixing up, but Ganon's recovery is pretty linear. Mario combos both pretty hard at mid-low percents but has trouble killing them, specially factoring in rage that builds up on Link/Ganon. I'd say 45:55 and 40:60 . The Link MU can be pushed to 45:55 if Mario players optimize the edgeguard/trump game.

Toon Link is like Link but worse. At least against Mario. Less range and less kill power, plus being lighter. Mario wins this 55:45

Zelda is a weird MU and there aren't many tournament Zeldas to begin with. But overall Mario can combo her well and her moves are laggy but powerful. Mario's better frame data and mobility gives him an edge in this matchup. Also if Zelda even dares to use Din's Fire on stage, just FLUDD her off the stage for an easy kill since she will enter the helpless state. 55:45 in my opinion.


Also miniada please improve your writing. Dots and commas exist for a reason. I can hardly keep up with what you are trying to say in some sentences. And since you are monitoring this MU thread, it's very important.

 

[Macedonian]

A2ZOMG i see where you are coming from, but i still disagree.

dtilt and Nair are both punishable, mario jugles ganon just as hard as ganon juggles mario, getting in on gannon is difficult but its fair. and all options ganon has to get in are heavilly punishable.

and you and me have very different definitions of terrible. mario has a lot of options with cape, flood, fireball sniping, fair, bair, dair and even fall off nair, pretty much all of these options are quicker than gannons nair. i know these are not gurantees, but he has a lot of threats to look out for and being proactive trying to harass the recovey is a factor in the matchup. mario cant capitalize as much as other charachters,but he still has good mobility and alot of lethal options.

i dont want to start a never ending debate really, and i do understand you have more experience then me so i do respect your opinion, i just disagree with many things you post that i have seen on the mario boards, and i finally feel that since ive started to go to events i do feel like throwing in my 2 cents.

 

[_Magus_]

A2ZOMG i see where you are coming from, but i still disagree.

dtilt and Nair are both punishable, mario jugles ganon just as hard as ganon juggles mario, getting in on gannon is difficult but its fair. and all options ganon has to get in are heavilly punishable.

and you and me have very different definitions of terrible. mario has a lot of options with cape, flood, fireball sniping, fair, bair, dair and even fall off nair, pretty much all of these options are quicker than gannons nair. i know these are not gurantees, but he has a lot of threats to look out for and being proactive trying to harass the recovey is a factor in the matchup. mario cant capitalize as much as other charachters,but he still has good mobility and alot of lethal options.

i dont want to start a never ending debate really, and i do understand you have more experience then me so i do respect your opinion, i just disagree with many things you post that i have seen on the mario boards, and i finally feel that since ive started to go to events i do feel like throwing in my 2 cents.

One thing you seem to overlook is the fact that every single one of Ganon's aerials is a strong edge guarding tool, not just nair. Weak and Strong Uair, Bair (for ledge trumps/second ledge snap punish), Fair (For low recoveries/hard reads), and Dair, the strongest meteor smash in the game, are all incredible edge guarding options and are great mixups. With so many options, it's hard to predict what a good Ganon will do to you offstage.

In addition, he can just Up Tilt from onstage to create pressure. Ganon is also very effective at punishing getups, (as A2ZOMG has shown me ) meaning that if you make the wrong move getting up, he can keep throwing you offstage, reseting the situation, and coming at you with a new edge guard until he gets the kill. Or he can just chain choke you from your getup until he tech chases you into a pivot f smash, ending your stock right there.

 

[miniada]

and will be re discussed since we have no defenitive ratio.
discuss #ridley4smash

 

[Xeze]

Mario destroys regular Samus. Not only can he combo her to hell and back with no real answers, but Samus is also afraid to use her main tool (Charge Shot) because of cape. The only place where Samus has an edge over Mario is offstage, where she can gimp him with fair or bair.

Mario wins this one. 6-4 probably.

ZSS is a tricky one. I'd leave that to someone that has more experience on fighting good ZSS players.

 

[miniada]

60:40 mario destroys samus netural game, because of his cape. he can combo her hard, and fludd can be used to edgeguard. her charge shot becomes very risky due to the cape.
idk about zss but most say that it is even

 

[Kulty]

I think the ZSS MU is 45-55. The main thing that Zero Suit Samus has the upper hand is better punish game, better recovery, better range and better mobility, which does help her a lot against Mario. The only thing that holds ZSS from destroying Mario is that Mario can combo the hell out of her, because she's very vulnerable to Mario's up-tilt juggles and one of the two characters who can get hit by the up-throw to up-smash combo at 0% to 5% (the other being Captain Falcon). Also, Mario does have an easier time grabbing ZSS and start racking up damage a lot, because ZSS is really laggy and very easy to avoid. However, ZSS gets the most reward out of grabs, and Mario has to be careful for her Up-B, since it does kill quite early. Once Mario gets off-stage, it`s very easy for ZSS to gimp Mario due to his predictable recovery while ZSS does have some options to mixup.

That's why I don't think this matchup is as bad as people think. 45-55 for ZSS (slight disadvantage for Mario, but not by much).

 

[DungeonMaster]

Mario is amongst the worst matchups for Samus in my opinion.
The matchup exposes some of the basic design flaws of Samus that make literally make no sense and the good Samus player has to constantly fight against these design elements.
Naively one might expect the short little limbed Mario to be concerned about the reach of Samus' large legs but it doesn't work out that way because Samus constantly exposes hurtboxes before, after, during her moves.
Because of this hurtbox extension, and that Mario has none himself during his moves, with large lingering hitboxes and sometimes subtle disjoints protecting him, all Mario has to do is hit a button to stuff attacks that would in principle be quite threatening.
Even Samus' attacks that "look" like they are disjoints with the explosions out of the arm-cannons from up-smash are not in reality disjoints.
This can be seen in multiple places in the community design problems video, stuff like mario d-air beating out up-smash, b-air beating out f-tilt: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCYCj3et36U#t=161
A Samus player that isn't aware of this property will often, almost invariably, get wrecked. Once you do know this, the matchup does get considerably better but it is still a bad fight because the level of involvement necessary to just hit buttons vs. high precision defence/attack is just not in Samus' favour.
In the combo game, because Samus is floaty Mario cannot get much actually, 35% in the best of cases. Most everything he does can be airdodged and jumped out of. The opposite isn't true, a good Samus can combo Mario quite well. For some reason they gave him a fairly advantageous hitstun hurtbox, so it takes a fair amount of skill to keep him going in the standard up-air combos but it's definitely possible. He doesn't tech chase as easily as say Fox, a very similar character, and that actually hurts Samus quite a bit in the advanced game for landing the CS kill.

 

[Xygonn]

Mario is amongst the worst matchups for Samus in my opinion.
The matchup exposes some of the basic design flaws of Samus that make literally make no sense and the good Samus player has to constantly fight against these design elements.
Naively one might expect the short little limbed Mario to be concerned about the reach of Samus' large legs but it doesn't work out that way because Samus constantly exposes hurtboxes before, after, during her moves.
Because of this hurtbox extension, and that Mario has none himself during his moves, with large lingering hitboxes and sometimes subtle disjoints protecting him, all Mario has to do is hit a button to stuff attacks that would in principle be quite threatening.
Even Samus' attacks that "look" like they are disjoints with the explosions out of the arm-cannons from up-smash are not in reality disjoints.
This can be seen in multiple places in the community design problems video, stuff like mario d-air beating out up-smash, b-air beating out f-tilt: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nCYCj3et36U#t=161
A Samus player that isn't aware of this property will often, almost invariably, get wrecked. Once you do know this, the matchup does get considerably better but it is still a bad fight because the level of involvement necessary to just hit buttons vs. high precision defence/attack is just not in Samus' favour.
In the combo game, because Samus is floaty Mario cannot get much actually, 35% in the best of cases. Most everything he does can be airdodged and jumped out of. The opposite isn't true, a good Samus can combo Mario quite well. For some reason they gave him a fairly advantageous hitstun hurtbox, so it takes a fair amount of skill to keep him going in the standard up-air combos but it's definitely possible. He doesn't tech chase as easily as say Fox, a very similar character, and that actually hurts Samus quite a bit in the advanced game for landing the CS kill.

The consensus on Mario was, Mario 65:35 Samus, among the Samus mains. Mario is pretty tough. I'm not the best Samus main. When it comes to any of these difficult matchups (fox, mario, a few others), I feel like I can't even come close against a skilled player. What's worse for Mario is that both aggressive and defensive strategies work for mario. If he runs away and keeps distance, he can win. If he goes in hard he can win. No mario is dumb enough to stay mid distance with us, and he is fast enough there is little we can do to keep him there. Mario can be somewhat gimpable, but good marios can change up their recovery alright especially if wall jumps are available. His dash attack puts his whole body annoyingly low to the ground and the invuln on upsmash is frustrating for trying to land.

 

[Ha Sarcasm]

And matchup i would say is 40:60 in marios favor.

I use to main mario before kirby.
I have so much trouble against good mario players with kirby . Now i am looking for a good counter for mario but thats for another day!

Lets look at mario first.


1. Mario is so much more mobile than kirby both air and ground.

2. Mario can combo break Kirby's bnb combos with NAIR

3.Mario completely destroys kirbys UP B recovery with FLUDD

4. Mario can kill kirby pretty easily because of his weight.

5.Mario has a better projectile

Thats all i can think of now.

Now kirby

1. Kirby can combo/juggle mario because of marios weight with new fthrow and dair.


2. Kirby may not have a good projectile but he has his command grab and can copy marios fireballs. As we know kirby can use them much better.

3.Kirby can edgeguard mario better because of his jumps and can spike him with dair

4.Kirbycide

 

[miniada]

And matchup i would say is 40:60 in marios favor.

I use to main mario before kirby.
I have so much trouble against good mario players with kirby . Now i am looking for a good counter for mario but thats for another day!

Lets look at mario first.


1. Mario is so much more mobile than kirby both air and ground.

2. Mario can combo break Kirby's bnb combos with NAIR

3.Mario completely destroys kirbys UP B recovery with FLUDD

4. Mario can kill kirby pretty easily because of his weight.

5.Mario has a better projectile

Thats all i can think of now.

Now kirby

1. Kirby can combo/juggle mario because of marios weight with new fthrow and dair.


2. Kirby may not have a good projectile but he has his command grab and can copy marios fireballs. As we know kirby can use them much better.

3.Kirby can edgeguard mario better because of his jumps and can spike him with dair

4.Kirbycide

We are discussing samus wrong thread

 

[Afro Smash]

In a nutshell

But seriously I'll echo other Samus mains and give this a 35:65, Mario's airspeed and frame data means he can chase us in the air with ease, or trap landings with invincible Up Smash. Cape and Fireballs means he dominates us in the neutral and makes us wary of using the CS, and we can't shield grab p much any of his aerials, nor can we up b oos them should they be spaced properly with that airspeed. We still have our combos, our CS and our offstage game so it's not impossible, but it's a struggle all the way

 

[HeroMystic]

So for some reason I'm still a mod.

I'll just make this the main MU thread.

 

[miniada]

So for some reason I'm still a mod.

I'll just make this the main MU thread.

Lol I actuelly hesitated making this because I didn't know how you would feel about it well my question is answered.

 

[HeroMystic]

The old MU thread is one of the few things I've done out of necessity as a mod rather than personal interest, so it's nice someone actually stepped up to take over.

The constant patches is a big reason why I never bothered with it. In fact, 1.11 invalidated just about every MU thread in the Smash 4 section, so the current format we're using is actually very outdated and doesn't work with the situation.

This isn't to deter you from taking the reigns, more like a vent/rant on my part to an observation that is overlooked by the majority of the smashboards community.

 

[miniada]

The old MU thread is one of the few things I've done out of necessity as a mod rather than personal interest, so it's nice someone actually stepped up to take over.

The constant patches is a big reason why I never bothered with it. In fact, 1.11 invalidated just about every MU thread in the Smash 4 section, so the current format we're using is actually very outdated and doesn't work with the situation.

This isn't to deter you from taking the reigns, more like a vent/rant on my part to an observation that is overlooked by the majority of the smashboards community.

I understand however I would like to ask about something. I want to edit the opening post and add a spoiler. However I don't know how to put content in it can you explain to me how?.

 

[HeroMystic]

I understand however I would like to ask about something. I want to edit the opening post and add a spoiler. However I don't know how to put content in it can you explain to me how?.

Spoiler: This is a spoiler tag

This is text within the spoiler.

[spoiler="This is a spoiler tag"]
This is text within the spoiler.
[/spoiler]

 

[Xeze]

I suggest we take a break on discussing MUs for now, as the game became a lot different. When the time is right, we restart. What do you guys think?

 

[miniada]

I suggest we take a break on discussing MUs for now, as the game became a lot different. When the time is right, we restart. What do you guys think?

I'LL add a voting poll to see if we should or should not have hiatus.

 

[HeroMystic]

My only suggestion is to change the title of the thread since all caps is rather... unpleasing to the eye.

 

[NotEvenAmatueR]

I feel like we should keep discussing matchups, but we should definitely re discuss Luigi now.

 

[Xeze]

I feel like we should keep discussing matchups, but we should definitely re discuss Luigi now.

well we could start from the beginning, since MUs can be quite different now. So, Luigi and Doc.

 

[NotEvenAmatueR]

well we could start from the beginning, since MUs can be quite different now. So, Luigi and Doc.

Not really. The change isn't as big as you think. The only one we need to really redo is Luigi because he got nerfed.