Data Bowser's Moveset Data & Discussion

[Jerodak]

@ J Jerodak If you tell me that there was no change in frame data for Uthrow, then I'll believe you.

My thoughts exactly more or less. It'd be good to see some frame data, or at least a side by side comparison. You could be right, I just want to be sure.

 

[MrEh]

I'm still updating so yeah. I'll check myself.

 

[Jerodak]

Sounds good, speaking of which are you still working on frame data?

 

[MrEh]

I am. Haven't looked over the footage in ages though, since I've been busy with non-smash related stuff. (Card games. -_-)


From the looks of things, it feels like Uthrow recovery has been changed slightly. But then again, I barely used Uthrow in the first place, so I'm not totally sure. I do remember Bowser being able to act much quicker out of Uthrow in Smash 4, but I don't recall it being this fast.

I did some tests outside of training mode, and yes, Uthrow does combo into Fair at very low percents. I haven't tested every character, but it seems to be possible even if your opponent DIs away from you. I know some people mentioned this MIGHT have been possible pre-patch, which makes me unsure whether or not Uthrow was actually changed.

Timing for the Fair isn't difficult. It's just kind of iffy. Full hop slightly delayed Fair.

And like previously mentioned, Nair and Uair can work against certain characters if they don't DI it. I personally find it impossible for me to react to the DI, so I always just Fair because it always works.


In the grand scheme of things, regardless if Uthrow was changed this patch or we've always been able to do this, it doesn't help too much. Still, having a guaranteed combo is always nice, even if it only works from like 0-20%.

 

[S_B]

MASSIVE change to flying slam: Bowser now has DECIDEDLY more control over the movement of it.

I tested it against an opponent at 0% while Bowser was at 45% and he STILL could move the slam a little in his direction while the other controller was pressed the complete opposite direction! :D

 

[Corgian]

MASSIVE change to flying slam: Bowser now has DECIDEDLY more control over the movement of it.

I tested it against an opponent at 0% while Bowser was at 45% and he STILL could move the slam a little in his direction while the other controller was pressed the complete opposite direction! :D

@ Zapp Branniglenn can you test to confirm since you've been studying his klaw so closely lately?

 

[S_B]

If someone wants to add me and PM me your skype, we can better test this.

I'm testing this awkwardly holding two controllers after all...

 

[MrEh]

Tested.

Control over Klaw evens out when Bowser is 24% above his opponent. Meaning Bowser now has more control than his opponent even when he's slightly BEHIND.

GOD BLESS SAKURAI. OUR LORD AND SAVIOR.


EDIT: Dash Slam feels unchanged though, meaning that Bowser still has absolutely garbage control in this case.

 

[dav3yb]

So is bowsers side b suicide consistent to the point we can do away with his suicide clause?

 

[Jerodak]

Tested.

Control over Klaw evens out when Bowser is 24% above his opponent. Meaning Bowser now has more control than his opponent even when he's slightly BEHIND.

GOD BLESS SAKURAI. OUR LORD AND SAVIOR.

I also did some tests as well, I can triple confirm that this appears to be the case, also it seems that the penalty to the opponent for being caught off guard is a sufficient loss in control. Which was already confirmed in Zapp's post but I just wanted to confirm that it appears to be unchanged.

 

[NateLinhart]

So what have people discovered so far on his possible changes?

 

[MagiusNecros]

So is bowsers side b suicide consistent to the point we can do away with his suicide clause?

Nope. That said dash slash into fortress makes it hard to go back to the klaw.

 

[Godzillionaire]

Awwwwww sweeeet. So far the only things changed are up throw and Klaw right? I heard his knockback was increased but I have not tested or seen proof yet

 

[Jerodak]

I'm not so sure on knockback being increased, but that's fine since he doesn't need it anyway. Now I can finally realize my dream of uploading all kinds of goofy Bowser gameplay for all to see!

 

[Corgian]

I'm not so sure on knockback being increased, but that's fine since he doesn't need it anyway. Now I can finally realize my dream of uploading all kinds of goofy Bowser gameplay for all to see!

I've got some clips saved for a Bowser combo video I've been working, so I'm super excited as well.

 

[MrEh]

So is bowsers side b suicide consistent to the point we can do away with his suicide clause?

Honestly, the suicide clause is kind of a relic from the Brawl days. There's no real reason to have it now because port priority doesn't exist anymore and the results of suicide moves are pretty consistent. I still propose that everyone should just use the rule we use in Hawaii:

•The Amanda St. Clair Suicide Clause: If a Suicide Special Move forces a “Sudden Death”, the initiator of the Special Move is the winner. Respect the victory screen in all other cases.

Keeps everything clean.

Awwwwww sweeeet. So far the only things changed are up throw and Klaw right?

Both are still unconfirmed. Would have to compare side by side to make sure.

 

[S_B]

Keeps everything clean

Except having to remember which stages go to SD and which kill Bowser first, ugh.

But yeah, FFS at least the klaw isn't a gigantic goddamn liability like it was before this.

And hey, if you're a stock ahead on a character who can't recover...

 

[MrEh]

We're of firm belief that respecting the result screen is the right choice. The result screen is a fact.

The real question was what to do in an instance of a SD. We believe that the ASC Suicide Clause treats this situation fairly. Even more so now that it appears that the result of a Bowsercide seems to be more consistent, but we'll have to test that a little more.


Also, is it just me, or does Bowserciding with Klaw on FD and Smashville always force an SD now? O_o

 

[Cassius.]

For a guy that has been trying to use UThrow -> FAir pre-1.06 (with great reaction time to boot):

before 1.06, this wasn't really a combo. People just assumed that it was, on top of the fact that Bowser players that used the tactic were on the hush about it, but you could just airdodge or double jump away depending on your size. Now, neither of this is possible in this version.

Either the cooldown or whatever you call it on UThrow on Bowser's end is lessened, or the hitstun is increased. I know this because pre 1.06, doing a UThrow to NAir was impossible, and reading the DI at 0% on a UThrow that sent the opponent forward and going for a UAir afterward was impossible (and probably even stupid as well). Both of these have worked consistently for me today on most character sizes. I haven't tried super-small Kirby/Olimar types yet. I stopped at Diddy.

(I'm not sure what percent this stops working at, but it's a lot easier to read the DI and combo accordingly now at mid percents, like 50-60%.)

Basically UThrow to NAir is selling me on the fact that something about this damn throw has changed (in a good way!)

Does UThrow still have set knockback?

 

[MrEh]

Uthrow knockback is not set. It was set in Brawl, but it definitely scales in this game. I guess they looked at Bowser's Uthrow/Fthrow and realized that it was kind of silly how two of his throws didn't move your opponent anywhere. lol


Also, it really does seem that Klaw always forces a SD on FD/SV. What the crap?

 

[S_B]

We're of firm belief that respecting the result screen is the right choice. The result screen is a fact.

I know, but it still sucks.

Also, is it just me, or does Bowserciding with Klaw on FD and Smashville always force an SD now? O_o

Oh ****,, I think it did when I played earlier. Was it not always that way?

 

[Cassius.]

I'm studying for a test now, but I'm sure Jero or Zapp will run through the tests and help you out with that.

If we really do have greater control over Flying Slam now, I'm going to probably run with Chad's opinion now of just letting the screen dictate the result if it's not Sudden Death.

I still think Side B blows as a move now, but if Bowser is REALLY intended to die first, it is a good thing that they at least changed/gave him a great amount of control over the move. It's almost as if Sakurai was listening. Almost.

 

[S_B]

I'm studying for a test now, but I'm sure Jero or Zapp will run through the tests and help you out with that.

If we really do have greater control over Flying Slam now, I'm going to probably run with Chad's opinion now of just letting the screen dictate the result if it's not Sudden Death.

I still think Side B blows as a move now, but if Bowser is REALLY intended to die first, it is a good thing that they at least changed/gave him a great amount of control over the move. It's almost as if Sakurai was listening. Almost.

Yeah, the fact that Bowser was dying first on top of everything else wrong with the move was the icing on the poop cake.

I actually like better control because this also better allows us to steer the move onto platforms.

Also, did Palutena's jab trigger tough guy before? Yup it did.

 

[MrEh]

The clause isn't even designed to favor Bowser per se. We don't create arbitrary rules to help medicore characters. It's just a rule that helps you figure out what to do in SD situations, which I find to be extremely important.

As long as your region uses some form of the ASC clause, then Bowsercides will continue to be a thing. It just comes down to stage dynamics. You need to know what stage will force the SD. If you Bowsercide someone on a stage that Bowser loses on, it's your fault and you should be punished for it. If you Bowsercide someone on a stage that forces an SD, then you should be rewarded for picking that stage and setting up that situation.

Counterpicks son.

 

[Zigsta]

Also, it really does seem that Klaw always forces a SD on FD/SV. What the crap?

That's interesting to me, considering that Bowser died first on SV prior to the patch (but went to sudden death on omega SV).

YOU'RE SO GOOD AT WORKING OUT BUGS, SAKURAI.

 

[S_B]

The clause isn't even designed to favor Bowser per se. We don't create arbitrary rules to help medicore characters. It's just a rule that helps you figure out what to do in SD situations, which I find to be extremely important.

As long as your region uses some form of the ASC clause, then Bowsercides will continue to be a thing. It just comes down to stage dynamics. You need to know what stage will force the SD. If you Bowsercide someone on a stage that Bowser loses on, it's your fault and you should be punished for it. If you Bowsercide someone on a stage that forces an SD, then you should be rewarded for picking that stage and setting up that situation.

I think stages with platforms became THAT much more important for Bowser, because even at a % disadvantage, you can likely steer the opponent to the highest platform now to get that kill earlier.

I have to retrain myself to start klawing again, hah...

BTW, have we confirmed anything else for Bowser at this point?

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

What a rude awakening to find victims still released before death on the culprit stages. Looks like the design team really like the idea of Bowser forfeiting victory on his own move. I have read your concerns regarding Bowser's control over the move, and can confirm a very sizeable difference. Before, when moving in the direction that you are not facing for the grab, Bowser would lose about 20% of control when he and the victim were at the same percentage. Running this same test in 1.06, both characters are landing straight down. Pre patch, Bowser needed a 50% damage lead for that. I'm still testing individual scenarios, where I switch off who has the damage lead and by how much, but it seems pretty consistent that Bowser is exerting a lot more control. Dash Slam's control seems unchanged.

I will update my thread when I can. One possibility I cannot rule out is whether they changed the dynamics for deciding who has control. Whether it's still based on whether Bowser is trying to move forward and backward, or something else. Make sure the folks running this thread hear about this difference. They won't need to know how much of a difference in control Bowser has, just that there has been a change. Regarding proof, just link my thread and tell them about how the results for Flying Slam are no longer being replicated.

...This is not how I expected them to change flying slam, but I'm glad I ran these tests before. Now we know they threw us some sort of bone.

 

[S_B]

...This is not how I expected them to change flying slam, but I'm glad I ran these tests before. Now we know they threw us some sort of bone.

Agreed, and I wish they'd at least make it always SD.

But I don't mind this change because this actually gives Bowser some more options and that's always nice.

You can steer it onto platforms very easily now, and you can also more accurately drop it on the other opponent in doubles.

Plus, if you're somehow a stock ahead and the opponent lacks recovery, go nuts!

 

[dav3yb]

Honestly, the suicide clause is kind of a relic from the Brawl days. There's no real reason to have it now because port priority doesn't exist anymore and the results of suicide moves are pretty consistent. I still propose that everyone should just use the rule we use in Hawaii:

•The Amanda St. Clair Suicide Clause: If a Suicide Special Move forces a “Sudden Death”, the initiator of the Special Move is the winner. Respect the victory screen in all other cases.

Keeps everything clean.

Both are still unconfirmed. Would have to compare side by side to make sure.

Well I was mainly thinking of the stages that will sometimes double ko, instead of killing bowser fist like it should. I kind of figure that was partially the reason the clause still existed. If the game is fully consistent, and kills bowser first 100% of the time on all stages, then i would be all for doing away with the clause and use result screen.

 

[Xadrin]

I'm not really sure what people are on about with uthrow being buffed. It seems to have the exact same ending lag. As for the fair follow-up, it's always been a true combo at lower percents. Same for uair and nair (on some characters).

That is unless absolutely everyone I've played against immediately became braindead once I did the uthrow and didn't even bother trying to jump or air dodge out of it, and unless training mode was wrong about it being a combo.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

@ Xadrin It's just me and Cassius. We're just testing and comparing experiences. Even then, we're not over the moon about it or anything.

 

[S_B]

Also, the DEFINITION of irony is that I'm Bowserciding every other game in FG now, heh...

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I'm looking at Uthrow across unpatched and patched versions of the game. Bowser can act at the same point as far as I can tell. I just held shield to see how fast that comes up after Uthrow.

Maybe now we're just noticing how quickly Bowser is able to move out of this throw. I certainly am.

 

[Zigsta]

I'm not really sure what people are on about with uthrow being buffed. It seems to have the exact same ending lag. As for the fair follow-up, it's always been a true combo at lower percents. Same for uair and nair (on some characters).

That is unless absolutely everyone I've played against immediately became braindead once I did the uthrow and didn't even bother trying to jump or air dodge out of it, and unless training mode was wrong about it being a combo.

You can't count training mode combos as true combos. It counts repeated use of Yoshi's Egg Lay as a combo.

 

[S_B]

It's completely safe to use the klaw OFFSTAGE, then steer back onto the stage for the hit, which is good for a mixup (though likely won't work against decent opponents).

Can we confirm any of these for Bowser?

http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/c..._bros_4_v106_patch_notes_compilation/.compact

Also, is it just me, or does Bowserciding with Klaw on FD and Smashville always force an SD now? O_o

I guess they both always SDed?

 

[Cassius.]

Uh, Bowser died first when I attemtped to go for a Bowsercide while not facing the proper side on Smashville (ie Bowser facing to the left of the stage but going towards the right side of the lower blast zone)

edit: I'm testing this by mashing jump on the bowsercide victim's controller as I'm side B-ing to the offstage zone (intentionally Bowserciding). I've had sudden death happen, but I've also had Bowser die first facing both directions and on both sides of the stage. This move is still ****ed lmao

 

[dav3yb]

Uh, Bowser died first when I attemtped to go for a Bowsercide while not facing the proper side on Smashville (ie Bowser facing to the left of the stage but going towards the right side of the lower blast zone)

edit: I'm testing this by mashing jump on the bowsercide victim's controller as I'm side B-ing to the offstage zone (intentionally Bowserciding). I've had sudden death happen, but I've also had Bowser die first facing both directions and on both sides of the stage. This move is still ****ed lmao

Yep. I don't get why this is so stage dependent. One thing i did notice though, if you Side-B off the stage in sudden death, even if it kills you both, it seems to declare the other player the winner. So that would lead me to believe the move is intended to kill Bowser first all the time... i just wish it was consistent.

 

[B!squick]

At least they fixed important things like that neat thing Megaman could do with items, right guys?

 

[MagiusNecros]

Definitely seeing Flying Slam having more control. I know the lvl9 Sheik was fighting against me and I still moved 2 feet forward. I was at 117% while the Sheik was at 51%.

Since I have a unhealthy obsession with fire shot at low percentages fortress/ftilt/full jab combo links right into fire shot. Sheik tried to roll away and still got hit anyway.

I imagine a weak grounded dair would also be good to fire one off as well.

I find the move best used when the opponent thinks they are safe.

This was on 3ds btw.

Would I recommend fire shot? No.

But I like it enough to find an application that works. And 15% off a jab isn't anything to scoff at.

 

[Cassius.]

It's nothing to scoff at, sure...but considering almost all of Bowser's moves do over 10% damage for A LOT less risk attached to a move as bad as Fire Shot--again--it's not worth using lol