BBR Matchup Chart Opinions

[Sky Pirate]

As Denti mentioned in the Q&A thread, the BBR just released a new match-up chart.
Here's how they rated Olimar's matchups:


-2:
-1:
0:
1:
2:
3:
4:

-2: medium disadvantage
-1: small disadvantage
0: even
+1: small advantage
+2: medium advantage
+3: large advantage/hard counter
+4: (close to) unloseable

What do you guys think? Any of them stick out as odd or incorrect?

I'm honestly a little surprised at the placement of:

Falcon - I always thought we could shut out almost anything he has with pivot grab/Fsmash.

Link - See Falcon, but apply to pikmin toss and camping.

Pit - We go even, even with his lack of range? I never get to play Pits, but it still seems surprising.

P.T. - I thought it was closer to even since Squirtle was in his favor and the other two were in ours. P.T.s tend to favor Squirtle, no? If they're willing to take a single hit or can knock us away, they get to change to Charizard. IDK, it's late and I'm tired. I'll try to help my reasoning make sense later.

Shiek - Thought it was 0 or -1. Shiek's kind of hardish.

Sonic - I don't doubt that it might be that bad, but I'm definitely biased because Espy's so hard. <_<;

 

[Dnyce]

Falcon - I always thought we could shut out almost anything he has with pivot grab/Fsmash.

Link - See Falcon, but apply to pikmin toss and camping.

Pit - We go even, even with his lack of range? I never get to play Pits, but it still seems surprising.

P.T. - I thought it was closer to even since Squirtle was in his favor and the other two were in ours. P.T.s tend to favor Squirtle, no? If they're willing to take a single hit or can knock us away, they get to change to Charizard. IDK, it's late and I'm tired. I'll try to help my reasoning make sense later.

Shiek - Thought it was 0 or -1. Shiek's kind of hardish.

Sonic - I don't doubt that it might be that bad, but I'm definitely biased because Espy's so hard. <_<;

I'll post my full opinions later, second all-nighter in a row, lol.

Falcon - you're over complicating it... pivot grab is option. All you really have to do is fsmash

Link - Yup

Pit - I agree with it being even

P.T. - *shrug*

Shiek - *shrug*

Sonic - See: Link

 

[Tin Man]

I can see how sheik could be harder. I'm shocked Falco is that bad. I'd say just negative 1, like ICs is also one of Olimar's worst matchups so I'm not sure why Falco would be said to be notably worse. I can see sheik being even.

PT, Pit, Sonic I agree with.

I can see Mario and Yoshi. But i think I need to play a good Ness =/

I would have thought Lucario would be a 1.

DK also seems like he should be harder.

 

[Dabuz]

As Denti mentioned in the Q&A thread, the BBR just released a new match-up chart.
Here's how they rated Olimar's matchups:


-2:
-1:
0:
1:
2:
3:
4:

-2: medium disadvantage
-1: small disadvantage
0: even
+1: small advantage
+2: medium advantage
+3: large advantage/hard counter
+4: (close to) unloseable

What do you guys think? Any of them stick out as odd or incorrect?

I'm honestly a little surprised at the placement of:

Falcon - I always thought we could shut out almost anything he has with pivot grab/Fsmash.

Link - See Falcon, but apply to pikmin toss and camping.

Pit - We go even, even with his lack of range? I never get to play Pits, but it still seems surprising.

P.T. - I thought it was closer to even since Squirtle was in his favor and the other two were in ours. P.T.s tend to favor Squirtle, no? If they're willing to take a single hit or can knock us away, they get to change to Charizard. IDK, it's late and I'm tired. I'll try to help my reasoning make sense later.

Shiek - Thought it was 0 or -1. Shiek's kind of hardish.

Sonic - I don't doubt that it might be that bad, but I'm definitely biased because Espy's so hard. <_<;

falcon:while i agree, falcon is fast enough to punish a mistake with grab and then juggle olimar effectively,its is on the cusp of +2/3, but no olimars really understand falcon's options as much as falcons understand oli's options...i personally had little to say in this MU

link: I've fought kirinblaze a lot (who is probably best or second best link) and his nair+jab are better tools in this MU than you can imagine, hes downright hard to kill and outprioritizes olimar up close with very good mix-ups, +2 is fine

Pit: His arrows are annoying to stop, his aerials space nice and has a great offstage game against olimar, on stage olimar has a slight advantage in just about everything else, but pit realistically needs to knock olimar offstage even slightly to take the stock 50% of the time, 0. There aren't any high level pit vs. oli MUs so this was a hard ratio to determine

P.T.: We beat two of PT's characters and only lose to one, even if squirtle is the best character in this MU, its not a huge advantage for him and PTs can't rely solely on squirtle

shiek: olimar simply racks up damage too easily on shiek due to her fall speed and shiek's options of getting in are good but limited, if it wasn't for her high priority with aerials it might of been +2 oli's favor, i tourney level serious secondary shiek and have played the MU enough from both sides to be confident olimar barely wins

sonic: RB is the only top olimar to fight a good sonic in the past year and he doesn't know the MU, if olimar plays the MU correctly, sonic shouldn't win without being a much better player



@tinamn: Nope, DK is very very easy for olimar...its just i've taught will how to **** other olis too well :3

lucario...meh, hes hard to kill and the comeback king while olimar is quick to gimp and is pretty light, i just can't see nay important advantages olimar has that lucario doesn't match with his advantages

 

[Denti]

I think everything is accurate except Mario and Sonic. Mario doesn't deal damage as fast as we do and we aren't as fast as sonic.

I'd make Mario +1 and Sonic +1 as well.


edit: @ dabuz. I play espy often since he lives in Texas, I just took him to game 5 in GF last stock last hit. Videos up soon but I believe the MU is only +1 for Olimar

 

[Greward]

sheiks counters us, she has an advantage over us for sure. i have played lots of sheik players here in europe (its very used here in europe and their players arent bad) and all i can see is her having a great approach, killing options that she doesnt have in anyother matchup due to our recovery and her nair just stays out forever and outprioritizes everything (we can pivot grab it when falling but dont underestimate her speed).

falco -2 is ok, i said it long time ago
diddy is -1 at least, he has a solid advantage and i dont think it needs more explanation
ice climbers should be -2, they have a really easy time on us
wolf -1? WTF i hope wolf players in USA are extremely good
luigi -1 meh, havent had any problems with luigi that far
pit imo is an easy matchup, i would put it as +1 or +2
zelda is not +4 LOL but anyways assuming u got her ranked as the second worst i can understand u guys think that, otherwise imo zelda is an ok character, maybe im influenced because jujuxx ***** hard with her
pt should be 0, squirtle is mad difficult
dunno about sonic
DK is difficult when u get to play a good one, he got some great tricks, +1 should be better, anyways i dont understand him at all
mario 0? lol no

 

[Dabuz]

poor greward, his countries meta-game is so bad that they think diddy beats olimar and DK is actually a difficult character xD

also, mario was also hard to discuss because no one really knows the MU...and even though i used to play kirin a lot (also the second best mario xD), i never really learned the intricacies of the MU because olimar just needs side-B+pivot grab to compete with mario

 

[Denti]

poor greward, his countries meta-game is so bad that they think diddy beats olimar xD

Didn't you get destroyed by Gnes?


I think the diddy MU is open for debate tbh. Either it's even or +1 diddy.


You're right about Mario. I haven't fought a really good one offline, I've just fought flameon or whatever his name is. I normally beat him online by playing a solid campy smart Olimar, I'd have a hard time seeing why Mario would be any different offline, it might even be easier for us offline to be completely honest. POWER SHIELD BABY

 

[Dabuz]

Didn't you get destroyed by Gnes?


I think the diddy MU is open for debate tbh. Either it's even or +1 diddy.


You're right about Mario though, I haven't fought a really good one offline, I've just fought flameon or whatever his name is. I normally beat him online by playing a solid campy smart Olimar, I'd have a hard time seeing why Mario would be any different offline, it might even be easier for us offline to be completely honest. POWER SHIELD BABY

ummmm...a set with a match count of 2-1 his favor is not even close to getting destroyed...if i didn't lose my cool game 3 last stock i might have had a chance >_>...W/E, it was pretty agreed that diddy is even

 

[Denti]

Oh, good job! I heard it was a 2-0 double two stock. where did you cp him?

 

[Dabuz]

Oh, good job! I heard it was a 2-0 double two stock. where did you cp him?

WHO THE **** TOLD YOU IT WAS 2-0 DOUBLE 2 STOCK?!

round 1 was SV, he won by a stock, round 2 i went to lylat and won with a stock, round 3 he CPed PS1 and 2 stocked me (although my getting angry and basically losing an entire stock due to aggressiveness didn't help)

BTW, the matches are up on youtube

 

[Gnes]

Saltbuz has spoken ^_^

 

[Tin Man]

I'm surprised u lost on Ps1 vs Diddy lol. interesting cp of lylat, what did he ban?

I'd like to say more on Lucario but I'm studying for a midterm lol.

Just explain why Falco is so bad or decidedly worse than ICs plz.

I'd have thought wolf would be even as well. I'd say more but dat midterm lol.

I'd agree to diddy being even. I'd have thought if anything, olimar maybe has a bit more going for him.

Ness, I have nothing to say, I don't play good ness'. enlighten me.

Sheik also seems interesting. Japan says its a bad matchup for Olimar. Watch Japanese sheik's and compare them to ours I guess. Like Judo and Tutu are the best sheiks in North America IIRC. And yeah,

Dayum for Zelda being dat high. 3 perhaps?

 

[Dabuz]

i tried for zelda being +3...but no one agreed on their side and us olimars didn't care enoguh to argue

not much to say about ness, 0 was agreed on, end of story

I tried to get even for wolf even...:/

japan's metagame shiek and olimar=/=ours

falco shuts down every option olimar has, punishes him well, can camp him, and outprioritize him...

ics has...blizz wall (which is kinda easy to stop) and ICs get ***** once separated by olimar




And im not good on PS1...i would actually say thats my worst neutral because IDK how to deal with transformations and often times the stupid windmill one ****s me up and the rest make me impatient

 

[Tin Man]

Dabuz, PM me ur AiM.

 

[Dabuz]

i don't see the big deal in just publicly displaying my aim :/

aim: dabuz3

 

[Greward]

well dabuz im not really great at theorycrafting but when i see i get more results using my rob who i never play against diddys than my olimar i can think or that rob is counter (who's not) or that olimar has a disadvantage, or that im a ****ing genious with rob. anyways, just show me some top olimar getting solid wins (sets plz) against diddy players and then i could change my opinion.

 

[Dabuz]

well, lets see, me and RB are the only "top" american olimars (even then, im not sure if im good enough to really consider myself a "top" level player), and RB beat ADHD...there are no other top diddy vs. oli matches cept MAYBE me vs. ADHD and Gnes,so there isn't much to go on

you might also be bad at the MU with olimar, i've seen the way you play and i don't think you camp diddy right :3

 

[Tin Man]

Brood vs ADHD! 2 TOP players!

Find their vids on youtube.

 

[Dabuz]

thats 6 months old (except for one video which was probably a late upload), i've always anything older than 6 months is pretty irrelevant so IDK if thats good to count considering its exactly 6 months old

 

[Greward]

yep, my camping skills rly suck hard, we play really aggro in eu
if RB have beaten ADHD consistently then ur proving im wrong, so i can accept it being even (i guess...)

 

[MiniTroika]

I beat X twice

 

[Sky Pirate]

Out of how many attempts?
(no offense, just curious)

dabuz, I keep looking at this quote:

sonic: RB is the only top olimar to fight a good sonic in the past year and he doesn't know the MU, if olimar plays the MU correctly, sonic shouldn't win without being a much better player

And it still befuddles me.
You're saying that one top Olimar has fought a good Sonic in the last year and didn't know the match-up, but THEORETICALLY Sonic shouldn't be much of a problem.
Is this correct?
If so, how exactly did you reach this conclusion?

 

[Denti]

THAT'S WHAT I'M SAYING!!!! It's a 1 MU, not 2...

 

[Zori]

but i beat es.....



nvm


zelda counters us

 

[Dabuz]

BTW, i remember sometimes after RB lost to Espy, RB beat X (who arguably knows little about the MU as well), and then consider the fact that EVERY SONIC AND OLIMAR MAIN DISCUSSING THE MU SAID IT IS 2 OLI'S FAVOR


@CLOVER: its not really theory, its fact thats been proven over the past 3 years of brawl. Olimar's grabs+fsmash keeps sonic out for the most part and side-b pushes sonic in close only to get knocked out, add that to his lack of multi-hit moves, good ways to kill, and low priority, and you have a character that has to try a lot harder to win


Keep in mind that +2 is still very winnable, even if 2 players have the same skill and amount of MU knowledge, the disadvantaged player can win if he just plays better in the set overall. +3 is pretty much where its "Be a far better player or know the MU much better to have a shot at winning"

 

[Denti]

Looks like someone needs to fight espy

 

[MiniTroika]

Out of how many attempts?
(no offense, just curious)

It was my first time playing him and I beat him with a solid 2-0. I've played him twice and won both sets.

 

[Sky Pirate]

Damn. Nicely done!

Also, two random approach options Sonic has:
He can SideB into our blind spot.
He can Bair to Jab and apparently we can't do anything unless the Sonic messes it up.

Not sure how well-known the second is (I just found out about it the other day), so I thought I'd post about it to make this post less useless.

 

[Dabuz]

shield the bair then JC US OOS before the jab comes out

pivot grab, hyphen smash, or up-b the "blind spot" side-B

 

[Sky Pirate]

shield the bair then JC US OOS before the jab comes out

I think he has a +3 or +4 advantage is he Bairs our shield and a frame 3 jab.
Can't remember, I'll check the Sonic boards in a bit.

pivot grab, hyphen smash, or up-b the "blind spot" side-B

Easier said than done. T_T
(In all fairness, I might just be easy to bait into attacking)

 

[Dabuz]

in that case, just shield the jab or even, if your feeling good, SPOTDODGE THAT ****


and yeah, doign that to Side-B may be hard, but with 3 basic mixups it still works very well, also, two more: uptilt and dash attack

 

[Lord Chair]

poor greward, his countries meta-game is so bad that they think diddy beats olimar and DK is actually a difficult character xD

also, mario was also hard to discuss because no one really knows the MU...and even though i used to play kirin a lot (also the second best mario xD), i never really learned the intricacies of the MU because olimar just needs side-B+pivot grab to compete with mario

youre a terrible person and you should kill yourself

 

[Dnyce]

I didn't even know this thread even existed... I have screen caps of the whole discussion if anyone wants it.

 

[Teh Future]

matchups imo


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