Official Battlefield of the Gods - Pit / Dark Pit Matchup Discussion *Corrin, Samus, Shulk*

[Wintropy]

Welcome to Battlefield of the Gods, the new and improved Pit and Dark Pit matchup discussion thread!

The purpose of this thread is to discuss and determine the nature of Pit and Dark Pit's matchups with the rest of the roster. Players can offer feedback on the current characters in the thread, which will be updated regularly, and verify their opinion with a score that determines the nature of the matchup. The scores will be tallied at the end of the discussion period and communal consensus will determine the final matchup rating. Up to three characters will be discussed at a time, which will be suggested by members of the community. Discussion will go on until both sides have made their opinions known. Please feel free to participate, even if you don't main Pit or Dark Pit - feedback is very welcome from everybody that wants to join the discussion!

Courtesy of @Mr. ShinyUmbreon, we now have a detailed table of combos that will tell you when each of Pit and Dark Pit's combos can be used on other characters. While still under construction, you can use it as a helpful resource to embellish your matchup knowledge!


* CURRENTLY DISCUSSING *

Corrin

Samus

Shulk ​

* SCORES *​

+3 - Extreme advantage, Pit and Dark Pit have no difficulty whatsoever with this matchup

+2 - Moderate advantage, Pit and Dark Pit can win this matchup with relative ease

+1 - Small advantage, Pit and Dark Pit just about outdo the opponent

±0 - Even matchup, no side is necessarily better than the other

-1 - Small disadvantage, Pit and Dark Pit are just about outdone by the opponent

-2 - Moderate disadvantage, Pit and Dark Pit have difficulty with this matchup

-3 - Extreme disadvantage, this matchup is near unwinnable for Pit and Dark Pit​

* MATCHUPS *

| | | | | | | | | |
| -1 | +1 | +1 | | +1 | -1 / ±0 | +1 | +0 | -1 | -1

| | | | | | | | | |
| +1 | +1 | +2 | | -2 | | | | -2 | ±0

| | | | | | | | | |
| +1 | +0 | +1 | | | | | -1 | -1 |

| | | | | | | | | |
| -1 | +2 | | +2 | | ±0 | +1 | ±0 | +1 |

| | | | | | | |
| +1 | | | ±0 | | | +0 | -1

| | | | | | | | | |
| +1 | +1 | | -1 | -1 | | |

​

ROUND 1




Matchup Summary and Videos

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ROUND 2




Matchup Summary and Videos

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ROUND 3

*part 2*


Matchup Summary and Videos


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ROUND 4




Matchup Summary and Videos

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

[Fujiwara]

"Osawa Familty" would make more sense for Pit and Palutena.

I would be cool if we could talk about the Fire Emblem characters or better said Roy. I think Roy is a hard counter for Pit for many reasons but most of all because his speed allows him easily to bypass anything, like Sonic.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

"Osawa Familty" would make more sense for Pit and Palutena.

I would be cool if we could talk about the Fire Emblem characters or better said Roy. I think Roy is a hard counter for Pit for many reasons but most of all because his speed allows him easily to bypass anything, like Sonic.

I did the Sakurai family because...reasons. If the Roy thing is true, then I've never had to deal with it before(speed means nothing to me).

 

[Fujiwara]

I did the Sakurai family because...reasons. If the Roy thing is true, then I've never had to deal with it before(speed means nothing to me).

I've written it many times here before on the boards, but Roy is indeed a hard counter. He can bypass one (!) arrow (read:one) from the other side of the omega-stage just by powershielding till he's next to you. Just to make you clear how fast he is. And now add this to your own delays with Pit (fTilt, Jab, dTilt, etc.) and you will for sure learn to fear his grab. He is that fast. Almost like Sonic-fast.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

I've written it many times here before on the boards, but Roy is indeed a hard counter. He can bypass one (!) arrow (read:one) from the other side of the omega-stage just by powershielding till he's next to you. Just to make you clear how fast he is. And now add this to your own delays with Pit (fTilt, Jab, dTilt, etc.) and you will for sure learn to fear his grab. He is that fast. Almost like Sonic-fast.

You got to think if him as a faster yet stronger Marth, who doesn't have a good matchup against Pit/Dark Pit already.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Looks like the Mario Gang will be talked about first. We'll start it off like this for each character.
(50/50)Both

(50/50)Both(for now)
(55/45)Both

(60:40)Both




(55:45)(50:50)
Everyday a different character, but a whole week for each group. When(if)we go through all of them, I guess we can repeat the method.

Edit: For bigger groups like the Mario Bros, they'll have about 2-3 days a character(might have Mario and Dr.Mario share days, aswell as Pit/Dark Pit, Link/Toon Link, and Marth/John LuCena/Red Marth.
Starts 12am pacific for those who stay up that long.

P.S. @Nairo man, show love to Pit.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

http://smashboards.com/threads/pit-...for-the-gods-and-angels-who-kill-gods.414936/
Testing something out.

 

[miniada]

Hello pit mains I would like to give some input in the mario matchup pits moves aren't easy for mario to punish same goes for pit pit can escape his combos so can mario pit can kill so can mario and both Edgegaurd each other pretty good so i think its /50:50both are really well rounded and easy to use but both have their limatations so it's pretty even

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Hello pit mains I would like to give some input in the mario matchup pits moves aren't easy for mario to punish same goes for pit pit can escape his combos so can mario pit can kill so can mario and both Edgegaurd each other pretty good offstage so in my personal opinion 50:50 50:50 both are really well rounded and easy to use but both have their limatations so it's pretty even

So you're saying that the 2/3 easiest characters to use are even in the meta then, with without customs?

Also, thank you for giving us your input. I was thinking that the Mario threads were dead for a moment.

 

[miniada]

So you're saying that the 2/3 easiest characters to use are even in the meta then, with without customs?

Also, thank you for giving us your input. I was thinking that the Mario threads were dead for a moment.

Yes I do think the easiest charecters to use go even in this game without customs with custom moves I have no idea and your welcome for the input this is the only matchup for the pits I can explain in a legit way also as for I think they win because combos arnt as good so they are easier to escape and pits offstage game WRECKS doc so yeah

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Yes I do think the easiest charecters to use go even in this game without customs with custom moves I have no idea and your welcome for the input this is the only matchup for the pits I can explain in a legit way also as for I think they win because combos arnt as good so they are easier to escape and pits offstage game WRECKS doc so yeah

With Doc, would you say the matchup would be reasonable for the angels then
Pit/Dark Pit(55:45)(60:40)(65:35)
Pit(55:45)(60:40)(65:35)
Dark Pit(55:45)(60:40)(65:35)

 

[miniada]

With Doc, would you say the matchup would be reasonable for the angels then
Pit/Dark Pit(55:45)(60:40)(65:35)
Pit(55:45)(60:40)(65:35)
Dark Pit(55:45)(60:40)(65:35)

I think both pits win /60:40 he can't combo them and he gets completely destroyed offstage but his kill power is pretty good but other than that Doc has no really big advantage that helps him out in this matchup

 

[TMNTSSB4]

I think both pits win /60:40 he can't combo them and he gets completely destroyed offstage but his kill power is pretty good but other than that Doc has no really big advantage that helps him out in this matchup

Alright then, the Mario stuff was easier than expected, but thanks again for the input. I'll see if anyone agrees or disagrees.

 

[miniada]

Alright then, the Mario stuff was easier than expected, but thanks again for the input. I'll see if anyone agrees or disagrees.

Once again your welcome for the input I actually think people will disagree with mario most say the pits win because they have an offstage game against Mario meanwhile mario has one to that Is arguably better since pit(s) can't do anything during their recovery

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Once again your welcome for the input I actually think people will disagree with mario most say the pits win because they have an offstage game against Mario meanwhile mario has one to that Is arguably better since pit(s) can't do anything during their recovery

The only problems I'd see against a Mario would be his utilt, fair, F.L.U.D.D., and Cape. Besides those, I can't really see anything else that could get in their way.

 

[SilverWolfLaguz]

I feel that because Pit/DP and Mario are both such balanced fighters, neither one can really claim to have an advantage over the other. Both can edgeguard each other well (Pits' aerials and GOs versus Mario's cape and FLUDD), can escape each other's combos well (Pit can escape ultilt spam by DI'ing/vectoring up and jumping, for instance). Mario has more punch per individual hit and arguably the better projectile, but Pit has overall better speed (except in the air) and more reach on his attacks.

I'd say 50:50 for both Pits VS Mario. Doc probably has a slight disadvantage due to worse mobility and recovery, meaning he has a harder time edgeguarding (though he can still cape) and guard breaking.

 

[miniada]

I feel that because Pit/DP and Mario are both such balanced fighters, neither one can really claim to have an advantage over the other. Both can edgeguard each other well (Pits' aerials and GOs versus Mario's cape and FLUDD), can escape each other's combos well (Pit can escape ultilt spam by DI'ing/vectoring up and jumping, for instance). Mario has more punch per individual hit and arguably the better projectile, but Pit has overall better speed (except in the air) and more reach on his attacks.

I'd say 50:50 for both Pits VS Mario. Doc probably has a slight disadvantage due to worse mobility and recovery, meaning he has a harder time edgeguarding (though he can still cape) and guard breaking.

You basically just stated the thing about this matchup that makes me confused everyone says pit wins but both charecters have no significant advantage over each other

 

[Fujiwara]

I've written it somewhere before but a good Mario trolls Pit with his cape. This is the reason alone I would give >at least< 45:55 Pit/Mario.

 

[Wintropy]

Roy is a hard counter?

You're gonna have to explain that in finer detail. I play the top Roy in my region, maybe even my country, on a near-daily basis. There is no way on Palutena's good earth he is a hard counter.

I think we actually beat him, truth told.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

So far, Pit/Dark Pit is even with Mario, but have an advantage on Dr.Mario by a little bit. Seems like the Mario discussion is settled, and we agree on the scores. If anyone doesn't mind, we could talk about Luigi since Mario is...dead.

 

[Wintropy]

Copy-pasted what I said in the old matchup thread re: Luigi:

Honestly, I think it's an oversimplification to say we win if we keep Luigi in the air. Luigi is an incredibly slippery opponent that keeps you on your toes, he's very difficult to reliably combo and can get huge rewards off of a trivial punish.

The trick with this matchup is to remember that Luigi, like Pit, is a punishment demon. His mobility is godawful and he doesn't have very many strong moves in neutral, so he needs to exploit any and all weaknesses to get ahead. His grab is notorious for the d-throw followup combos it enables, up to and including f-air strings and the infamous 'nado: a single grab can result in upwards of 30% damage if discretion favours the green fellow. Even DI isn't an ideal option, since Luigi has a variety of followups to ensure that, no matter where you go, you get punished for it.

So we know Luigi's punish game is insane. He can easily dominate the neutral if you let him, with fireballs served every which way to force us to either try to out-camp him with arrows (risky, since Luigi can camp us out more conveniently than we can him) or approach. If we approach, we're in Luigi's element: now he can work to get the punish, and most importantly, the burden is on us to regain control of the set. Luigi loves it when his opponent is under pressure, as he can control the pace of the match with fireballs (a weak projectile that can nevertheless be spammed with ease, which makes mid-range options near-invalidated) and close-range options (grab is the obvious choice, but he has good frame data on his jab, f-air, b-air and n-air too, so watch out for these moves). If you really drop your guard, he can even seal the stock with a sweetspot up-b: essentially Jigglypuff's Rest with less endlag and moderately weaker kill power.

So how do we counter Luigi? Well, the good news is that, even though he can freely dominate the neutral if he's successful with his pressure tactics, he's very easy to exploit himself and has very few options out of his element. In the air, Luigi's only real answer is n-air (this is important, of course, I will get back to this in a moment), otherwise he's pretty easy to juggle. While it'd be naive to say his neutral game requires him to be within grab range or that that's his only viable option, he can himself be punished if we force him to approach instead. His fireballs, as mentioned, make it difficult to approach and our arrows only go so far to catch him out, so we need to get creative. If we can powershield his fireballs and force him to backpedal, he can end up totally free for a grab, which we can get decent mileage out of too; furthermore, because Luigi uses the 'nado a lot (especially as a d-throw followup or to punish our landing), we can get a feel for when he's going to use it and then shield-grab him from it. 'Nado may have favourable priority and does intense damage, but it's incredibly unsafe on shield, so a brief observation of when and how to best punish the 'nado can be a worthwhile investment indeed. You can, in theory, side-b to punish it, but I'd be very wary of this: 'nado's hitbox has a ton of distance to cover if it travels horizontally, which means it can hit you on the final frames when side-b's super armour dissipates. Just shield it and followup however you feel comfortable.

This is a very important point I need to mention, which applies to every stage of the match: beware reliance on combos! Luigi's n-air is essentially a "get out of jail free" card for combos, since it can come out between hitboxes and sends the target vertically. Luigi, as I mentioned, is a slippery opponent and his habit of punishing even the briefest drop in defence means we can never get too comfortable with our combos. Focus instead on punishing when appropriate and be sure to respect Luigi's options, because going full-on rushdown on the green fellow is a surefire way to get bodied.

Off-stage, we have a clear advantage so long as we steer clear of the 'nado: his recovery is decent if he uses up-b or 'nado in conjunction with side-b, but the side-b itself is criminally easy to intercept, either with an aerial or just with a kamikaze jump in front of it. It can discharge on occasion, so be wary of the kamikaze method if other options are viable. The 'nado itself can make interception dangerous, but fortunately it's only a viable option if Luigi is right below the ledge. Our job is to therefore keep Luigi as far away from the stage as possible: a good gimp can force Luigi into a position where he's just unable to recover! His edgeguarding game doesn't have much in the way of options either: except for fireballs and, if he's feeling bold, the 'nado, we should be able to go deep and recover quite neatly.

Overall, I think this matchup is tricky but bearable. I wouldn't say it's too far in either party's favour, but it can be very difficult for us to capitalise on our otherwise ubiquitous combos in this game. We need to respect Luigi's options and be able to return the favour whenever we get the chance to. It's a war of attrition, but if we persevere and fight with discretion and finesse, we can win it.

Incidentally, I think we should keep matchup discussion going for a few days at least. We need to get more detailed insights into characters if we're going to advance our matchup thread.

EDIT: It would be a good idea to announce our current matchup discussion, too. Mention it in the thread title so we know what's what.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Copy-pasted what I said in the old matchup thread re: Luigi:



Incidentally, I think we should keep matchup discussion going for a few days at least. We need to get more detailed insights into characters if we're going to advance our matchup thread.

EDIT: It would be a good idea to announce our current matchup discussion, too. Mention it in the thread title so we know what's what.

So pretty much add the name of the character were discussing?
Also, what ratio do you consider the Luigi matchup?

 

[Wintropy]

So pretty much add the name of the character were discussing?

Yes.

Also, what ratio do you consider the Luigi matchup?

I don't usually work with matchup ratios, but if I had to quantify it, I'd say it's -1 for us.

 

[miniada]

For luigI the matchup is very similar to mario the only differences are that luigi has better damage output and more kill power he has less mobility and is easier to kill so from that and my experience at the luigi boards I would say it's /50:50

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Yes.

Your wish has been granted. Wario won't count as a plumber because...Wario.

For luigI the matchup is very similar to mario the only differences are that luigi has better damage output and more kill power he has less mobility and is easier to kill so from that and my experience at the luigi boards I would say it's /50:50

I don't usually work with matchup ratios, but if I had to quantify it, I'd say it's -1 for us.

Right now, there's 2 different answers for the Pit/Luigi matchup. I'll go to the Luigi boards(whichever is the most active), and get results from them in order to set up the score.

 

[Wintropy]

Right now, there's 2 different answers for the Pit/Luigi matchup. I'll go to the Luigi boards(whichever is the most active), and get results from them in order to set up the score.

We should invite members of the Luigi board to come over and discuss the matchup with us.

We can't form an aggregate score based on two people's opinions, y'know?

 

[miniada]

Your wish has been granted. Wario won't count as a plumber because...Wario.


Right now, there's 2 different answers for the Pit/Luigi matchup. I'll go to the Luigi boards(whichever is the most active), and get results from them in order to set up the score.

Someone made a matchup chat for luigi saying pit was even I suggest you replied and ask that

 

[TMNTSSB4]

We should invite members of the Luigi board to come over and discuss the matchup with us.

We can't form an aggregate score based on two people's opinions, y'know?

...I already said that though.

 

[Wintropy]

...I already said that though.

Right, sorry. I thought you meant you'd check out their matchup score and add it to ours.

Carry on, good sir~ ;3

 

[Fujiwara]

Roy is a hard counter?

You're gonna have to explain that in finer detail. I play the top Roy in my region, maybe even my country, on a near-daily basis. There is no way on Palutena's good earth he is a hard counter.

I've played with my Roy on a weekly basis for a long time and so far he's the strongest player I've encountered. I'll try to play with him in the next time and send you the replay after.

 

[Fujiwara]

So, my contribution to the Pit VS Ike-MU.

This is a friendly against a somewhat good Ike-player (even when it's not visible in the video). We played yesterday straight for four hours so we can try everything out and this is one of the later games where I was on a winning-strike. He knows my playstyle well and does fine against other Pits, just as a reminder.

First of all, let me say, that our MU is perhaps 60:40 or even 65:35 when the situation calls for it. A good Ike-player will play very defensive against us, regardless of his own skill-level because he knows that we can easily stop him from recovering with his Side-B Special via the Orbitars or just running into him at low %. Either way, it will be fatal for him. Anticipate his fSpecial recovery in two ways: At the edge or at the other side of the stage. His after-delay for this move is a stock-killer for sure. Either way, just keep pressing on. On the other side he can easily punish us and rack up damage. Similar to Luigi he has no problem doing 30-50% if the hits connect in one run. We even easily lose a stock around 60%-90% so you should be always careful fighting aggressive against him. His air moves have a big range around him and can hurt us even when he's not facing us. Jabs and d-Tilt are quick attacks to disrupt our flow.

The main reason I spam him with arrows is quite simple. His fSpecial can come out of nowhere if he's in our range and of course kill us. Most Ikes use the Fast Fall fAir move to approach most of the cast and usually it works too. As with all counter-characters be sure that he will try to use Counter at any time. Nevery force yourself to kill him early, it can backfire. This is why I waited in the video to be sure that he won't use counter and will jump right into me. Because of Ikes sheer power he can easily jump in *anything* he wants to. The most secure way to play against a Ike is to stay away from him and annoy him with arrows if possible. His moveset is predictable and he will most likely be around the center the stage. Ike really falls for arrow-setups. Abuse it if possible. Aether is a powerful move in it's own way. As you guys can see on the video, the range is quite big and goes above the lower parts of the edge. At high % it can launch us up into the air but I think it will not kill us until +160% If you want to disrupt a Ikes pace, than there's nothing better than pushing him with a grab at the end of the edge and just hitting him like there's no day tomorrow. The most times a Ike-player will fall straight down and won't grab the edge. It's a good setup for a bAir or just catching them off-guard when they need to recover themself.

Hope that helps someone.

 

[TriTails]

Did anyone here said Doc has a harder time gimping Pit? Get offstage and you're pretty much dead from Sheet + Tornado shenanigans.

 

[Wintropy]

Did anyone here said Doc has a harder time gimping Pit? Get offstage and you're pretty much dead from Sheet + Tornado shenanigans.

Care to elaborate on that?

I mean, I definitely think you're right, but I'd be interested in your rationale.

 

[miniada]

Why does it say space heroes are you guys skipping and all the other mario charecters

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Why does it say space heroes are you guys skipping and all the other mario charecters

Whoops. Totally forgot about them, my mistake. School is a horrible thing.

 

[miniada]

Whoops. Totally forgot about them, my mistake. School is a horrible thing.

Well then we are now discussing the big daddy it seems

 

[miniada]

So it seems no one is talking about so I will /55:45 bowser gets combo'ed edgeguarded gimped punished by pit his only advantage is being heavy and pit(s) are pretty light

 

[TriTails]

Care to elaborate on that?

I mean, I definitely think you're right, but I'd be interested in your rationale.

Sheet should be able to reflect Arms (I think I've gotten that thing at me once), and Dr. Tornado murders hitboxless recovery if you're doing it predictably.

Dr. Tornado can KO Bowser at 70% off-stage and make it back to the stage with just his double jump. So that's saying something.

And stage spike B-air is always sexy.

 

[Routa]

...we can easily stop him from recovering with his Side-B Special via the Orbitars...

Haha haa... Your best choice is to edgeguard with arrows. Ike wants to recover high when fighting Pits. Also don't challenge Ike's side-b. It is way easier to interrupt with arrows. You want to force Ike approach with your arrows. Ike is instantly in a disadvantage stage when he is forced to approach due to lack of safe approach moves. What you want to do is to throw Ike upwards and follow up with Uair and combo him. Also if you get launched off stage you are pretty much doomed if you don't have enough time to shoot Ike with at least 1 arrow. Why? Eruption. This thing is your worst nightmare. Pits are easy Eruption targets what you want to do is to try to interrupt his charging to avoid getting insta killed. Also Pits slow recovery is easy Fair in the face. So I would say that Ike is a threat.

Numbers? I would say maybe 55:45 on Pits/DPits favour. I would say DPit has easier time due to Side-B's angle. When used near stage it can send Ike in such angle where he simply cannot recover. But then again Ike can kill you with only 5 moves so...

 

[Project_B]

About the whole "Orbitars vs Ike" thing, I know that when timed correctly, it will push Ike's Aether away from stageand he will use his downwards attack past the edge and die (like it does with Kirby's), but this is impossible if the Ike spaces himself so that he grabs the edge without coming up over the stage.

@ F Fujiwara , do you know if stopping Ike's side B with Orbitars puts him into free fall (helpless)? I know that a decent distance offstage, it will kill him anyway, but seeing as he won't actually hit anyone, I was wondering if he would still be able to Aether right after it. I am reminded of how, in Brawl, if you were to run offstage and airdodge Ike's Quick Draw, he would swing, miss, then stop in his tracks and fall to his death.