Official Battlefield of the Gods - Pit / Dark Pit Matchup Discussion *Corrin, Samus, Shulk*

[CHOMPY]

@JJROCKETS has a really solid Diddy and plays him the way Diddy is meant to be played. Whenever him and I face off in bracket, our matches can go either way, but he still outplays me and is a really solid player. If you don't have quick enough reaction time against this guy, you will definitely lose, especially the older you get, the slower reaction time you can get. (lol)



Normally, I would play very patient against any other character. However, against Diddy, you need to play agressive and not let him take over stage control. First things first, airdodge to catch his banana. Once you have the banana in your hand, dance around until Diddy eventually will drop his shield. The one thing I noticed is when Diddy does his fast falling fair and you toss the banana to try to hit him, it does not hit Diddy. Wait until Diddy gets up from the ground and thats when you should toss the banana. If Diddy tries to either monkey flip, or dash jump, jump above him and do a z-drop banana to fast fall bair. If Diddy is holding the banana, don't throw out any moves that have a lot of ending lag. Otherwise, you'll get punished severly from a free banana to fsmash/grab. Most Diddy players will stay grounded when they are holding the banana, so your going to have to play against Diddy as if your fighting a Little Mac. When the banana is in the ground, you can grab it by doing a rising fair, or a rising dair. I know using a dash attack may be easier, but its very unsafe because you can get hit by Diddys well spaced fsmash, fair, or even worse, hit Diddy on shield and getting punished for it.

Since Diddy is a fast faller, has terrible air speed, two jumps, most of Pits aerials have multi hitboxes, so you'll have an easier time catching his landings once you notice a landing pattern the Diddy player has. The kill moves that you need to watch out for are d-tilt to usmash, banana to fsmash, and fthrow. Diddys dtilt comes out so fast that you can't really punish it out of your shield, so your options are to do either a side B to eat through his dtilt, thanks to Pits super armor, or simply roll and do a 3-hit jab. When your near the ledge of the stage and you at high percentage, don't drop your shield until Diddy does the fast falling fair. When landing, just grab the ledge and return back on stage safely to regain stage control. If you hit Diddy on shield with Pit's falling aerial, then he will punish your mistakes. Instead space yourself with a bair/fair, or do an empty land.

The way you want to edge guard Diddy is by predicting its movement patterns. They will try to monkey flip near the ledge, so using your long lasting nair to cover its movement options. When Diddy is charging his barrels, use nair to prevent him from getting back on stage. If you want to edge guard him with the arrows, then I suggest do a run away full hop arrows to give yourself more space to aim and your shoot your arrows. If you notice Diddy air dodging offstage, then go for either a bair or dair, depending on the positioning.

Overall, if you have good reaction time, know your opponents landing patterns, properly edgeguard, and you know the matchup, it could be 50-50. However, if your unfamiliar with the matchup and your reaction time isn't there, and you let Diddy take stage control with the banana in hand, then it's a 40-60 Diddys favor.

 

[Strider_123]

Question for you guys: Why does Zero suit samus have the advantage against pit?
when i look at matchups shes usually listed as "giving pit trouble" but why? i admit i haven't battled a lot of zero suits () but from the ones i did, i didn't feel like they had the upper hand. Who else would you say gives you trouble when playing pit? I say little mac () gives me problems mostly because of his super armor and alot of his moves are too quick.

 

[miniada]

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...oMZlbJXqKPtHEBFgA&sig2=LVkhw3SKhdpHULrWH9Gh2w we are discussing pit(s) and would love your input

 

[Swamp Sensei]

http://smashboards.com/threads/charizard-matchup-discussion-pit-dark-pit.423939/

Hey angel mains!

We at the Charizard boards are currently discussing the Charizard vs Pit / Dark Pit.

We'd love to hear what you guys have to say about the matchup(s). Perhaps the subtle differences in Pit and Dark Pit make a difference here? We'd love to know.

Come on over! :D

 

[Sensane]

Question for you guys: Why does Zero suit samus have the advantage against pit?
when i look at matchups shes usually listed as "giving pit trouble" but why? i admit i haven't battled a lot of zero suits () but from the ones i did, i didn't feel like they had the upper hand. Who else would you say gives you trouble when playing pit? I say little mac () gives me problems mostly because of his super armor and alot of his moves are too quick.

Simple: Zero Suit's neutral game is infinitely better than ours. ZSS can use paralyzer and z-air to outspace us and overall, like Sonic, she's 2fast4Pits. And as for Little Mac....just wait until the matchup thread comes, though I'd say (55:45)

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Wintropy no offense, but if you're gonna run an MU Thread, atleast update stuff

 

[Sensane]

I know we're kinda done with the Sheik matchup, but I would like to add something: orbitars can be used to gimp a Sheik who's recovering with bouncing fish. One time I was playing a Sheik on FD and this happened: I was retreated to the left side of the stage to start camping, but the Sheik player chased me down and came at me with a BF and I reacted with orbitars and it bounced Sheik all the way across the stage and snapped on to the ledge on the right. Think what would happen if I was gimping a bouncing fish recovery.....

 

[Sensane]

Wintropy no offense, but if you're gonna run an MU Thread, atleast update stuff

I was going to say that, too.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

I was going to say that, too.

This...situation is the reason why there needs to be a new active one...I call dips

 

[ReRaze]

Simple: Zero Suit's neutral game is infinitely better than ours. ZSS can use paralyzer and z-air to outspace us and overall, like Sonic, she's 2fast4Pits. And as for Little Mac....just wait until the matchup thread comes, though I'd say (55:45)

All completely my opinion so don't take anything that I say as a certain fact and feel free to correct me on anything.

I beg to differ with the ZSS MU. Pit being an extremely fundamental based character with a hell of a lot of tools means the way he is played can differ greatly between players. If she wants to play the spacing game we might as well outcamp her with arrows and zair and paralyzer aren't as useful as at mid-close range where we get most of our damage (due to our better grabs and aerials and to some extent tilts).

I agree with the little mac MU though, his neutral game onstage is devestating and unlike ZSS he beats us in close quarters, it's especially harder when our aerials are our main spacing tools which are kind awkward to use against a short ground based character, anything else is easily punished by mac. Get him in the air or offstage and he's obviously dead though.

 

[Wintropy]

The reason the thread hasn't been updated in a while is because, quite frankly, there is nothing to talk about and I don't have the time or wherewithal to maintain it. I'm juggling studying for a Master's degree with writing essays, presentations for seminars, trying to make a career for myself and other relatively trivial pastimes - practicing Smash, going to tournaments, that kind of thing.

I've spoken to CHOMPY about getting somebody else to take over or start a new thread (which he vetoed, so that isn't happening). If somebody wants to take over, by all means, be my guest. Speak to somebody who can change the thread owner. To be honest, I don't think this sub-community is very active to begin with: despite this being our, what, fourth matchup thread in the space of about a year, we've barely covered any ground in our discussions. That's okay, we have other things to be doing, and not that many people play or have experience fighting the Pits. There isn't much to discuss that really matters in the grand scheme of things. Matchup discussions don't even matter to me right now, I'm more interested in trying to advance the Pit meta by discussing things in the competitive board, where - no offense - these discussions can make something of a discernible difference.

TMNTSSB4 , the reason I took over the matchup thread in the first place is because the others were going nowhere and I was hoping somebody had an interest in taking over. I only intended to run the OP as a stopgap measure so we'd get something going on, because every other matchup thread withered and died within about a month. I'm sorry, but you can't just "call dibs" on running the thread. We took over this thread from you because you were unable to do it at the time and we wanted to try and get things done with it. No offense to Chompy either, but he hasn't been very active as the moderator of this board, and that has created something of a fragmented discussion forum where nobody knows what's what and nothing gets done. I understand that he's busy and has other things to do, but I have to beg forgiveness if I say there's no drive here towards doing things here because even the moderator can't maintain it. He says to keep discussion going either way, so if you want to, do it.

If you want to take over the matchup thread, be my guest. I'm honestly not interested and I'd be quite happy to be relieved of ownership.

 

[Mr. ShinyUmbreon]

The reason the thread hasn't been updated in a while is because, quite frankly, there is nothing to talk about and I don't have the time or wherewithal to maintain it. I'm juggling studying for a Master's degree with writing essays, presentations for seminars, trying to make a career for myself and other relatively trivial pastimes - practicing Smash, going to tournaments, that kind of thing.

I can understand, balancing smash and school can be pretty difficult.

There isn't much to discuss that really matters in the grand scheme of things. Matchup discussions don't even matter to me right now, I'm more interested in trying to advance the Pit meta by discussing things in the competitive board, where - no offense - these discussions can make something of a discernible difference.

While matchups are very important in my opinion in sm4sh, I can understand why you want to move the meta. In my opinion, Pit's entire neutral game revolves around matchups, you don't play the neutral against Ryu and Mario the same way you play against Dedede and Marth.

TMNTSSB4 , the reason I took over the matchup thread in the first place is because the others were going nowhere and I was hoping somebody had an interest in taking over. I only intended to run the OP as a stopgap measure so we'd get something going on, because every other matchup thread withered and died within about a month. I'm sorry, but you can't just "call dibs" on running the thread. We took over this thread from you because you were unable to do it at the time and we wanted to try and get things done with it. No offense to Chompy either, but he hasn't been very active as the moderator of this board, and that has created something of a fragmented discussion forum where nobody knows what's what and nothing gets done. I understand that he's busy and has other things to do, but I have to beg forgiveness if I say there's no drive here towards doing things here because even the moderator can't maintain it. He says to keep discussion going either way, so if you want to, do it.

Yeah, Chompy is a good guy, but he still isn't as active as mods should be. I assume he probably has other things to do, but still.

If you want to take over the matchup thread, be my guest. I'm honestly not interested and I'd be quite happy to be relieved of ownership.

Hmm... I've only been on smashboards for a couple months, but I'm still very active, and I think Matchups are important for Pit, and smash 4 in general. I might volunteer for this, but I dunno.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Well time for a new...again...

 

[TMNTSSB4]

http://smashboards.com/threads/pitboys-vs-the-world.424290/


You know it was expected(that and I think all the mods are dead internet wise)

 

[CHOMPY]

Guys. I know this thread hasn't gone anywhere, but I really don't think we need to keep making new topic threads. If anything, we will keep going on discussing on this thread and I can take over for now until someone else wants to voluntarily take over. You guys seem to want to make topic threads outside of the MU board. I can understand if you guys are frustrated about a certain MU, but please take it here and not outside. As of now, I will take over and continue to where we left off and begin discussing other characters. Right now, it seems like people want to discuss about Mario, Little Mac, and Charizard. From here on then, we will talk about them for 1 week and move on to another character, but you guys also need to put in the work and not depend on me to playtests all of the MU for you.

By the way Wintropy how were you able to put the matchup summary under the summary table tab? It keeps going under the first tab instead of going under the summary tab.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Guys. I know this thread hasn't gone anywhere, but I really don't think we need to keep making new topic threads. If anything, we will keep going on discussing on this thread and I can take over for now until someone else wants to voluntarily take over. You guys seem to want to make topic threads outside of the MU board. I can understand if you guys are frustrated about a certain MU, but please take it here and not outside. As of now, I will take over and continue to where we left off and begin discussing other characters. Right now, it seems like people want to discuss about Mario, Little Mac, and Charizard. From here on then, we will talk about them for 1 week and move on to another character, but you guys also need to put in the work and not depend on me to playtests all of the MU for you.

By the way Wintropy how were you able to put the matchup summary under the summary table tab? It keeps going under the first tab instead of going under the summary tab.

We mostly depend on @LancerStaff though

 

[CHOMPY]

As of this week we are going to discuss these characters





Let the discussion begin!

 

[Sensane]

Swag; anyways, my thoughts:
(40:60) (40:60)
I say this because camping is a little difficult due to Mario's amazing air speed and that orbitars don't do a whole lot against Mario and because of the Pits' hurtboxes it's easy for Mario to combo us. Dark Pit has it slightly worse since he struggles with getting a reliable vertical kill, and [from my experience] Mario often survives horizontal kills that don't kill him off.
(60:40) (60:40)
It's easy for us to combo and gimp Charizard, and while Chari does have combos himself, we can also camp him away from us due to our superior mobility. Charizard also has a hard time gimping us. I say that Dark Pit could have an easier time killing him because Charizard is too heavy to die vertically, and while his recovery is long distanced, it's also predictable and gives us an open window to d-air spik him.
(55:45) (55:45)
Little Mac is tricky for some people, especially the really good ones, but we're more than capable of gimping him offstage, but we also have to be super careful and counter successfully as he is still a threat in good hands

 

[Handy Man]

(70:30)

This is a bad matchup for Charizard imo. Zard has one of the worst air speeds in the game, and he's also one of the heaviest in the game. Combined with Pit's great range and juggling ability, Zard has a really hard time landing against him. Zard also has a somewhat hard time with edgeguarding Pit, since Pit's recovery is amazing and he's able to mix it up really well. Zard can Flamethrower the ledge if Pit is trying to recover, but it's too risky for Zard to go off-stage to edgeguard Pit due to his fast recovery and the fact that Pit can stage spike Zard. Pit can also get a lot off of grabbing Zard, since his jab is really fast and his throws can set up for some nasty strings and juggling. I would avoid going to Battlefield and Dreamland when fighting Zard, as those stages give him reliable escape options and Seismic Toss setups. However, winning on those stages is still possible, but Pit's best stages in this matchup are probably Final Destination and Smashville, due to the lack of platforms making it harder for Zard to land, as well as the moving platform making it slightly easier for Pit to kill.

This matchup is winnable for Zard, but if you're smart and give Zard no room to breathe, you shouldn't be too worried. I could say a lot of the same things for Dark Pit, but overall, Pit is better for this matchup due to his arrows covering up more space.

 

[Mr. ShinyUmbreon]

(55:45) (55:45)
Little Mac is tricky for some people, especially the really good ones, but we're more than capable of gimping him offstage, but we also have to be super careful and counter successfully as he is still a threat in good hands

I'd argue that Pit has disadvantage against Mac. Little Mac is difficult to space out with Pit and in neutral, I've always had a hard time with Mac, he can out-frame data most of Pit's moves. While Pit can easily gimp mac, I find it extremely difficult in the neutral. But that's me.

(40:60) (40:60)
I say this because camping is a little difficult due to Mario's amazing air speed and that orbitars don't do a whole lot against Mario and because of the Pits' hurtboxes it's easy for Mario to combo us. Dark Pit has it slightly worse since he struggles with getting a reliable vertical kill, and [from my experience] Mario often survives horizontal kills that don't kill him off.

I disagree with this as well. from my experience, this matchup is either even or in Pit's favor, spacing out mario has never been a problem for me, neither has camping with arrows. At least, when I'm not on FD. With arrow camping I can normally retreat to a platform below or above mario and escape his fireballs and force him to approach. This leaves mario in a bad position since he has no reliable approaches. I've been able to escape mario's combos. But that's just me. Also, people use Guardian Orbitars? what?

 

[Sensane]

I use orbitars; I find it to be an underrated move, especially against Sonic. Also, I find your reasonings vaild, I just never learned how to escape Mario's combos.

 

[Wintropy]

gonna try and keep this concise. bear with me.

mac is a character that excels at one thing, and that is ground-based combat. if he has an opening and can break down your defenses, he's a demon. he will make it very difficult for you to breathe if you don't respect him.

footsies is of the utmost importance here, and it will decide who ultimately wins this matchup. mac has great footsies thanks to his frame data, burst movement options, pivot tilts / smashes and, when it's on-deck, the potential threat of ko punch. a good mac won't rush in and hit you, they'll bide their time and play the neutral, wait for you to over-commit and then punish you for it. you can't force anything and even trying to hit him straight-on can be negated by his armoured smashes and frame one invincible up-b. he will punish rolls, spotdodges and landings if he gets the chance, he's a punishment fiend and he will play the neutral for everything it's worth. that means pit has to play the same kind of game: play the neutral, keep on top of the opponent, read the openings and go for the punishes.

fortunately, pit's good at that. he's not as fast as mac and he can't convert a single burst punish into the kind of intense damage mac can, but he has two very important weapons here that mac has to respect: disjoints and grab.

disjoints will be very helpful in keeping mac at a safe distance if he tries to get in and invade your space, you can space him out effectively if you get a feel for his movements and know how he's going to approach. spacing mac is important, as it can narrow down his approach options and keep him from rushing you down, but what you really want to do is make sure he can't get a good opening to punish you. make sure you know how to autocancel your airs and don't commit to anything unsafe, just play it safe and make sure mac doesn't get too comfortable.

grab is, in my experience, the big thing that distinguishes the two fighters in this matchup. pit's grab game is great, and if you play the neutral well and can get mac in a compromising position, you can really turn the tide of the game. pressure mac to the edge and, with enough damage on him, f-throw or b-throw will make it very difficult for him to recover. getting mac into this position is easier said than done, though, and a good mac won't just camp out at the edge so you can throw him off. stage control is vital in this matchup, and mac will try to pressure you so you don't get the chance to grab. don't be disconcerted, and don't fish for anything. if you get the chance to grab, go for it - even a simple d-throw or u-throw can put mac in disadvantage, where you can hopefully get extra damage and make it difficult for him to recover. even just getting the extra pummel damage is a great help, you want to get damage on mac wherever you can, because you can't afford to get impatient and force the damage output. that will get you killed. patience is key, but remember that grab is your secret weapon, and in neutral, it is a weapon mac must respect.

which brings me to mac's secret weapon: ko punch. this move is extremely situational, but you cannot underestimate it. chances are, unless you can gimp mac before 40-odd %, you will see this once per stock, so you need to know how to react to it. if mac has the punch on-board, the entire dynamic of the game can change: now you just need to make one mistake and he can potentially convert a weak hit into a fatal one. don't give him the opportunity. how you react to it depends on what kind of mac you're fighting and what stage the game is in: an aggressive mac or a mac that's got the lead will probably try to pressure you with it and force you to go on the defensive, whereas a conservative mac or a mac that's behind will probably be more patient with it. either way, don't be intimidated: respect his space and try not to whiff anything that can give him an opening to finish you. essentially this is an extreme version of the normal neutral game, with the advantage heavily in mac's favour if he gets the opportunity to punish. mac will drop ko punch if he's put into the tumble animation, for example if he's hit with a strong knockback move or thrown, so you can neutralise the threat if you can turn the tables on him. if you've got the lead or you're confident you can bait mac into using the punch, it might not be a bad idea to pressure him back, especially if he wants to play the mind game of seeing who will blink first. this is an extreme microcosmic matchup in itself, and it comes with a high price for both sides: if mac connects, you're dead, and if he whiffs, he's back to square one. a very desperate or very offensive mac might even play to the ko punch, just biding time until they get it and then pinning everything on it connecting, so you really have to study the kind of mac you're fighting and know their habits and how they will use the move. it's a very important and potentially pivotal part of the matchup, but if you can beat mac with the ko punch, you can beat mac in neutral!

quick notes on edgeguarding: mac's very easy to gimp, in that he can't recover from certain launch trajectories, so don't get over-confident and try to finish him if there's a chance it will just help him recover (d-air spike, for example, can pop him into the air and help him him get back). mac might try to bait you to hit him when he's off-stage and try to use counter as a horizontal recovery, especially if he can't get back with up-b or side-b. keep this in mind and remember that, in this case, sometimes less is more! when getting back on-stage, use your getup options wisely and don't let mac read you. keep him guessing and try to reset as quickly and efficiently as possible.

remember that mac is a momentum-based character, and if that momentum is upset, it can be difficult for him to reset. stay safe and be patient, play the neutral and keep on top of him without getting impatient with him. it's a very volatile matchup and can go either way depending on footsies and how well each side can do to read and bait the other, so hone your punish game and be patient. float like an angel, sting like a...stinging angel!

 

[Sensane]

When I'm Pit, I don't often have to much trouble with Mac if I'm really dedicated to the match and actually respect my opponent. I'd say that this MU would go in Dark Pit's favor because of Electroshock and that his arrows are more suited for ground based characters anyway, since Little Mac players don't always jump too much. A well spaced Electroshock can almost annihilate Mac at the right percents. Pit, on the other hand, has a harder time with stage control, and Mac players can pressure us to little to no end, as Wintropy stated, especially if we don't respect Mac players (which I admit that sometimes I don't XP). And because of Mac's extreme power, he can break the orbitars without even trying hard, similar to other powerhouse characters like Bowser, Ganon, and DK, but Pit can outspace those characters anyway (especially Ganon), whereas there is no way for Mac to be outspaced by projectiles, especially not our arrows. If we just bait his approaches we can get a grab on him, and I'd try juggling Mac as much as possible so that we can get some stage control. And when the time is right, use a forward or back throw to throw him off. So I change my matchup scores.
(40:60) (50:50)

 

[Wintropy]

When I'm Pit, I don't often have to much trouble with Mac if I'm really dedicated to the match and actually respect my opponent. I'd say that this MU would go in Dark Pit's favor because of Electroshock and that his arrows are more suited for ground based characters anyway, since Little Mac players don't always jump too much. A well spaced Electroshock can almost annihilate Mac at the right percents. Pit, on the other hand, has a harder time with stage control, and Mac players can pressure us to little to no end, as Wintropy stated, especially if we don't respect Mac players (which I admit that sometimes I don't XP). And because of Mac's extreme power, he can break the orbitars without even trying hard, similar to other powerhouse characters like Bowser, Ganon, and DK, but Pit can outspace those characters anyway (especially Ganon), whereas there is no way for Mac to be outspaced by projectiles, especially not our arrows. If we just bait his approaches we can get a grab on him, and I'd try juggling Mac as much as possible so that we can get some stage control. And when the time is right, use a forward or back throw to throw him off. So I change my matchup scores.
(40:60) (50:50)

i'd recommend not using orbies in neutral. the startup and endlag can be easily punished and there's really no reason why you'd use it over shield.

i don't think mac has nearly that good an advantage; i'd honestly struggle to say he has the advantage, full stop. if you respect mac's space and really commit to playing the neutral well, there's not much he can do to threaten pit's mobility and disjointed range. it's not a matchup pit should realistically be losing if he knows how to counter mac's dominant ground game and abuse his fundamental weaknesses. i'd say it's even at worst.

 

[Sensane]

i'd recommend not using orbies in neutral. the startup and endlag can be easily punished and there's really no reason why you'd use it over shield.

I use the orbitars because it can prevent pit from being juggled and can affect certain characters approaches. Obviously I wouldn't use it on the ground that much, even for reflecting, but it can do some things that shield can't do.

 

[Y2Kay]

(60:40)

I play both of these characters a lot, and I think this matchup is in pit's favor, but he'll lose if he plays recklessly and stupidly. This match will not be free, pit mains. Pit has some advantages in this match ups, but you'll mess this up if you're goofy. Here are things to note:

Angel of Preference: Ivory Pit's homing arrows are really great in this matchup as they give him a really safe way to gimp Charizard. You should sit this one out, Ebony Pit.

The Game Plan:

• Don't be predictable with dash grab: pit's dash grab is really good and he has some neat combos off of down throw, which is great for this matchup. But flamethrower can shut down all of that if you make it too obvious.

• Use your arrows: you should be camping him with arrows. Don't abuse it, or he'll try to flare blitz straight thru and punish you. Try to short hop fire them so you can avoid the arrows getting eaten up by flamethrower.

• Stay Alert!: Don't get too carried away camping, or standing still in general. Flare Blitz is an incredible long range punish. Speaking of which.......

• Respect the Zard: smash attacks, flare blitz, Fly, bair, dair, Rock Smash, and even F-tilt will all wreck you if your careless. Watch out for these specifically.

• Win the spacing war: Charizard can space you out with fair, jab, and Down tilt. You should space him out with your own fair, jab, and down tilt. This is a very crucial part of this matchup: Neither want to be grabbed by the other! Both of these characters love to rack up damage with their bread-and-butter down throw combos. Pit especially has to be careful when at kill percentages, as Zard's up throw can kill much earlier than any of Pit's kill moves (on Zard, that is)

• Get Charizard in the air: Charizard's air speed is abysmal, and his landing options are mediocre. This is where Pit is at his greatest advantage. Pit has great aerials. Long reaching and multi hit.Deny him that landing! Just be wary of b-reversed Rock smash, as that can end several strings. If you notice the Charizard player used only that option, bait it out with a fast falled empty hop, and punish with up smash, or nair / up air.

Don't Try to gimp him: Charizard recovery moves are very dangerous. Don't be a dill weed and try to hop down there with him and dair him.If you're pit, just stay on stage and fire arrows. If you're Dark pit, ummm idk, sit still and wait? You should have been Vanilla pit, man.

Stages:
Zard loves low ceilings, so delfino, Halberd, and Town & City are unfavorable. Stages with a ton of platforms like Battlefield and miiverse aren't as bad, but are not favorable. The best stages for fighting Zard is final destination, duck hunt, Lylat cruise, and smashville.

Summary / TL; DR section:
Starting the match, fire off a couple arrows. Approach Charizard with spaced out aerials. Keep him out of grab range with your arrows and disjoints. Don't go too aggro and try to bust in with dash grabs often, but don't get too campy with arrows. Punish laggy moves with your grab. Once Zard gets in the air, go all out and attack! Be cautious and respect his killing power. Once Zard off stage trying to recover, harass him with your arrows. Taking Charizard to stages with high ceilings and few platforms.

Well, that's how you beat

Doing this on a phone is really hard. I hope I educated you on the matchup.

 

[Sensane]

Don't Try to gimp him: Charizard recovery moves are very dangerous. Don't be a dill weed and try to hop down there with him and dair him.If you're pit, just stay on stage and fire arrows. If you're Dark pit, ummm idk, sit still and wait? You should have been Vanilla pit, man.

I feel that gimping Charizard is still okay if you're careful because of how long it takes for Zard to recover from flare blitz in the air it gives you just enough time to attempt a d-air spike as long as you're close to the ledge.

 

[Y2Kay]

I feel that gimping Charizard is still okay if you're careful because of how long it takes for Zard to recover from flare blitz in the air it gives you just enough time to attempt a d-air spike as long as you're close to the ledge.

If the charizard does something like, bounce off the wall with flare blitz, and you're pretty close, I guess you should go for it. Nine times out of ten, however, you're better off camping him with (homing) arrows.

 

[CHOMPY]

Stages:
Zard loves low ceilings, so delfino, Halberd, and Town & City are unfavorable. Stages with a ton of platforms like Battlefield and miiverse aren't as bad, but are not favorable. The best stages for fighting Zard is final destination, duck hunt, Lylat cruise, and smashville.

I have to disagree on taking Charizard to Duck Hunt because Charizard can take complete advantage with the tree branch thats closest to the ceiling blast zone from his seismic toss. The dog that comes out of nowhere can sometimes interrupt Pit's dthrow combos at times. Also, the ducks can get in the way when your firing the arrows sometimes.

I feel it should be 70:30 in Pit's favor for many reasons.

1) Pit has a really strong combo game where he can easily rack up the damage quickly
2) Pit has stronger projectiles
3) Most of Pit's attacks have faster frame data.

Charizard on the other hand is a slow character in the air. Sure he has a faster running speed, but so many of his attacks have so much cool down that Pit can take advantage and punish them accordingly.

 

[Y2Kay]

I have to disagree on taking Charizard to Duck Hunt because Charizard can take complete advantage with the tree branch thats closest to the ceiling blast zone from his seismic toss. The dog that comes out of nowhere can sometimes interrupt Pit's dthrow combos at times. Also, the ducks can get in the way when your firing the arrows sometimes.

I feel it should be 70:30 in Pit's favor for many reasons.

1) Pit has a really strong combo game where he can easily rack up the damage quickly
2) Pit has stronger projectiles
3) Most of Pit's attacks have faster frame data.

Charizard on the other hand is a slow character in the air. Sure he has a faster running speed, but so many of his attacks have so much cool down that Pit can take advantage and punish them accordingly.

Yeah, those sheninaningans are a factor, I didn't bring them up because of how chancey and unpredictable they are. I refrained from 70:30 because that's the same ratio as , and every Zard player with at least half of a brain would rather take Pit. Maybe 65:35?

 

[CHOMPY]

65:35 sounds about fair.

As for

Mario can be played in many different styles, depending on the player and how they play with character. Due to Mario having so many tools and one of the most versatile characters in the game. For example, he can be hyper aggressive where he can get in your face, or bait you to drop your shield and get from a randy fsmash/usmash, play campy with bair walls and fire bals all day, or play a reaction game, and even the "Mario Supreme" (for those of you who don't know what it is, its spamming Marios Up for days!) The things you need to avoid in this matchup are baiting fsmash, usmash, dthrow (for early game combo), uair, up b, bthrow (when your in kill percentage), and fair.

Mario Supreme- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kQSdBa6aFs

Neutral

Mario is one of those characters where he is a combo freak, especially against hyper aggressive players that know how to effectively extend their combos. However, they tend to lead themselves wide open and Pit can actually do the same thing to them if we wanted. A lot of times, Mario will toss out a nair/bair to hit the upper left/right corner of your shield bubble, thinking you can shield grab them, but they drift away from Pits grab range and gets hit from Mario's fsmash/usmash. That's one of the first things I've learned from fighting Mario. If Mario is a grab heavy character, just cross up nair, or toss a 1-hit jab to deny him from grabbing you. One cool thing about Pit's uair in this matchup is he can go through Mario's falling fireballs, and your able to catch Mario's landing. Keep in mind that your when your comboing Mario (Pits dthrow combo for instance), you have to play fast because Mario's nair can be used as a "get out of jail free card" to break the combos.

Being that Pit is a floaty character, he can be combo'd into oblivion for days if your not careful, or getting hasty. By hasty, I mean blindly trying rush in with a dash grab, hitting Mario on shield with an falling miss-spaced aerial. We can replace those situations with either tossing out empty nairs, ftilt, jabs, or simply empty short hops. A rising dair sounds like a safe option, but I really wouldn't recommend using it a lot because it puts yourself in a position where you now have to land safely, unless there are platforms you can safely land on.

Offstage

Mario's Up B has so much priority offstage that it would be very difficult to spike him with Pit's dthrow. From my experience, most Mario's will recover below the stage and feel immune to Pits dair, thanks to its invincibility frames. So you are better off pressuring him with nair, which can put him back and the attack itself comes out quicker and last longer than dair. When shooting your arrows, jump back to give yourself more room to aim as well as mind gaming your opponent. Even though Mario will cape, he will remain stable until he drops the cape and usually will use up another jump if he is far enough away from the stage. If Mario does airdodge off stage, thats a free gimp by Pit, due to Marios poor horizontal recovery, so you can use any aerial to push him away from the stage even further.

When Pit is trying to recover, your better off recovering from below the stage, that way Mario can't F.L.U.D.D., or cape you since you can auto-snap the ledge. I would avoid using the side B to grab the ledge (if you are below the stage, or if you are far awy from the ledge) because Mario could potentially hit you with his long lasting dash attack to pop you up in the air, and now your trying to land safely, which we'll go over now.

Landing

Trying to land against a reactive Mario is difficult. One of best things to do is quickly mixup your landings by empty fast falling and tech on the ground, throw out on bairs (don't throw it out if he is right under you, or you'll get punished for it). Never use guardian orbitars, nor should you ever air dodge into the ground, due to how much ending lag the moves have. Don't bother challenging Mario's usmash, due to the first few frames of the invincibility frames, and our aerials coming out slow.

As for hyper aggressive Mario's, they will chase after you with uairs, hoping you eventually break free and air dodge and then get spiked in the face from Marios fair. Tell me if you guys agree with this option, once you break free from Marios uair strings, do you think we could try nair? If you wanted to slow the player down, you can try to use some dancing empty dairs to deny him from using rising uairs.

Stages

Both Pit and Mario are versatile that it doesn't matter too much what stage you take them too. Depending on the players playstyle, if its a hyper aggressive Mario that loves to extend combo for days, then you should strike Battlefield, DreamLand, and Duck Hunt. If its a reactive Mario, then you can take him to stages with platforms that you can safely land on and not have to deal with Mario's usmash as much.

Overall

Overall, this matchup is not unwinnable. However, Pit has so many tools that can help him outspace and juggle Mario, and you have to play really smart and patient with Pit if you want to win. You have to be really careful and not let Mario get you in the air, as even one mistake can cost you the entire match against Mario. Just try to stay grounded against him and don't let his fast frame data get the best of you, but don't be afraid of wanting to jump for tomahawk grabs or going offstage with Pit.

I want to say that this matchup can be 45-55 (Mario's favor)

 

[Sensane]

Fair analysis with the Mario MU, but the orbitars can still help your landing since if Mario tries to juggle you and the ending lag shouldn't be a problem since Mario doesn't have a stall then fall attack to punish with. I know about the ending lag, but I try to ignore it since it has multiple other uses.

 

[Mr. ShinyUmbreon]

Mario Supreme- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kQSdBa6aFs

PLEASE tell me that is a joke playstyle, like the alpharad playstyle where you focus on getting your opponent offstage and caping/Fludding your opponent.

Otherwise, I agree with you. I've recently been picking up Mario as a secondary. His frame data is godlike. Spacing him out is essential in this matchup.

 

[CHOMPY]

PLEASE tell me that is a joke playstyle, like the alpharad playstyle where you focus on getting your opponent offstage and caping/Fludding your opponent.

Otherwise, I agree with you. I've recently been picking up Mario as a secondary. His frame data is godlike. Spacing him out is essential in this matchup.

The player who invented the playstyle is a guy in my community, named Xyless . But yeah you won't be seeing that style again xD

He actually mains Wii Fit/Wario

Anyways, we have 4 days left until tuesday to discuss about Mario, Charizard, and Little Mac

 

[Xyless]

What are you guys talking about? Mario Supreme is the future metagame of Mario!

 

[CHOMPY]

Now that we are starting a new week. I have updated the front page. Here are the characters that are going to be discussed for this week.





Let the discussion begin!

 

[Wintropy]

I don't have much experience with any of these characters, but from the ones I have fought, I can say I dislike Fox and Meta Knight and don't think Junior is much of a threat.

I've heard chatter about Fox being a difficult matchup, and while I can't personally say I agree or disagree, I'd be more leaning towards saying it is difficult. Fox is noticeably faster than Pit and can get combos going for days, especially with Pit's so-so airspeed and weaker frame data. Intercepting Fox in neutral can be tricky for this reason, so I'd advise playing more defensively than offensively, remaining patient and using disjoints to space him out. His speed and reflector means arrows won't be of much use in this matchup, so I'd advise against them.

Fox doesn't have much in the way of high-commitment moves, so he's seldom at a disadvantage even if he misses with his stronger moves - that means the burden is on Pit to play neutral well and make sure Fox doesn't get to combo us half to death. Fox can convert his quick hits in neutral into bigger rewards in advantage, so it's imperative that you don't drop your defenses or throw out unsafe hits that he can punish. Take this set, for example: at 1:50, Pink Fresh throws out an empty f-smash and Feel Tension responds by punishing him with a fatal u-smash.

On top of that, his speed and frame data means he can play the hit-and-run game in neutral, just doing quick chip damage and softening us up before he goes for the quick and decisive kill. Being naturally fast and aggressive means he can pressure Pit into only going for safer hits or being wary of high-commitment moves, so that's something to bear in mind. I think it's advisable to bait and punish here, as Fox has a relatively straightforward gameplan that can definitely be punished if we stay on top of him and don't let him dominate in neutral. Being a fast-faller, he's especially vulnerable to Pit's combos and his light weight means it doesn't take that much to finish him off when he's at high percents.

Getting to that kind of percent without being killed first is the tricky thing about this matchup, so that's where Pit's bait-and-punish style and safe disjointed spacing options will come in handy. His recovery is very easy to intercept too, so don't be afraid to challenge him if you have an opening to punish his up-b's startup. Patience and spacing is the order of the day here: don't get frustrated or let him walk all over you, just remain calm and...something something trust your instincts!

I am sorry that this is a very superficial examination of the matchup, but that's about everything I can say right now. I'd say it's a bit in Fox's favour, but nothing unwinnable.

 

[Sensane]

I've been practicing with Fox and I formerly had MK and Junior as secondaries, so I would say this:
(40:60) (40:60)
(50:50) (40:60)
(60:40) (60:40)

 

[Y2Kay]

I've been practicing with Fox and I formerly had MK and Junior as secondaries, so I would say this:
(40:60) (40:60)
(50:50) (40:60)
(60:40) (60:40)

Don't forget your explanations! Words help more than numbers!

 

[Koiba]

(50:50) (40:60)

I am rather curious on why there's such a big gap between the angel's here

Is the arms/arrows/ftilt a big thing in the MU?

Really appreciate it if you explain to poor little me~