Official Battlefield of the Gods - Pit / Dark Pit Matchup Discussion *Corrin, Samus, Shulk*

[Wintropy]

okay so i've been doing some lab work and i think i've got some good feedback on sonic. bear in mind my experience with this matchup is quite limited, so don't expect an in-depth strategy on how to win: this is just data and observations that may be useful.

sonic can play either rushdown or hit-and-run, depending on which is a better option at the time. if it's the former, typical rushdown rules apply: you want to play the neutral well and keep him out with disjoints and spacing options, while taking into account his great frame data and punish options. the advantage for us is that he has no disjointed moves or projectiles (except up-b, but that won't be used in neutral), so spacing him is a tiny bit easier than it is with certain others (hello captain falcon~). if he tries to aggressively rush into you, use pivots and retreating airs to space him until he begins to mix it up. if you're fighting an especially trigger-happy sonic, shorthop n-air can be a surprisingly good mixup to stop his approach.

that said, you will probably have to fight a campier sonic in a tournament setting. timeout rules favour the hit-and-run playstyle, so bear in mind he may try to lame you out and run the clock. don't try to chase him: he's faster than us and there's not much pit can do to pressure him in that sense. fortunately, guided arrows can help in sniping him out from a distance if he really doesn't want to come to you, and pit's grounded mobility and burst options can pressure him into moving, possibly into a favourable position for us if we keep an eye on his approaching and retreating habits. you want to get an idea of how sonic moves and how he mixes up his rushdown and poking, then respond appropriately.

arrows can be used for the above or to shoot him off-stage (very rarely), but otherwise, don't expect to get much use out of them.

jab beats spindash. if you expect him to shorthop out of it, jab, pivot f-tilt or shorthop n-air, f-air and d-air are your friends. if he spindashes and remains grounded, shorthop d-air will beat it.

remember the captain falcon matchup, and how falcon can follow with jab if he whiffs? sonic can do that too. if he whiffs a move, don't rush in to punish him. you can never get too hungry for the kill in this matchup. it will be tempting to punish him for every mistake you think he's made, but don't: more often than not, he will psych you out and then punish your punish attempt. be very patient and don't try to force advantage. your time will come.

his tech-chase game is insane: if he reads your tech-roll, expect punishment. dash attack is great at this, since he can use it out of burst dash and the lingering hitbox will continue through the getup frames and connect when you're vulnerable (it's great at catching rolls and spotdodges for the same reason). rolling to get away from him from a tech is seldom a good idea, since his burst options cover great distance and have good frame data, faster than most of our options. mix it up so it's more difficult to read and try to reset as quickly as possible.

never roll away in neutral. sonic eats up that kind of dodgy movement and you will get punished for it. spotdodge if you have to, but try to avoid rendering yourself vulnerable in neutral. pivoting is a much safer and more efficient way of getting out of sonic's range whilst retaining followup options.

don't sit about in shield either. you will get grabbed for it.

sonic's dash attack and f-smash can punish landings. f-smash at high percents can kill, so don't get baited into whiffing your landing. go for the ledge and try to reset if you have to, just don't take unnecessary risks that can get you put into disadvantage or killed.

re: damage and killing, try to catch his landings with u-smash if you can. always pummel if you grab, it's free damage you'll be happy to have. never use f-smash or u-smash in neutral, it's too easy to punish. f-throw at the edge is probably the safest and most reliable way of killing, so if you get the chance, take it.

mix up your recoveries off-stage. if sonic reads the up-b, he can drop a spring to cut it off, and it's possible to keep doing it if you keep trying to up-b at the same angle (seriously, i got about five or six spring-drops on the cpu when i was labbing it because they kept trying to recover the same way). avoid b-air wall-spike if you're on a stage with an angled underside (final d, battlefield, etc). if possible, go deep under the stage and recover from below to avoid being traced. side-b can be intercepted with spring if it hits on the armour frames; you can still make it back to the stage from that distance, but it opens you up for punishment in the air. note that spring can hit you on the ledge if you don't have invincibility and, on stages with angled undersides, potentially stage-spike. it is vital to get back to the stage quickly and efficiently.

because pit doesn't have to play one style exactly, he doesn't have any fatal weaknesses that sonic exploit, and we can adjust our options to suit his strategy. the thing to remember is that sonic is faster and safer than us in just about every way, and he can convert a small opening into big punishment without much danger to himself. it's vital to optimise punishes while retaining firm control of the neutral game. sonic can and will punish every mistake we make, so we have to play extremely patiently without letting him get in on us. safety and efficiency is the order of the day. this is not a fun or easy matchup, and i'd say it's pit's most difficult, but it is by no means unwinnable. we have the tools to beat sonic: our disjoints, mobility, frame data and punishment options keep it from being a total washout. i'd say it's a solid -2, but no more than that.

 

[Sensane]

Against Sonic, use orbitars against spin dash. It works. Orbitars are also good against PK fire with ness (and the same should apply to lucas).

 

[yoshi8984]

Alright, Ness main here. I'm not too experienced here but I did play this MU recently... It's more annoying than I expected, haha. Take what I say with a grain of salt though cause I don't have a great amount of experience haha.

- The neutral isn't bad for Pit cause "lol Magnet > Arrows". Obv a smart Pit will not fire arrows freely like that for Ness. Use them to bait out Magnets and force Ness to approach. Ness' neutral is pretty lackluster and PK Fire isn't a good option here (not even pivot PKFs) since Pit's lightweight and jumps (just DI Away and jump out) will let him escape with ease and he can punish easily by shielding or jumping over it. Ness has pretty bad approach options and I feel I'm forced to play on Pit's terms than mine lol. Pit's also got some nice disjoints and he's fairly well rounded in terms of stats.

- However, do keep in mind that Ness' rising Nair and falling Bair are usually safe on shield (unless powershielded). And he hits HARD. You'll also want to watch out for Ness' falling Uair cause many Nesses (including myself) LOVE to land with it and that tacks on some nice damage and KOs pretty damn well. Ness' Nair hits on Frame 5 (his quickest aerial) and does trade fairly well, plus it does outspeed Pit's other aerials (except for his Nair which is Frame 4 but trading Nairs isn't a good idea), so it's the main tool here. Also watch for this move OoS!

- Ness also has a nice list of KO moves that include Nair, Bair, D-Smash (also watch the trump! it'll hit you if you ledge regrab), a surprise U-Tilt and the infamous B-Throw. PKT2 can happen if you fall for the mindgame, PK Flash don't even worry about (but please don't shield it). Pit is kinda light so we can KO him decently early.
Ness can get grab setups from Jab 1/2 or D-Tilt (if it trips) and you react by shielding or just don't react. Nair can neatly cover the ledge if Pit has to recover to it.

- (Dark) Pit mains, please inform me, his KO moves are his Smashes (not sure which is best), F-Throw and I think Bair (but it requires a sweetspot)? There's also the Side B as well. Percents would also be nice.

- PK Thunder juggling isn't too reliable here due to Orbitars AND Pit (I believe he has the edge here over DP due to his arrows' flexibility) can snipe Ness with his arrows. DP could only do this in a linear manner (as in once he's on the same height as Ness, he can then arrow snipe, but if he's up high, the Orbitars would do just fine).

- Landing is HARD for Ness due to U-Smash. Again, nicely disjointed and it does KO fairly well haha. Keep Ness above you for as long as you can! Recovering can lead to a gimp for Ness due to arrows or Orbitars.

That's about what I have to offer, feel free to inform and correct me, so sorry for my lack of experience. =P

 

[Wintropy]

(Dark) Pit mains, please inform me, his KO moves are his Smashes (not sure which is best), F-Throw and I think Bair (but it requires a sweetspot)? There's also the Side B as well. Percents would also be nice.

there's pit's tipper f-tilt (just pit's, dark pit's doesn't have the same strength for some reason). otherwise you're bang on the money.

f-smash and u-smash are good kill options for horizontal and vertical kills respectively and about as effective as each-other, but both need a good setup or read to be effective. don't expect to see them in neutral. d-smash is good for catching rolls, but it's not quite as effective at killing.

gonna tag CHOMPY for percents because i'm not much of a numbers cat. either way, don't expect to be living anywhere beyond 100% or so~ ;3

 

[Koiba]

gonna tag CHOMPY for percents because i'm not much of a numbers cat. either way, don't expect to be living anywhere beyond 100% or so~ ;3

Lancer did this a while back

http://smashboards.com/threads/pit-dark-pit-wii-u-ko-s-update-1-1-0-changelog-wip.411338/

I don't really think the angels got any kill buffs recently so let's hope it's still up to date~

 

[Wintropy]

Okay a few quick notes on Ness~ yoshi8984 summed it up very well, so I'mma keep this brief and just touch on a few important points:

- Know how to react to PK Fire, just in case. If Ness throws it out in neutral, powershield. Approach with walking / running shield and be ready to powershield on cue. If you get caught in it, SDI up and back and try to jump out. It's not that difficult to avoid when you get the timing down.

- If he gets you in PK Fire, especially at death percents, expect him to rush in for the grab. If you can SDI out in time and he's still on the approach, punish it with retreating f-air or b-air to keep him out.

- Ness will no doubt try to grab you at death percents, since b-throw is one of his best kill moves. Be extra patient in neutral at this stage and don't go for unnecessary risks: try to keep him out and maintain control of your space, use disjoints to your advantage and, again, keep an eye out for PK Fire.

- I agree that we have better approach options than Ness. Ness has his scary-quick airs to make it tricky to get into his space, and PK Fire can be useful if it catches us off-guard in neutral, but we've got bigger disjoints and stronger burst options than he does, and as mentioned, approaching with shield should help neutralise PK Fire if he wants to get in the free hitstun. Don't rush right in, Ness has great frame data on his airs, not to mention he hits hard and he will punish you if you get too aggressive: be patient and force him to respect your range, then gradually move in to pressure.

- Ness's d-smash (yo-yo) animation is different to most d-smashes: instead of hitting in front of Ness and then behind, it hits behind Ness and then in front. Keep this in mind if you're used to forward-back d-smashes (e.g. Pit's), it makes for a good mindgame if you're not expecting it.

- Don't bother with arrows on-stage. You're just healing Ness for free.

- Ness is vulnerable if he needs to recover off-stage. Arrows can frustrate his efforts to connect PKT2, and in a pinch, jumping in front of PKT2 with Orbies can intercept the trajectory of his recovery. Don't be afraid to challenge him when he's readying PK Thunder, but don't get so aggressive that he rockets right into you. That's a potentially fatal mistake and is easily avoided with good timing.

I've gotten back into fighting Ness recently and it seems to have paid off. Hopefully I'm not too off with my tips, heheh~

In terms of matchup scores, I think this matchup is dead even. Neither has a distinct enough advantage to say it's in one side's favour, I think: Ness has his good offensive options, setups into killer grab and deceptively fast and deadly moves, while Pit has his disjointed space-control tools, relatively safe approach options and good punish game to even things out. Definitely a fun and exciting matchup, and very entertaining if both players know how to play it!

EDIT: Edited to correct information, as supplied by yoshi8984 .

 

[yoshi8984]

Wintropy : Just a few corrections about your write up, but I'm glad we could come to the same page.

- Ness is very fast

- Ness's f-smash (baseball bat): it's reasonably fast and punishes landings

- Ness is actually VERY slow. He's ranked 43 for Dash Speed and with a cast of 50+ characters, I'd say it's pretty bad lol. Air speed is 37th, which isn't too great either (but the air speed does suffice).

- Ness' F-Smash comes out frame 21, which is pretty slow (it's just a bit slow than PKF and PKT startup; it's about the same time as airdodge landing lag lol). And usually Ness has better options to punish a landing with, usually with Nair, Uair, (Dash) Grab or PKF.

- And since I mentioned PKF; a smart Ness generally uses it either to read a dodge, getup or landing. If you're caught in it, don't always roll away, because they can read the roll and just run and Nair it instead if he feels the Dash Grab won't connect (and Nair is the "safer" follow up).

- D-Smash is stronger when it first comes out (i.e. the back hit is stronger). And the animation makes it seem unsafe to go in and punish (it's a 14 frame cooldown after the last hitbox of the front hit), so I'd say to just respect this move. Also it WILL hit you on the ledge if you regrab or you're on it too long, and it sends you on a nasty angle. Although it is awkward when Ness doesn't connect the sweetspot lol

 

[Wintropy]

- Ness is actually VERY slow. He's ranked 43 for Dash Speed and with a cast of 50+ characters, I'd say it's pretty bad lol. Air speed is 37th, which isn't too great either (but the air speed does suffice).

Sorry, I meant in terms of frame data. Should've mentioned that~

- Ness' F-Smash comes out frame 21, which is pretty slow (it's just a bit slow than PKF and PKT startup; it's about the same time as airdodge landing lag lol). And usually Ness has better options to punish a landing with, usually with Nair, Uair, (Dash) Grab or PKF.

Really? It felt faster in my memory. Oh well, thanks for clearing that up! Still a good idea to avoid it, I know from experience that it does hurt.

- And since I mentioned PKF; a smart Ness generally uses it either to read a dodge, getup or landing. If you're caught in it, don't always roll away, because they can read the roll and just run and Nair it instead if he feels the Dash Grab won't connect (and Nair is the "safer" follow up).

That makes sense. I can't imagine it's very good in neutral, the startup and audio cue is enough to tip me off most of the time. I'd never even though to toll away, being honest, I'd just SDI and jump out instead. What options does he have to punish jump in that situation?

- D-Smash is stronger when it first comes out (i.e. the back hit is stronger). And the animation makes it seem unsafe to go in and punish (it's a 14 frame cooldown after the last hitbox of the front hit), so I'd say to just respect this move. Also it WILL hit you on the ledge if you regrab or you're on it too long, and it sends you on a nasty angle. Although it is awkward when Ness doesn't connect the sweetspot lol

You don't need to tell me, I've been on the receiving end of it more times than I can count! But yeah, I agree, it's a good idea to respect it; it's deceptive in its animation and seems intentionally designed to counter-punish approach attempts. Definitely an important move to consider, and one of the first things my training partner told me about Ness when he began playing the character.

 

[Koiba]

CHOMPY

Spoiler: Mac

() gives me problems mostly because of his super armor and alot of his moves are too quick.

And as for Little Mac....just wait until the matchup thread comes, though I'd say (55:45)

I agree with the little mac MU though, his neutral game onstage is devestating and unlike ZSS he beats us in close quarters, it's especially harder when our aerials are our main spacing tools which are kind awkward to use against a short ground based character, anything else is easily punished by mac. Get him in the air or offstage and he's obviously dead though.

Swag; anyways, my thoughts:
(55:45) (55:45)
Little Mac is tricky for some people, especially the really good ones, but we're more than capable of gimping him offstage, but we also have to be super careful and counter successfully as he is still a threat in good hands

I'd argue that Pit has disadvantage against Mac. Little Mac is difficult to space out with Pit and in neutral, I've always had a hard time with Mac, he can out-frame data most of Pit's moves. While Pit can easily gimp mac, I find it extremely difficult in the neutral. But that's me.

mac is a character that excels at one thing, and that is ground-based combat. if he has an opening and can break down your defenses, he's a demon. he will make it very difficult for you to breathe if you don't respect him.

footsies is of the utmost importance here, and it will decide who ultimately wins this matchup. mac has great footsies thanks to his frame data, burst movement options, pivot tilts / smashes and, when it's on-deck, the potential threat of ko punch. a good mac won't rush in and hit you, they'll bide their time and play the neutral, wait for you to over-commit and then punish you for it. you can't force anything and even trying to hit him straight-on can be negated by his armoured smashes and frame one invincible up-b. he will punish rolls, spotdodges and landings if he gets the chance, he's a punishment fiend and he will play the neutral for everything it's worth. that means pit has to play the same kind of game: play the neutral, keep on top of the opponent, read the openings and go for the punishes.

fortunately, pit's good at that. he's not as fast as mac and he can't convert a single burst punish into the kind of intense damage mac can, but he has two very important weapons here that mac has to respect: disjoints and grab.

disjoints will be very helpful in keeping mac at a safe distance if he tries to get in and invade your space, you can space him out effectively if you get a feel for his movements and know how he's going to approach. spacing mac is important, as it can narrow down his approach options and keep him from rushing you down, but what you really want to do is make sure he can't get a good opening to punish you. make sure you know how to autocancel your airs and don't commit to anything unsafe, just play it safe and make sure mac doesn't get too comfortable.

grab is, in my experience, the big thing that distinguishes the two fighters in this matchup. pit's grab game is great, and if you play the neutral well and can get mac in a compromising position, you can really turn the tide of the game. pressure mac to the edge and, with enough damage on him, f-throw or b-throw will make it very difficult for him to recover. getting mac into this position is easier said than done, though, and a good mac won't just camp out at the edge so you can throw him off. stage control is vital in this matchup, and mac will try to pressure you so you don't get the chance to grab. don't be disconcerted, and don't fish for anything. if you get the chance to grab, go for it - even a simple d-throw or u-throw can put mac in disadvantage, where you can hopefully get extra damage and make it difficult for him to recover. even just getting the extra pummel damage is a great help, you want to get damage on mac wherever you can, because you can't afford to get impatient and force the damage output. that will get you killed. patience is key, but remember that grab is your secret weapon, and in neutral, it is a weapon mac must respect.

which brings me to mac's secret weapon: ko punch. this move is extremely situational, but you cannot underestimate it. chances are, unless you can gimp mac before 40-odd %, you will see this once per stock, so you need to know how to react to it. if mac has the punch on-board, the entire dynamic of the game can change: now you just need to make one mistake and he can potentially convert a weak hit into a fatal one. don't give him the opportunity. how you react to it depends on what kind of mac you're fighting and what stage the game is in: an aggressive mac or a mac that's got the lead will probably try to pressure you with it and force you to go on the defensive, whereas a conservative mac or a mac that's behind will probably be more patient with it. either way, don't be intimidated: respect his space and try not to whiff anything that can give him an opening to finish you. essentially this is an extreme version of the normal neutral game, with the advantage heavily in mac's favour if he gets the opportunity to punish. mac will drop ko punch if he's put into the tumble animation, for example if he's hit with a strong knockback move or thrown, so you can neutralise the threat if you can turn the tables on him. if you've got the lead or you're confident you can bait mac into using the punch, it might not be a bad idea to pressure him back, especially if he wants to play the mind game of seeing who will blink first. this is an extreme microcosmic matchup in itself, and it comes with a high price for both sides: if mac connects, you're dead, and if he whiffs, he's back to square one. a very desperate or very offensive mac might even play to the ko punch, just biding time until they get it and then pinning everything on it connecting, so you really have to study the kind of mac you're fighting and know their habits and how they will use the move. it's a very important and potentially pivotal part of the matchup, but if you can beat mac with the ko punch, you can beat mac in neutral!

quick notes on edgeguarding: mac's very easy to gimp, in that he can't recover from certain launch trajectories, so don't get over-confident and try to finish him if there's a chance it will just help him recover (d-air spike, for example, can pop him into the air and help him him get back). mac might try to bait you to hit him when he's off-stage and try to use counter as a horizontal recovery, especially if he can't get back with up-b or side-b. keep this in mind and remember that, in this case, sometimes less is more! when getting back on-stage, use your getup options wisely and don't let mac read you. keep him guessing and try to reset as quickly and efficiently as possible.

remember that mac is a momentum-based character, and if that momentum is upset, it can be difficult for him to reset. stay safe and be patient, play the neutral and keep on top of him without getting impatient with him. it's a very volatile matchup and can go either way depending on footsies and how well each side can do to read and bait the other, so hone your punish game and be patient. float like an angel, sting like a...stinging angel!

When I'm Pit, I don't often have to much trouble with Mac if I'm really dedicated to the match and actually respect my opponent. I'd say that this MU would go in Dark Pit's favor because of Electroshock and that his arrows are more suited for ground based characters anyway, since Little Mac players don't always jump too much. A well spaced Electroshock can almost annihilate Mac at the right percents. Pit, on the other hand, has a harder time with stage control, and Mac players can pressure us to little to no end, as Wintropy stated, especially if we don't respect Mac players (which I admit that sometimes I don't XP). And because of Mac's extreme power, he can break the orbitars without even trying hard, similar to other powerhouse characters like Bowser, Ganon, and DK, but Pit can outspace those characters anyway (especially Ganon), whereas there is no way for Mac to be outspaced by projectiles, especially not our arrows. If we just bait his approaches we can get a grab on him, and I'd try juggling Mac as much as possible so that we can get some stage control. And when the time is right, use a forward or back throw to throw him off. So I change my matchup scores.
(40:60) (50:50)

i'd recommend not using orbies in neutral. the startup and endlag can be easily punished and there's really no reason why you'd use it over shield.

i don't think mac has nearly that good an advantage; i'd honestly struggle to say he has the advantage, full stop. if you respect mac's space and really commit to playing the neutral well, there's not much he can do to threaten pit's mobility and disjointed range. it's not a matchup pit should realistically be losing if he knows how to counter mac's dominant ground game and abuse his fundamental weaknesses. i'd say it's even at worst.

Spoiler: Mario

I'd say the matchup is 60:40 in favor of . He has a superior combo game, smash attacks and reflector as well as having a projectile game like pit. My strategy is to make use of our one advantage which is Mario's lack of range. Utilize nair and fair a lot and just stay on top of your mental game. Using arrows sparringly can work as an effective mix up as well.

I uses to think mario was an even mu. However after playing the mu mire and talking to other players I'm convinced its.
/60:40
in no way does mario out combo pit. Pit is floaty and has an easy time escaping combos he also has netural air to help him out. Mario has a hard time escaping pit(s) combos due to his middle weight and the disjointed hitboxes on pits aerials. Pit has better kill power and has more range than Mario. When it comes to edgeguarding that's what gets annoying for mario to deal with. Pit can pressure him towards the stage and get him of stage with f throw and bthrow which he can also use as kill moves. Pit has a better recovery than mario so he goes of stage easier. He can edgeguard him with arrow (not sure if caping them is all that helpful) Down b obituars and aerials which adds on to his better recovery.
I used to think both characters have no significant advantage over each other guess I was wrong.

Dude I know Pit is great but his recorvery isnt better than Mario's and how can Pit have better kill power than Mario?

I worded it wrongly. Pit has an easier time landing the kill since he can can pressure mario towards the stage and capatalize off of it with f throw and bair I've heard he can use dthrow as a kill set up as well.

I think you make good points however I would like to point out that Pit's smash attacks have significantly more end lag than mario's making them easy to punish. Pit's arrows also have lag which mario can punish. As a pit main I have never used my down b to recover. I guess you could use it to prevent edge guards but the orbitars also have lag so it makes it inefficient especially because you can't block attacks coming form above and below. Mario also has more reliable combo mix ups than pit. Down throw to up b is equivalent to pit's down throw to up smash with pit's probably doing more damage but mario's being more reliable combo at higher percentage. However, at low percents, mario can use down throw into multiple up tilts or up tilt into up air, down throw into up smash, down throw into nair or down throw into up air which have all been pretty reliable in my experiences in the matchup. Pit has down throw into nair, fair, or up air but down throw to up air is the only super reliable one with nair and fair being character and DI dependent. However, as you said, pit can easily break out of all of mario's combos with a simple nair due to the disjointed hit box. This last bit isn't too helpful to mario but if a mario can read a side b from pit, mario's dash attack can beat it out because the two hit boxes don't interact so pit can't get his super armor. I have had a lot of experience in the /- matchup lately because I'm training with a main and I would like to retract my original statemen as I now believe the matchup is 50-50.

Swag; anyways, my thoughts:
(40:60) (40:60)
I say this because camping is a little difficult due to Mario's amazing air speed and that orbitars don't do a whole lot against Mario and because of the Pits' hurtboxes it's easy for Mario to combo us. Dark Pit has it slightly worse since he struggles with getting a reliable vertical kill, and [from my experience] Mario often survives horizontal kills that don't kill him off.

Mario can be played in many different styles, depending on the player and how they play with character. Due to Mario having so many tools and one of the most versatile characters in the game. For example, he can be hyper aggressive where he can get in your face, or bait you to drop your shield and get from a randy fsmash/usmash, play campy with bair walls and fire bals all day, or play a reaction game, and even the "Mario Supreme" (for those of you who don't know what it is, its spamming Marios Up for days!) The things you need to avoid in this matchup are baiting fsmash, usmash, dthrow (for early game combo), uair, up b, bthrow (when your in kill percentage), and fair.

Mario Supreme- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kQSdBa6aFs

Neutral

Mario is one of those characters where he is a combo freak, especially against hyper aggressive players that know how to effectively extend their combos. However, they tend to lead themselves wide open and Pit can actually do the same thing to them if we wanted. A lot of times, Mario will toss out a nair/bair to hit the upper left/right corner of your shield bubble, thinking you can shield grab them, but they drift away from Pits grab range and gets hit from Mario's fsmash/usmash. That's one of the first things I've learned from fighting Mario. If Mario is a grab heavy character, just cross up nair, or toss a 1-hit jab to deny him from grabbing you. One cool thing about Pit's uair in this matchup is he can go through Mario's falling fireballs, and your able to catch Mario's landing. Keep in mind that your when your comboing Mario (Pits dthrow combo for instance), you have to play fast because Mario's nair can be used as a "get out of jail free card" to break the combos.

Being that Pit is a floaty character, he can be combo'd into oblivion for days if your not careful, or getting hasty. By hasty, I mean blindly trying rush in with a dash grab, hitting Mario on shield with an falling miss-spaced aerial. We can replace those situations with either tossing out empty nairs, ftilt, jabs, or simply empty short hops. A rising dair sounds like a safe option, but I really wouldn't recommend using it a lot because it puts yourself in a position where you now have to land safely, unless there are platforms you can safely land on.

Offstage

Mario's Up B has so much priority offstage that it would be very difficult to spike him with Pit's dthrow. From my experience, most Mario's will recover below the stage and feel immune to Pits dair, thanks to its invincibility frames. So you are better off pressuring him with nair, which can put him back and the attack itself comes out quicker and last longer than dair. When shooting your arrows, jump back to give yourself more room to aim as well as mind gaming your opponent. Even though Mario will cape, he will remain stable until he drops the cape and usually will use up another jump if he is far enough away from the stage. If Mario does airdodge off stage, thats a free gimp by Pit, due to Marios poor horizontal recovery, so you can use any aerial to push him away from the stage even further.

When Pit is trying to recover, your better off recovering from below the stage, that way Mario can't F.L.U.D.D., or cape you since you can auto-snap the ledge. I would avoid using the side B to grab the ledge (if you are below the stage, or if you are far awy from the ledge) because Mario could potentially hit you with his long lasting dash attack to pop you up in the air, and now your trying to land safely, which we'll go over now.

Landing

Trying to land against a reactive Mario is difficult. One of best things to do is quickly mixup your landings by empty fast falling and tech on the ground, throw out on bairs (don't throw it out if he is right under you, or you'll get punished for it). Never use guardian orbitars, nor should you ever air dodge into the ground, due to how much ending lag the moves have. Don't bother challenging Mario's usmash, due to the first few frames of the invincibility frames, and our aerials coming out slow.

As for hyper aggressive Mario's, they will chase after you with uairs, hoping you eventually break free and air dodge and then get spiked in the face from Marios fair. Tell me if you guys agree with this option, once you break free from Marios uair strings, do you think we could try nair? If you wanted to slow the player down, you can try to use some dancing empty dairs to deny him from using rising uairs.

Stages

Both Pit and Mario are versatile that it doesn't matter too much what stage you take them too. Depending on the players playstyle, if its a hyper aggressive Mario that loves to extend combo for days, then you should strike Battlefield, DreamLand, and Duck Hunt. If its a reactive Mario, then you can take him to stages with platforms that you can safely land on and not have to deal with Mario's usmash as much.

Overall

Overall, this matchup is not unwinnable. However, Pit has so many tools that can help him outspace and juggle Mario, and you have to play really smart and patient with Pit if you want to win. You have to be really careful and not let Mario get you in the air, as even one mistake can cost you the entire match against Mario. Just try to stay grounded against him and don't let his fast frame data get the best of you, but don't be afraid of wanting to jump for tomahawk grabs or going offstage with Pit.

I want to say that this matchup can be 45-55 (Mario's favor)

Fair analysis with the Mario MU, but the orbitars can still help your landing since if Mario tries to juggle you and the ending lag shouldn't be a problem since Mario doesn't have a stall then fall attack to punish with. I know about the ending lag, but I try to ignore it since it has multiple other uses.

I disagree with this as well. from my experience, this matchup is either even or in Pit's favor, spacing out mario has never been a problem for me, neither has camping with arrows. At least, when I'm not on FD. With arrow camping I can normally retreat to a platform below or above mario and escape his fireballs and force him to approach. This leaves mario in a bad position since he has no reliable approaches. I've been able to escape mario's combos. But that's just me. Also, people use Guardian Orbitars? what?

I use orbitars; I find it to be an underrated move, especially against Sonic. Also, I find your reasonings vaild, I just never learned how to escape Mario's combos.

Spoiler: Zard

Swag; anyways, my thoughts:

(60:40) (60:40)
It's easy for us to combo and gimp Charizard, and while Chari does have combos himself, we can also camp him away from us due to our superior mobility. Charizard also has a hard time gimping us. I say that Dark Pit could have an easier time killing him because Charizard is too heavy to die vertically, and while his recovery is long distanced, it's also predictable and gives us an open window to d-air spike him.

(70:30)

This is a bad matchup for Charizard imo. Zard has one of the worst air speeds in the game, and he's also one of the heaviest in the game. Combined with Pit's great range and juggling ability, Zard has a really hard time landing against him. Zard also has a somewhat hard time with edgeguarding Pit, since Pit's recovery is amazing and he's able to mix it up really well. Zard can Flamethrower the ledge if Pit is trying to recover, but it's too risky for Zard to go off-stage to edgeguard Pit due to his fast recovery and the fact that Pit can stage spike Zard. Pit can also get a lot off of grabbing Zard, since his jab is really fast and his throws can set up for some nasty strings and juggling. I would avoid going to Battlefield and Dreamland when fighting Zard, as those stages give him reliable escape options and Seismic Toss setups. However, winning on those stages is still possible, but Pit's best stages in this matchup are probably Final Destination and Smashville, due to the lack of platforms making it harder for Zard to land, as well as the moving platform making it slightly easier for Pit to kill.

This matchup is winnable for Zard, but if you're smart and give Zard no room to breathe, you shouldn't be too worried. I could say a lot of the same things for Dark Pit, but overall, Pit is better for this matchup due to his arrows covering up more space.

(60:40)

I play both of these characters a lot, and I think this matchup is in pit's favor, but he'll lose if he plays recklessly and stupidly. This match will not be free, pit mains. Pit has some advantages in this match ups, but you'll mess this up if you're goofy. Here are things to note:

Angel of Preference: Ivory Pit's homing arrows are really great in this matchup as they give him a really safe way to gimp Charizard. You should sit this one out, Ebony Pit.

The Game Plan:

• Don't be predictable with dash grab: pit's dash grab is really good and he has some neat combos off of down throw, which is great for this matchup. But flamethrower can shut down all of that if you make it too obvious.

• Use your arrows: you should be camping him with arrows. Don't abuse it, or he'll try to flare blitz straight thru and punish you. Try to short hop fire them so you can avoid the arrows getting eaten up by flamethrower.

• Stay Alert!: Don't get too carried away camping, or standing still in general. Flare Blitz is an incredible long range punish. Speaking of which.......

• Respect the Zard: smash attacks, flare blitz, Fly, bair, dair, Rock Smash, and even F-tilt will all wreck you if your careless. Watch out for these specifically.

• Win the spacing war: Charizard can space you out with fair, jab, and Down tilt. You should space him out with your own fair, jab, and down tilt. This is a very crucial part of this matchup: Neither want to be grabbed by the other! Both of these characters love to rack up damage with their bread-and-butter down throw combos. Pit especially has to be careful when at kill percentages, as Zard's up throw can kill much earlier than any of Pit's kill moves (on Zard, that is)

• Get Charizard in the air: Charizard's air speed is abysmal, and his landing options are mediocre. This is where Pit is at his greatest advantage. Pit has great aerials. Long reaching and multi hit.Deny him that landing! Just be wary of b-reversed Rock smash, as that can end several strings. If you notice the Charizard player used only that option, bait it out with a fast falled empty hop, and punish with up smash, or nair / up air.

Don't Try to gimp him: Charizard recovery moves are very dangerous. Don't be a dill weed and try to hop down there with him and dair him.If you're pit, just stay on stage and fire arrows. If you're Dark pit, ummm idk, sit still and wait? You should have been Vanilla pit, man.

Stages:
Zard loves low ceilings, so delfino, Halberd, and Town & City are unfavorable. Stages with a ton of platforms like Battlefield and miiverse aren't as bad, but are not favorable. The best stages for fighting Zard is final destination, duck hunt, Lylat cruise, and smashville.

Summary / TL; DR section:
Starting the match, fire off a couple arrows. Approach Charizard with spaced out aerials. Keep him out of grab range with your arrows and disjoints. Don't go too aggro and try to bust in with dash grabs often, but don't get too campy with arrows. Punish laggy moves with your grab. Once Zard gets in the air, go all out and attack! Be cautious and respect his killing power. Once Zard off stage trying to recover, harass him with your arrows. Taking Charizard to stages with high ceilings and few platforms.

Well, that's how you beat

Doing this on a phone is really hard. I hope I educated you on the matchup.

I feel that gimping Charizard is still okay if you're careful because of how long it takes for Zard to recover from flare blitz in the air it gives you just enough time to attempt a d-air spike as long as you're close to the ledge.

If the charizard does something like, bounce off the wall with flare blitz, and you're pretty close, I guess you should go for it. Nine times out of ten, however, you're better off camping him with (homing) arrows.

I have to disagree on taking Charizard to Duck Hunt because Charizard can take complete advantage with the tree branch thats closest to the ceiling blast zone from his seismic toss. The dog that comes out of nowhere can sometimes interrupt Pit's dthrow combos at times. Also, the ducks can get in the way when your firing the arrows sometimes.

I feel it should be 70:30 in Pit's favor for many reasons.

1) Pit has a really strong combo game where he can easily rack up the damage quickly
2) Pit has stronger projectiles
3) Most of Pit's attacks have faster frame data.

Charizard on the other hand is a slow character in the air. Sure he has a faster running speed, but so many of his attacks have so much cool down that Pit can take advantage and punish them accordingly.

Spoiler: Fox

I don't have much experience with any of these characters, but from the ones I have fought, I can say I dislike Fox and Meta Knight and don't think Junior is much of a threat.

I've heard chatter about Fox being a difficult matchup, and while I can't personally say I agree or disagree, I'd be more leaning towards saying it is difficult. Fox is noticeably faster than Pit and can get combos going for days, especially with Pit's so-so airspeed and weaker frame data. Intercepting Fox in neutral can be tricky for this reason, so I'd advise playing more defensively than offensively, remaining patient and using disjoints to space him out. His speed and reflector means arrows won't be of much use in this matchup, so I'd advise against them.

Fox doesn't have much in the way of high-commitment moves, so he's seldom at a disadvantage even if he misses with his stronger moves - that means the burden is on Pit to play neutral well and make sure Fox doesn't get to combo us half to death. Fox can convert his quick hits in neutral into bigger rewards in advantage, so it's imperative that you don't drop your defenses or throw out unsafe hits that he can punish. Take this set, for example: at 1:50, Pink Fresh throws out an empty f-smash and Feel Tension responds by punishing him with a fatal u-smash.

On top of that, his speed and frame data means he can play the hit-and-run game in neutral, just doing quick chip damage and softening us up before he goes for the quick and decisive kill. Being naturally fast and aggressive means he can pressure Pit into only going for safer hits or being wary of high-commitment moves, so that's something to bear in mind. I think it's advisable to bait and punish here, as Fox has a relatively straightforward gameplan that can definitely be punished if we stay on top of him and don't let him dominate in neutral. Being a fast-faller, he's especially vulnerable to Pit's combos and his light weight means it doesn't take that much to finish him off when he's at high percents.

Getting to that kind of percent without being killed first is the tricky thing about this matchup, so that's where Pit's bait-and-punish style and safe disjointed spacing options will come in handy. His recovery is very easy to intercept too, so don't be afraid to challenge him if you have an opening to punish his up-b's startup. Patience and spacing is the order of the day here: don't get frustrated or let him walk all over you, just remain calm and...something something trust your instincts!

I am sorry that this is a very superficial examination of the matchup, but that's about everything I can say right now. I'd say it's a bit in Fox's favour, but nothing unwinnable.

I've been practicing with Fox and I formerly had MK and Junior as secondaries, so I would say this:
(40:60) (40:60)

Fox main here... yeahhh pit(oo) kinda gets wrecked by him. Probably 60:40 Fox.
Pit(oo) rely on grabs, which Fox can avoid very easily and punish. Fox can bait them into moves because of mediocre frame data, and just go ham. Basically, the hardest thing for Fox is when he gets offstage. You have to make sure you recover well, or else you can get hit by a strong move, like forward smash. Pit having a strong forward throw doesn't really make this situation any better for fox. But yeah, Fox wins easily if he isn't forced offstage.

If the fox wants to laser camp, spam him with aerial arrows, lasers can't curve up. Arrows may not go through platforms but if there are platforms he can't laser camp you anyway. Also lasers don't stop you approaching because they have no hitstun. Utilt is easily escapable by jumping or simply mashing A, so that nair wil interrupt him and you can followup with a jab (works everytime :3). Fox doesn't have many kill confirms, especially if you know how to DI his nair and dair. I don't find fox killing me that much horizontally bar the occasional bair. I often find myself able to live up to the percent ranges where fthrow will kill at like 90% near the ledge. Just don't fall victim to his uair traps, use your jumps and airdodges wisely and you will be fine.

Reporting from the fox boards here.

I would have to say this MU is in fox's favor. His frame data and speed advantages make up for pit's disjoints, and arrows aren't as useful in this MU.

In the neutral, generally arrows are not a good option for pit because fox can shine even uncharged arrows on reaction and immediately cancel his shine into a roll or jump upon being hit with the arrow. I would advise against using these except when fox is recovering. Your auto cancelled aerials are pretty good here, as it is hard for fox to use his frame 4 dash attack to punish lag against these moves, because there isn't any to speak of. Despite this, he can still catch you right as you land if he can get in riiiight outside your range and time a punish well. Try not to land with aerials, because fox is amazing at making you pay for this. Your dash attack is really good here, as it has amazing range, is disjointed, and is hard for us to challenge. You can use this to punish laggy moves, or catch us retreating in the neutral, something that many fox's like to do in order to create punish opportunities. Try not to use too many grabs in the neutral-a well timed attack will knock you right out of the grab, potentially giving fox a follow up. However, if you see the opponent trying to shield your aerials or your dash attack a lot, they will often be caught off guard by your grab, which can allow you to rack up good damage.

Offstage play is very interesting in this MU. Pit's arrows can ruin his jump and illusion, and set you up to gimp fire fox, but smart fox's will take the arrows and conserve their jump, using the end lag of the arrows to make a quick jump+ side B to the ledge. Pit has a spike in his dair, but it is often hard to land the spike hitbox. I believe that pits's fair is the best tool here. If you catch fox really deep, it could KO, and if you force him back, you rack up some damage at worst, and at best secure a gimp on fire fox, making it a favorable scenario for you. Bair could also work offstage with more raw power than fair to secure kills, and dair is often a risk worth taking, as if it doesn't spike, it could still stage spike or hit fox further offstage.

As far as fox is concerned, pit's recovery is pretty easy to hit if he is recovering from below the stage. If you are using up-b, watch out for bair stage spikes, which could be an insta-KO on stages with slanted undersides. If fox lands a bair at mid-high percent off stage, and gets back to the edge while you are forced to Up-b, you can be killed by fox continuing to hit you out of Up-B with bair, then regrabbing the ledge and using another bair until you die from either a blast zone KO off the side, or not being able to recover. This is something that should be looked into more for the interest of both parties in this MU. You should be able to escape this by using Up-b ASAP, or mixing up recovery angles to hopefully confuse the opponent. Fox can also use his fair to footstool combo to KO if he catches pit low enough, and the footstool is GUARANTEED if fox lands enough fair hits before fast-falling. Generally, if possible, it is much safer for pit to recover with side B to the ledge here, as I'm pretty sure that fox's lasers are not an effective tool at stopping it as other projectiles are (clarification?)

That's all I've got for now, but I may add more later. My opinion is a 55-45 advantage for fox.

• Use full hop arrows. Unfortunately, Dark Pit can't really approach them properly, but Pit can get in there with ease and Fox can't reflect them in time.
• Orbitars. Use..........the...........orbitars.......I know none of you Pitties like them very much, but Fox's d-air has enough landing lag from a short hop d-air for us to use the orbitars and punish him with a grab, forward smash, or anything that comes out quickly.
• I think our side b would work against it. Other than that, just shield and punish. It may require reading depending on whether or not you get a power shield, but still.
• Once again: Orbitars! They can support our landing against thirsty jugglers. But due to Fox's falling speed, just tap the button.
• Arrows?

On a more relevant note~

Pretty interesting and recent Dark Pit / Fox matchup. Note how Crabby plays the neutral very patiently and GX2 frustrates him with the Shine edgeguard -> d-smash kill.

There's a couple of games of Pittoo vs Ryu there too, but I think Crabby gives GX2 way too much room to breathe in the final game. Either way, may be good footage to document whenever we get to the Ryu matchup~

The and MU's are difficult, but can be won. We can handle MK a bit better thanks to his slow air mobility and stubby range, but Fox is hard because he kills us from bairs and utilt > uair. That, and Fox is much faster than MK.

The way the matchup works is all about playing the bait and punish game. Not only does Fox have a faster running speed that Pit, but his attacks come out faster as well. One false move and Fox can easily rush in with a usmash in your face. GG. Fox can also camp and shoot lasers, while you Pit is forced to approach with a dash grab/dash attack. Being that Fox is a light weight fast faller, Pit can juggle him around until the combo ends.

Neutral

The way the matchups works is Fox is a rush down character that can get into your face at any given moment. Every Fox player is different, so you can't expect the same Fox player to do the same thing each time. Therefore, what a Pit player should be doing is scout how Fox approaches by tossing out empty nairs as a bait to make Fox eventually dash attack. When Fox dash attacks, you can go for either ftilt, shield grab, or 3-hit jab out of shield. Don't be too hasty with the dash grabs and dash attacks. Take your time and try to react to that Fox will do and play the game out accordingly. When Fox is trying to land, he will sometimes use the side B to avoid being above Pit. Fortunately, Pit is fast enough to be able to catch his side b landing with a dash attack. Once your in kill %, what you need to watch out for are Fox's Uair, usmash, and Dair. Don't worry about getting grabbed because Fox has no kill throws, but I would not put up your shield when your in lower percentage.

Dair

Fox's Dair comes down really quick and it's really hard to punish it, even on shield sometimes. Luckily we have Pits disjointed usmash to repel it. Be careful, Fox may use his second jump to fake you out and then go for the falling Dair to usmash for the kill. Another option we can do to punish it is using our jabs to pop him up in the air. If Fox tries to cross up where your facing the opposite side, the best thing you can do is either respect it, or use the dsmash with strict timing.


Offstage

Offstage is basically the name of Pit's game. Once Fox enters Pit's battle turf, its curtains for Fox. Make sure you carefully check to see if Fox has used up all of his jumps before firing off any arrows. The arrows can stop Fox's side B on startup, and the same thing goes for Fox's up B. Keep shooting the arrows until you sense that Fox can't back on stage, and then go for the dair spike to secure the stock. If you angle the dair hit properly, Pit could pop him up at a weird angler stage spike > footstool > dair for the spike. Also, if Fox is recovering below the ledge, go for the fair. The one thing I haven't been able to test out is if Pit could use the nair to cover Fox's side B?

When recovering with Pit, watch out for Fox's dsmash, so try not to regrab the ledge. Fox can also stage bair stage spike you, so be prepared to tech it. Most of the time, Fox could come down and fair to footstool for the gimp. Fortunately, Pit has multiple jumps and a god like recovery to negate that action.

Stages

Ideally, you'll want to take Fox to a stage that doesn't have much room to run around, like Battlefield or Dreamland. Normally, Pit can excel really well at Final Destination, but with Fox having a really strong bait and punish game along with a good hit and run game would only help Fox out. Same goes for Duck Hunt, but worse. Smashville is alright, but Fox can easily camp on the platform and drop down through the platform with either a safe nair/dair. Thanks to the low ceiling at Town and City, Fox can score kills earlier with usmash than most other stages.

Overall, its one of those matchups that on paper it seems even because people only focus on Fox's biggest weakness, which is recovering back on stage. However, when Fox is on stage, he can fake players out, juggle them for days. Pit has the disjointed hit boxes, but his attacks don't come out nearly as quick. Bascially what it comes right down to is taking your taking and not get hasty. It can be winnable, but it will be a uphill battle for Pit, that's for sure.

40-60 Fox's favor.

I've been practicing with Fox and I formerly had MK and Junior as secondaries, so I would say this:
(40:60) (40:60)

Spoiler: MK

I've been practicing with Fox and I formerly had MK and Junior as secondaries, so I would say this:
(50:50) (40:60)

It's not a big thing. Arrows don't contribute much to neutral against mk, especially when he's staying grounded most of the time anyways. Upperdash arm is definitely better than electroshock here but it's not a big difference.

Mk beats both angels somewhere between 5545 and 6040. Strong fundamental play and doing your best to avoid mks baits/punishes is how you win. Ftilt is really good against mk because it fully walls mk's approaches. Losing neutral ever is completely disastrous for pit though.

I'm inclined to agree that it's in MK's favour, for much the same reason as Falcon and Fox:

Pit can keep him out if he plays patiently and spaces him well, but MK has strong options in advantage and it's not fun to get put in that position.

If you can keep him out and make sure he's held down in neutral, it's serviceable (and it helps that MK doesn't have much in the way of pragmatic options in neutral except dash attack), but that's a pretty big commitment. Being fast, small and having great frame data and a disjoint makes it that much more irritating to keep him at a safe distance.

With Meta Knight, both Pits and MK have really good cqc. Both are really difficult to gimp, have really good air games, typically go in the air in neutral, and have excellent recoveries. What I came down to is the gimping itself. I consider arrows to be a really important factor in any MU because of how they can work. Because MK often camps while in the air, Pittoo's neutral is somewhat weakened and makes it harder to gimp MK because all of MK's specials can benefit his recovery, which is very unpredictable, so Pit's arrows can really help in reading his recovery. The arms I also consider relatively important in a matchup because some characters die faster horizontally than vertically and vice versa. For instance, Dark Pit would be better against Dedede than Pit would because of Dedede's amazing vertical endurance and poor horizontal mobility. True, for some characters, like Bowser Junior, it doesn't matter that much; it all depends on the characters you're fighting.
So overall, I still stand by my MU scores, except for Dark Pit vs MK; that one I'd have to say (45:55)

Diving into MKs advantage state against [Dark]Pit: Uair combo confirms are very forgiving on [Dark]Pit(in terms of percents and overall difficulty in following their DI), his fall speed, hurtbox, gravity and weight are very similar to Marth's. Pit is also susceptible to DA to Nado which is 100% guaranteed to get you to those kill percents.

There's no reason to go Dark Pit against MK, arrows don't impact the MU as much as one would think via text. Upperdash arm is much more rewarding, running past Mks shield and using Upperdash arm to punish his shield drop is a strong tool to have.

Against Pit its in MKs favor. MK has a clear advantage over Dark Pit however which is thankfully a general conscious atm.

Edit: I want to abandon the thought of even MUs existing outside dittos, so i edited my post.

Pit beats metaknight offstage from my experience. Metaknight can generally kill offstage using nair or bair both which have quite a bit of endlag. Metaknight's drill is also beaten by fair. Up B is beaten or can trade with fair (I prefer trading because it leads to this interesting situation where metaknight is semi spiked and before he can up b again we can throw out another fair to semi spike him again....). Metaknight can recover safely with down B but that's limited. On the other hand most of metaknight's aerials have horizontal knockback meaning we often can recover safely with side b. Just don't make a mistake against metaknight around 20-30% and you will be fine. Not to mention that metaknight dies extremely early to upperdash arm and with MK's often looking for dash attack the super armour is really handy. Also if metaknight starts his uair string try mixup your Di left and right i find it often gets me out of it, also aim for the edge of the stage so if metaknight whiffs his up b guardian orbitars can be a brutal punish

They both have great advantage states but they aren't as safe as us and can't do much to get into that advantage state if we are careful. Spacing is really helpful in both of these MU's especially in the neutral. The way I play both MU's is by starting off with a "get off me" and then proceeding to pressure them such that they don't get the chance to gain back momentum and dictate the match. I'd like to think both MU's are even but considering alot of people think otherwise I feel like I need to play more Foxes and MKs

• I don't think it's that avoidable; MK's f-smash is surprisingly safe on block due to its low endlag for a smash attack. So just try to space your side b as I think it deals more knockback and damage when it counters an attack.
• MK's u-air can only hit above him, and we're gifted with a solid short hop that naturally prevents us from getting u-aired. Use different DI every time you get comboed.
• His dash grab has a good amount of endlag when missed and can't grab characters who are short hopping, so just hopping backwards after a dash or a RAR will be enough bait. As for dash attack, it goes so far and so fast, so running away in any form won't help and side b has too much startup. It's a really difficult move to properly bait.
• I've honestly never d-air camped with MK when I subbed him, nor have I seen anyone else do so.

• This move is only punishable during start-up and you are poking the bear by attempting to do so. Don't attempt to punish fsmash.
• Everyone asks this, everyone says they have some magic way to get out but it's just not true. The only way to avoid MK's uair combos is to avoid the confirm while you are in the danger percents. Top level Metaknights will only hit you if it helps set up a confirm so... it's not easy. At top, or even high level you should honestly just accept that you will get death combo'd at least once during a set and don't let it get to you too bad, just play your neutral smart and safe and take the advantages you can get. Short hopping to avoid confirms isn't that great either, MK has a really short short hop and can easily punish a short hop with a short hop uair that will confirm into a deadly combo. In my experience, Pit's short hop dair is decent at keeping mk off you but it's pretty easy to read and punish.
• Same as how you bait anyone else, I guess haha. Top and High level mks will use primarily grounded movement tech with dtilt/ftilt/dair to play a footsies/spacing game and only use dash attack if it will confirm, dash grab reads at low percent lead to upsmash or worse things if you're below death combo percent. Can't really teach you how to bait it's just a fundamentals thing, at least it's good to know what an mk will do generally.
• Dair camping isn't strong, but using dair aggressively is pretty good, it forces tech situations and is also really safe, if the mk misspaces usmash is ok, wouldn't recommend tho, its not reallyworth punishing just because of how safe it is.

Pit(oo) wins against because of frame data and Jr.'s height and weight.

The and MU's are difficult, but can be won. We can handle MK a bit better thanks to his slow air mobility and stubby range, but Fox is hard because he kills us from bairs and utilt > uair. That, and Fox is much faster than MK.

Spoiler: Jr.

I've been practicing with Fox and I formerly had MK and Junior as secondaries, so I would say this:
(60:40) (60:40)

Again, for Bowser Junior, it hardly matters which Pit you play as. But there's a clear winner in this matchup and that's PIt. Junior has a large hurtbox, heavy weight, a powerful projectile that our orbitars can handle without much of an issue (especially since the cannonball has some ending lag), and his recovery is easily gimpable, especially if Junior can't snap onto the ledge properly. Junior's endlag in some of his moves can make orbitars a little more useful (yes, I still use them in neutral; it's an underrated tool).

Hey dudes, bjr player (best in ontario, arguably Canada but there's no good way to prove that as of yet) and tech pioneer here
/notsohumblebrag

Pit/Dark Pit has a distict advantage over bjr. Pit is just generally a better character and has the ability to drastically outmanouever bjr in neutral. While bjr will get more off of punishes Pit has magnitudes more opportunities to actually capitalize on said punishes. Lots of bjrs setups are wonky vs Pit; his weight and fall speed get him out of some mid% combos a lot of other characters can't. That's not to say bjr is helpless or anything, you just need to know the matchup well; his kill confirms work the same way as they do on everyone else.

Offstage play is always an interesting topic when talking about bjr matchups. He's got a pretty insane edgeguard game and can go super deep vs characters with hitbox-less up b's like Pit without much fear. Expect constant stagespike attempts and item play when you try to recover low.

Pit's recovery makes him semi frustrating to play against when hes' on the offense though. He can go deep vs bjr too and at low%s nair will stop bjr from getting his up b back after getting hit so the gimp potential is real. Also bjr's options from the ledge are super *** and Pit has no problem dealing with them.

I've noticed some misinformation that I've got to clarify though. I saw people talking about reflecting the cannonball and use or orbitars in neutral vs bjr and I gotta say man... If youre playing vs a bjr who is actually using the cannonball your matchup experience isn't particularly valid. Not only that, the thing is that bjr's side b has heavy armour on the bottom half of the cart, so if you sit there and reflect a mechakoopa bjr can drive right through it and speed up on you for a guaranteed punish. Reflectors aren't super useful vs bjr.

Anyway tldr; Pit/Dark Pit have an advantage over bjr. Use your superior mobility and frame data to fight him from a distance until you can close the gap and get some hard throw combo punishes.

Pit/Dark Pit win with a hard 55:45 or soft 60:40

What's happening, baby faces? Seems I've been summoned to discuss the Jr. matchup.

I'm inclined to put the matchup in Pit(oo)'s favor. Neutral is where Bowser Jr. struggles the most, and thanks to the Pit duos' decent frame data, disjoints, and maneuverability, they can consistently beat him in the neutral. At a distance you can tack on arrow damage and Jr. can't so much about it, but I wouldn't advise giving Jr. TOO much distance because then he can lay down a Mechakoopa, which he can either pick up to use like a link bomb or leave walking around to create potential combo setups. (Setting it down has too much endlag for him to use it up close without getting punished.) As @Mr Moosebones noted, reflecting his walking Mechakoopa does little good because Jr. can drive right through it for a mere 1% or so, or just wait until it's about to detonate and pick it up. (You can do that too, by the way; if his Mechakoopa is flashing, it doesn't have a walking hitbox, and picking it up resets the explosion timer.) Speaking of the kart, that's how Bowser Jr. wracks up the majority of the damage, so if you see him approaching with it, short hop fair him, as that should prevent you from hitting with it or jump canceling it. Bowser Jr. excels at going deep for kills, so a good Jr. should be able to get early gimps on the Pit duo by hitting you out of your recovery, but Jr's up-b itself can be gimped by hitting him out of it with a light hit. Both Pit's could nair him offstage and fastfall so the final hit doesn't connect, and vanilla Pit could probably snipe him with an arrow to send him plummeting, though I imagine it would depend how much you charge it for and what percent Jr. is at. Most important to note about the Jr matchup is that he gains a kill confirm at around 80-95% where he can Side-B into you, jump cancel it, Up-B, and then use the hammer swing. This is consistent and can't really be DI'd away from, so I recommend playing reeeeeeeally lame while you are in that percent range and not letting him land kart. After that point he gains it again about 30% later if he uses the slower variation of kart, but that one is even easier to avoid.

So yeah, Bowser Jr is a character who uses high damaging combos and strings to get his opponents into kill range, but if you know how to take advantage of his neutral, he struggles a lot in the matchup, which is why I think that the Pits hold a slight advantage.

Lastly, here is a visual representation of Bowser Jr's gameplan versus the Pits. This is a video of my boy Tweek, possibly the best Bowser Jr. in the world, versus a Dark Pit who goes by Solcast. He lets Tweek consistently beat him in neutral, effectively handing him the set.

Note how much damage Tweek is able to gain by landing his Kart - I can't possibly emphasize enough how important to his gameplan this move is. He can't land this on you in the air or if you shield it, so respect this move and you'll be fine.

Sorry this is such a one-sided set, I couldn't find another one of Tweek vs one of the Pits.

• Jump cancelled air dodge. It's also the safest way since I think it has a short enough duration to safely land on the ground. And if you don't grab it, it still won't hit you.
• His side b is actually surprisingly not that transcendant, so there are a decent amount of options to deal with it. Using our side b may help. Maybe even a forward smash read.
• Try to knock him out of his car with a f-air or a b-air. The car is predictable in terms of recovery Junior players almost ALWAYS recover from below regardless, so it shouldn't be that difficult to predict. Going for a stage spike will help the most.
• It's actually difficult to smash DI out of his u-smash, so just try to recover low or space a side b towards the ledge, which is how we already recover naturally.

1) you mean just jumping and airdodging immediately right? I've never heard of a "jump canceled air dodge" as the terminology doesn't really make sense but I assume this is what you mean.

This along with dash attacks are the easiest way to pick up the mechakoopa. You can also powershield it as doing this will cause the mk to stay in place for a second, allowing you to easily pick it up.

2) side b is extremely easy to deal with. I don't even play Pit and I can tell you that Ftilt, Fsmash, arrows and grabbing will outright beat it, not to mention if bjr hits your shield and tries to keep driving you then have access to nair and bair oos to punish.

3) If the jrs you're playing constantly recover low then they're not very good. It's fundamental to good jr play to mix up your recovery constantly. Grounded arrows will not do much good vs a high recovery but if you were to camp a platform and fire from above you should be able to easy snipe him out of his side b. Nair is an easymode edgeguarding tool if bjr tries to recover low.

4) bjr's edgeguard game is one of his best assets. Upsmash at the ledge is an extremely potent tool. You have to be more patient than the bjr player as he can't do much while you're still actually on the ledge. Wait out a would-be punish or bait one and then you can get on stage safely.

Pit(oo) wins against because of frame data and Jr.'s height and weight.

Spoiler: Diddy

Spoiler: Pros and Cons

Pros:

- We have a slightly easier time gimping Diddy than other characters

- We have some pretty good anit-airs to keep him in a weird spot.

- Since Diddy is a fast faller, has terrible air speed, two jumps and most of Pit's aerials have multi hitboxes, so you'll have an easier time catching his landings.

~~~~~~~~~

Cons:

- Our recovery doesn't have the greatest of mixups

- Diddy will usually have an easier time getting the kills that we do

- His onstage game is better than ours

Spoiler: Stages

Pick:

Battlefield - Pit can camp under the platform and try to anti-air Diddy with usmash and utilt through the platforms. And the banana tends to land on the lower platforms at times, so you'll be able to pick it up easier.

Lylat Cruise - The slopes can get in the way when Diddy tries to toss the banana

~~~~~~~~

Ban:

Smashville - The small blastzones help Diddy alot with bthrow killing. Also a rather small and static stage.

Town and City - Once again a rather small stage but with more platforms to work with. But the platforms don't benefit Pit as much.

Spoiler: Strategy

You really need fast reaction time to play against this little guy.
First off, you DO NOT want him to have stage control so you have to play aggressively.


Now one of Diddy's famous moves, The Banna Peel.

You want to airdodge to catch it if it's in the air. On the ground you can get it by doing a rising fair/dair. I know it's tempting to do a dash attack to catch it but is pretty unsafe because Diddy can hit you with a spaced fsmash/fair or even worse, you hit him on shield and get punished for it.
Then with the banana in hand, run, dash-dance, foxtrot back and forth etc. until Diddy drops his shield. After all, a banana can shake up someone pretty well. When Diddy does a ff fair ad you throw the banana at the same time it won't hit Diddy. So wait until he hits the ground to throw it. If Diddy tries to either monkey flip, or dash jump, jump above him and do a z-drop banana to fast fall bair.
When Diddy has the banana, don't throw out laggy moves (ex. fsmash although you really shouldn't be throwing out this move in the neutral overall) or else you'll eat a banana to the face and a fsmash/grab follow-up. Most Diddy's will stay grounded when they have a banana, so you'll have to play Diddy like he's Little Mac.

Diddy is a fast-faller, terrible air-speed, 2 jumps. And most of Pit's aerials have long lasting hitboxes so you'll have an easier time punishing his landings once you notice the Diddy's pattern.

The kill moves you have to watch out for is dtilt>usmash, banana>fsmash and fthrow.
Dtilt is frame 4 so we really can't punish it OoS. So we can either use side b to eat through the dtilt with it's super armour, or just roll behind him and do a 3 hit jab.

When your near the ledge of the stage and you're at high percentage, don't drop your shield until Diddy does the ff fair. When coming back after getting launched, just grab the ledge and return back on the stage safely to regain stage control. If you hit Diddy on shield with Pit's falling aerial, then he will punish your mistakes. Instead space yourself with a bair/fair, or do an empty land.

The way you want to edge-guard Diddy is predicting the opponent's movement patterns. Diddy can either Monkey Flip or Rocketbarrel back to the stage.
If he tries either we can use our long lasting nair to cover most movement options. If you want to edge guard him with the arrows, then do a run away full hop arrows to give yourself more space to aim and your shoot your arrows.
If you notice Diddy air dodging offstage, then go for either a bair or dair, depending on the positioning to punish his air dodges.

Overall Diddy does have a better onstage game that us with faster everything + fair + dtilt + significantly better grab followups.

Overall, if you have good reaction time, know your opponents landing patterns, great edgeguarding skills, and you know the matchup, it could be pretty close. However, if your unfamiliar with the matchup and your reaction time isn't there, and you let Diddy take stage control with the banana in hand, then it's in Diddys favor.

Spoiler: Vids

Spoiler: Pre-patch HooHah

Spoiler: Rosalina & Luma

Spoiler: Pros and Cons

Pros:

- She's one of the tallest and lightest characters in the game meaning we have an easier time killing/hitting her.

- We can contain Luma/give Rosalina trouble using our arms depending on which angel you use.

- Her recovery goes long but it doesn't have a hitbox so feel free to do whatever.

~~~~~~~~~

Cons:

- Choosing the angel can influence the match both in a good way and a bad way.

- We have to pay attention to 3 characters: You, Rosalina, and Luma

- She is light so our strings will end a bit earlier

Spoiler: Stages

Pick:

Lylat Cruise - The bottom lip can mess up her recovery very badly. Also gives the Battlefield-like platforms which is always nice for a Pit main.

~~~~~~~~

Ban:

Halberd - The low ceiling will absolutely destroy you. Even though she'll die early due to the ceiling; the positives outweigh the negatives. You can try Pit and do some usmash or Upperdash magic but for the most part you want to ban this stage.

Town and City - Definitely one of Rosalina's better stages. Platforms give space for Luma to survive, low ceiling and generally small.

Dreamland - The low ceiling and platforms combine both of Rosalina's best stages together. You can try some magic with Pit here again but it's your choice on what to ban.

Smashville - The moving platform can save Luma. Really nothing too big but sometimes but it can make a difference.

Spoiler: Strategy

Rosalina is definitely one of the most psychological characters in the game. You really need to be mentally focused and calm to fight this character. The fact about 2 characters may seem scary at first but you'll have to adapt to that. Especially since they can be at different positions in the stage.
Neutral is extremely important both mentally and in-game. If you drift too far you'll start panicking and pressing buttons before you think.
This is really bad as Pit is a very fundamentally based character. Do random airdodges and smashes and you'll get punished heavily.
So the thing is with Rosalina is you can't be super-aggro. She'll just zone you out with her tilts, jabs, starbits and Luma. Instead you want to try and play a bit patient, waiting for an opening.

Her fsmash and usmash may be great at killing, but they're not safe on shield.
Dsmash is incredibly safe but only the back hit has a chance of killing and that chance is pretty low.
Dtilt is a great poke, pretty fast and can set you up in a pretty bad spot.
Utilt is an amazing anti-air and last for a long time so be wary of that.
Her standing grab range is a bit lame, but her pivot grab range is one of the best so keep that in mind.
Star Bits are not considered a projectile so trying to use Orbitars is a pretty bad idea. This move is generally used to get you away from Rosalina or for some combos with the space duo.
Uair is an amazing juggle and kill move. Most players have a hard time avoiding death from this move. The most optimal DI is away from her and if only Luma's hit you want to DI towards her. You can and time your airdodges and not get hit by them after the up throw because Rosa's a floatiy with meh air speed. You want to be at the ground asap. If you don't Rosalina might go and try to uair you again.
Her main combo throw will usually be uthrow>uair/utilt/usmash; in which you DI away from her. If she tries usmash you can usually jump out of it so most Rosa's tend not to do that. Bthrow>fair/bair can be a combo at low percents in which case you DI away from her again. Dthrow>fair/uair is, once again DI away and you'll be fine.

Her jab can also cause all sorts of problems too.
Rapid - You can try and SDI and use our multiple jumps to get out. And Luma's multi-jab can be conceived as invincible but it really isn't. The little bit above and below he's exposed. And any multi-hit move that does 10%~ will knock him out of it.

When a Rosalina gets grabbed you really have to be wary of Luma. After all you don't an utilt to the face if you're pummelling. After getting thrown Rosalina can make Luma do any 5 aerials. They'll usually go for the frame 3 uair and nair or try and go for the kill with dair.

Offstage you really want to be wary of dair, fair, bair, and nair. Bair has amazing range and Luma's can kill. Fair's final hit has lot's of knockback. Same with Luma's dair. Her meteor doesn't come out at the beginning of the move, but a bit later. Nair is exceptionally fast and has amazing knockback to it.

The thing is that you want to scare the other player. Think about it in the Rosalina's situation if their Luma's gone.
Depending on the player they can be in panic mode right now. You can pressure them with nairs and fairs and they'll get hit because Rosalina's really tall.
Remember the big thing about fighting games is outplaying your opponent and learning. Rosalina is one of those characters that revole around that heavily.


So for this MU the angels can have some distinct differences between each other.

:
Upperdash can kill/give Rosalina more trouble because she's a floaties and they'll have a hard time landing because they'll just... well... float to the ground. Rosalina being light is another plus for the killing department too. But it's not really hot with killing Luma because of the trajectory.

Arrows are a plus for Pit because with Dark Pit's it'll usually get eaten by Luma while Pit's can curve around and still hit Rosa. Usually Rosa will airdodge, down special, or power shield but it's still a step from the ol' dark arrows. The same can apply when she's offstage.


:
Electroshock gives a 50 degree angle probably one of the best angles to kill Luma. This means you can contain Luma much more easier than other characters. But this does mean killing Rosalina is a bit harder because her recovery is pretty good horizontally. And usually Rosalina players keep their Luma close to them so if you side b them on shield. You might get punished but you can at least dispose Luma. And even though there's the new mechanics for the shield Dark Pit's arm doesn't get extra shield stun unlike other electric attacks. This may be because of some hitstun modifiers the attack has. I'm still not too sure about this actually.

Oh, but what am I saying? The arms aren't the only thing about this MU! You got plenty of options to kill Luma.

Some are:
- Dash attack - 60 degrees

- Dtilt - 55 degrees

- 1st hit of dsmash - 55 degrees

- 2nd hit of dsmash - 30 degrees

- Bair - 46 degrees (sourspot)
66 degrees (sweetspot)

- Fair if they get popped up

You also have to take into account how far the attack will launch Luma and how much damage it can do to it's health. You can check his frame data here for more information.

Now we talked about how to kill the star but what do we do after? We only have 11.5 seconds so we have to do something out of our efforts to kill it. It'd seem pointless to kill it and then do nothing. We'd go through all the trouble of the chance of getting punished hard and do nothing?
No! There's lot's of things you can do.

One of the pains that is Luma is that he'll interupt your grabs if you pummel even once sometimes. Now, you don't have to worry about that. You also don't have to worry about those surprise lunar landings. Her frame data just go to eh? tier mostly because Luma masks over it. She loses her range and extra hitbox.
This moment is where you can just breathe and focus on the fight. After all you do have more things to focus on.

But most Rosalina's won't just stand there. They'll mostly try to throw you as far away as possible/pummel, poke you with their tilts and just burn time 'till Luma comes back.

But remember the arms are still situational. Don't go spamming it and staleing it. You're most likely getting punished because of the endlag and Rosa can have some pretty hard punishes.
Really how you want to deal with Rosalina can factor in which angel you choose. Want to just decimate Luma and go for the big target then go Dark Pit. Want to just wittle her down and (maybe) kill her with the Upperdash then go Pit. There isn't a right answer. You choose what's best for you.

Spoiler: Vids

Spoiler: Falcon

Spoiler: Pros and Cons

Pros:

- Is fairly big and heavy so we'll have an easier time hitting him

- We have the advantage in edgeguarding (but not much)

- Our multiple jumps can get us out of combos and strings

- Recovery is pretty gimpable

- He has no reset switch to get out of a bad situation unlike most characters.

~~~~~~~~~

Cons:

- Edgeguarding him is pretty risky, especially since our recovery is extremely predictable

- We don't really outspace him like we do with other characters

- Extremely fast and deadly. Watch out for all his moves.

- If Falcon gets the momentum, it'll be pretty hard to get it back and vice versa

Spoiler: Stages

Pick:
Lylat - Although this is really just hoping for the jank to kick in but still a choice.

Duck Hunt - Really a weird stage for Falcon to play on. Platforms are in awkward positions for his strings.

~~~~~~~~

Ban:

Halberd - He has the syndrome where he can uair you to death. Ban this stage if it's still legal.

FD - Falcon has all the space he wants to do hos tricks. If you're not comfortable with that, ban it.

Smashville - Rather small and static stage both stage-wise and blast-zone. Falcon can definitely use this to his advantage.

Town and City - Again small ceiling and stage. He also has platforms around him to help him.

Spoiler: Strategy

This MU is really interesting. It's an MU that's driven by momentum most of the time.
Falcon has a great advantage and will go crazy with his strings if he can. You do not want him to have stage control. A well times dair can beat both our recoveries. Nair and uair has wide hitboxes to cover as much distance as possible. Bair can be used to stage-spike because our recovery just goes in a straight line. Or he can even try to go for the stylish knee.
Now let's reverse this. What if he was in the disadvantage state? Big hurt-box, fast-faller, no way to reset out of a bad situation, gimpable and terrible recovery. We can try and pressure him on and off-stage when we get the chance.

Falcon's jab is frame 3. A quick gentleman and great punish option if he's in a tight spot. You don't want to try and go for a dash grab if he whiffs a move (unless it's a very laggy move) or else you'll be eating that frame 3 jab if you're too aggressive.

Our disjoints don't really outspace him all that well unlike in our other MUs, but we can use them to out advantage. If you use them correctly Falcon has to come to you. Falcon isn't the greatest at stalling or camping so playing keep-awat instead of just head on can be a good idea.

We have average everything so we can get combo'd. But we do have our multiple jumps to get them out so that's a plus.
Oos nair can give him Falcon mains some trouble because of the pressure and potential follow-ups so keep that in mind!

Offstage is really a hit or miss. Both of our recoveries can be exploitable but ours a bit more. We can both try and spike each other since we're both pretty on par. Pit can try his arrows but it really won't do too much. Unless you burn Falcon's double jump he can usually come back. Remember he also has a wall jump. Usually you can try going for the side b near the ledge if you have the feeling that you won't tech the spike.

The angel's differences can be really interesting here. You can try going for Dark Pit's off-stage trajectory with his arm and his arrows. Or Pit with his superior off-stage arrows and more reliable killing Upperdash. Although Falcon is rather heavy and won't die at the normal percents and he's a fast faller so it'll be hard to catch him and juggle at times.

Falcon is great at taking advantage of any chances he gets to punish, so don't be in that kind of position: even if he's able to rush in very quickly, you can still retreat and hit him out of his burst options if you're at a safe distance.

Important thing is, if you get momentum going, you can keep him in a state of disadvantage and make it difficult for him to get back, and vice-versa for him. it's not un-winnable if you're behind, but it's not easy to regain control of the match. It's extremely volatile and will come down to who wins neutral and gets the best hits in first and can keep it good and consistent. It's similar to the mac match-up in that sense, but Falcon isn't as dominant in neutral and can't be killed with an f-throw at the edge.

Spoiler: Vids

For the first 6 I didn't really have the time to make summaries so I decided to put the quotes there so people can see what others said without going through all the pages for it

Of course if people requests a summary for one of them I'll do it~ :3

 

[CHOMPY]

Koiba

When you have the videos, make sure you have feature Pit/Dark Pit winning the matches.

I it looks really solid so far! Although have we ever decided on what the matchups ratios for Rosalina and Falcon are officially?

Maybe you can work on Fox and Mario for now, while we can all still discuss the Link, Sonic, and Ness matchup until wednesday.

 

[Wintropy]

I it looks really solid so far! Although have we ever decided on what the matchups ratios for Rosalina and Falcon are officially?

My personal opinion?

0 (even)

0 (even)

+1

-2

0 (even)

 

[Koiba]

Koiba

When you have the videos, make sure you have feature Pit/Dark Pit winning the matches.

I it looks really solid so far! Although have we ever decided on what the matchups ratios for Rosalina and Falcon are officially?

Maybe you can work on Fox and Mario for now, while we can all still discuss the Link, Sonic, and Ness matchup until wednesday.

M'kay then

So I'll just take out the videos that the angels lost in? I think even the ones they lost in we can still learn something out of it.

 

[Wintropy]

M'kay then

So I'll just take out the videos that the angels lost in? I think even the ones they lost in we can still learn something out of it.

I'm inclined to agree. Sometimes you can learn more by studying a defeat than a victory.

I mean, I don't win every match I play, so I don't think I'm going to get the full benefit by watching Pit win every time. Sometimes I want to watch Pit lose, so I can study what he did wrong and figure out how I can address that in my own game. It's good to be able to identify mistakes, especially if they're mistakes you make yourself.

I think it'd be a good idea to tag the ones where Pit(too) loses with a "LOSS" notation or something, just so people don't watch it expecting a go-to matchup strategy guide. It sounds counter-productive, but I definitely think it'd be healthier for both matchup discussion and the overall meta.

I'unno man, just my two cents. I don't want to be putting more work on Koiba's shoulders either, so it's up to her, heheh~

 

[Y2Kay]

I think we should have a video of a pit winning and a pit losing. An example of what to do and then what not to do would provide the most learning IMO

 

[CHOMPY]

Under the videos, maybe what we should do is point out some of the things they did right as well as pointing out the mistakes they made.

 

[Y2Kay]

Under the videos, maybe what we should do is point out some of the things they did right as well as pointing out the mistakes they made.

Sounds like a plan, then! go for it.

 

[Sensane]

Can't wait for the videos; also, here are my opinions:

(50:50)
(45:55) (maybe even)
(60:40)
(50:50)
(60:40) (50:50)

 

[Y2Kay]

Can't wait for the videos; also, here are my opinions:

(50:50)
(45:55) (maybe even)
(60:40)
(50:50)
(60:40) (50:50)

Could you exxplain the ness one?

 

[Mr. ShinyUmbreon]

(60:40) (50:50)

What gives ness an advantage over Pit and not over dark Pit?
I can see where you're coming from though, Arrows are less useful against ness because of the PSI magnet and electroshock can put Ness offstage, where we can gimp him with either Orbitars or other means. But I disagree with Pit losing to ness and Dark Pit going even. But I can agree that Pittoo is a better choice.

 

[Koiba]

Under the videos, maybe what we should do is point out some of the things they did right as well as pointing out the mistakes they made.

Should we do it here or make a new thread? If we did it here I have a feeling it'd get a bit messy.

'Cause I'm not the best at critiquing others

 

[Sensane]

What gives ness an advantage over Pit and not over dark Pit?
I can see where you're coming from though, Arrows are less useful against ness because of the PSI magnet and electroshock can put Ness offstage, where we can gimp him with either Orbitars or other means. But I disagree with Pit losing to ness and Dark Pit going even. But I can agree that Pittoo is a better choice.

At no point did i say that ness had an advantage over pit. I said that pit had an advantag over ness. I fail to see how you got it mixed up.

Could you exxplain the ness one?

It's because orbitars are super useful against pk fire and ness's recovery makes him really easy gimp, easier than lucas. Though after hearing what Mr. ShinyUmbreon said, maybe Dark Pit is (60:40).

 

[yoshi8984]

Wintropy - Apologies for a delayed response, but to answer your question:

I can't imagine it's very good in neutral, the startup and audio cue is enough to tip me off most of the time. I'd never even though to toll away, being honest, I'd just SDI and jump out instead. What options does he have to punish jump in that situation?

Yeah PKF is very overrated, especially in neutral LOL. Anyway, roll is an option if:

- You're a fast faller
- Ness does an aerial PKF (if he does it RIGHT at the start of a Full Hop, he will cancel the landing lag with autocancel Dair, do a Nair or do a double jump)
- You get hit by the later part of it (i.e. NOT at point blank)

For the 3rd, let me explain: PKF traps at its finest based on where it connects on the foe's hurtbox and traps best when it hits the foe's hurtbox dead center. When you get hit by the later part of PKF, chances are it's only hitting the edge of your hurtbox.

Now, with that being said, his punishes vary based on how well it's trapping. When it traps at its finest, he can get the dash grab or just Nair for safe play. F-Smash can work as well (he'd have to walk and then F-Smash). If he suspects a roll, he can read with another PKF, Nair or Dash Grab to where you will roll. If you jump, all his aerials (minus Dair lol) could punish depending on how quickly you jump out and the position of your jump.

Feel free to ask any other things you're concerned about regarding this MU or Ness in general

 

[Seagull Joe]

vs is pure aids. can punish every single spindash/spincharge with just dash attack. has to time out to win or get a percent lead and camp hard because he can't land or commit hard. can't commit very hard either and also can't land.

This matchup is just the worst because the way it has to be played. It's mega boring. I truly hate playing it. Probably even or +1 's favor.

 

[Y2Kay]

vs is pure aids. can punish every single spindash/spincharge with just dash attack. has to time out to win or get a percent lead and camp hard because he can't land or commit hard. can't commit very hard either and also can't land.

This matchup is just the worst. I truly hate playing it. Probably even or +1 's favor.

This is........pleasantly surprising to say the least.

 

[Wintropy]

vs is pure aids. can punish every single spindash/spincharge with just dash attack. has to time out to win or get a percent lead and camp hard because he can't land or commit hard. can't commit very hard either and also can't land.

This matchup is just the worst. I truly hate playing it.

That is literally the first time I've heard anybody say that about the matchup. Very interesting to hear how people on the other side of the fence see it!

 

[Seagull Joe]

That is literally the first time I've heard anybody say that about the matchup. Very interesting to hear how people on the other side of the fence see it!

Matchup played out as it likely will at top/high level: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgC4Ank1Mk8

Note the timer. Neither character can afford to jump when the other is grounded. This matchup is mind numbing.

 

[Sensane]

vs is pure aids. can punish every single spindash/spincharge with just dash attack. has to time out to win or get a percent lead and camp hard because he can't land or commit hard. can't commit very hard either and also can't land.

This matchup is just the worst because the way it has to be played. It's mega boring. I truly hate playing it. Probably even or +1 's favor.

Pit can use d-air to autocancel for landing, and his f-air, b-air, and n-air can autocancel in a short hop. Also, orbitars help his landing, too.

 

[Mr. ShinyUmbreon]

vs is pure aids. can punish every single spindash/spincharge with just dash attack. has to time out to win or get a percent lead and camp hard because he can't land or commit hard. can't commit very hard either and also can't land.

This matchup is just the worst because the way it has to be played. It's mega boring. I truly hate playing it. Probably even or +1 's favor.

WHAT!?!?!?!?!
I have been playing this matchup all wrong then...
I've always been trying to play defensively and camp with arrows, and normally I always underestimate his moves.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Pit can use d-air to autocancel for landing, and his f-air, b-air, and n-air can autocancel in a short hop. Also, orbitars help his landing, too.

None of 's aerials force approaches as they all come out slow and lack range. has a fake neutral game at times. I don't even know how to describe it. His best moves are dash attack, grab, and Usmash.

The power within them comes from his grab because it combos into those moves. Ledgetrump bair is of course good as well.

 

[Sensane]

Dash attack is unsafe on shield and in general and up smash can only hit opponents above him, so they are not his best moves. Also his f-air is a good mid-range tool which, again, can autocancel in a short hop. Also we don't use our aerials to force approaches, we use arrows.

 

[Y2Kay]

Nah joe is right those are some of our best moves. The only thing I disagree is the range part. His aerial hit boxes on nair fair and up air are pretty meaty

 

[Sensane]

I guess that in terms of what Joe was saying he's pretty correct, but in neutral they're not really our best moves. Grab is, but not dash attack and definitely not up smash (unless platforms are on the stage since it travels very high vertically).

 

[useredsa]

vs is pure aids. can punish every single spindash/spincharge with just dash attack. has to time out to win or get a percent lead and camp hard because he can't land or commit hard. can't commit very hard either and also can't land.

This matchup is just the worst because the way it has to be played. It's mega boring. I truly hate playing it. Probably even or +1 's favor.

I agree, I don't find the MU difficult, but patience-consuming... If you play it patiently as pit then it is pretty even. Spindash is not that much of a problem for pit. Overall, I think this matchup is for pit but 55/45 not 60/40 because it is sometimes difficult to find the kill, although you can just play for the time out.

 

[Sensane]

Thankfully Pit's arrows can prevent Sonic from timing out the match. Not so much Dark Pit unless if [maybe] on FD. I still stand that this is an even matchup and I fail to see how this is difficult for some people.

 

[Wintropy]

Yeah it's interesting, different strokes for different folks I guess?

I recall Earth saying he thinks it's our most difficult matchup, buuuut he may have been saying it's just difficult to play because of how patient you need to be. In my experience, Sonic is the kind of character that will go ham on you if you give him any kind of opening. I'd have equated that with difficulty (I, too, despise this matchup), but evidently I'm just a scrubby nubby that's been playing the matchup wrong haha~

But Seagull is unequivocally a better Sonic than I am a Pit, so I'd be inclined to take his word for it. CHOMPY , fancy weighing in?

 

[CHOMPY]

Sure I'll contribute my 2 cents in.

I firmly believe this should be a -2 in Sonics favor for several reasons.

1) Pit has no realiable way to safely approach Sonics spin dash. So you wind up shielding all day until the spind dash eventually stops.

2) Sonic can easily abuse the large stages, like FD and Duck Hunt to time players out. Whenever Pit tries to over commit or even takes a small risk, Pit will get punished into oblivion.

3) The springer can really hinder Pits recovery. Sonic can easily dive down deep for a fair stage spike. Also, Sonic could use a well spaced down angled fsmash to hit Pit in the face, making it even harder for Pit to land.

4) Pit will have a difficult time landing safely from most of Sonics attacks, thanks his his fast running speed. Using the guardian orbitars will not help you out very much as Sonic could continue to juggle you around once Pit drops the orbitars. The best way to safely land is either grabbing the ledge (as if your fighting Rosalina), or find a safe area to land without doing anything. Fortunaetly, Pit can A-Land with his dair to any moves, like jab or grab to quickly respond to Sonics dash grab or dash attack.

5) If you use a move, like any smash attacks or side b that could potentially leave you wide open, Sonic can punish you with a grab, running usmash, dash attack, etc. Even if you whiffed a dash attack or grab, you will still get punished severely, so you would have to play extra cautious. The interesting part about Soncis Fsmash is he will pull back, causing Pit to whiff the dash grab/dash attack and smack him in the face with a "Pow!".

6) Pit is very limited in terms of getting back on stage because Sonics usmash can cover getup attacks, normal getups, and jump. From my experience against the better Sonic players, jump airdodge at the same time to avoid Sonics charged usmash.

7) A lot of Sonics attacks seem to barely have any cool down, so try not to get baited by his attacks.

Pits advantage

1) Once you grab Sonic, you can juggle him around for days until he can land safely. Even if Sonic were to use the springer as a "get out of jail" free card, his only options are to land with dair or grabbing the ledge.

2) Sonic has no real way to combat Pits arrows offstage, except for fair. If you land 2-3 arrows in a row on Sonic offstage, his only option is to use the springer. A well timed fsmash can seal the stock while Sonic is landing from the springer.

On stage though, his arrows are useless, unless you try to dash away with a turn around full hop arrow. Although I wouldn't recommend doing it too much as you lose stage control, thanks to Sonics fast dash speed.

3) Thanks to Pit's disjointed hitboxes, there are some ways to counter Sonics spindash, but you need to time it properly to stop it. Moves like jab, pivot ftilt, shorthop nair, fair and dair will be very useful in this matchup.

4) We should be blessed that Nintendo nerfed Sonics bthrow, so we don't need to worry too much about Sonic grabbing us. It is still Sonics best kill throw, but we can DI the bthrow and survive for a really long time if you play the matchup safely.


What not to do against Sonic

-Falling aerials are what Sonic players strive for.
-Throwing out usmashes and get his in the face with a bair. If Sonic airdodges Pit's usmash, Sonic can safely hit him with a bair.
-Using arrows on stage
-Using guardian orbitars to land
-Don't get hasty with your dash attacks, grabs, smash atttacks, etc.
-Normal getups are definitely a no-no in this matchup. Same goes for getup attacks and jump above stage.
-Take him to Duck Hunt, or Final Destination
-When you see Sonic tossing out empty hit boxes, don't get baited, unless your confident that Pit can safely land a hit.

The matchup is usually defined on the players play style. An agressive Sonic will lose to a patient Pit. However, a patient Sonic can pretty much beat Pit, unless you manage to outplay Sonic and figure out their movement patterns. Every players playstyle is different. In general, I would say Sonic can overwhelm Pit with no room to breathe as well as playing a good hit and run game.

 

[Sensane]

Yeah, orbitars can be a really bad landing idea against Sonic since his u-air can autocancel in a short hop after the final hit. However, orbitars can hinder the spin dash because it's almost like the spin dash is hardly moving anywhere, which will force the Sonic to either use a slower spin dash (which is easy to punish), spin shot, or just run up normally.

I honestly disagree about not taking Sonic to FD he can't land anywhere when juggled. Also he'll have a harder time killing you because of how far away the blast zones are, so he'll have to use a b-air to reliably kill us, hope for a read, or rack up to insanely high percents and hope his back or forward throws can kill.

 

[Blue Banana]

Hi, the Olimar board is now discussing the Pit/Dark Pit matchups. Any input is appreciated.

 

[Sensane]

Okay, here are my two cents on the Sonic MU:

I still stand that this is 50:50 between the two.

First off, if you can get him in the air, then you can juggle Sonic around for days, as previously mentioned, but sometimes a Sonic will attempt to use spring jump to try and land safely. When this happens, play mind games with arrows, or just shoot one in the air, but mix it up. Or you could try to jump in the air quickly so that you can catch up to him. The distance is shorter than in Brawl, and because we have three midair jumps, this shouldn't be too bad for us to do as long as the spring doesn't hit us (try using a grounded double jump (pressing a jump button and then up on the joystick at the same time (assuming you have tap jump on)) and then an air dodge immediately after). If the Sonic doesn't try to d-air towards the ground, then they will try to attack you with another aerial. This is a good opportunity to gimp with orbitars to potentially earn a free kill if near the ledge since when an aerial hits the orbitars, that character will go flying a good distance. You could also bait a Sonic into using a spring jump by jumping up when the Sonic hasn't used a spring jump yet. After this, the Sonic will either go to the ledge or d-air. If he d-airs, it's not that transcendent at all, so an u-smash should be an optimal punish. This is probably your best punish anyway because d-air can autocancel at the end of the move depending on where Sonic is on the screen. If it doesn't autocancel, then anything is fair. If the Sonic goes for the ledge, play a ledge trump game as ledge trump b-air is very powerful.

Orbitars can also help against a spin dash as it can slow down its approach. Then Sonic should go into a laggy animation shortly after which when timed correctly, should give us a free punish. Not so much a f-smash (unless if you want to put up with stricter timing) but we could use a grab, tilt, or jab, which will rack up damage easily. Seriously, orbitars can be very helpful in a matchup; I don't understand why you other Pit mains hate them so much, but I digress.

Despite how underrated I find the orbitars, I still take into consideration what CHOMPY said earlier: don't use them for landing. Here you can be easily baited into an u-smash or other optimal punish. Use orbitars more offensively rather than defensively.

Other ways to punish a spin dash/charge is by using a dash attack or a side b if timed properly. Also, arrows would normally clank with a spin dash, but I think Dark Pit's arrows would have some transcendent priority when charged. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Sonic can also try to juggle you himself. When thrown into the air, your best defense is an air dodge. Don't bother jumping unless if Sonic already used a spring (which even then, watch out for u-airs). If you can, counter with a n-air as it's on par if not faster than most of Sonic's aerials. Speaking of which, watch out for Sonic's f-air as Pit is tall enough to be caught in a f-air string which is a zero-death true combo on some characters. U-airs are just as deadly because, especially on stages with low ceilings (most notably halberd), it can lead into a true combo kill before 100%.

Also, while you should play more offensively, don't get careless. By that I mean don't get grabbed by Sonic because down throw can tech chase, up throw is his best combo throw, and while back and forward throws aren't as useful as other kill throws in the game (it still agitates me that they nerfed Sonic's back throw but not Mario's or Ness's), they can still kill at respectable percents, especially with rage. If Sonic uses down throw, NEVER TECH ROLL AWAY OR TECH ON SPOT because Sonic can lead into a dash attack immediately after. If you can, DI up as the hitstun should normally wear off and give you multiple safe options, like a-landing with d-air or jumping away/towards Sonic. Sonic's down tilt can also lead to tech chase opportunities at higher percents, which can potentially lead into an u-smash read and grant him a kill. At low percents, down tilt has a chance to trip which for some reason is random (or has a specific positioning that is too difficult to explain let alone see) and can give Sonic a dash attack followup. Dash attack is one of Sonic's best moves, but just treat it like any other dash attack and punish accordingly. Also, this shouldn't be a bother for us but I want to make a quick note that back throw into dash attack is a decent mixup at 0%, but I can only see this being useful against fast fallers and it requires proper reading anyway .

Our f-air should also be an issue for Sonic when properly spaced as aerials that last long can hurt Sonic's approach, especially ones with a lot of range like ours. N-air is also a decent option for similar reason and autocancels at around the same time. When Sonic is spin dashing at you and you're in your shield, a Sonic will almost always jump up and try to cancel with an aerial (even I do this sometimes). Unfortunately we can't u-smash out of shield like what we normally would, but it all depends on what the Sonic does after spin dash hits our shield. He can either jump away accordingly or go into a spring jump. If he spring jumps, refer to what I said about this. If he doesn't, then we do have a shot at an u-smash out of shield, but spin charge in the air is a multi-hit move, which unfortunately will cause a ton of shield pressure. But normally a Sonic player will come at you with side b so eh.

Take Sonic to FD since there are no platforms. I fail to see why a Sonic player would have an advantage at FD rather than....anywhere else. While Sonic can camp on FD, you know who else can camp on FD? Every character with good mobility and/or a solid projectile. I'm not much of a camper when using Sonic, so I have yet to win a match on FD with him. Smashville is a good place to take Sonic to, but be aware of the platform's position, but thankfully our u-smash can pass through the platform so really all it does is just give us less options to punish. Lylat isn't to bad of a place to go either since the platforms are around the same height as the ones on Smashville for us to punish. Do not take him to Duck Hunt, Battlefield, Dreamland, or Halberd. The former three have high platforms for Sonic to retreat to and the latter has such a low ceiling that Sonic can use up throw->spring jump->u-air for a true combo kill at around 60-70%. That and if the laser is targeting Sonic, he can try to throw you off the stage and camp by the ledge, escape it in time with up b, and make us suffer a ton of damage. Plus when you think about it Sonic can camp a lot better on those stages (except Halberd) than FD anyway.

Overall, when against a Sonic, play aggressively. We have the tools to counter some of Sonic's, but the same applies for him depending on the stage. So I call this one a 50:50 even MU. CHOMPY and Wintropy get gud lol.

 

[Y2Kay]

So.....who are we gonna discuss next?