Official Battlefield of the Gods - Pit / Dark Pit Matchup Discussion *Corrin, Samus, Shulk*

[Sensane]

umm just because you played a Jigglypuff that didn't know how to recover well doesn't mean she's easy to gimp .______.
(I mean I get your point, of course she's not LITERALLY ungimpable, just really hard to gimp)

I know, I was just trying to be a smart***. She is overall hard to gimp.

 

[Koiba]

One more thing, can you be even more of a dear and send me the rest of the matchup notes you've compiled in one mega-post? Then I can put the whole thing in the OP in one go.

I don't really understand this :C



Praying that this'll work~

Spoiler

[SPOILER="Peach"]
[SPOILER="Quotes"]
[QUOTE]
I faced a Peach player today and I realized how much the orbitars can hurt her. Peach is pretty reliant on her air game and the orbitars are very pushy against characters with air games, with Peach probably being the weakest against them (either her or Jiggs). I can't help but say that we have the advantage. Not only that, but we can kill her with relative ease. Due to her trouble landing, u-smash is also really dangerous against her. The best tool she has against us is her comboing (which again is still weak against orbitars outside of grabs and if she has a turnip) and her platform utility. Her recovery is also easy for us to edgeguard with arrows, orbitars, or aerials. This may sound like a bunch of simplifications but I can't help but say we have the advantage in this MU. Obviously her combo game is still something to be feared and turnips can be a nuisance at times, but aside from that there's not much she can do against us.

:4pit::4darkpit:(65:35):4peach:[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]I played the peach MU the other day and find it annoying actually. Her float really disrupts my strings and juggles. And that fair hurts so much.

I haven't used orbies on her tho.

:150:[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]So I'm going to throw in my 2 cents here on these 3 matchups.

Peach is a definite +1 matchup for Pit, in my opinion.  Peach has a hard time landing against Pit, because Pits uair beats out Peach's dair.  The combo game is also in Pits favor, because Peach's floatiness makes her pretty easy to combo, and Pit can jump out of most of Peach's combos easily.  The main thing is to watch out for Peach's fair and any potential jank from her turnip pulls.
[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]
Before we close out the matchups, does anyone have an objection on these matchup ratios below?
:4peach: +1
[/QUOTE]
[/SPOILER]
[SPOILER="Vids"]
[SPOILER="Customs On"]
[MEDIA=youtube]id=qZurb4avSpg;m=2[/MEDIA][/SPOILER]
[SPOILER="Customs Off"]
[MEDIA=youtube]gfrUKJtpejo[/MEDIA]

[MEDIA=youtube]vexKqlZy-pE[/MEDIA]

[MEDIA=youtube]IJ5SRGD1E1Y[/MEDIA]

[MEDIA=youtube]rFFnGZMQVVE[/MEDIA]

[MEDIA=youtube]Q4L5t13Ma3M[/MEDIA]
[/SPOILER][/SPOILER][/SPOILER]

[SPOILER="ROB"]
[SPOILER="Quotes"]
[QUOTE]Now let's move on to the matchup discussion at hand. I have a little experience with the R.O.B. matchup. I've struggled with it for a while but after getting the hang of it I'd say it's +1 for us. This is why: :4rob:is a bit faster than us frame data-wise but can't do much damage to us up close so he will favor camping with projectiles. :4rob: has a great projectile game with top and laser the latter of which can be angled in pretty much any direction. He will use his projectiles to rack up damage and then come in with his smashes to finish the job or just keep camping and kill with a fully charged laser. ROBs generally start with the top so they can keep you away while they charge their laser. You want to be aware of this and keep your distance at first and try to bait out the top. When the top comes out you have 2 options: pick up the top or continue the projectile game. If you go for the top, you can throw it back at him and use it as and use it as an oppertunity to apply preassure up close. This is :4rob:'s fatal flaw is that he is big and pretty heavy(10th heaviest in the game) so he's combo food. If we can get him in the air we have a greater advantage because :4rob:'s aerials are really slow except for his fair but our nair comes out faster so it's perfectly fine. Back to the top, if you go for it enough, the :4rob: player will catch on and immediately fire a laser angled at the ground. Unfortunately we can't reflect it because it's angled so it won't hit :4rob: but what we can do is keep our distance so if :4rob: angles the laser at the ground it will miss us since it will bounce upward. However, you have to be careful in case he fires the laser straight in which case you have to reflect. Try pretending to go for the top giving :4rob:an incentive to angle the laser and then spot dodging or power shielding once it comes out. You don't want to roll away because if :4rob:is close enough it will give him time to regrab the top. An extended dash dance might work but Pit's isn't that great so I wouldn't recommend it. You could also stay back and camp with arrows giving rob an incentive not to angle his laser and then reflect it. All of that said once you've avoided the laser simply grab the top and get in close just like before. Always keep in mind though that :4rob: has a frame 3 jab and down tilt and might use it when you get in close but if you can predict when he'll use it you're fine.

Edge guarding is pretty straight forward. :4rob:'s up B has no hit box so you're gonna want to go for an off stage aerial

Another thing you can do is camp with arrows to bait out a side b from :4rob:. It reflects but has terrible end lag so it's easy to punish. I hope all this helps[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]It's pretty inconsistent when flying diagonally. Sometimes it works, other times it doesn't. Otherwise you'd have to sweetspot the ledge, which can be pretty difficult to do since there is a very precise window. And remember, the gyro can really hurt our recovery depending on where we are on the stage. Though if we roll onto the stage, the gyro won't pressure us as much.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]The orbitars are surprisingly effective against ROB's u-air.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]I have a couple things to say about the ROB mu:

Placing a gyro at the ledge of the stage might not be as threatening as it looks. I've rolled onto the ledge with no issue. Of course rolling onto the ledge may get us punished with a f-smash from ROB, but then again how deadly are any of his punishes are in this scenario? The most he could do is launch us a good distance away, but it won't really do much. Maybe jumping from the ledge and then [maybe] using orbitars would work. Speaking of orbitars, you can use them to land against ROB's u-air since his u-air will just flail when hitting our orbitars and we'll land safely afterwards. Also something else I noticed about orbitars in general is that you can move around in the air with them. They're very good against ROB since none of his aerials autocancel reliably, so landing without a gyro will be difficult for him. Just a couple notes I've taken in the MU. I remember playing against a ROB player at an Anther's Ladder tourney a few weeks ago and my pits did well against him. I switched to Pit assuming the MU would go better since he rekt my Sonic in the first match and sent me to losers. But then he got kicked down to losers and in the losers finals I switched to Pit and Dark Pit simultaneously and won the set. They were some really good games in the tourney.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]Well, ROB can easily upsmash you if you roll, and that kills... a lot.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]Actually unless if his timing is perfect we should have just enough time to shield his u-smash. If not then he may be too early and the u-smash will whiff and miss.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]Then you're probably to impatient with rolling from the ledge. Also, have you tried jumping from the ledge? I clearly stated that that's another viable option against a gyro.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]You get hit when jumping. I find the best to drop jump and press grab to get the gyro and inmediately throw it. If you airdodge you land with lag.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]
Before we close out the matchups, does anyone have an objection on these matchup ratios below?
:4rob: -1[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]I don't quite agree with ROB being a -1. Orbitars can help against the u-airs, but then again they can easily bait you into sending them out and punishing, but I say that it's an even MU since we can combo him hard.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]Hi guys, looks like I've been summoned. I used to beat Chompy in this match up often until recently when I was 2-0'd I used to think that ROB wins the match up solidly but I think it's even. I think Pit can combo and frame trap ROB at any %. I still think ROB outcamps him but if you're good at power shielding (which you should be) it gets really difficult for ROB to keep Pit away and stop him from grabbing him.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]So I'm going to throw in my 2 cents here on these 3 matchups.

I believe that the ROB matchup is a +1 in Pits favor.  ROB is combo phodder, and is pretty easy to edgeguard.  And something to keep in mind is that his gyro on the ledge is just as effective on every other character as it is on Pit, so if it was an unbeatable strategy, he'd be considered top tier or at least much better.  My advice in the matchup is to keep the pressure on ROB as much as possible and try to keep ROB in the air (I wouldn't take this too seriously, because I have very, very little experience in this matchup).

Out of these 3, Game and Watch is probably the worst matchup for Pit.  That being said, I still think it's a +/-0.  G&Ws edgeguarding skills are effective against Pit and he is almost impossible to edgeguard.  Also, Pit is comboed pretty heavily by G&W, and he has a lot of trouble landing.   That being said, Pit does have a couple positive tools in this matchup.  Pit is much faster than G&W, which make a rush-down playstyle effective.  And if you don't feel confident about that, Pit's footsies in neutral are better than G&W, because his tilts are faster and have more range.  Also, G&W is light.  Like, really light.  Pit has no trouble killing in this matchup (I've even killed a G&W at 80% before).  And early kills like that can really shift the tide of a match on your favor.

My recommendation in the matchup against all these characters is to just play aggressive, keep the opponent in the air, and then try to read an air dodge to get a kill.[/QUOTE]
[/SPOILER]
[SPOILER="Vids"]
[SPOILER="Customs On"]
Nada[/SPOILER][SPOILER="Customs Off"]
[MEDIA=youtube]nLndfUKTOXk[/MEDIA]

[MEDIA=youtube]oCsV3gSmWV8[/MEDIA]

[MEDIA=youtube]w2XDRwyC-ho[/MEDIA]

[MEDIA=youtube]id=EXFLrbkl6Eg;m=3;s=32[/MEDIA]

[MEDIA=youtube]TECDMVySDqw[/MEDIA]

[MEDIA=youtube]1lpaXYpoLN0[/MEDIA]
[/SPOILER][/SPOILER][/SPOILER]

[SPOILER="Game&Watch"]
[SPOILER="Quotes"]
[QUOTE]I played a GnW today. That dash attack and Up smash is annoying! Makes it kinda hard to land.

:150:[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]We've been discussing Peach and Rob a lot but does anyone know anything about the game and watch matchup? To be honest. I haven't played a decent G&W since I stoped playing for glory regularly but I'd give us a solid +1 on the matchup. I never had much trouble with him. You just have to be careful not to camp so much with arrows.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]Yeah not sure why people wanted G&W at first; really only GimR plays him consistently and Anther's Ladder is certainly not helping me with the MU since no one there plays him.

In theory we could use uncharged arrows as bait and come in with a punish due to the end lag of the bucket, plus the oil spill really isn't going to kill us anyway.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]I find the gaw mu -1 or even. His dash attack, upsmash, dtilt and bucket are really good moves; and the fact that he combos us hard but we can't combo him because his floaty makes it really hard.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]We actually don't have trouble with comboing him at all, and have you ever tried baiting his bucket? It has a ton of end lag which gives us an opportunity to punish. His dash attack can get annoying but is really not a bother and it's the same with d-tilt, only that move is unsafe on shield. We can also kill him very easily due to his weight, especially with a smash attack. Also, his bucket isn't that fatal against us at all since our arrows make the oil spill a fairly weak attack.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]Game & Watch is an interesting character to fight against. Try to sweet spot the ledge. Otherwise, you could get stage spiked by Game & Watch's dash attack (similar to how Marios dash attack functions). When it comes to G&W's uair, respect it and land safely as far away from G&W as possible. Airdodging won't really help you out, since the uair comes out quick and they can still stall you in the air. Once G&W stalls you in the air, respect it until your getting closer to the ground. Watch out for his key (dair), as it can potentially spike you (if sweetspotted) on the stage. Of course, G&W has his dthrow combos, so be wary of that as well. What the matchup comes right down to is a spacing game. If you can out space G&W and bait out his attacks, you should be able to win the match. Don't bother pressuring G&W offstage with arrows, thanks to the bucket. Most of the time, your going to want to stay grouded because G&W has a terrible ground game, but in the air, G&W is far superior due to having a ton of range and excellent air speed. Carefully look at their movement patterns and you should be able to catch their landings with your usmash, or uair/fairs. When recovering, mix it up by grabbing the ledge diagonally, so Game&Watch can't drop down and stage spike you with the turtle (bair). Also, I reccomend going under the line of the ledge with the side B to avoid the nasty range G&W's fsmash has.

As Viridi would say, "Watch out for the #9, Pit". ;)

After playing with some of the G&W players in my region, I want to say the MU is 55:45 Pit's favor.

:4gaw: 55:45[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]
Before we close out the matchups, does anyone have an objection on these matchup ratios below?

:4gaw: +1
[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]So I'm going to throw in my 2 cents here on these 3 matchups.

Out of these 3, Game and Watch is probably the worst matchup for Pit.  That being said, I still think it's a +/-0.  G&Ws edgeguarding skills are effective against Pit and he is almost impossible to edgeguard.  Also, Pit is comboed pretty heavily by G&W, and he has a lot of trouble landing.   That being said, Pit does have a couple positive tools in this matchup.  Pit is much faster than G&W, which make a rush-down playstyle effective.  And if you don't feel confident about that, Pit's footsies in neutral are better than G&W, because his tilts are faster and have more range.  Also, G&W is light.  Like, really light.  Pit has no trouble killing in this matchup (I've even killed a G&W at 80% before).  And early kills like that can really shift the tide of a match on your favor.

My recommendation in the matchup against all these characters is to just play aggressive, keep the opponent in the air, and then try to read an air dodge to get a kill.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]Well said I agree with all of this. One question I would like to ask not to you specifically but to everyone. Should we consider giving Dark Pit the +1 in the Game and Watch matchup because of the extra kill power? With the buff Electro shock can kill G&W as early as 50%(assuming rage, freshness and no/poor di) with consistent kills most likely at 75% and above. Pit's arrows won't be too helpful vs G&W because of the bucket so for once I think Dark Pit has the advantage.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]No.

1. Because for the hundredth time the bucket has enough end lag for us to bait it and punish and even so, THE ARROWS IN THE BUCKET AREN'T STRONG ENOUGH FOR US TO DIE FROM THE OIL SPILL!!!!!! I am so tired of having to say this with no one understanding the world's simplest concept of bait and punish, and Pit is good at that against G&W. One thing to do is maneuver the arrows around G&W at close range which will force him to deploy the bucket; it takes nearly a second and a half for him to put the bucket away, and it takes longer on the ground.

2. Upperdash is still a viable kill option, not as early as Dark Pit, but still in general.[/QUOTE]
[/SPOILER]
[SPOILER="Vids"]
[SPOILER="Customs On"]
Nada[/SPOILER]
[SPOILER="Customs Off"]
[MEDIA=youtube]geZjLeloEOg[/MEDIA][/SPOILER][/SPOILER][/SPOILER]

[SPOILER="Palutena"]
[SPOILER="Quotes"]
[QUOTE]Good choices. Can't say much for Villager, but I know a few Rosalinas and dabble in Palutena, so here's what I think:

:4palutena:

- Palutena's neutral is straightforward but reasonably effective. She will try to space and poke with f-air, b-air and dash attack, occasionally throwing in jab as a mixup. She has good run speed and burst options out of dash (b-air and dash grab especially). She wants to get the grab, as that is the crux of her gameplan: she will turtle if she needs to and respond to pressure with invincible b-air and dash attack, then jab or grab at openings to catch us.

- Jab confirms into grab if it connects. Jab is f8, not the fastest, but it's disjointed and is an effective mixup if she has conditioned you to approach carefully in neutral. Multi-jab is good for catching rolls and spotdodges, but does not confirm into grab.

- Grab, dash grab and pivot grab are all effective options in neutral. She will often punish with grab in neutral if she can. She doesn't have the fastest grabs, but they have good range and set up for a variety of followups.

- She can use just about any aerial out of d-throw, depending on percentage, rage and DI. B-air and u-air can both kill, so try to avoid those with DI if possible. If you have to get hit by something (and you quite often will), try to DI away from her so she can only use f-air or n-air: it will do some damage, but it won't kill you. If she reads that you will DI away or airdodge immediately after d-throw, she can followup with (running) u-smash - this is very rare, but possible if you don't mix up your reaction to d-throw.

- Try to avoid getting grabbed wherever possible, but understand that it's a fundamental part of her gameplan and a good Palutena will know how to read and condition you to get the grab whenever it's a viable option.

- Her edgeguarding is decent too, with n-air and b-air both potentially setting up for wall spikes, u-air trading with most options and d-air having a spike hitbox (albeit for one frame). She can't go too deep to edgeguard, but her disjointed moves and intangible recovery mean she isn't at too much of a risk if she tries to intercept Pit's easily-traced recovery.

- If you're off-stage and especially if you're trying to recover, watch out for her ledge-cancel: it can set up for a d-air spike or other shenanigans and is an effective mixup option on stages with platforms.

- Her options in neutral are quite fast and can be pressuring, so don't try to force anything you're not comfortable with. Most of her grounded moves have good startup but noticeable endlag, so don't be afraid to punish with dash attack or other quick, non-committal moves to make things difficult for her. Try to use safer moves so you don't get baited and punished (dash attack, d-tilt, autocanceled aerials, etc) and mix it up so she can't respond effectively every time. Side-b is a good mixup option if she is being too aggressive or unsafe, but otherwise I would save it as a Hail Mary or for catching landings and punishing smashes.

- Beyond her neutral game, she doesn't have much to threaten us. Her advantage is so-so at best, with only a handful of moves really being effective to pressure or kill (b-air and u-air especially, the latter can make it difficult to land with Pit's poor airspeed), and she otherwise struggles to get the kill: with no reliable confirms except a possible d-throw followup in b-air or u-air and laggy, punishable smashes, she will have to work hard to seal the stock. The options she does have (smashes, dash attack, b-air and u-air in neutral / advantage) are very powerful and shouldn't be disregarded entirely, but you should never feel helpless against them either: not having good confirms means she only so many options to really threaten your stock, everything else is avoidable with patience and effective play.

- She doesn't have much options to reset to neutral, except for her invincible f8 b-air and possibly Warp, so don't be afraid to press home the advantage if you can. She should not try to land safely, because that can be punished with Pit's u-smash, and will instead either try to push you back with her aerials or Warp to safety. If she can Warp onto a platform, she can ledge-cancel to quickly reset.

- Edeguarding is a bit trickier, since she can just Warp back to the edge if she gets an opportunity, but pushing her out can make it difficult or impossible for her to recover. Again, b-air and u-air, but Orbitars may be useful in this matchup if she tries to pressure you right back and has the potential to push her out where she can't recover.

- Play a steady game and don't get too hungry for the kill: while Palutena doesn't have the best kill options or setups, she is good at punishing mistakes and can play a good defensive game if you let her. Try to keep the pressure on her without getting too aggressive and remember that our punish options are just as good as hers. Winning neutral should not be too difficult if we make use of our own disjoints and footsies options, and you can effectively pressure her in advantage and reset to neutral if you understand what she can do and don't get baited into falling into her trap.

I think this is a +1 or possibly a +2 matchup for Pit. Palutena does have options and she can be tricky to fight in neutral, but patient play and understanding how and when to press the advantage can make it very manageable, and Pit has more than enough tools to deal with her divine shenanigans.
[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]Seeing as though the character discussions has died out. I'm going to say we should move onto talking about different characters

:4pit:vs.

:4palutena:+1

:4darkpit:vs.

:4palutena:+1
[/QUOTE]

[/SPOILER]
[SPOILER="Vids"]
[SPOILER="Customs On"]
Nada. Are customs even relevant anymore?[/SPOILER]
[SPOILER="Customs Off"]
[MEDIA=youtube]akam0Zb4SN0[/MEDIA]

[MEDIA=youtube]id=KFC_ZZNy2VM;m=3;s=10[/MEDIA][/SPOILER][/SPOILER][/SPOILER]

[SPOILER="Rosalina *part 2*"]
[SPOILER="Quotes"]
[QUOTE]
:rosalina:

- First off: Dark Pit is objectively superior in this matchup. If you have to fight Rosie, you should seriously consider using Dark Pit, even if you'd otherwise play Pit. Electroshock makes this matchup significantly more bearable and arrows will seldom be useful in the first place, so he has a noticeable advantage over Pit in this matchup. That said, I'm going to presume (unless otherwise stated) you're playing Dark Pit. I will make a brief point about their respective options at the end, just in case you do decide to go Pit.

- Dark Pit's Electroshock is great in this matchup. It's one of the best guaranteed Luma killers you could hope for and makes things much more even. Your first priority, therefore, should be to kill Luma: irrespective of Rosie's percentage, Electroshock can knock Luma off-stage and send it into a fatal tumble animation from just past the mid-point of most stages. Try to aim for the side that Rosie is closest to and get rid of it as quickly and efficiently as possible. If you're facing the right direction and are in any way close to the edge, Electroshock should knock Luma off-stage in one hit. That gives you about 12 seconds of one-on-one time with Rosie to press home the advantage. Use it wisely, and don't be afraid to go for Electroshock again whenever you need to: just be careful that you don't get too aggressive with it and try to use it as a crossup or mixup.

- You will probably get punished for using Electroshock, at least at low percents. This is something that you will have to deal with, and it's really not a heavy price to pay for negating Rosie's main weapon: if Rosie is shielding, she can grab or punish with an OOS aerial or u-smash, neither of which will really have a noticeable impact at low percents, or she can punish with a dash attack or possibly a smash of her choice if Luma is disconnected from her and she can rush in on time to get the punish. Remember that shielding will not defend Luma, so don't be afraid to eat an OOS punish if that's what it takes. When you get to higher percents, and if Rosie decides to be more careful with how she uses Luma, you will want to weigh up your options and decide if it's best to risk potential punishment to weaken Rosie. You don't have to kill Luma, it's often better to just play the neutral and go for Electroshock without making it a priority, but keep an eye out for opportunities and decide when it's safest to use it. It really does make a difference in this matchup, and the two are much more evenly matched when they're on their own.

- Rosie is no pushover without Luma, remember that! She's still got a ton of disjointed options, reasonably strong smashes and a decent neutral game to keep you on your toes. It's not uncommon for neutral with SoRo to become a patient game of playing careful footsies and trading disjoints, but remember that she is still weakened in this state and you should not be afraid to pressure her with whatever you've got. Space her out with autocanceled aerials and pivots, going for the grab if possible, and don't let yourself get punished. Rosie's still fast and strong even by herself and she is more than capable of punishing you if she gets the chance, so find a good balance between offensive play and patient poking to get her defenses down.

- She may decide to play more defensively and stall the clock if she's by herself, so don't be afraid to pressure her and make her respect your neutral game if she doesn't want to commit to the fight. While she can punish you consistently if she gets the chance, remember that this is your time, so make the best of it!

- Grab is an effective option as always, but Rosie's gravity makes it trickier to get most of our best followups our of throws: d-throw -> u-smash stops working very quickly due to her floatiness, so it may be best to go for d-throw -> u-air instead if you can, and it can be difficult to keep her in combo strings that would work on faster-falling characters. Go for the grab if you can, just remember to mixup your followups to compensate for her stature.

- If possible, don't position yourself directly above her: u-air will make it difficult to land if you're trying to get down from overhead, and especially if she has the advantage, she can keep pressuring you with u-air and potentially take your stock with it. If she gets you overhead and you have to reset, don't airdodge - she will read it and punish you for it, and that can be fatal if you're at high percents or on a stage with a low ceiling. Pittoo's airspeed isn't great either, making it difficult to jump out of the way, so your best bet is to either read her u-air and airdodge at the right time or use Orbitars to descend safely.

- By the same token, it can be difficult to pressure Rosie from beneath (with u-smash or u-air, for example), since d-air is a relatively safe disjoint and can interrupt our punishes. Don't get too hungry for the punish right away, instead try to bait her into committing to something and then punish that instead.

- She has an easier time edgeguarding Pittoo than he has edgeguarding her, since her recovery is about as effective as his and she has bigger disjoints in u-air and d-air. If she gets you off-stage, don't bother trying to fight back: just get back to the stage as efficiently as you can and priorities avoiding unnecessary damage. If you get her off-stage, and because her best aerial disjoints only hit overhead and beneath her, you can trade with her nair and f-air with our own f-air. Don't bother trying to d-air spike her off-stage, her u-air makes it too risky an option. Both her recovery and Pittoo's can be easily traced and intercepted: try to recover in a way that helps you return safely when you're off-stage, and when she's off-stage, cover the ledge to keep her from recovering safely (n-air is a good option, since it has a wide, lingering hitbox that can catch her when she travels). The main crux of this fight will be on-stage, so don't feel too pressured to challenge her off-stage if you're not comfortable with it - just remember that she can stall off-stage to wait for Luma to regenerate, so be ready to challenge her if you have to.

- When Luma is in play, you're going to need to be more defensive and patient until you can find a good time to knock it out. Don't rush in or try to force anything, you'll just get blindsided by Rosie's sentient stonewall: instead, bide your time and pressure from a safe distance, poking with aerials and throwing out arrows to soften it up. Rosie can't commit to much either, since the threat of Electroshock is ever-present, so the neutral can become something of a stalemate where both try to force the other into making the first move. If you're feeling pressured or have a good lead in percentage, it may be pragmatic to just go for the Electroshock kill and force Rosie into disadvantage. Both Rosie and Pittoo have to respect the other in neutral, since they both have a secret weapon that can really threaten the other and potentially neutralise their best options: being able to break through that wall of respect and go for the kill may well be the best thing to do in certain situations, and if you're confident that you can take whatever punishment you may receive for it, Electroshock will be your best friend and the defining trait of your gameplan in this matchup.

- Pit isn't nearly as good a choice in this matchup, since the only notable advantages her has are his arrows and the sweetspot on f-tilt: while f-tilt can be a decent and relatively safe kill option in its own right, it may well have to go through Luma to be effective and it doesn't make up for the option to negate a good deal of Rosie's options whenever the opportunity presents itself. Arrows can be useful for sniping Rosie and racking up damage, due to her tall hitbox and the fact that they can dodge Luma if they're directed well, but Gravitational Pull will absorb most of them if Rosie gets the chance, and again, it's not a worthwhile trade. Upperdash isn't a bad option by any means, and it's still a strong kill option in neutral, but the fact that it sends Luma straight upwards means it won't kill it as effectively as Electroshock and it's about as good as Electroshock is for killing Rosie. There's no reason why you should pick Pit over Pittoo in this matchup if you want to be more effective, Pittoo is easily the better choice.

This is one of the few matchups where there's a significant difference between the two Pits and where you will want to use one over the other in just about every way. For that reason, I think this matchup is 0 for Pit and +1 for Dark Pit.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]
When a Pitoo user plays well, Luma is never around, meaning rosa has to deal with a disjoint without her meatshield.
Pit lacks the ability to level the playing field in this way.
Dark Pit is absolutely more effective in this matchup. I'd hesitate to say he "beats" rosa, but it's probably even.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]Seeing as though the character discussions has died out. I'm going to say we should move onto talking about different characters

:4pit:vs.


:rosalina:+0


:4darkpit:vs.

:rosalina:+1[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]Just want to say, if you're using the ratios I posted on these matchups to determine the final score, I've changed my opinion on it. I talked to [USER=254987]@DialNouns[/USER] about it and we both think it's -1 for Pit and 0 for Dark Pit.

Don't know if others agree or disagree on that, but that's my opinion.[/QUOTE]
[/SPOILER]
[SPOILER="Vids"]
Click on the little Luma for more details!

[MEDIA=youtube]cjvSunylxVg[/MEDIA]

[/SPOILER][/SPOILER]

[SPOILER="Villager"]
[SPOILER="Quotes"]
[QUOTE]So no one has said much about the Villager matchup yet, so I'll take a stab at the subject.
The matchup against Villager is disadvantageous for Pit.  In my opinion, I'd call it a -1.  Villager can out-camp Pit pretty easily using his rocket, and fair/bair.   Let's face it, reflecting the rocket is often not the best decision, because the Villager can punish Pit for that, making one of Pits best anti-camping moves not as useful.  Also, Villager edgeguards the crap out of Pit.  His fair/bair/nair/even dair all hit Pit out of his recovery, making it very unsafe for Pit to go offstage.
Really, the only redeeming qualities about this matchup is that you can reflect bowling ball/tree for pretty early kills, you could potentially snipe villagers baloons with arrows, and with Villagers up+b not having a hitbox, Pit can harass his recovery and try to go for a stage spike.

Overall, I find this matchup difficult and annoying (though not unwinnable).[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]In my opinion, the Pit/Villager match-up is even. Villager shuts down aerial approaches very well with his zoning tools. However, Pit does not need to approach with aerials because his ground game is amazing. Shield is very strong for Pit since Villager needs to commit quite a bit in order to grab. This in turn allows Pit to shield Villager's projectiles and shield grab while remaining relatively safe. On top of that, most of Pit's aerials beat out Villager's f-air and b-air which mitigates Villager's zoning options against Pit if you do try to approach in the air. Therefore, I believe Pit wins the neutral game in this match-up. And the key to beating Villager is to beat Villager in the neutral as it is very rare to net an early stock from edge-guarding or spiking Villager (especially with our pretty weak spike).

Of course Villager has advantages over Pit. Most notably, Villager's edge-guarding tools are extremely powerful against Pit due his linear recovery options. A charged f-smash from the ledge while Pit recovering under the ledge can kill Pit at extremely low percents as shown here: https://youtu.be/I0MN3CzxmuA?t=661

Thus, it is vital to mix-up Pit's recovery. In my opinion, using side-b to recover is safer than up-b due to its super armor and hitbox. Being able to tech consistently is very important as stage spikes can and will likely happen a lot. Villager also has a lot of ledge tricks he can do but knowing which moves cover which ledge option can help the Pit player avoid a couple of his setups. Recovering fast is also good so that Villager does not have the time to set up.

This is a match-up is seen a lot in the Japanese scene, most notably through Earth and Ranai. Despite the fact that Ranai is the best player in Japan and possesses strength equivalent to top players like ZeRo, Nairo, and Dabuz (after all, he almost beat ZeRo and Dabuz against abysmal match-ups), Earth is one of the only players in Japan that has a relatively even set count against Ranai. For example, Earth won Pre-KVO by double eliminating Ranai.
Winners set: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIuoSwWQrho
Grand finals set: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glhQbLOER0Y

As a player, winning the neutral game is pivotal to Earth's game play; therefore, it is not surprising that he has taken many sets off of Ranai's Villager. Meanwhile, Paseriman, another Japanese Pit, has trouble against Ranai because he is not consistently winning the neutral and ends up getting edge-guarded as shown in this set: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1b8Wejc-qqI

All in all, I think it's even. Pit has the advantage in neutral and Villager has the advantage when edge-guarding. While Pit is not rewarded in the neutral as much as Villager is rewarded when edge-guarding, Villager has to beat Pit in neutral, a place where Pit has the advantage in, just to get Pit into an edge-guarding position. Therefore, the outcome of the battle will largely depend on who can get the reads and outplay the player.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]Seeing as though the character discussions has died out. I'm going to say we should move onto talking about different characters

:4pit:vs.

:4villager:+1



:4darkpit:vs.

:4villager:+1
[/QUOTE]
[/SPOILER]
[SPOILER="Vids"]
[SPOILER="Customs On"]
[MEDIA=youtube]HT6nX7vPsZ8[/MEDIA]

[MEDIA=youtube]id=KCeAuQeWsgQ;m=5;s=30[/MEDIA]

[/SPOILER]
[SPOILER="Customs Off"]
[MEDIA=youtube]dIuoSwWQrho[/MEDIA]

[MEDIA=youtube]1b8Wejc-qqI[/MEDIA]

[MEDIA=youtube]dIuoSwWQrho[/MEDIA]

[MEDIA=youtube]id=dAofjxIvreQ;m=4;s=7[/MEDIA]

[MEDIA=youtube]xFnBTZrUOz8[/MEDIA]

[MEDIA=youtube]ePPW01ygE_M[/MEDIA]

[/SPOILER][/SPOILER][/SPOILER]

 

[Wintropy]

I don't really understand this :C

Never mind, it's okay.

Thank you, I will have the OP ready to go as soon as possible~

 

[CHOMPY]

After a few days of this thread going nowhere, I'll post the MU ratios and see what you guys think.

+1 (60:40)
+1 (60:40)
+1 (60:40)

 

[Sensane]

After a few days of this thread going nowhere, I'll post the MU ratios and see what you guys think.

+1 (60:40)
+1 (60:40)
+1 (60:40)

I don't remember fighting a luigi with pit, but I'm sure that the ratio is pretty correct.
Hey, I now have a counterpick to fight lucas =D
Oh come on, Puff sucks; it's at least a +2 for us.

 

[Bravo_Le_Menace]

I don't remember fighting a luigi with pit, but I'm sure that the ratio is pretty correct.
Hey, I now have a counterpick to fight lucas =D
Oh come on, Puff sucks; it's at least a +2 for us.

I don't agree exactly that puff sucks, put her in the right hands with the right player and she could be amazing. But I do think because of our kill power and disjointed hit boxes that we dominate her in the air and on the ground. The only area she may have a very slight advantage I believe would be edgeguarding because of her long lasting hit box with Nair. I would give us +2 on that match up.

 

[Sensane]

I don't agree exactly that puff sucks, put her in the right hands with the right player and she could be amazing. But I do think because of our kill power and disjointed hit boxes that we dominate her in the air and on the ground. The only area she may have a very slight advantage I believe would be edgeguarding because of her long lasting hit box with Nair. I would give us +2 on that match up.

That logic can be applied to any character. People who main bottom tier characters know exactly why they're bottom tier characters. And even then, when put in the right hand they still struggle in several areas and matchups. Puff can't combo, can't last very long, and doesn't have the range to compete with.....ANYONE.

 

[Koiba]

I do agree that the puff MU is +2 especially if you do your spacing with ftilts right and not using any laggy moves at high percents (which should be essential lol)

 

[CHOMPY]

What characters do you guys want to discuss next?

 

[Sensane]

, , , and .

 

[Bravo_Le_Menace]

Yoshi plox

 

[Koiba]

and

 

[Mr. ShinyUmbreon]

Yoshi, Cloud and Marth

 

[NoahZark]

I definitely agree with discussing Yoshi and Cloud matchups

 

[CHOMPY]

Then that settles it!

Starting today, we will be discussing these characters

 

[Yikarur]

Pit Yoshi is +1 for Pit.
Yoshi has a hard time landing against him or even space moves because dash attack and upsmash cover most of Yoshis options.
This MU is in my opinion one of the most mental straining neutrals Yoshi can have because Yoshi has to play extremely conservative while Pit waits for Yoshi so commit to something, because Pit doesn't want to commit himself.

Aggressive Yoshis are beaten pretty hard by Pit and if Pit plays to aggressive it makes things a lot easier for Yoshi so playing defensive and conservativ is the best option for both.

Pit has the advantage because Yoshi cannot really get in so he has to try to do something but spacing Aerials etc. are beaten or punished by dash attack and upsmash.

Yoshi can't really get the KO in that MU as well except he gets some nice strings. It's a pain to get the KO on Pit but I'm bad at edge guarding Pit so not sure about this.

But If Yoshi gets in he can get a lot of pressure on Pit and rack damage really fast. Pit also has problems getting the KO at Yoshi if Yoshi avoids getting upsmashed.

Thats my experience against some very high leveled Pit players in germany.

 

[NoahZark]

On the matchup:

First thought is that you can force Marth to approach with arrows. And since Marth doesn't have the best approach options, this is generally a pretty good strategy. Forcing the Marth to approach, shield-grabbing and getting grab combos to rack up damage usually works, in my experience. Also, Marth is quite easy to juggle. His dair doesn't do much and he's pretty floaty, so you can get some decent damage from that. Another thing is that is doesn't have many good landing options, so dash attacking, up smashing, and throwing out side-specials is actually pretty effective. Edgeguarding Marth is also not too hard cause of his linear recovery, but you have to watch out for getting stage spiked by his up b.

Marth has some tools against Pit, but he might not get to use them if you don't approach. He can out-space many of Pits approach options, but that can be countered by running up then shielding. He also gains an advantage when Pit is above him, so try not to get above him and get juggled. Marth is a good edgeguarder, so going off-stage can lead to a lot of damage on Pit, even if Pits recovery prevents Marth from outright killing Pit this way.

Overall, I'd say the matchup is a +1 in Pits favor. Neither Pit is better than the other, as regular Pit's arrows harass Marths recovery and Dark Pit's side special can catch Marths landing for an early kill. My main note would be the advice of not taking Marth to battlefield. I feel that the platforms help Marth's approach and don't give Pit any advantage that Marth wouldn't also have too.

 

[Sensane]

Orbitars are effective against Yoshi's air game as they can push him away very far. Arrows are also good for forcing approaches from him.

 

[---]

http://smashboards.com/threads/match-up-discussion-vs-pit-dark-pit.431069/

Wasn't sure where else to put this, but the M2 board is looking at the twin angels next. They both seem to be really well rounded so we'd appreciate any and all input on this match up.

 

[Sensane]

Please don't die, MU thread :,(.
I have a couple notes on fighting cloud, though:

• Dark Pit's arrows are transcendant against standard blade beam. Don't know about Pit's yet.
• Don't bother camping with arrows since that's exactly what Cloud wants you to do so that he can just charge limit breaks.
• Keep the pressure up by using arrows at close range and autocanceled aerials.
• D-tilt and d-smash are [in theory] pretty effective against standard climmhazard.
• It's pronounced Clim-hazard, not climb-hazard.
• Try fighting him almost as if you would fight a little mac and try to get him offstage, whether or not cloud has a limit break up.
• When he has a limit break up, put him in a situation where he has to use either a limit blade beam or a limit climmhazard.
• Limit cross slash has invincibility on frames 6-11 with the hitbox starting on frame 10, which D1 just can't stop mentioning lol.
• Finishing touch has no invincibility upon startup.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

The Rosalina sub-forum is analyzing Pit again this week. Here's the link to the page if you have anything to contribute.

http://smashboards.com/threads/410742/

As for Dark Pit, he too is being analyzed again, but he has his own thread, due to having some moveset differences.

http://smashboards.com/threads/410744/

 

[Xandercosm]

The Mario sub-forum is also analyzing Pit/Dark Pit. You can find the discussion here: http://smashboards.com/threads/pit-dark-pit-matchup-discussion-thread-1.431536/

Be sure to add any input you may have!

 

[NoahZark]

What I've learned on the Cloud matchups is that it's very hard to land against him. The best way I found to get out of his juggles is to burn your jumps and either get to the ledge or get to the ground far away from the Cloud.

 

[Sensane]

What I've learned on the Cloud matchups is that it's very hard to land against him. The best way I found to get out of his juggles is to burn your jumps and either get to the ledge or get to the ground far away from the Cloud.

*cough cough* ORBITARS WORK AGAINST HIS U-AIR *cough cough*

 

[NoahZark]

ORBITARS WORK

While Orbitars do work, when I used them in the matches I played against a Cloud player, he would just bait out the Orbitars. I honestly found side-specialing out of his face to be just as effective

What I mean is that while it is a good option that I forgot to mention, it is by no means a get out of jail free card

 

[CHOMPY]

Its been well over a week since we were discussing Cloud, Yoshi, and Marth. I take it were done discussing them?

 

[Bravo_Le_Menace]

No one is replying

 

[Bravo_Le_Menace]

And I could really use the help on the yoshi and cloud match ups

 

[Sensane]

And I could really use the help on the yoshi and cloud match ups

I thought that you had things to say on the Yoshi mu. What happened?

 

[NoahZark]

Its been well over a week since we were discussing Cloud, Yoshi, and Marth. I take it were done discussing them?

But what is the consensus for +1/-1, etc. I've seen +1 for Pit in both the Marth and Yoshi matchups, but no one has been brave enough to say either way on the Cloud matchup.

I'd like to say that the Cloud matchup is a -1 for Pit, but I have limited experience in that matchup, so I was hoping someone else would be able to go more in-depth.

 

[momochii]

On the topic of I'd like to say it might be slightly even or in the Pits favor. Both characters play fundamentally similar when it comes to conditioning and spacing. Obviously Marth gets rewarded much more for his spacing. Both characters can juggle exceptionally well so neither wants to be above the other, However I think Pit has an easier time landing than Marth has against Pit. My reason being is since we have multiple jumps Marth has to try reading our landings a little more. Never land near or infront of Marth but the same could be said about any character. Once we read his jumps marth gets desperate to land, space yourself away from any of his whiffed aerials , read any counters he throws out and punish his landings with dash attack, upperdash/electroshock, dash grab/ throw him either above you or off stage preferebly the latter.

Off stage he can edge guard us but he won't exactly kill us, we however can harass marth so hard and it helps even more if you can intercept his recovery with some sniped arrows or a run off fast fall fair. I've noticed some Marths like to recover low and I have had luck doing run off dairs to kill him. Of course that's very situational. Either way I've never had a real problem with Marth in general. It's only when I play a patient marth where it heavily becomes footsies and tight spacing .

 

[Bravo_Le_Menace]

No I said I was requesting it

 

[Koiba]

Did we contact any Cloud mains?

 

[Sensane]

@Mew2King maybe?

 

[AC NuBurs]

I get to post this again, yay

One of the best players in my reigon plays cloud, and I find that its pretty easy to gimp off stage ( Sensane is right, treat him like little mac) or you can try and get him to use his limit up b, or you can condition them to think "I need to save my limit for when im off stage in case I get gimped" which means you can sleep on his other limit specials a bit. I find it can be hard to approach cloud when hes just walling us out with Nair, but that might just be me.

 

[Darklink2nd]

Yoshi MU is Weird...but maybe it's just because I don't understand Yoshi too well.
When the Yoshi is hyper aggressive...he's gonna lose. Pit and DP have no problem removing him from the stage whenever he whiffs a Dair or Fair or something stupid like that. But when the Yoshi is more careful and conservative the MU gets a lot more trying...

With DP it's just mentally strenuous because nobody wants to challenge anything. At least for me, the match typically comes to a point where Yoshi is just jumping and throwing eggs to keep DP away and DP just in shield trying to find the right time to start juggling him. No one wants to approach.

Yoshi doesn't really want to stay on the ground too long because DP is just going to grab him. Not to mention most of Yoshi's ground game seems to be pretty inneffective against DP. Arrows clank Egg roll, and most of DP's normals or just Short Hop Fair will out range Yoshi's. However in the air if yoshi spaces his aerials correctly then DP also starts struggling. I would not want to challenge that boot, Yoshi's nair just scares me.

When it comes to offstage the game belongs to the angels though. It's not too hard to gimp yoshi as he doesn't have much of an option to get back on the stage other than...jump. And when Yoshi throws the angels off the stage, they have all the tools needed to mixup their recoveries enough so that it's harder for them to get headbutted and they can usually recover from areas lower than Yoshi can even reach. I literally had a game where Yoshi SD'd twice because he went far too deep for a gimp.

I would say 50:50 for DP in particular. Maybe 55:45 for Pit because at least then Pit has a way to poke Yoshi in the Air with arrows instead of having to challenge nair with his aerials or start fishing for Up Smashes.

 

[Lukingordex]

I disagree Pit has such an easy time offstage. DJ is not yoshi's only recovery option, he actually can mix up his recovery really well with egg throws and choosing when to use his DJ and also has a pretty good air dodge -> Nair gtfo option after the DJ in case pit happens to read when and were he's going with his DJ. The only way yoshi is probably screwed offstage against Pit is if he is threw offstage without his DJ. And for Pit's recovery, yoshi can easily intercept Pit's Up B with a Fair or a Nair, so if the angels happen to be under the stage and has no other way of recoverying they're screwed

As for the MU i'd rate it as an even. Neither character has a safe way of approaching each other.
Basically the character who approaches first lose lol

 

[Skyfox2000]

So what's the final verdict on the / vs matchup?

 

[Sensane]

So what's the final verdict on the / vs matchup?

Even perhaps?

 

[Koiba]

Even perhaps?

Can you please give some more insight?