B&B! Zero Suit General Discussion

[Legit]

Try to bait Marth into the air with paralyzer then assault him. Also that's not true, side b out ranges all of Marth's moves.

 

[Heero Yuy]

Now I'm having trouble with Zelda...also particularly in the neutral. While ZSS outranges her a whole lot, I can't help but feel like Zelda is hard to touch because of the Nayrus.

 

[Lust for Glory]

Any word on the Roy matchup? This MU has been bugging me quite a bit for a good while now. The fact that CC is so strong in PM, and ZSS's CC'able moves, it feels that I'm overly dependent on paralyzers and side b.

Specifically, I get poked away any time I dedicate myself to approach Roy. I'm a bit tired of playing the "run everywhere til they mess up", so any tips?

 

[Dandizzle]

To approach against Roy you would have to bait with a dashdance or something then either grab or cross up with dash attack or Fair. Unless you jump up afterwards to get hit by a Nair or Bair crossups like that should be pretty safe. If you grab too much he will spotdodge or jump and if you cross up too much he will CC, run away or keep pressing buttons.

 

[Legit]

Any word on the Roy matchup? This MU has been bugging me quite a bit for a good while now. The fact that CC is so strong in PM, and ZSS's CC'able moves, it feels that I'm overly dependent on paralyzers and side b.

Specifically, I get poked away any time I dedicate myself to approach Roy. I'm a bit tired of playing the "run everywhere til they mess up", so any tips?

Even side b is CC'able at abnormally high %. But it sounds like you're playing the matchup correctly. Run around and shoot paralyzer till Roy jumps. If Roy is ever above you, that's your chance to go in. Both Marth/Roy have little options above you. When grounded, try to avoid using any CC'able moves often.... which basically means stick to mostly SHFF bairs, paralyzer, and grab. There's really no other safe way to play the MU that I can think of.

 

[Lust for Glory]

Alright, I guess the Roy salt will remain. Just curious, how balanced is the MU? Is it even, slightly in one's favor, or totally onesided?

 

[Shokio]

Alright, I guess the Roy salt will remain. Just curious, how balanced is the MU? Is it even, slightly in one's favor, or totally onesided?

I would say the Roy/ZSS MU is maybe 60/40, 65/35 at worst.

But, the way to play this is to pay Smash 4: Run up and shield. Act like you're about to approach with something, then shield. The Roy will instinctively take a swipe at your shield to try to intercept whatever attack he thinks you're approaching with, and then you grab the sucker.

This is outside of DDing and laser poking, of course.

It may be a little tough to do since the hitbox is kinda awkward to land, especially if you're trying to approach with it, but you Dair against chars with good CC's. Even if they don't get off the ground, 1) You'll pop up and chances are they won't punish you (lots of people have trouble punishing/don't know you can punish Dair) and 2) They'll get laid out on the ground for CC'ing, which can set up a tech chase for you if you get back to the ground fast enough.

 

[Dandizzle]

Regardless, I think ZSS has a bit more going against Roy then some characters so it could be worse.

 

[Lust for Glory]

Alright, cool stuff. Never bothered trying the Smash 4 approach. I'll give that a go and see how things turn out.

 

[Heero Yuy]

Who are ZSS's worst matchups in this patch other than spacies? Jw

 

[Shokio]

I would say ZSS has a very good MU spread. She definitely has more MU's in her favor than not.

But outside of spacies, I would say Roy, Marth, and Falcon are kinda bad for her.

 

[Dandizzle]

Funnily enough I was learning this character to deal with Fire Emblem and it has been better than my usual main at least for Marth but maybe I should keep looking? It's not like you can counterpick Marth except with like 3 characters and even that is debatable.

 

[InfinityCollision]

I feel pretty comfortable saying Marth loses more than 3 matchups in PM, even if I'm still working out the overall gist of his matchup spread in 3.5. I agree with Shokio though; ZSS does not win the Marth matchup.

 

[Shokio]

The MU can be easy if you: 1) Keep him above you 2) Capitalize on your edgeguards. Marth's weakness is coming down, ZSS's strength is harassing people when they're above you. Marth's weak in recovering horizontal distance, ZSS is good at comboing people far off-stage, not to mention a good divekick can gimp him at early percents.

@ Dandizzle ZSS can work for you as long as you don't have trouble getting in on them, and they don't know the MU too well.

 

[Dandizzle]

I was going to keep playing her away because all the better choices bore me to tears. And I know what characters you are talking about infinity just that they bore me. I played Sheik for awhile but it got stale and it seemed silly to have a secondary I would play for around 3 matchups, where I could see me playing ZSS in a couple more because it's more enjoyable.

 

[Heero Yuy]

For me it feels fun shutting down the FE boys, while I know it's hard due to their long swords and Fair/Dtilt pressure by Marth and Roy. I try to remain unpredictable and pressure them from midrange whenever I get the chance, especially forcing jumps with the blaster. Not to mention Marth's weight is great for ZSS to combo. Not saying these matchups favor us but just my input that they're not awful.

Falcon Idk.

 

[Legit]

We are combo bait for Falcon, meanwhile he's a fast faller so combo'ing him is harder for us.

 

[Vixen]

comboing Falcon is easy. o.o

 

[batistabus]

This might be an odd request, but would it be at all possible to make ZSS...I don't know...a little more filled out? I don't mean like a bigger **** and ***, but I'm talking about just making her body have more of a plausible athletic build. She's skinny as a stick, and compared to her head and feet, her body looks extremely weird, especially in comparison to other characters. Sheik and Snake don't have this problem despite being realistic looking human characters with skin-tight outfits.

I'm not trying to be progressive or anything, I'm just trying to make an aesthetic argument.

Oh ****, this actually happened.

Am I PMDT yet?

 

[Bash2King]

Question what do you use In Zss' nuetral? Besides Paralyzer

 

[G13_Flux]

Question what do you use In Zss' nuetral? Besides Paralyzer

depending on the MU, you can do a number of things. a heavy DD game with spaced bairs, grabs, dtilts, paralyzers, nairs, and sometimes spaced side bs or dsmashes is a pretty good summation of her best neutral tools.

i will tell you that her most rewarding conversion options are dtilt, dsmash, side b, and grab. additionally, her safest (least punishable options) are spaced bairs and paralyzers.

it really depends on the MU which options you use. if you are playing some of her tougher MUs, like fox or wolf, you likely should focus on using intelligent DD grabs, spaced bairs, and movement mix ups in conjunction with the two. if you are facing someone like bowser, DK, peach, ganon, among others, you will find that dsmashes and side bs become a lot safer in neutral, and since they are rewarding options, they are acceptable to use in those scenarios.

in general, though, the center piece of your neutral should be to work on fluid movement (make full use of platforms, edge cancelled divekicks, empty SHs, wavelands, wavebounces, etc.)

 

[ikon]

can someone explain to me why dtilt would be used outside tech chasing? it comes out fast (hitboxes on frames 5-8), but it has 18 frames of lag, no iasa, it loses to cc (it doesn't break marth's until 88%), and even if it does hit for a big reward, if you whiff or hit shield, you are going to get destroyed and there are way less risky mixups you can do with similar rewards with other moves

 

[Bash2King]

depending on the MU, you can do a number of things. a heavy DD game with spaced bairs, grabs, dtilts, paralyzers, nairs, and sometimes spaced side bs or dsmashes is a pretty good summation of her best neutral tools.

i will tell you that her most rewarding conversion options are dtilt, dsmash, side b, and grab. additionally, her safest (least punishable options) are spaced bairs and paralyzers.

it really depends on the MU which options you use. if you are playing some of her tougher MUs, like fox or wolf, you likely should focus on using intelligent DD grabs, spaced bairs, and movement mix ups in conjunction with the two. if you are facing someone like bowser, DK, peach, ganon, among others, you will find that dsmashes and side bs become a lot safer in neutral, and since they are rewarding options, they are acceptable to use in those scenarios.

in general, though, the center piece of your neutral should be to work on fluid movement (make full use of platforms, edge cancelled divekicks, empty SHs, wavelands, wavebounces, etc.)

DD is Dash Dance correct? And thank you that means i just need to work on movement for the most part

 

[G13_Flux]

can someone explain to me why dtilt would be used outside tech chasing? it comes out fast (hitboxes on frames 5-8), but it has 18 frames of lag, no iasa, it loses to cc (it doesn't break marth's until 88%), and even if it does hit for a big reward, if you whiff or hit shield, you are going to get destroyed and there are way less risky mixups you can do with similar rewards with other moves

it comes out quicker, has less lag, and more range than a grab. while it does lose to CCing, you can often catch people in their DD with it since ZSSs movement speed is so good. Its not roys dtilt by any means, and shouldnt be used as often as that, but it fits well with the rest of ZSSs kit. lets say the opponent anticipates you to use a dtilt and they anticipate CCing it. if you grab instead and perform a quick up throw, they will have DIed the throw suboptimally. if they think you are going to grab, they are likely to play a patient DD game. sometimes, rushing in with a dtilt can catch them off guard. dont forget you also have a really good crawl, which can be used in situations you expect to need to CC while allowing yourself to space a bit closer.

again, like I said, its not a "bread and butter" approach per se, and im not encouraging you to making rushing in a central part of your gameplan, but the best neutral games involve lots of mix ups, and sometimes that means experimenting with your options and styles of attack.

 

[Lip-HoustonPM]

Ok guys, does anybody know how frame negative downsmash is? I'm really eager for an answer I think the move has SO ****ING MUCH potential.

 

[prem]

its basically lagless. you can actualyl dsmash grab people if they shield the move, though im not actually sure if thats safe, i just know they held shield and it was super fast