Croi
Smash Lord
Lucario Match-Up discussion thread.
When Brawl was still a game that was played, the Wario boards went through the MUs according to the most recent tier list available. Since there is no official or universally-agreed-upon list, IMO we should go down the roster alphabetically. It would be a good way to even out our enthusiasm since we wouldn't skip straight to enthusiastically talking about Diddy and Sheik and then getting lazy with Mii Swordfighter or Doctor Mario.
We could switch up our patterns if we decide to later, but until then, let's discuss our current lucky winner:
CURRENT MATCH UP:
Click the smilie for the opening post.
DISCUSSED MATCH UPS: Click the ratios for opening posts. Remember, these are based on the views and opinions offered up at the time and are in no way "official" ratios.
| | | | | | | | | |
| x | x | x| x | x | x | x | x | x | x
Summaries:
Click the smilies for opening posts.
When Brawl was still a game that was played, the Wario boards went through the MUs according to the most recent tier list available. Since there is no official or universally-agreed-upon list, IMO we should go down the roster alphabetically. It would be a good way to even out our enthusiasm since we wouldn't skip straight to enthusiastically talking about Diddy and Sheik and then getting lazy with Mii Swordfighter or Doctor Mario.
We could switch up our patterns if we decide to later, but until then, let's discuss our current lucky winner:
CURRENT MATCH UP:
Click the smilie for the opening post.DISCUSSED MATCH UPS: Click the ratios for opening posts. Remember, these are based on the views and opinions offered up at the time and are in no way "official" ratios.
| | | | | | | | | | x | x | x| x | x | x | x | x | x | xSummaries:
Click the smilies for opening posts.
- The MU is 55-45 Lucario.
- Bowser hits really hard and he has a lot of scary, surprise options that we need to constantly watch for - his Klaw cancels on landing; his bair and fair can cancel Aura Sphere; his upsmash essentially beats everything; his grounded Fortress, while easy to predict, is difficult to punish and even harder to SDI out of.
- That said, Lucario is fast enough to combo Bowser as long as he likes, and when his Aura is high, he can match Bowser's kill power relatively easily. Aura Sphere and Force Palm control the space, and since Bowser has no projectile outside of Fire Breath (which isn't a great move), Lucario therefore controls the pace of the match. Bowser's large body leaves him vulnerable to even Lucario's more finicky moves, and his bulk plus his poor shield makes him very vulnerable to B-Reversing Aura Spheres.
- The match-up is 60-40 for Lucario.
- Jr relies a lot on getting in and racking up damage that way. He has some decent strings and most of his moves come out reliably quickly. He's a heavyweight, and his clown-car defense allows him to absorb more punishment than other characters in his general weight area. Most of his kill moves come out quickly...
- ... but they have a ton of downtime, so if he misses, he can get punished with nearly anything, including forward smash. His projectiles are all widely telegraphed and are asking to be Double Teamed. Specifically because of his weight and gimmick defense, he's really easy to combo at lower percentages, and once Lucario's Aura is high enough, his spacing is too good for Jr to break through, including Force Palm, which isn't stopped by Mecha Koopas. While Jrs attacks come out quickly, they don't link together very well.
- Lucario beats him at lower percents by having a stronger combo game and he wins at higher percents by being too good at spacing.
- Some Lucario mains can't decide on a number, but the majority of them think the MU is 55-45 for Captain Falcon.
- Captain Falcon is just too fast. He has too much reach of his attacks; he combos really well out of his throws; his data is too quick for us to match. His forward smash kills deceptively early and he is otherwise not lacking for kill moves at more reasonable percents. He has a stronger trump game than we do. He has a strong boxing game and is unafraid to engage or approach from any angle.
- Falcon's offstage game is probably his weakest issue. His recovery is very linear and, if our Aura is high enough, we can just charge one at the edge and the fist on his Falcon Dive will knick our sphere before he can grab the ledge. Falcon relies mostly on having momentum and keeping it, so if you can get him to stop for even just a moment, you'll have an opportunity to capitalize. He lacks kill throws (aside from bthrow at the edge of the stage and maybe uthrow at crazy high percents), so if he doesn't kill you early, he's likely not going to kill you until late.
- The fact is, Captain Falcon can get in whenever he wants and it's hard to push him back out until our Aura, and our percent, is high. He wrecks us onstage, and while he loses offstage, it's tough getting him there to begin with.
- Most people didn't really give the MU a number, but the few Lucarios that did think the MU is 55-45 Lucario's favour.
- Charizard, like most heavies, hits hard. He has an easy time keeping momentum and he has an easy time walling Lucario out at low percents with jab, Rock Smash, and Flamethrower. His upsmash is his fastest kill move and he is the eighth-fastest runner in the game. Flare Blitz is incredibly powerful and covers a huge horizontal area, so getting caught in our Extreme Speed landing lag is especially devastating versus him.
- Charizard, like most heavies, gets combo'd mercilessly. He's a big guy and he has poor aerial mobility and coverage (aside from his nair). Flamethrower will not stop an Aura Sphere with decent Aura and a blocked Flare Blitz puts him in an untechable tumble, opening himself up for anything we like. In a handful of MUs, Charizard relies on Flamethrower gimping his opponent, but that has not and never will work with Lucario. Although usmash comes out on frame 6, his other kill moves don't come out very quickly, meaning he needs a read to kill us, and with our Aura, our spacing is too good to allow him to even get close enough.
- Charizard is quick on the ground, but we combo him five times harder than he can to us, and his kill moves require close proximity, which we don't ever have to give him.
- The consensus is that the MU is roughly even. Some think it's in Pit's favour; some think it's Lucario's.
- Pit is very fast. His aerials cancel well and his dash speed/grab allow him to rush down fairly well, just like Captain Falcon. His attacks have a lot of disjoint, making it difficult to box him. Out-spacing him with high-Aura Force Palm or Aura Sphere is also risky because he has a reflector that covers both of his sides.
- Lucario has the tools to succeed in this MU not because of Lucario's own strength, but because of Pit's weaknesses. While his attacks have lots of reach and low startup, they don't have a ton of killing power and more than a little cooldown. He lacks kill power, which only makes our kill power all the stronger, and he has a very linear recovery, leaving him open to anything we could ask for. His reflector has the worst cooldown of them all, so if you bait it out, that's gg.
- Like Captain Falcon, Pit gets harder to beat the more momentum he gains, but he also loses a whole lot harder if we can stop him.
- Pre-patch, everyone was convinced the MU was 60-40 Diddy's favour. But he's been significantly nerfed since then, seeing lots of cooldown on some attacks and less kill power on others. But the MU hasn't changed at its core, so it's safe to say it's roughly 55-45 Diddy's favour.
- Diddy is scariest with a banana in hand. If he hits you on the ground with it, you're going to get smashed or grabbed. His mobility hasn't changed and he's one of the most erratic characters to fight, grounded or aerial. Every attack of his comes out in the single-digit frames, and a ton of his attacks have far reach and/or unfair disjoint, so he's very difficult to box. He has a command grab with Monkey Flip, so shielding on a platform isn't necessarily safe. Unfortunately, a moderately competent Diddy dictates the pace of this MU, no matter how well you space yourself.
- Diddy was scariest pre-patch because all that speed and mobility had kill power to back it up, but not so much anymore. Like any character with his general play style, he needs to rack up a ton of damage before he can kill us, and that's just fine with us. Aura Spheres and Force Palms will devour bananas (at 70%~ Aura) if they clash or are left on the ground, and if you don't sit still, Diddy will have a hard time catching you with all the range your Aura gives your specials. All of his smash attacks, while scary and devastating, have long cooldown, and if you can stay centre-stage, he has no kill throws.
- Lucario can't keep pace with Diddy, plain and simple, but without Diddy's earlier kill power, we don't need to to stay competitive. He's lightweight, so if you can keep him half as damaged as yourself, you'll be winning. You may need some luck to land the killing blow, though.
- See F2P w/ Gibus vs Denti for more.
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