Aura Breaks the Following Match-Ups: (Currently: Donkey Kong)

[sparkaura]

This MU is not in Jr's favor. If we get to 100, its super easy to snuff out Jr's zoning tools. Jr's doesnt pressure us like a sheik would, have the zoning of Villager, or the safe kill set ups like diddy. I played this MU in tourney and it was not hard for me.

 

[V1cegrip]

With that out of the way, the next character on the list would be , a MU I'm sure is going to get just as much attention and discussion. If a mod could edit the title (or maybe make that hub thread and export this post there) that'd be super.

One of my friends uses Bowser Jr, and I don't know if it's just that Jr isn't very good, or my friend isn't, but this doesn't feel like an especially stressful match up. Probably both.

Jr has some guaranteed combos out of his sideB if it lands: he can cancel it with a jump into any aerial, including Abandon Ship, which can rack up the damage fairly well. He has a surprisingly good jab and dtilt, and his ftilt has reach. His aerials are essentially the same as Warios: dair is multihit with a strong finish; nair is a long-lasting spinny thing with great reach; fair hits twice but it fairly weak; bair hits once and is strong. Uair is the only real difference, with Jr's only reaching above him and being rather weak.

Aside from Abandon Ship, Jr's specials aren't great. The cannonball is hugely telegraphed and the Mecha Koopa is pretty lame if you just keep your eyes on it. The Kart is a decent recovery move, and like I said it combos really well out of itself if it lands, but it's also really telegraphed and easy to respond to.

Jr's grab is pretty bad: it has the recovery of a tether but with an average grabber's range, like Mario's. I think he can combo out of dthrow at low percents, but not out of any at higher ones, and none of his throws can kill. His smash attacks are all strong, but they have terrible cooldown, so if he misses or is blocked, he'll get punched right in the face.

Jr is a midweight I think, but with the clown car's gimmick defense (attacks on the car do 80% knockback; attacks on the pilot do 120%), he combos like a heavyweight. He gets tossed around like his old man at lower percents but he doesn't have the kill power or the weight to make up for it. Just keep an eye on his aerials and he'll be a cakewalk for Lucario.

I'd argue 60:40 Lucario, or +2.

I don't feel as qualified as I'd like to be to write a matchup writeup because it's so early in the game but I wanted to at least address some inaccuracies in this post. Jrs. arials cannot really be compared to wario's just in the sense that Jr. has much more range and disjoint than wario. The moves may appear functionally similiar but I don't really see the similiarity, For example you aren't really going to wall someone very effectively with wario's fair and jr's nair is much higher range/disjoint and doesn't usually lead to additional combos like wario's does due to more endlag. Their dairs are the only move I can see some similiarity with. Jr's uair is basically squirtles from brawl but with more disjoint.

Cannonball has limited use but his other 3 specials all have amazing utility. JR. CANNOT combo out of downthrow at any percent. Actually Jr. cannot really combo out of any of his throw unless he is throwing you into a mechakoopa (or a mechakoopa walks into you as you fthrow or something, a situation which does occur a lot actually). Also concerning Jr's ability to kill, Jr. does have a reliable killer between like 75-110 on Lucario in the form of Side B to Up B hammer- It is a true combo and will kill reliably and I believe is Jr's most important tool for ending lucario before his aura becomes too powerful. You are correct about his smashes, strong with high cooldown, they all have a pretty good startup however and will cover a getup from the ledge due to long lasting property of usmash and fsmash. Jr.s throws DO kill. You just need some rage and some positioning (both backthrow and uthrow kill starting around 150% if you have some rage). Jr's standing grab may be pretty bad but it definitely aint pacman bad lol. His pivot is great and to me helps make up for the mediocrity of his standing grab (his pivot has high range and speed).

Jr. is a heavyweight, not a midweight with his weight being the same as Charizard. I do not believe he takes any reduced knockback, it's just simply he takes bonus damage when you hit his body and he takes reduced damage when you hit his armor (if you hit both he takes bonus damage, so most of the time he just takes bonus damage). Jr. has a strong mixup and spacing game and if kart is being used predictably that's on the player, not Jr. I hope I provided some information! At the moment like I said it feels too early to do a real deep analysis of the matchup but I'd be happy for any of you to play a Jr. that knows what he's doing so feel free to add me on wifi, I'd be more than happy to play any of you! Someone could even record some matches to give an idea, I don't think this matchup comes up very often in tournaments so far.

NNID: V1cegrip

 

[Braydon]

You can't assume the lucario is tourney quality and then not assume the bowser Jr. is as well.

You just assume the Lucario is a vastly superior player, this is just silly. I thought this was a match up thread not, "can you beat some random crappy bowser jr. you ran into online?"

 

[Croi]

You can't assume the lucario is tourney quality and then not assume the bowser Jr. is as well.

You just assume the Lucario is a vastly superior player, this is just silly. I thought this was a match up thread not, "can you beat some random crappy bowser jr. you ran into online?"

Says the guy who thinks that Lucario can't zone, when the reality is that, starting at ~60%, he has one of the strongest zoning games of all and it only gets better the longer you don't kill him. Have you fought any tourney quality Lucarios?

 

[Braydon]

Says the guy who thinks that Lucario can't zone, when the reality is that, starting at ~60%, he has one of the strongest zoning games of all and it only gets better the longer you don't kill him. Have you fought any tourney quality Lucarios?

Says the guy who thinks that Lucario Bowser Jr. can't zone kill, when the reality is that, starting at ~60% 80%, he has one of the strongest zoning games of all tons of kill options and it only gets better the longer you don't kill him survive. Have you fought any tourney quality Lucarios Bowser Juniors?


See look I can mock people to instead of having a reasonable argument.

 

[Croi]

Answer my question.

 

[Braydon]

Answer my question.

Answer my question.

 

[Croi]

Yes, I've fought tournament level Bowser Jrs, both locally and online. Now if you're done getting upset that the people playing a character you don't use in a videogame think they beat the character you do, stop being a petulant child and answer my question. Have you, or have you not, ever played a Lucario, whether online or in tournament, that was either equal to you in skill or even slightly better - say, 60:40-ish better, since Jr should be able to win with that deficit?

Alternatively, you can keep editing my posts with strikethroughs and adding your own snide remarks like you're the wittiest critic this side of the New York Times.

 

[Pentao]

Could always have some Lucario board users play some matches against the Bowser Jr. board to get more match up experience if there's some doubt floating around.

 

[Steam]

I'm just a few posts away from going 100-0 on this thread.

We just need to get the jr. boards in here. I can't speak for the matchup at a high level since there's only one jr. player in my region and he's not top 10.

 

[Ffamran]

Says the guy who thinks that Lucario Bowser Jr. can't zone kill, when the reality is that, starting at ~60% 80%, he has one of the strongest zoning games of all tons of kill options and it only gets better the longer you don't kill him survive. Have you fought any tourney quality Lucarios Bowser Juniors?


See look I can mock people to instead of having a reasonable argument.

Yes, I've fought tournament level Bowser Jrs, both locally and online. Now if you're done getting upset that the people playing a character you don't use in a videogame think they beat the character you do, stop being a petulant child and answer my question. Have you, or have you not, ever played a Lucario, whether online or in tournament, that was either equal to you in skill or even slightly better - say, 60:40-ish better, since Jr should be able to win with that deficit?

Alternatively, you can keep editing my posts with strikethroughs and adding your own snide remarks like you're the wittiest critic this side of the New York Times.

Just checking in because I'm bored, but what the hell are you two doing? Sorry for the language, but seriously, you're supposed to discuss the match up between Lucario and Bowser Jr. and not arguing with each other like school boys on the playground.

I'm just a few posts away from going 100-0 on this thread.

We just need to get the jr. boards in here. I can't speak for the matchup at a high level since there's only one jr. player in my region and he's not top 10.

Have you considered inviting players from their respective character boards to join the discussion? I do it for the Falco boards, FullMoon does it for the Greninja boards, and locuan does it for the Marth and Lucina boards. Invite them to discuss and play each other if possible for not just MU purposes, but fun as well.

 

[Braydon]

I'm not quite tourney level, but lucario's around my skill level have never given me any real trouble. I think you over estimate the power of force palm to break his zone as well as how much he has to zone past 100%. Force palm can never stop him throwing mecha koopas down from the air, or grabbing them and throwing them, so it's never going to completely break his ranged capabilities. Further more he can kill as early as 80% with a likely kill around 100%, being able to break his zone won't help much when he's coming in for a kill move anyway.

@ Ffamran
What bowser jr. board? Seriously though it's like me and 10 other people.

 

[Ffamran]

@ Ffamran
What bowser jr. board? Seriously though it's like me and 10 other people.

There are lurkers everywhere. <_< >_>

There's about 3 active Falcos not including me and sometimes some new Falco pops up or one of the data miners and experimenters show up. Let's also mention that there are people who don't know what Smashboards is! *scary music plays*

10 or 3, inviting people from any boards is still a good idea since you get different views and ideas. One person can only do so much.

 

[Hitman JT]

I don't have much experience against him in this game but this is relevant.

He isn't a free pass since his KO power is far stronger this time around and he can be a pain in the *** to make him mess up with his better aerials this time around.

Don't shield Down B, ever, roll away or spot dodge it if you can. Be careful of side B mix-ups if you shield, when you can abuse his landing with Aura Sphere to try and nail him when he lands.

Using me as an example huh...
Don't know if I should be honoured or embarrassed

 

[Steam]

I'm not sure what you think jr will be reliably killing with at 100 but if that's what's happening in your matches the lucarios you face are not good.

side B destroys mechakoopas once he's at high% a thrown mechakoopa can punish in between but I don't think jr can grab a dropped mecha fast enough to get shield out on reaction to a sideB. In which case it's only a viable punish if lucario is doing something he just shouldn't do.

 

[Braydon]

I'm not sure what you think jr will be reliably killing with at 100 but if that's what's happening in your matches the lucarios you face are not good.

side B destroys mechakoopas once he's at high% a thrown mechakoopa can punish in between but I don't think jr can grab a dropped mecha fast enough to get shield out on reaction to a sideB. In which case it's only a viable punish if lucario is doing something he just shouldn't do.

Seriously? Almost all bowser Jr.'s KO moves work by 100%, he can kill with a fricken jab by 120%, I don't think I'm so crazy to put him at killing around 100%, mainly because that's the point bowser Jr. normally kills mid weights.

 

[ShippoFoxFire]

Are we still discussing BJR or Bowser at this point?

 

[Croi]

Bowser is over and done with. The Lucarios unanimously think that the Jr MU is 60:40 for Lucario, while Braydon thinks it's 60:40 for Jr and V1cegrip hasn't offered an opinion. I'll give it another day before moving on.

 

[Ulevo]

BJ's disjoints would likely pose as an annoyance, but BJ doesn't have a way of handling shields all that well. I think if you offensively pressure BJ with shield he loses the match up. I can't say for certain 'cause I have no BJ's to play against, but it seems reasonable to me.

 

[Croi]

It's been over a week since we started talking about Jr, so let me summarize what the consensus is:

• The match-up is 60-40 for Lucario.
• Jr relies a lot on getting in and racking up damage that way. He has some decent strings and most of his moves come out reliably quickly. He's a heavyweight, and his clown-car defense allows him to absorb more punishment than other characters in his general weight area. Most of his kill moves come out quickly...
• ... but they have a ton of downtime, so if he misses, he can get punished with nearly anything, including forward smash. His projectiles are all widely telegraphed and are asking to be Double Teamed. Specifically because of his weight and gimmick defense, he's really easy to combo at lower percentages, and once Lucario's Aura is high enough, his spacing is too good for Jr to break through, including Force Palm, which isn't stopped by Mecha Koopas. While Jrs attacks come out quickly, they don't link together very well.
• Lucario beats him at lower percents by having a stronger combo game and he wins at higher percents by being too good at spacing.

The next match up to discuss, and probably one that a few more people have experience with, is

Falcon is an awkward match up to really describe. He's tied for 13th heaviest in the game and he's a fastfaller, so he's going to be hard to kill no matter what. He's absolutely a rushdown character and Lucario generally has troubles with characters that can outpace him - we lose at the early game because we can't space him, and, assuming both characters are at 100, a missed Force Palm or a hasty forward smash could get us killed out of a dthrow. This is one MU we can't afford to get too aggressive in, while Falcon lives and thrives on aggression.

Falcon has one of the best dash grabs in the game, if not the best, and he will often search for it. I've found some decent success against him by predicting the dash grab (which isn't hard) and beating it with standing grab. I think our grab range might beat his, but because he slides so far on a whiffed dash grab, he can afford to go for them more often than we can.

I don't know the frame data on his jab, but it can't be more than three, and that makes him difficult to approach from... anywhere, really. If you try to dash grab, he can just Gentleman you away. From the air will get you uaired. You can try approaching from beneath him if you catch him on a platform, but with quick, powerful moves like nair and bair, he has no problem getting down, so you better know what you're getting into by challenging that. And speaking of bair, be very careful if you're recovering and he's near the ledge: a trump to bair is bad news, but also, his utilt can spike now and the hitbox reaches beneath the ledge slightly, so be ready to curve your ExtremeSpeed if you gotta.

All this said, let's talk about how Lucario can win:

If your fingers are fast enough, Lucario has an easy time comboing Falcon at almost any percent (outside of kill percent). Because of his weight and fall speed, uthrow will mix and match with any short hop aerial or utilt. Falcon's dair isn't very good for getting him down, so if you can get him above you (without a platform) then he's relatively easy to harass. Aside from his jab, he also lacks a good "get off me" grounded attack like our utilt, so if you're not directly in front of him, his best options are to try and turn-around grab or to just run away and reset.

Falcon has no projectile, so once our Aura gets high enough, we can push him away with a Force Palm and then the threat of a follow-up Aura Sphere. He's difficult to keep out, though: if you miss or you're shielded from a few strides away, he has the running speed to get back into us before we can follow up with anything. He also has a very linear recovery, which is easy to punish with dairs or dropzone Aura Spheres.

He can kill quite early if you let him: his smash attacks can kill starting around 110, 120-ish. His Knee will kill about the same time. Raptor Boost will kill slightly later, I think? Landing them is pretty tricky for Falcon because if we're in kill percentage and he flubs, a grab and a few aerials will even the fight fairly quickly, and if he's hit hard-but-not-hard-enough, his recovery is easy to predict and we can finish him from there. If we're at 100 and he's at 50, a bair or forward smash will be all we need to force him to respect our offstage options and suddenly the match is in our favour. It's landing those moves that's the trick, though.

tl;dr:

Falcon is way too fast for us in the early game. We both have pretty decent low-percentage combo games but I think ours is slightly better (or at least we can hit more times than he can). He's difficult to approach from any angle and our zoning tools are generally too weak to force him away until we're in kill percentage. Even then, his blinding speed and powerful aerials make it easy for him to catch us off-guard regardless.

Like all match ups, it starts to turn in our favour once our Aura gets higher, but that depends on whether you've been keeping him at least halfway up with your own percentage. While our moves hit so hard that it forces him to respect us, he moves so quickly and hits hard enough that it might not even matter if we mess up. He is easier to edgeguard than we are, but his edgeguards are more devastating than ours.

I'd argue it's an even 50-50, if not 55-45 Falcon.

 

[Karnu]

Haven't had a lot of MU experience vs the koopalings so I'm affraid I can't put a legit input in.

However, I feel that the MU is in our favour just from the few games I do get to vs him.

Vs Falcon, I don't feel as this is in our favor.
I feel that he combos us well, kills us easily, too fast for us and his dash grab is good at punishing us for rolling away. I also feel as if he out prioritises us a ton.

 

[Rysir]

Charging aura sphere with your back to Falcon is a good friend in the fight, it walls out his grab attempts completely and when at higher % it stops everything but forward tilt and forward smash but overall it forces him to stop and think or else he eats up to 12% of charge damage.

 

[Pitbuller26]

Falcon vs. Lucario is even at best, bad for us at worst. I find it difficult to put numbers on this matchup because it's so dependent by each match played.

The scariest part about Falcon is when a player starts to think uses his fast jab and long reaching tilts to pressure us. The matchup isn't unwinnable but we have to constantly be on our toes. Throwing out smashes is almost never a good option against Falcon. Our best tools in this match are Aura Sphere, ftilt, dtilt and up throw.

I don't find FP to be useful due to how fast Falcon's run speed is and just how high of a percent is needed to safely use the move against him.

Depending on where you land a grab on Falcon, we should almost always up throw him. If grabbed near the ledge, I recommend throwing him off the stage due to how linear his recovery is. Due to how far ES recovers, we have the option of chasing Falcon offstage and be relatively safe even if we become one with the floor after recovering.

With customs involved, I have no clue.

 

[Ffamran]

The Falco boards have their Lucario match up discussion up and it'd be awesome if you chocolate lovers shared your (secret) recipes and we'll give you our baking tips. I mean, who doesn't want to eat this?

It's called a pain au chocolat. It's French and it's probably tasty.

Link to the thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/ssb4-falco-matchup-discussion-11-lucario-bread-chocolate.392182/.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Falcon's momentum is amazing, stop it or slow it down and you'll do alright. Baby Aura Spheres from a 1/2-2/3 of FD distance away may slow him down. Occasional pivot grabs, pivot FTilt, etc. are alright options as well.

Falcon is one of the characters that has a horrible time against Aura Sphere charging with our backs facing the edge starting around 70-80. Gotta just be weary of UAirs and you're golden. If you force him to regrab, free Aura Sphere, if he ledge rolls free Aura Sphere. Depending on his positioning if you get him caught in a charging Aura Sphere you can try hitting him with SH UAir, DAir, or even perhaps a USmash OoS.

Do not recover too predictably or else you'll get spiked by Falcon's UTilt or DAir.

A Falcon with rage will kill us with his grounded Side B at or slightly above 100%.

Falcon Kick is one of the most punishable moves if it hits one's shield. Easy grab (shield DI away if you are facing him for max chance of grabbing), not sure if we get a USmash out of Falcon Kick, but we might.

Falcon needs to attack from the air or use a disjointed attack if we decide to turn our back to him and charge up Aura Sphere at low-mid %.

I wanna say 50:50.

 

[Braydon]

I cannot take this thread seriously. Lucario is apparently #1, with only 50-50 against falcon, one of his hardest counters.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

I cannot take this thread seriously. Lucario is apparently #1, with only 50-50 against falcon, one of his hardest counters.

I'm all ears how I'm wrong, but I would prefer you showed it to me.

NNID: MTInfinity.

 

[Braydon]

I don't personally play falcon, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that he beats lucario. First of all, how is lucario ever going to build enough aura when falcon has kills at 80%? He has an arial kill at 80%, lucario is not a match for such brute force. Not only that but falcon generally has better reach on his attacks, better damage too. Lucario is also not near the hardest char for a good falcon to meteor smash off the edge, since he pauses for half a second before moving with extreme speed.

 

[Ffamran]

Or Lucario could hit Captain Falcon before he Nipple spikes him. You have to set up a meteor like that since if you don't and you just run off to do it, then it's likely someone can counter it or air dodge and move on. Hell, it might be better for Captain Falcon to Knee or Bair stage spike Lucario than going for a Dair. Captain Falcon, Ganondorf, and Falco need to know exactly what will happen or their frame 16 Dairs will be punished or whiff completely.

I would also like to mention that as an early match up discussion, there will be bias and there will be feelings that match ups are closer because it's early. We don't know everything yet. For all we know, Lucario could have some weird, glitchy tech to exploit and dominate, but nobody knows it yet. So for now, it's common to see 50:50, 45:55, and 60:40 ratios instead of say, 80:20 which I suspect may happen with Rosalina, Jigglypuff, and Palutena without customs will hold on Falco in the future because of the ease to juggle him. As of the current discussions I've made, Falco's slightly disadvantaged or even with all of them and that's a trend I can see happening for all the characters including Mii Swordfighter the current contender for worst in the game.

Still, considering that SSB4 is the most balanced, official game to date, being slightly disadvantaged and even to the entire cast might not be much compared to getting wrecked by everyone like Brawl Ganondorf. In a ditto, he would still lose.

 

[Croi]

First of all, how is lucario ever going to build enough aura when falcon has kills at 80%?

Where do you get these numbers from? I tested the numbers and Falcon gets one kill at 80: http://youtu.be/JwHp-euBIzk

And that's assuming absolutely zero DI or SDI.

You can't expect Falcon to land every one of his ultra-powerful kill moves, I mean, you're talking like landing the knee or a successful spike out of Lucario's ES is the easiest thing in the world.

 

[WolfieXVII ❂]

I don't personally play falcon, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that he beats lucario. First of all, how is lucario ever going to build enough aura when falcon has kills at 80%? He has an arial kill at 80%, lucario is not a match for such brute force. Not only that but falcon generally has better reach on his attacks, better damage too. Lucario is also not near the hardest char for a good falcon to meteor smash off the edge, since he pauses for half a second before moving with extreme speed.

Civilized discussion is hard, eh?

 

[Braydon]

Civilized discussion is hard, eh?

All I did was called someone a rocket scientist, you're here insinuating I'm some sort of barbarian.

 

[IsmaR]

No one insinuated anything. You're literally coming here with nothing backing up your arguments besides "because I said so/in my opinion." Do you expect everyone to praise you for such baseless claims on a character you yourself said you "don't personally play?"

The sarcasm/condescending attitude aside, no one is here to be civilized. Both of you drop it.

 

[hichez50]

I have some decent MU knowledge vs. Fatality( GA Falcon, currently ranked 3rd in the state). We have discussed the MU. We both agree that it is in Falcons favor. By how much it is really hard to say.

Against Lucario:

• Falcons great rush down game which includes amazing tools such as dash grab.
  
• Falcons efficient kill setups. Simply put, Falcon is one of the best characters at combo to kill conversion. This makes aura harder to abuse.
  
• Falcons move-set flat out beats low percent lucario. (ex, BAS clanks with jab.)
• Falcon is heavy and a fast faller, which makes vertical K.O's that much more difficult.

For Lucario:

• If we manage to get past 120% every character has to respect us. The same with falcon.
  
• Lucario has a decent juggle game vs. falcon
• Falcon options to get back to the stage when off it are pretty mediocre and can be punished accordingly. Even though these most likely will not result in a kill it will result in free damage.
  
• Bonus: even though not inherent of the MU many stage list make it easy for Lucario to get a good stage.

I would say 55-45. Falcons favor.

 

[sparkaura]

I would say 50-50 at best, but 55-45 in Falcons favor majority of the time.

Falcon is fast, has great kill potential, and a great grab game. His rush down combined with his kill potential is what makes this MU tough. Also his priroty completely trumps us at

Lucario should probably be defensive for the vast majority of this MU. We should be using AS/BAS and shield grabs to get damage in. The good thing about Falcon is that we can combo him pretty effectively off of a grab because of his weight and we can punish his recovery with AS and air options

 

[Duck SMASH!]

I don't know Lucario that well, but I can speak a bit for Falcon.
I have used Raptor boost to punish and KO Lucarios who thought they could up B onto the stage with aura, using their large recovery distance to hopefully give them enough space to land safely. The better/wiser ones aim for the ledge, because there is no safe landing against a captain falcon.
I think Falcon's aerials are better. Whenever a Lucario challenges me in the air he often gets smacked around by Uair, Nair, and Bair. Fair and Dair are great finishers if the Lucario doesn't expect them.
Also, double team is way too punishable to be useful against a good Falcon... Fake outs are way too simple with Falcon's mobility.

Aura is a pain though because Lucario's range boost makes rushing more difficult for Falcon. But I'm sure you guys would know more about it... Dashing shield becomes more enticing when I'm against an aura boosted Lucario...
Overall if Falcon can score the kill quickly before aura lets Lucario catch up, without losing momentum, I'd say he has the advantage.


Also, as a Bowser Jr. main, I know you ended your discussion on this earlier, but I wanted to add a few things...
Force Palm DOES go through our Kart dash, sadly. Tested several times between friendlies and FG matches.
Lucario's spacing with Aura becomes ridiculous and Jr players need to play more carefully to get in. But the disjointed aerials are still a threat, and even if Force Palm and Aura sphere stop our mechakoopas, we can still use them defensively to discourage you from spamming or protect us from a hard read.
You mentioned that Jr's aerials are laggy on landing. This is true. But if done properly, Jr. Can auto cancel his Fair, Bair, and Uair in a short hop (And his Nair on a full jump), and I've baited plenty of Lucario players who thought they could punish my landing when they run into my Ftilt or Fsmash instead, often paying with their stock if they're hungry for the kill with Aura...

 

[Loota]

This is one of the matchups I feel confident saying I actually have some experience though I'm bad at assigning any numbers (I liked the +/-/1/2/3/4 system we had with Brawl better). I don't recognize either side having enough notable advantages that would push the number to their side so I'm just going to call it even or remain silent on that front.

Neutral game consists mainly of Falcon wanting to pressure us from the range of his dashgrab and us trying to disrupt his spacing. While Falcon has generally more viable options in neutral, the combination of well-spaced AS's and nairs will keep us safe even if it requires really precise spacing. Nair should beat out all his aerials from shorthop and an AS at the height of his head (super important!) will limit his ground and shorthop movement immensely if he's not able to shield from a dash yet. Falcon can't overly commit either since we threaten him with insane combos at low% starting either from dtilt, utilt, nair, fair or grab (possibly from dash attack too).

When both characters enter kill %'s, we can't combo him that well anymore while he retains his dthrow combos to keep racking up damage reliably. The good thing is that it shouldn't kill us till %'s where he shouldn't let us live anyways so you don't have to be too scared of getting grabbed, just don't let him bait airdodges. We don't gain much from force palm flame since Falcon is really risky to space out with that much startup and cooldown so you'll still have to rely on AS and nair for spacing and applying pressure. Don't forget ASC pressure either since it's tricky for Falcon to handle it from the ground thanks to his long intial dash, and he's pretty much helpless when caught in the charge and very suspectible to shield -> JC upsmash from ASC.

As for killing, there isn't any specific way you'll want to go for the KO since pretty much anything will be potentially lethal to him if you manage to hit him offstage, as he doesn't exactly thrive there. Nair and AS are your best friends yet again when edgeguarding, as nair's lovely horizontal knockback will make his life miserable and he hasn't got much options around AS offstage or on the ledge, which will hit any non-optimized upB ledgegrabs which he will be often forced to go for. A big ASC directly over the ledge will lead to hilarious situations where he can't even grab the ledge without getting hit by it. Don't be afraid of going deep and throwing out those nairs either. Taking a hug near the ledge is also easily converted into our favour if you're consistent at techjumping it.

Falcon isn't bad either in edgeguarding either, you'll have to fully respect it despite our practically guaranteed ability to reach the ledge. We can mix up our momentum with dairs and even downB to bait him for a safe moment to start zooming around with upB, he can't remain long offstage or even come that deep after all. That makes him primarily try to edgeguard from the stage where you'll have to watch our for him mixing up dairs and uptilts on catching different upB angles and his devastating fsmash and sideB for landings (fsmash's range is deceptively long, don't try challenging him if you suspect it coming out). Despite the risks, it's not that hard to get on the ledge safely, just take it carefully from the ledge.

On stage you'll want to watch out for early kills from fsmash and sideB which are not that hard to keep look out for if you don't commit to something risky. They're risky themselves too so they're probably going for other ways to kill you if we're at high aura to severely punish them. Shielding is quite safe at higher percents since he can't get kills out of grabs except for backthrows near the ledges so you can definitely abuse that a little. As said, uair doesn't become scary until really high %'s so the main aerial you'll be looking out for is bair which happens to be safe on shield too when spaced. Also, keep in mind that dair's sourspot is suprisingly strong and has the potential to kill at reasonable percents from onstage despite it being janky to use.

We can definitely live really long in this matchup since Falcon's lack of reliable kill setups but at the same time, there's always a risk to lose it really early to those rage boosted fsmashes and sideB's (sideB gets an exceptionally good boost from rage, I can say that from a few painful reminders I've experienced). I've generally managed to get to pretty high %'s with careful play to get our usual gif-worthy business going.

I guess that somewhat covers it as I don't know how to continue or if I even made any sense on the last paragraphs. All in all, I like the matchup really much and believe both having an even shot at winning. I can agree to 55:45 Falcon still if that's what the majority thinks.

 

[Croi]

I think it's been long enough, so let me summarize the Captain Falcon MU:

• Some Lucario mains can't decide on a number, but the majority of them think the MU is 55-45 for Captain Falcon.
• Captain Falcon is just too fast. He has too much reach of his attacks; he combos really well out of his throws; his data is too quick for us to match. His forward smash kills deceptively early and he is otherwise not lacking for kill moves at more reasonable percents. He has a stronger trump game than we do. He has a strong boxing game and is unafraid to engage or approach from any angle.
• Falcon's offstage game is probably his weakest issue. His recovery is very linear and, if our Aura is high enough, we can just charge one at the edge and the fist on his Falcon Dive will knick our sphere before he can grab the ledge. Falcon relies mostly on having momentum and keeping it, so if you can get him to stop for even just a moment, you'll have an opportunity to capitalize. He lacks kill throws (aside from bthrow at the edge of the stage and maybe uthrow at crazy high percents), so if he doesn't kill you early, he's likely not going to kill you until late.
• The fact is, Captain Falcon can get in whenever he wants and it's hard to push him back out until our Aura, and our percent, is high. He wrecks us onstage, and while he loses offstage, it's tough getting him there to begin with.

The next MU to discuss would be

I've actually been for-funsies maining Charizard on the side. He's really fun to play as! But he definitely has a lot of weaknesses (despite both his typings beating ours haha HIGH FIVE).

To start, his jab game is crazy good. Don't try to challenge his jab: it comes out faster than you think and all three hits, especially the third, have long range. His ftilt is slow, has long range, and has a tipper on the flame of his tail, while his dtilt is fast, has long range, and no tipper. It's difficult to approach Charizard if you're unfamiliar with his tilts because his dtilt will knock you back every time, and if you shield and try to approach in his cooldown, he'll just jab you away.

Rock Smash is a really strong approach tool and might even be a panic button because from when Charizard lifts the rock to when he smashes it, he has super armour. I've super armoured through damn near everything: smash attacks, specials, projectiles, you name it. It's also a decent counter because the rock breaks on impact, regardless if that impact is Charizards: if you attack the rock, it'll break on you and then you'll be hit by debris.

Charizard's short hop nair autocancels, so if he's nervous about approaching or being approached, he can set up a bubble that you need good timing (or a good projectile) to get through. His fair is essentially Bowser's but a little weaker. His bair is strong, especially if he tips it - I've killed with it at 70, it's just that powerful. But it has horrendous ending and landing lag, so you likely won't see Charizard search for it much.

His Flamethrower is leagues better than Bowser's Fire Breath: the range is about the same, but you will always flinch if you're hit, it does more damage than Fire Breath, and I think it might last longer. And - don't get hit by Flare Blitz. It can't be stopped by BRAS and it will chug straight through Force Palm until your Aura is crazy high. Don't even try to challenge it, just let him go.

All this said, Charizard is still a heavyweight; he's still a big guy with a big body with a short-range projectile and not the fastest running speed. Like all heavyweights, we combo him for days and we can wall him out quite easily if he gets us to that point. Charizard's ledge-hanging animation puts his head well up and over the side, leaving him dangerously susceptible to a BRAS if we push him there.

Charizard lacks safe kill moves. His smash attacks all have poor endlag; his aerials are either telegraphed or leave him too vulnerable if he whiffs; Flare Blitz can either send him hurdling over the side ala For Glory Little Mac (but it can be spaced to prevent that!) or, if it's shielded, he's put into a tumble animation that he cannot tech, leaving him open to anything you want. His safest kill move is probably Rock Smash.

Charizard is really just a differently-textured Bowser when it comes to the Lucario MU. Combo him all you like at low percents, and when he finally gets you into mid-percents, start spacing with FP and AS. Charizard lacks the "safety net" of Grounded Whirlwind Fortress but he still has powerful close-quarters tools and if he ever uses Flare Blitz, it'll be to try and catch your landings. Just don't let him catch you sleeping and it's another 55:45, maybe even 60:40.

 

[Pitbuller26]

I use Charizard as well and I feel Lucario can take advantage of those weaknesses extremely well. Due to Charizard being a heavyweight, we already know to take caution in what we do but that's where we shine in this matchup. While Charizard's aerials have very good reach, the start up and ending frames on them are just so bad.

Things to look out for:

-Our dair will never beat Charizard's up everything once they're out.
-If we ever shield Flare Blitz, go with Aura Sphere or Up Smash to punish.
-Never be at the edge of the stage when at high percent, Charizard's down throw will kill us.

For us, if we get a grab, up throw is what we should use 95% of the time due to Charizard's weight, floatiness and lack of good jumps.

In short, I believe this matchup is in our favor 55-45 at worst, maybe 65-35 at best.

 

[ZephyrZ]

All this said, Charizard is still a heavyweight; he's still a big guy with a big body with a short-range projectile and not the fastest running speed.

Charizard actually has a deceptively good running speed. If I recall correctly, he's actually got the 8th fastest.

Charizard lacks safe kill moves. His smash attacks all have poor endlag; his aerials are either telegraphed or leave him too vulnerable if he whiffs; Flare Blitz can either send him hurdling over the side ala For Glory Little Mac (but it can be spaced to prevent that!) or, if it's shielded, he's put into a tumble animation that he cannot tech, leaving him open to anything you want. His safest kill move is probably Rock Smash.

You forgot on vital move, my friend; Up Smash.
It comes out very, very fast.

A good Zard probably will almost never SD with Flare Blitz. It's actually pretty easy to avoid, espeically if you know how to effectively use Flare Blitz to recover.
That said, it's still not a safe kill move, but it is still and incredibly powerful punish.

While Charizard's aerials have very good reach, the start up and ending frames on them are just so bad.

90% of the time we use any aerial attack, it's going to be our practically lag-less Nair.
Fair is for an off-stage kill and Uair is for an occasional kill off the top of the screen, but as far as we're concerned outside of that, Nair is our only aerial attack and the only one we'll ever need.

As for the score I give?
I dunno. I do play Lucario often, but I'm really bad at him compared to Charizard and I don't know the match up all that great.
I feel like it's in Charizard's favor, but I'm inexperienced with good Lucarios and so I'm probably incredibly biased.