Artificial Intelligence?

[Chibi-Chan]

I don't think it has been openly posted anywhere, nor had I heard of this from any other source but the P:M AI for some characters has been obviously tampered with! Some characters understand how to utilize their new moves and can easily sweetspot their modified recoveries, they will wavedash and L Cancel and try to do some combos. Just look at the new crazy 2.6 Jiggs that spams rest whenever the char hurboxes overlap!

So with that cleared up... Is Discussion on the AI something done here? If we give feedback on it will it be considered? I know many people consider the AI to be a pretty worthless thing but there is definitely some interest if they are already working on a few chars. It really goes a long way in improving their challenge and I have seen some really interesting ones, but at the same time I know some that desperately need to be tweaked (Wario has 0% chance of Recovery, ZSS will not try to use downB to help her recovery either) and make really "Free" AI fights.

So well, this is just for a general discussion about the topic and perhaps get some information from the PMBR about this: Who is doing it? Why? And Can we help?

 

[MonkUnit]

King Clubber is the main person altering the CPU's AI in Project M. You can thank him for making them better. =)

 

[Shun_one]

King Clubber is the main person altering the CPU's AI in Project M. You can thank him for making them better. =)

Thanks King Clubber. Because of you, while I was just trying to mess around and not pay attention, Lv9 Mario kicked my butt.

 

[Chibi-Chan]

That Falco sure loves to go crazy after getting a stock And yeah, Mario has been surprisingly solid since I first got P:M. King Clubber is pretty good~

Once some of the characters that are completely untouched so far are fixed it's going to be really awesome. Ganon taught me the %'s for Dair into Upsmash kills <3.

 

[MASTER_VOID]

I for one love the new AI since i rarely get a chance to play other people

 

[HyperrCrow]

King Clubber, whatever you did to Falco I love it. Nothing like seeing him multishine after ****** a stock from me.

 

[Kally Wally]

I'm just happy that Lucario has learned that aura sphere does, in fact, have a charge cap, and charging it for minutes on end isn't going to win him the match.

 

[| Kailex |]

I love ya king clubber

 

[Kally Wally]

Oh also is it just really hard to make them tech properly? Because they still don't seem to do that, and it would go a long way toward making them good practice partners. Still nowhere near a real person, but closer.

 

[lukifer]

Does Squirtle still spam his neutral-B when you're at a certain distance? That one always cracks me up.

Seriously though, great job on this. Can't be easy to program AI improvements in assembly code. >_>

 

[KingClubber]

Since this isn't going to be in the change list I'll tell you guys here what i did for 2.6's AI. Which wasn't much cause I'm saving everything for 3.0 whenever that comes.

But first i must clear something up, i did not use assembly to work on AI. i use Bero's AIScriptpad, a programing tool used to edit Brawl's AI. You can find it here: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=300461

Spamming issues with characters have been fixed, though i did "FORGET" to fix Marth's side-b spam on purpose. Sheik and Zelda AI won't transform now, so when you choose to have a match with Zelda you have a match with Zelda, and not Sheik.

I also added a "Spam tech skill cuz I ****!" taunt to Falco. As some have found he spams multishine, a pretty difficult thing to do consistently. Things like this will be added to other characters as well. Lastly with jiggs i added that she'll rest anyone within range while attacking, which will catch people off guard. It's mostly a warning shot to some, as she will rest you if given the opportunity.

Please understand that 2.6 was mostly a balancing patch with the added bonus of Metaknight being released. I silently added some AI work at the suggestion of other PMBR members, look forward to a bigger and better AI update in the future.

Also feel free to send me a message about the AI. Suggestions are also welcomed, you might find something you suggested in my next update.

 

[KingBlaze777]

Hey KingClubber, that "special taunt" you gave Falco is pretty amazing. Would it be possible to do something similar for Ness and Lucas involving DJC and Magnets for a future release? After all, they are the heirs to the shine :D

 

[Kink-Link5]

I'd like if the AI would powershield less and have other responses to attacks, but I can't really think of what to do with them.

Fox shining like a mo-fo against recoveries is nice.

 

[ItalianStallion]

The main thing for me is making CPU's use their recovery tools better. It would be amazing to be able to get edgeguarding practice from CPU's.

 

[GaretHax]

The Ai does feel different and it's definitely more fun to watch and react to now. They are still pretty easily beaten, but AI tends to be easily figured out in games as complex as this anyway. In the future would it be possible to implement a spacing sub-routine that takes or passes priority depending on what it reads from the player's inputs? I'm sure this is by no means a new idea, and you probably either plan to implement it in the future or have already tried, but it would really help players develop skill and good habits if the CPU's reacted in a more human manner to approaches/pressure, spacing, and stage control.

 

[KingClubber]

@KingBlaze777 - Of Course, i wouldn't dream of not do ether's custom taunt without using DJC.

@Link-Link5 - I've already worked on that, I've add a few more defensive actions.

@ItalianStallion - I've been working on that too, you'll be very happy with the progress I'm sure.

@GaretHax - Computers don't read input's, they have a danger bubble. Think the Spider Sense, if you attack while within that bubble they start being defensive, and that bubble is pretty big. I will be working on making it a bit smaller.

 

[GMaster171]

I'm just curious, how possible would DI be? Is it possible to tell the CPU to hold a direction during hitstun? If it is, how specific can it get, like hold away from closest border/away from other character?

Even random DI would be a step, tho a weird one, either DIing perfectly, or dying to knee at 30 lol

 

[KingClubber]

Very Unlikely, Pray to Dantarion for Di.

 

[Kink-Link5]

@KingBlaze777 - Of Course, i wouldn't dream of not do ether's custom taunt without using DJC.

@Link-Link5 - I've already worked on that, I've add a few more defensive actions.

@ItalianStallion - I've been working on that too, you'll be very happy with the progress I'm sure.

@GaretHax - Computers don't read input's, they have a danger bubble. Think the Spider Sense, if you attack while within that bubble they start being defensive, and that bubble is pretty big. I will be working on making it a bit smaller.

A good range for the bubble would probably be the length Marth's F-smash reaches from standing. Or the distance Fox can cover from a dash jump. Adding in a delay to reacting to that range would be optimal. It isn't so much the size of their defensive range as it is their reaction speed that makes them feel really inhuman. That same reaction time makes them abusable and predictable, but frustrating at the same time.

 

[Juushichi]

You're doing an amazing job, KingClubber! I can't wait for more of your wizardry.

 

[| Kailex |]

Jigglypuff totally amazed me, but just one issue, using rest outside the stage and ending up in an SD... Even though amazing job, I was just thinking that it will be nice if ganon's AI would moonwalk all over the stage as a taunt

 

[KingClubber]

@Kink-Link5 - I can agree about the range, but it will adjusted to be just a bit farther then that. Also i rather AI be a bit inhuman, it's better that way as it will give them a bit of edge over average players.

@Juushichi - I glad your enjoying they're improvement.

@Khix - It will be fix in the next update, about the taunt i'll see what i can do though going off stage might be a little much.

 

[Malart]

King Clubber, if the 3.0 AI update is awesome to anywhere near the extent that you're making it seem.... just... damn. I really can't wait. (inb4 if you are about to 4 stock the AI it just gets pissed off and SD's on purpose and acts like a **** XD)

 

[| Kailex |]

I thought of the moonwalk because of this vid http://youtube.com/watch?feature=plpp&v=2-HcIopWGE8 love how they moonwalk

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

Very Unlikely, Pray to Dantarion for Di.

Random DI CPUs would be invaluable for practice.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Computer on Run will DI to get away a lot, for what it's worth. If that AI could be coded to take out the actual running away part and just DI it would be a good place to start. Obviously the pipe dream would be having options for the 4 cardinal directions, none, and random.

 

[jayeldeee]

I have trouble beating lvl 4's and 5's. Now that's what I call a well done job in creating actual computer characters.

 

[HyperrCrow]

Just wondering KC, did you program Sonic's AI to moonwalk after a kill? I saw him do it after the finger wag taunt, although I don't know if it was intentional or accidental.

 

[KingClubber]

accidental, it's a clash of different AI routine crossing each other. Best left til otherwise.

 

[ItalianStallion]

The Falco multishines and the determined-to-rest-you Jigglypuff makes this AI update my favorite so far. I can't wait to see what's in store for 3.0.

 

[skstylez]

Jigglypuff made some awesome rest plays, and Falco shows off what i'll never be able to do... xD
Mario, Wolf, and Sheik just seem to be beasts overall, ZSS had some cool combos. Loving it =)

 

[Malart]

Computer on Run will DI to get away a lot, for what it's worth. If that AI could be coded to take out the actual running away part and just DI it would be a good place to start. Obviously the pipe dream would be having options for the 4 cardinal directions, none, and random.

Yeah, I was just gonna suggest something like that, Kink, but instead of DI (or idk, maybe in addition to it, if it gets figured out) I was gonna suggest there be options for long range harassment (run away and laser/fireball/etc., aggressive close/mid range all-out comboing, always shielding/shield grabbing, grabbing excessively, stuff like that. So people can work on shield pressure, or specific punishes and reactions a bit easier.

Falco, Mario, and Pikachu (maybe others) are already great for powershielding practice, but it'd be awesome to be able to practice more stuff for people who wanna go to tournaments but only get rare chances to play actual people.

Seriously though, love Falco at a distance, all those laser mixups. sometimes he fullhops, sometimes he grounded lasers, most of the time he shorthops (but will fire them at different heights.) Bang up job, KingClubber.

 

[Tugnus]

The AI is cool. Definitely has improved a lot since last update although they arestill pretty much just combo food.

I'm a little surprised to see so many people are in love with the spacey AI. Too me, Spacey AI is lacking hard especially when compared to other characters. They are way too slow to be spacies. Getting that first hit in is too easy and from there its just free with the AI's 0 DI and the most predictable recovery ever. Also when they get that miracle shine on me, they are almost never able to follow it up, which makes me sad

Other characters follow up pretty well especially on techs. Mario does some annoyingly crazy tech reads with that dash attack of his.

Maybe I shouldn't punish the auto miss techs and terrible recoveries so much. I had to kill myself a few times against Falco to see the multishine spam (which was AWESOME. Didn't expect him to do it for a straight 8 seconds >.<). Jigglypuff going for the rest was cool the first time, but then it got annoying. Jiggs literally spams it...and 90% of the times, she misses me. Then I'm just like, ugh jab. WAKE UP! Would have been better if you just made her Bair and upthrow-rest :D

Recovery, DI, and teching are still the main issues I have with the AI. Knockdowns also annoy me. The AI will respond after knockdowns the same way. Forcing get up attacks and roll away is the easiest thing ever.

My one request. Please somehow program the spacies to SideB into the ledges for recovery. PLEASE! I'm tired of all the fire fox gimps.

 

[Juushichi]

I've actually had Falco shorten his recovery from Illusion to throw off my edgeuard three times so far.

 

[KingClubber]

@Malart - I'm Working on it, some progress has been made.

@Tugnus - "Same as Above" Though Di, and Tech'ing are anothing issue "See as Above"

 

[Malart]

@Malart - I'm Working on it, some progress has been made.

Awesome, thanks for the reply. It's hard to tell if the ideas one has are viable or just unreasonable without feedback.

 

[Phaiyte]

It's not like cpu opponents are actually worth anything compared to a human though. Like, my friend's 7 year old brother is a better opponent than any cpu ever and all he does is pick peach and walk off the stage and pretend he won.

 

[monkfunk]

might i just say first that the pm team is pants ****tingly awesome.

and im going to put this out there as food for thought:
i dont know how doable it actually is but in a lot of fighting games the player has at leas a bit of control over the ai, like in fight night champions you can make a computer player behave the exact same way as you do.

dont know how hard or realistic that idea is but it would be pretty awesome. thanks for all the hard work

 

[KingClubber]

@Phaiyte - It's my job to make them worth something, and I'm sure Mario's AI can put up more of a challenge then someone who doesn't know how to play the game.

http://smashboards.com/members/phaiyte.173987/ @monkfunk - Glad your enjoying the game, and currently it isn't possible control the AI in such away.

 

[Phaiyte]

Can you make it so Bowser and DK don't UpB off of FD and BF right after leaving the spawn platform like 80% of the time? If the pacifist score still existed from the 64 days, I could do it for days vs any combination of 3 lvl 9 Bowsers and DKs about 70% of every match without even dashing.