All character landing lag frame data

[A2ZOMG]

Format goes Character Name, Nair, Fair, Bair, Uair, Dair, and I think airdodge land lag.

http://smashbros2ch.blog.fc2.com/blog-entry-449.html

Chart in English:

|Nair|Fair|Bair|Uair|Dair|Air Dodge
Mario | 10 | 26 | 12 | 12 | 19 | 22
Luigi | 14 | 22 | 16 | 12 | 20 | 22
Peach | 11 | 22 | 18 | 12 | 13 | 22
Bowser | 24 | 24 | 40 | 28 | 40 | 22
Yoshi | 11 | 17 | 19 | 14 | 24 | 22
Rosalina | 11 | 20 | 16 | 18 | 20 | 22
Bowser Jr. | 18 | 27 | 24 | 15 | 25 | 22
Wario | 12 | 16 | 27 | 12 | 19 | 22
Mr. Game & Watch | 12 | 15 | 24 | 12 | 28 | 22
Donkey Kong | 17 | 29 | 18 | 25 | 24 | 22
Diddy Kong | 13 | 26 | 12 | 21 | 28 | 22
Link | 10 | 12 | 10 | 23 | 32 | 22
Zelda | 22 | 23 | 25 | 22 | 21 | 22
Sheik | 10 | 10 | 12 | 21 | 30 | 22
Ganondorf | 18 | 23 | 20 | 20 | 28 | 22
Toon Link | 15 | 18 | 22 | 21 | 40 | 22
Samus | 16 | 30 | 18 | 12 | 20 | 22
Zero Suit Samus | 10 | 16 | 11 | 9 | 30 | 15
Pit | 24 | 20 | 20 | 24 | 24 | 22
Palutena | 20 | 12 | 16 | 24 | 18 | 22
Marth | 15 | 18 | 19 | 16 | 28 | 22
Ike | 16 | 19 | 19 | 18 | 26 | 22
Robin | 20 | 20 | 21 | 20 | 28 | 22
Kirby | 10 | 13 | 17 | 12 | 17 | 22
King Dedede | 15 | 30 | 21 | 22 | 30 | 22
Meta Knight | 20 | 20 | 18 | 18 | 22 | 22
Little Mac | 16 | 22 | 26 | 22 | 30 | 22
Fox | 11 | 27 | 15 | 22 | 25 | 22
Falco | 15 | 32 | 15 | 15 | 26 | 22
Pikachu | 25 | 15 | 30 | 24 | 40 | 22
Charizard | 22 | 32 | 36 | 22 | 35 | 22
Lucario | 9 | 18 | 15 | 22 | 9 | 22
Jigglypuff | 15 | 15 | 18 | 15 | 30 | 22
Greninja | 12 | 18 | 16 | 15 | 32 | 22
Duck Hunt | 22 | 15 | 24 | 18 | 34 | 22
R.O.B. | 12 | 15 | 22 | 22 | 21 | 22
Ness | 18 | 26 | 17 | 14 | 28 | 22
Captain Falcon | 12 | 30 | 12 | 9 | 21 | 22
Villager | 14 | 23 | 23 | 15 | 15 | 22
Olimar | 15 | 15 | 15 | 30 | 30 | 22
Wii Fit Trainer | 14 | 15 | 20 | 15 | 20 | 22
Dr. Mario | 12 | 28 | 16 | 14 | 24 | 22
Dark Pit | 24 | 20 | 20 | 24 | 24 | 22
Lucina | 15 | 18 | 19 | 16 | 28 | 22
Shulk | 12 | 21 | 21 | 17 | 25 | 22
Pac-Man | 12 | 16 | 22 | 16 | 20 | 22
Mega Man | - | 19 | 20 | 19 | 24 | 22
Sonic | 16 | 26 | 30 | 21 | 38 | 22

EDIT: Updating a few known changes to frame data.

 

[DarkDeity15]

Link's Fair with just 12 frames of landing lag. Awesome.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

lol zss having the basically the lowest numbers in the game

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Unrelated but why is Villager's name written with hiragana? I'm sittin here tryna find it thinking I don't need to count through the list and just glanced over it without realising because I was looking for the katakana of "to"

dam

 

[Leebee]

murabito is just the word for "villager"

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Oh that's right. You mean like the japanese word right? And the others are written in katakana cause they're supposed to be the english word?

 

[B0NK]

If someone doesn't mind taking the time, could someone put this in Table Format with English? Or Spanish, that'd be fine too.

 

[Leebee]

Oh that's right. You mean like the japanese word right? And the others are written in katakana cause they're supposed to be the english word?

yeah! katakana is used for foreign words/titles/names so you see the rest of the cast with it.

 

[southpaw]

http://i.imgur.com/t80TyRa.png pic with chars in english, updated with moves

 

[B0NK]

Thanks paw.

 

[Thinkaman]

Even better, here's a spreadsheet version I made for you guys:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1I_3D5P-lJtnrXn9X51JoM3iNjFwyrFYG6BD-****u7Q/edit?usp=sharing

Fixed:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1uwEvYc82aUOUJ22_NE_oK3LlmUglglrwN0_A_aiTKlM/edit?usp=sharing

 

[B0NK]

wooooooow don't try to show up my boi's paint skills

that wasn't even done in paint what a fronter link doesnt even work

afk

 

[Kef]

Sheik's Fair and Nair are only two frame slower than her L-Cancel'd counterparts in Melee, that's crazy.

Fox is not too bad either. 11 frames of landing lag on his Nair put him right in the middle in comparison to a non L-Canceled Nair and a L-Canceled Nair in Melee (15 and 7 respectively).

Everything with 12 frames of landing lag or so felt pretty great to use while I was testing all the characters, which is roughly the speed of Marth's L-Canceled Bair. It's not as spammable, but you can definitely set some pressure with spaced normals/crossups (Shulk's Nair and Greninja's Nair).

 

[Thinkaman]

Hahaha, the randomly generated link URL contained a censored sequence. Lemme make a new one.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1uwEvYc82aUOUJ22_NE_oK3LlmUglglrwN0_A_aiTKlM/edit?usp=sharing

 

[Emblem Lord]

Lucinas fair is far superior while Marth has a better Uair. So Marth better for air traps and Lucina with a better SH pressure game.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Lucinas fair is far superior while Marth has a better Uair. So Marth better for air traps and Lucina with a better SH pressure game.

Where are you getting that? Unless something is mistaken, they have identical land lag frame data.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Whoops. I miscounted Marths spot on the list.

Anyways, Nair is so close to being "fast" At least its safe when spaced well.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Also MK's aerials...damn

 

[Shog]

No wonder Charizards Air Game is hard to pull off, that Lag on all useful air moves.

And Wii Fits Air Dodge lag is the smallest? How interesting.

 

[SonicZeroX]

Wow Falcon's Uair is only 9 frames? Can't wait to see the potential of quick SHFF Uairs once the Wii U version comes out. The only other single digit attacks are ZZS uair, Lucario fair and dair, and I guess Megaman's nair.

Also lol 12 frame Wii Fit's airdodge.

 

[dmcAxle]

Here's one with more data added and things combined to see which characters have the best landing lag stats for each situation (and compared to their weight). It's an edit of what Thinkaman posted, so credits to him.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1GGgO0faaADiJPLKPxfYYA7jjdlLCe3ojP3gsSJ7cFns/edit?usp=sharing

- Kirby has the lowest overall frames of landing lag tied with ZSS (only because of her lower air dodge).
- Lucario has the best landing lag stats in combination with weight, unless the weight data in the other thread is wrong. Also the only character to have the lowest landing lag on an aerial twice...ignoring megaman and his disjointed pewpewpew.
- Megaman is pretty low because of nair just being pellet shooting, not sure how to really deal with him so I left it as is.
- Bowser has the worst landing lag on his aerials with the heaviest weight but clearly players have discovered he has gotten a lot more buffs in other areas of his stats to the point that this doesn't matter as much anymore.
- Not including Shulks Monado stats. I don't remember if they change the lag on his recovery + we don't have it if they did.
- Weight is included because stats are balanced with weight (among many other things) and higher weight generally has higher landing lag.


While it's situational for each character in some way and hurtboxes/hang time matter too so the data isn't the end all for who has good aerials and who has bad aerials....generally:
- nair+bair+fair+dair for attacking at generally same height on stage (ex: short hop jump+nair, fast fall) Characters with crappy dairs can look at n+b+f.
n+b+f+u exists for when using your aerials when the enemy is above you and will show who has the least landing lag in that respect

Hall of Fame:
Lowest nair: Lucario (9). Excludes Megaman and his pellet nair.
Lowest fair: Sheik (10)
Lowest bair: Link (10)
lowest uair: ZSS, CFalcon (9)
lowest dair: Lucario (9)
lowest air dodge lag: Wii Fit Trainer (12)

If there are any more recorded stats like jump height and fall speed to add, I'd love to put those in since those matter too. Not the most useful data addition I know since a lot of characters actually crux on one aerial for each situation. For example you don't really use dair for on stage gameplay if it is a laggy vertical drop and not having a good one doesn't really hurt you. Still nice to have I think. Neat way to see how things are balanced.

 

[BJN39]

So yeah, WFT ftw with that 12 frame AD landing lag. It's obvious that no matter how many times it looks like WFT won't be good, something is found to make her look EVEN. BETTER.

 

[allshort17]

Link's aerial data is nuts. Also, people might as well play Ike over Marth just by going off aerial data. Ike's frames are only 2 more than Marth's on all aerials.

 

[SonicZeroX]

Here's one with more data added and things combined to see which characters have the best landing lag stats for each situation (and compared to their weight). It's an edit of what Thinkaman posted, so credits to him.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1GGgO0faaADiJPLKPxfYYA7jjdlLCe3ojP3gsSJ7cFns/edit?usp=sharing

- Kirby has the lowest overall frames of landing lag tied with ZSS (only because of her lower air dodge).
- Lucario has the best landing lag stats in combination with weight, unless the weight data in the other thread is wrong. Also the only character to have the lowest landing lag on an aerial twice...ignoring megaman and his disjointed pewpewpew.
- Megaman is pretty low because of nair just being pellet shooting, not sure how to really deal with him so I left it as is.
- Bowser has the worst landing lag on his aerials with the heaviest weight but clearly players have discovered he has gotten a lot more buffs in other areas of his stats to the point that this doesn't matter as much anymore.
- Not including Shulks Monado stats. I don't remember if they change the lag on his recovery + we don't have it if they did.
- Weight is included because stats are balanced with weight (among many other things) and higher weight generally has higher landing lag.


While it's situational for each character in some way and hurtboxes/hang time matter too so the data isn't the end all for who has good aerials and who has bad aerials....generally:
- nair+bair+fair+dair for attacking at generally same height on stage (ex: short hop jump+nair, fast fall) Characters with crappy dairs can look at n+b+f.
n+b+f+u exists for when using your aerials when the enemy is above you and will show who has the least landing lag in that respect

Hall of Fame:
Lowest nair: Lucario (9). Excludes Megaman and his pellet nair.
Lowest fair: Sheik (10)
Lowest bair: Link (10)
lowest uair: ZSS, CFalcon (9)
lowest dair: Lucario (9)
lowest air dodge lag: Wii Fit Trainer (12)

If there are any more recorded stats like jump height and fall speed to add, I'd love to put those in since those matter too. Not the most useful data addition I know since a lot of characters actually crux on one aerial for each situation. For example you don't really use dair for on stage gameplay if it is a laggy vertical drop and not having a good one doesn't really hurt you. Still nice to have I think. Neat way to see how things are balanced.

With Bowser it's because a lot of his moves auto cancel off a shorthop so the landing lag numbers don't matter. If you actually land with any of his aerials there is definitely noticeable lag.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Link's aerial data is nuts. Also, people might as well play Ike over Marth just by going off aerial data. Ike's frames are only 2 more than Marth's on all aerials.

You think 2 frames isnt alot eh? Its a BIG difference in a fighting game.

 

[allshort17]

You think 2 frames isnt alot eh? Its a BIG difference in a fighting game.

True true. I guess the comment was to point out how surprisingly close they are.

 

[san.]

You think 2 frames isnt alot eh? Its a BIG difference in a fighting game.

Good thing it's mostly a 0-1 difference

This is good to know, but not very debilitating if you can short hop autocancel your laggy aerials. Part of what makes Mega Man's stuff a pain to use when they should autocancel on short hop.

 

[Pikabunz]

Made a smashboards table version of it just because. You can rearrange the order from greatest to least or least to greatest by clicking at the top of the columns which is neat.

|Nair|Fair|Bair|Uair|Dair|Air Dodge
Mario | 10 | 26 | 12 | 12 | 19 | 22
Luigi | 14 | 22 | 16 | 12 | 20 | 22
Peach | 11 | 22 | 18 | 12 | 13 | 22
Bowser | 24 | 24 | 40 | 28 | 40 | 22
Yoshi | 11 | 17 | 19 | 14 | 24 | 22
Rosalina | 11 | 20 | 16 | 18 | 20 | 22
Bowser Jr. | 18 | 27 | 24 | 15 | 25 | 22
Wario | 12 | 16 | 27 | 12 | 19 | 22
Mr. Game & Watch | 12 | 15 | 24 | 12 | 28 | 22
Donkey Kong | 17 | 29 | 18 | 25 | 24 | 22
Diddy Kong | 13 | 26 | 12 | 21 | 28 | 22
Link | 10 | 12 | 10 | 23 | 32 | 22
Zelda | 22 | 23 | 25 | 22 | 21 | 22
Sheik | 10 | 10 | 12 | 21 | 30 | 22
Ganondorf | 22 | 25 | 22 | 22 | 30 | 22
Toon Link | 15 | 18 | 22 | 21 | 40 | 22
Samus | 16 | 30 | 18 | 12 | 20 | 22
Zero Suit Samus | 10 | 16 | 11 | 9 | 30 | 15
Pit | 24 | 20 | 20 | 24 | 24 | 22
Palutena | 20 | 12 | 16 | 24 | 18 | 22
Marth | 15 | 18 | 19 | 16 | 28 | 22
Ike | 16 | 19 | 19 | 18 | 26 | 22
Robin | 20 | 20 | 21 | 20 | 28 | 22
Kirby | 10 | 13 | 17 | 12 | 17 | 22
King Dedede | 15 | 30 | 21 | 22 | 30 | 22
Meta Knight | 20 | 20 | 18 | 18 | 22 | 22
Little Mac | 16 | 22 | 26 | 22 | 30 | 19
Fox | 11 | 27 | 15 | 22 | 25 | 22
Falco | 15 | 32 | 15 | 15 | 26 | 22
Pikachu | 25 | 15 | 30 | 24 | 40 | 22
Charizard | 22 | 32 | 36 | 22 | 35 | 22
Lucario | 9 | 18 | 15 | 22 | 9 | 22
Jigglypuff | 15 | 15 | 18 | 15 | 30 | 22
Greninja | 12 | 18 | 16 | 15 | 32 | 22
Duck Hunt | 22 | 15 | 24 | 18 | 34 | 22
R.O.B. | 12 | 15 | 22 | 22 | 21 | 22
Ness | 18 | 26 | 17 | 14 | 28 | 22
Captain Falcon | 12 | 30 | 12 | 9 | 21 | 22
Villager | 14 | 23 | 23 | 15 | 15 | 22
Olimar | 15 | 15 | 15 | 30 | 30 | 22
Wii Fit Trainer | 14 | 15 | 20 | 15 | 20 | 12
Dr. Mario | 12 | 28 | 16 | 14 | 24 | 22
Dark Pit | 24 | 20 | 20 | 24 | 24 | 22
Lucina | 15 | 18 | 19 | 16 | 28 | 22
Shulk | 12 | 21 | 21 | 17 | 25 | 22
Pac-Man | 12 | 16 | 22 | 16 | 20 | 18
Mega Man | - | 19 | 20 | 19 | 24 | 22
Sonic | 16 | 26 | 30 | 21 | 38 | 22

 

[Conda]

So... I'm wondering what the deal is balance-wise with ZSS. Not sure what Sakurai assumed her downsides would be, but there don't seem to be any at all.

 

[Signia]

Next we need a shieldstun chart. These numbers only matter for comparing unsafety of whiffs without that. Is there really as little shieldstun as I think there is?

Is Sheik low fair->jab a legit frame trap against some shield grabs, for example?

 

[Dr. Tuen]

How was this data found? If frame data research can be done now, it'd be really neat to get hitstun/shieldstun data. I'm also wondering how the Mii characters fit, along with Shulk's forms.

 

[Gawain]

Made a smashboards table version of it just because. You can rearrange the order from greatest to least or least to greatest by clicking at the top of the columns which is neat.

Oh baby, dat Falcon uair. It's such a great combo move for punishes. I frequently do landing uair ---> jump ---> uair ---> jump ---> knee. It's a true combo, crazy stuff, blastzones almost every time from starting at like ~50 percent

 

[A2ZOMG]

Made a smashboards table version of it just because. You can rearrange the order from greatest to least or least to greatest by clicking at the top of the columns which is neat.

Honestly had no idea you could do that. Edited to the topic post for visibility.

How was this data found? If frame data research can be done now, it'd be really neat to get hitstun/shieldstun data. I'm also wondering how the Mii characters fit, along with Shulk's forms.

Landing lag is probably very easy to test on the 3DS if you're patient with the slowdown/pause settings that are provided. Hitstun and shieldstun in contrast would at minimum require Wii-U control settings and extra human input to verify accurately.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

How accurate is this? Far as I can tell, Diddy's fast failed fair has absurdly short landing lag... If any. Is it really 12 frames long?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

How accurate is this? Far as I can tell, Diddy's fast failed fair has absurdly short landing lag... If any. Is it really 12 frames long?

Also note this doesn't include auto canceling, which is a pretty big deal for a lot of the lag shown on that table. Because I know Bowser's is wrong since his auto cancel aerials are not that laggy.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

12 frames is like, 1/5 of a second. thsts pretty fast

 

[Tristan_win]

Ahhh, frame data, sweet delicious frame data....hmmmm, moar give me moar!

Landing lag is pretty damn low in this game.

 

[Remzi]

Interesting that WFT has sole posession of the least laggy air dodge.

Great work on the spreadsheet, thanks to those who compiled it. An important followup would be data regarding autocancels.

 

[A2ZOMG]

How accurate is this? Far as I can tell, Diddy's fast failed fair has absurdly short landing lag... If any. Is it really 12 frames long?

It states that for B-air, not F-air according to this chart.

And personally me, I have no way of verifying most of this outside of video footage (reading approximate frames from visuals is not difficult), but so far most of the data sounds consistent with most player impressions. And logically, I have reason to believe that currently, collecting accurate frame data for aerial landing lag is not in fact difficult.

 

[rolrctermaniac]

I Added a few more fields to the table that I found important. Note, average min and max exclude air dodges.

|Nair|Fair|Bair|Uair|Dair|Air Dodge|AVG|Min|Max
Mario|10|26|12|12|19|22|15.8|10|26
Luigi|14|22|16|12|20|22|16.8|12|22
Peach|11|22|18|12|13|22|15.2|11|22
Bowser|24|24|40|28|40|22|31.2|22|40
Yoshi|11|17|19|14|24|22|17|11|24
Rosalina|11|20|16|18|20|22|17|11|20
Bowser Jr.|18|27|24|15|25|22|21.8|15|27
Wario|12|16|27|12|19|22|17.2|12|27
Mr. Game & Watch|12|15|24|12|28|22|18.2|12|28
Donkey Kong|17|29|18|25|24|22|22.6|17|29
Diddy Kong|13|26|12|21|28|22|20|12|28
Link|10|12|10|23|32|22|17.4|10|32
Zelda|22|23|25|22|21|22|22.6|21|25
Sheik|10|10|12|21|30|22|16.6|10|30
Ganondorf|22|25|22|22|30|22|24.2|22|30
Toon Link|15|18|22|21|40|22|23.2|15|40
Samus|16|30|18|12|20|22|19.2|12|30
Zero Suit Samus|10|16|11|9|30|15|15.2|9|30
Pit|24|20|20|24|24|22|22.4|20|24
Palutena|20|12|16|24|18|22|18|12|24
Marth|15|18|19|16|28|22|19.2|15|28
Ike|16|19|19|18|26|22|19.6|16|26
Robin|20|20|21|20|28|22|21.8|20|28
Kirby|10|13|17|12|17|22|13.8|10|17
King Dedede|15|30|21|22|30|22|23.6|15|30
Meta Knight|20|20|18|18|22|22|19.6|18|22
Little Mac|16|22|26|22|30|19|23.2|16|30
Fox|11|27|15|22|25|22|20|11|27
Falco|15|32|15|15|26|22|20.6|15|32
Pikachu|25|15|30|24|40|22|26.8|15|40
Charizard|22|32|36|22|35|22|29.4|22|36
Lucario|9|18|15|22|9|22|14.6|9|22
Jigglypuff|15|15|18|15|30|22|18.6|15|30
Greninja|12|18|16|15|32|22|18.6|12|32
Duck Hunt|22|15|24|18|34|22|22.6|15|34
R.O.B.|12|15|22|22|21|22|18.4|12|22
Ness|18|26|17|14|28|22|20.6|14|28
Captain Falcon|12|30|12|9|21|22|16.8|9|30
Villager|14|23|23|15|15|22|18|14|23
Olimar|15|15|15|30|30|22|21|15|30
Wii Fit Trainer|14|15|20|15|20|12|16.8|12|20
Dr. Mario|12|28|16|14|24|22|18.8|12|28
Dark Pit|24|20|20|24|24|22|22.4|20|24
Lucina|15|18|19|16|28|22|19.2|15|28
Shulk|12|21|21|17|25|22|19.2|12|25
Pac-Man|12|16|22|16|20|18|17.2|12|22
Mega Man|-|19|20|19|24|22|16.4|19|24
Sonic|16|26|30|21|38|22|26.2|16|38