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Data All Aircraft Report! - Fox MU Discussion Thread

KidSchadow

Smash Rookie
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Aug 10, 2015
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Say, is there anywhere you'd like me to post stuff regarding mu discussions that have already been finished, or is it ok to put stuff like that right here? Sorry, just don't wanna accidentally clutter things up.
 

Rango the Mercenary

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Ike goes about 50-50 with Fox. Fox has a strong, fast neutral and kills under 100% with USmash, to include no-tech combos.

But Ike has strong advantage in range and defense. Fox has limited approach options thanks to retreating Nair. Moreover, Fox is powerless offstage. Eruption ends stocks early due to Fox's lightweight, and if they go onstage and Ike predicts it, he either sends him back offstage or combos him.

Fox's single worst enemy in this enemy is the UThrow Fair combo. Fox is a fastfaller and a lightweight - both of which do him no favors and confirms kills on him.

If Fox can get in and stay in with the juggles, he wins the matchup because he'll make Ike look embarrassingly slow. Otherwise, it only takes a few mistakes and it's over.
 

G-Sword

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Ike goes about 50-50 with Fox. Fox has a strong, fast neutral and kills under 100% with USmash, to include no-tech combos.

But Ike has strong advantage in range and defense. Fox has limited approach options thanks to retreating Nair. Moreover, Fox is powerless offstage. Eruption ends stocks early due to Fox's lightweight, and if they go onstage and Ike predicts it, he either sends him back offstage or combos him.

Fox's single worst enemy in this enemy is the UThrow Fair combo. Fox is a fastfaller and a lightweight - both of which do him no favors and confirms kills on him.

If Fox can get in and stay in with the juggles, he wins the matchup because he'll make Ike look embarrassingly slow. Otherwise, it only takes a few mistakes and it's over.
Sounds about right to me
 
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:4charizard: VS. :4fox:

GENERAL OUTCOME: About 55/50 in Charizard's favor, maybe?

EXPLANATION: Fox/Charizard is something of an odd MU for both characters. Charizard has the advantage in having a similar dash speed, good aerials and both a combo throw and kill throw. Fox's Reflector isn't as useful in the Charizard MU as it is in others, even for shining, since Charizard not only has a decent recovery, but no really useful projectiles to reflect. Fox is a light floaty, which means he can't be comboed as easily by Charizard, but he also lacks the kill power of characters like Shiek, meaning Charizard will likely end up living into rage percents. However, Charizard is big and can be hit pretty hard by Fox's aerials, and he can't really duck lasers, either.

Fox's recovery is also pretty brutalized by Charizard's gimping options because of it's linearity; DAir, BAir and FAir cover both Illusion and Fire Fox and Flamethrower can put a damper on Fox's recovery, too. Charizard's fast grab and the fact that he can use super armor to plow through Fox's kill moves even at high percents, combined with the percent disparity for KO's, and this is definitely an MU where Fox really needs to use his lasers as a damage racking tool to try and get Charizard into kill percents safely.

At least, this is my opinion as a Charizard main. What do you Fox mains have to say on the Charizard MU?
 
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Dastardly Ridleylash Dastardly Ridleylash @

Not trying to be mean here, but describing Fox's physics as floaty and having less kill power than Sheik?

Not sure if you really understand Mr. McCloud.
I'm more referring to overall power more than just move power. Sheik can do a number on Charizard because all her moves are quick and hard to punish, and I find that MU to be far more threatening than the Fox MU simply because she has a lot more ways to reliably kill him than Fox does (who generally needs to try to read with FSmash and USmash or gimp 'Zard's recovery in order to kill Charizard before he can take too much damage, unlike Shiek, who can FTilt Charizard for days). Fox isn't weak, but his kill power is not as consistent as Shiek's.

Maybe "floaty" is an improper term; but Fox is definitely easier to combo with Zard than most other high-tiers. Plus Fox's recovery is pretty linear (you only really have Firefox and Fox Illusion), making Charizard's DAir even more dangerous to him than to other characters because of that. He's got that same weight feeling as :4mewtwo:, basically.
 

_Wumbo_

Smash Rookie
Joined
Apr 11, 2016
Messages
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I'm more referring to overall power more than just move power. Sheik can do a number on Charizard because all her moves are quick and hard to punish, and I find that MU to be far more threatening than the Fox MU simply because she has a lot more ways to reliably kill him than Fox does (who generally needs to try to read with FSmash and USmash or gimp 'Zard's recovery in order to kill Charizard before he can take too much damage, unlike Shiek, who can FTilt Charizard for days). Fox isn't weak, but his kill power is not as consistent as Shiek's.

Maybe "floaty" is an improper term; but Fox is definitely easier to combo with Zard than most other high-tiers. Plus Fox's recovery is pretty linear (you only really have Firefox and Fox Illusion), making Charizard's DAir even more dangerous to him than to other characters because of that. He's got that same weight feeling as :4mewtwo:, basically.
Fox is easier to combo because he is a fast-faller, the opposite of a floaty. As far as kill power goes, Fox has tons of set ups for upsmash alone that aren't to difficult to get, especially on someone like Charizard who has a big frame. Reads are not necessary to get kills.
 

_Wumbo_

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How does Fox deal with Bayonetta? His lack of guarenteed follow-ups off of grabs makes it hard to get good damage in, and all of his recovery options lead to a free Witch Time.
 

Knife8193

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Hey guys, I'm looking into picking up Fox again (played him in Brawl). Although I want to ask what his commonly agreed upon bad MUs are. I asked my local/regional Fox mains and they seem to have very conflicting opinions on several MUs.

Fox:Sheik is the only MU where they all agree that its bad for Fox. Even post patch

Bayo I've heard is either even or in Bayo's favors leaning towards Bayo favor

Rosa is either even or in Rosa favor leaning towards Rosa favor

Ryu is either even or in Ryu favor leaning towards Ryu favor

Pikachu is either even or in Pikachu favor leaning towards even

Zss is either even or in ZSS favor leaning towards even

Mario is either even or in Mario favor leaning towards even

Luigi is either even or in Luigi favor leaning towards Luigi favor

Cloud is either even or in Cloud favor leaning towards Cloud favor

Kirby is either even or in Kirby favor leaning towards even

Ness is either even or in Ness favor leaning towards even

Obviously, lots of differing opinions, which is why I wanted to ask here to see what the common consensus on SWF are on the MUs. Thanks!
 
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_Wumbo_

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Hey guys, I'm looking into picking up Fox again (played him in Brawl). Although I want to ask what his commonly agreed upon bad MUs are. I asked my local/regional Fox mains and they seem to have very conflicting opinions on several MUs.

Fox:Sheik is the only MU where they all agree that its bad for Fox. Even post patch

Bayo I've heard is either even or in Bayo's favors leaning towards Bayo favor

Rosa is either even or in Rosa favor leaning towards Rosa favor

Ryu is either even or in Ryu favor leaning towards Ryu favor

Pikachu is either even or in Pikachu favor leaning towards even

Zss is either even or in ZSS favor leaning towards even

Mario is either even or in Mario favor leaning towards even

Luigi is either even or in Luigi favor leaning towards Luigi favor

Cloud is either even or in Cloud favor leaning towards Cloud favor

Kirby is either even or in Kirby favor leaning towards even

Ness is either even or in Ness favor leaning towards even

Obviously, lots of differing opinions, which is why I wanted to ask here to see what the common consensus on SWF are on the MUs. Thanks!
I actually think Fox beats Ryu. I wrote about it earlier in this thread.

As for Luigi, there is no way that match-up is even close to even. Luigi was genetically engineered specifically to kill Foxes.
 

_Wumbo_

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How can Fox win a MU where all it takes is a Utilt, Dtilt or jab to die at 60-70 depending on rage?
Nah man
I can't find where I wrote about it earlier so I'll just sum up my thoughts:

Fox never has to fight on Ryu's terms. They both have the tools they need to absolutely demolish the other, but Fox has superior mobility and neutral so it is easier for him to get an opening to use those tools.

I would equate it to the Fox-Puff MU in Melee. This is widely considered Puff's worst MU despite the fact that she has multiple ways to kill Fox at absurdly low percents. This is because Fox has every tool he needs to counter them.
 
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M@v

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You outspeed and outmanuever him. Also dair is really good vs focus attack. So yeah, matchup's great for Fox...


....until you get hit.Then you take 50%, or just die. Usually just die because of rage shoryuken.

It's pretty much how all my matches vs 9B's Ryu went. Died from a combo that started at 42% on the one stock.

Fox's worst matchup IMO.
 
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Foster J.

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It's an insanely horrible MU, sure you can run around in neutral as much as you want, but all it takes is a hit confirm to an early death.

If people recall Paragon's Trela v Larry lurr, which is sadly not uploaded but I have a crappy file recording, Trela even back then took Larry to game 3 last stock last hit situation, and Larry barely won.
If they were to face off again, I'll bet money on the Lurr counter picking or just losing
 

G-Sword

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Would like to hear some people's opinions on how they deal with diddy spamming bair. Trying to figure out the best way to deal with him when he's doing that
 

DavemanCozy

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Would like to hear some people's opinions on how they deal with diddy spamming bair. Trying to figure out the best way to deal with him when he's doing that
Diddy spamming B-air: be patient.

You should be more respectful of his F-air. That has more range and can be auto-cancelled relatively easily for it to confirm into almost anything he wants.
 

Woker!

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Hey guys,did you already discuss the Bayonetta-fox MU? Im having a lot of trouble vs her, theres this player from tijuana, hes a great player, but believe me, before bayonetta came out, I used to beat him all the time (he was a ROB/ZSS main), but since bayonetta came out, he started to beat a LOT of players, but specially me, I CANT EVEN TAKE A GAME FROM HIM, ok, yeah, fos has the advantage on the neutral, but bayonettas jabs covers a lot of space, and that thing takes like 21% out of me, but thats the pretty part, everytime bayonetta grabs me, is like a a free 70% she takes from me, or she just kills me ( up throw to up b to side b to ajdhaskjdhaskjdhsahsahd death...), I really, REALLY need help with this MU, any advice from you guys?, thank you c:
 

DavemanCozy

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I don't think we've brought up any matchups since the last patch. It got annoying to run this thread with all the changes they kept making to the game.

We might as well start discussing it now, doesn't look like more patches are coming.

:4fox:vs:4bayonetta:

I can only comment based on theorycrafting and observing, I have little experience against her. I think it's something like 6:4 in Bayo's favour. Generally speaking, her combo starters (D-tilt, U-tilt, Side-B, and U-throw) can all be baited and punished because of Fox's better burst speed. I've noticed too that Up-B is fairly easy to SDI away from to escape her combos; because of our falling speed, I've seen SDIing down at low percents helps escape them.

Knife8193 Knife8193 Fox's worst matchups imo are:
1. Shiek is his worst
2. Ryu
3. Rosa
4. Bayo
5. Luigi

Other IMOs: ZSS is in ZSS's favour (some ZSS's think Fox wins, idk about that). Kirby is in Kirby's favour (I could see even). Cloud is in Cloud's favour (not fun for either side though). Pikachu is in Pika's favour (I could see even). Mario is even. Ness is even.

More IMOs on relevant MUs: Diddy is even. Mewtwo is even. Yoshi is even (despite all the comments on this MU). MK is even. Corrin loses to Fox. Sonic loses to Fox. Villager is even. Falcon loses to Fox. ROB loses to Fox. Toon Link is even. Greninja is loses to Fox.

:4ryu: - While I do agree the best way to play is to generally just avoid hand-to-hand with Ryu, this matchup is bad. That's essentially the same way you should be playing against Luigi. And with Ryu, all you can really do when he traps you in soft U-tilt locks is SDI and pray he messes up or that you land to put up shield in time.

:rosalina: - She is very potent at keeping out Fox when Luma is present. KOs Fox very early and can abuse his weight and fall speed to do so with U-air juggles and edgeguards. It's significantly easier when Luma is gone, because it give Fox a much better window of opportunity to start something on her.

I don't know if there is really a consistent opinion though. There's always Xzax and Larry's matchup opinons: https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/49qt8g/larry_lurrs_and_xzaxs_fox_matchup_charts/

They're fairly accurate imo, they were also made before the last patch though; so Mewtwo and Bayo namely are not necessarily accurate.
 
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Flamegeyser

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Bayo/Fox is about even. We both have the potential to die super early, Bayo destroys Fox offstage, Fox destroys Bayo onstage. Fox is more consistent in approaching and punishing, but gets less off of it since he's a fast faller and thus combo food. Neither has a good grab game, so no particular advantages there. Fox has much better frame data, but is also susceptible to extremely early deaths by witch time.

This is coming from a Bayo main, what do you guys think?
 

DavemanCozy

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I'm tempted to lean towards even myself, but all my experience against her was pre-patch: only a couple in Ontario decided to stick with her after her nerfs, thus I have little experience with the current Bayo.

It is apparent that her strengths lie in the air rather on the ground. Fox has a very strong ground game with strong aerials, but his air mobility keeps him from doing any more damage in the air than he already does. Thus, like with many other character matchups, Fox should theoretically be winning neutral all the time. It's his weight class + fastfall speed that leave him very vulnerable, especially to Bayo's nasty combos and early death edgeguards. That's why I think it's more on her favour.
 
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G-Sword

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I'm sure it's in here but there's alot to read lol. When does Pikachu's utilt combos stop working on Fox where its a guarantee combo starter? Trying to figure out what % I don't need to worry about getting juggled with it.
 
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