Data All Aircraft Report! - Fox MU Discussion Thread

[DavemanCozy]

Also, I think we should restart the match up discussion from the beginning because of the patch. It would be best for us to postpoine next week's discussion. That way we can get some information on the changes of Fox and his match ups before continuing.

I think this is a good idea with the characters that have changed, regarding the ones we've discussed.

In order of priority that should be discussed again, (imo):
(nerfs all over)
(Bair nerf)
(slight Luma HP nerf)
(Backthrow KB and Spindash damage nerf)
(slight nerf to Fireball)
(small change to B-throw)
(knockback increase in Side-B)
(notable buffs to F-air)
(his shield now blocks blaster shots [!] and his jab cancel infinite was removed)
(same as above with shield, also Dsmash KB reduced on first hit)
(less endlag with inhale and hammer, buffed D-throw, Usmash, and Dsmash)
(buffs to F-tilt and missiles)

Being discussed
(tome drops and wind jabs)
(changes to Side-B, U-throw, Up-B, F-air)

Did I miss any?

EDIT: We'll also have to discuss Lylat as a potential stage pick in MUs. The ledges are so much better now, and I think the platforms could benefit Fox.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

I vote Kirby for discussion again :D

 

[Skarfelt]

Completely agree with the list, would love to discuss new Diddy, Sheik and Rosalina stuff. That said, though, it might be wise to wait a little bit for more patch adjustment before we analyse the new matchups?

 

[Foster J.]

Completely agree with the list, would love to discuss new Diddy, Sheik and Rosalina stuff. That said, though, it might be wise to wait a little bit for more patch adjustment before we analyse the new matchups?

Likely, we're in for an update on the 28th at least, who knows if it brings anything extra, besides the option to finally acquire

 

[DEHF]

I think this is a good idea with the characters that have changed, regarding the ones we've discussed.

In order of priority that should be discussed again, (imo):
(nerfs all over)
(Bair nerf)
(slight Luma HP nerf)
(Backthrow KB and Spindash damage nerf)
(slight nerf to Fireball)
(small change to B-throw)
(knockback increase in Side-B)
(notable buffs to F-air)
(his shield now blocks blaster shots [!] and his jab cancel infinite was removed)
(same as above with shield, also Dsmash KB reduced on first hit)
(less endlag with inhale and hammer, buffed D-throw, Usmash, and Dsmash)
(buffs to F-tilt and missiles)

Being discussed
(tome drops and wind jabs)
(changes to Side-B, U-throw, Up-B, F-air)

Did I miss any?

EDIT: We'll also have to discuss Lylat as a potential stage pick in MUs. The ledges are so much better now, and I think the platforms could benefit Fox.

I feel like Diddy, Link, Sheik, maybe Kirby and Sonic should be rediscussed. All the other match ups seem pretty much the same overall.

 

[M@v]

I've played vs Robin way more than anyone else in the country. (Did you know my area has like 5 male Robin mains? Not just Robins, MALE Robins).

I actually think is an even matchup. Despite having a reflector, Fox actually has a hard time dealing with robin's projectiles. Reflecting arcfire pretty much does nothing for you. Robin hits hard; you can die early quite easily vs the Levin sword moves. The reason this MU is even instead of Fox's favor is Robin's edgeguarding. Fox has 0 safe options to get back on stage if Robin Arcfires the edge, especially if its a stage without platforms. You do any sort of getup arcfire will hit you. If you roll, a smart robin will be waiting in punish range behind the arcfire to react and punish. Arcfire will hit you while you are on the ledge if you wait too long as well. Jump off to avoid it? Better not regrab because you will have no invincibility. You may be able to jump up and shine, but if robin's as close as he should be you are getting fsmashed, nosferatud, upaired, or something of the sort. Pretty much the only way out besides getting back on stage if an arcfire is out is to go for platforms or go high, and good Robins will be waiting with Levin sword/arcthunder/thoron in hand knowing you have to do that. Your best bet honestly is to try to get on stage before arcfire even gets out, and NEVER play vs robin on a stage without platforms you can use to get back (Battlefield and smashville are 2 great options).

I know I'm sounding all doom and gloom about this matchup, but Fox has tools too. Robin is one of the characters double jab fully locks, and Robin's recovery is easy for Fox to edgeguard. Nairs and ledge trumps do wonders vs Robin. If he goes high, free upair. You can also shine his elwind if he goes for an elwind spike and spike him instead (you need to be fast and predict it for it to work honestly). I got a Jv3 on a robin once, and took a stock that way

 

[moyshe]

Here is the mural without any MU numbers on it! Anyone is free to use it, though I guess now its missing Lucas and Mewtwo.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Attention all Fox players, Rosalina is now analyzing Fox at her match-up analysis thread. From now until the end of 4/29, you can bring up your thoughts on the Rosalina vs. Fox match-up.

Just keep note that at Rosalina's sub-forum, the match-up will be under Rosalina's perspective.

 

[Ridel]

Alright might as well give my opinions on the Fox Wario MU.

I'd say it's probably around 60-40 in Fox's favor. Need to do a little more research but from what I could dig up Fox's speed and fast-falling properties seem to put this in his favor. Fox's speed seems to be the most obvious thing that puts this MU in his favor; he has an easy time rushing down Wario with his good dash grab and N-Air mix-ups. Fox's can easily avoid or even snuff out Wario's Bike approaches by jumping or timing a Dash-Attack. Wario is also complete combo food, so Fox's U-Tilts and Jabs can catch a lock Wario easily with no real way for the Wario player to escape. Fox's fast-falling nature actually seems to be a good thing in this MU for the most part. Wario has pretty poor combo game to begin with, doing best against mid-weight to lighter characters. Fox's faster falling speed means that stuff like N-Air into F-Air don't work until higher percents, and still wont really set-up kill options unless you can time a Waft perfectly. This sounds really bad for Wario but he does a have a few things that allow him to challenge Fox. Bite and Waft are really important tools as Wario against Fox. Bite can halt any of Fox's approaches if used correctly, and can give Wario stage control. Bite can also be used to stop Fox Illusion if used to recover to center stage. The Waft can be deadly to Fox because most of his reliable kill moves are his Smashes. Fox's Smashes come out quick but do have a considerable amount of end-lag so if Fox hits any of his Smashes on shield, Wario can jump out of his shield and Waft for free.

More input from Fox and Wario mains would be greatly appreciated but as it stands right now I'd say 60-40 in Fox's favor.

 

[DavemanCozy]

@SpaceDong requested to discuss Pikachu, so we'll start discussion on him this week.

Additionally, Diddy, Sheik and Link will be re-discussed with the patch here; the nerfs to the monkey, Sheik's b-air and the removal of Link's jab lock need to be talked about. I wanted to discuss Sonic as well, but there are already loads of characters this week.
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You may continue to talk about any of the previous MUs if you would like, that's alright with me.

I'll be done exams by this Wednesday, so I'll have time to properly link advice said to the MUs starting Thursday this week.

Thanks so much @ moyshe that banner is amazing!

 

[DrCoeloCephalo]

Alright might as well give my opinions on the Fox Wario MU.

I'd say it's probably around 60-40 in Fox's favor. Need to do a little more research but from what I could dig up Fox's speed and fast-falling properties seem to put this in his favor. Fox's speed seems to be the most obvious thing that puts this MU in his favor; he has an easy time rushing down Wario with his good dash grab and N-Air mix-ups. Fox's can easily avoid or even snuff out Wario's Bike approaches by jumping or timing a Dash-Attack. Wario is also complete combo food, so Fox's U-Tilts and Jabs can catch a lock Wario easily with no real way for the Wario player to escape. Fox's fast-falling nature actually seems to be a good thing in this MU for the most part. Wario has pretty poor combo game to begin with, doing best against mid-weight to lighter characters. Fox's faster falling speed means that stuff like N-Air into F-Air don't work until higher percents, and still wont really set-up kill options unless you can time a Waft perfectly. This sounds really bad for Wario but he does a have a few things that allow him to challenge Fox. Bite and Waft are really important tools as Wario against Fox. Bite can halt any of Fox's approaches if used correctly, and can give Wario stage control. Bite can also be used to stop Fox Illusion if used to recover to center stage. The Waft can be deadly to Fox because most of his reliable kill moves are his Smashes. Fox's Smashes come out quick but do have a considerable amount of end-lag so if Fox hits any of his Smashes on shield, Wario can jump out of his shield and Waft for free.

More input from Fox and Wario mains would be greatly appreciated but as it stands right now I'd say 60-40 in Fox's favor.

I've played against a few skilled Foxes and I'd have to agree with this. The stupid space animal is too fast even while he's falling. He's hard to combo, but if he tries to approach recklessly, he just gets Chomped. While Fox can't reflect the Bike, it's still hard to land on him at times. I feel like the matchup takes a little more effort, but isn't impossible.

 

[moyshe]

Wario Fox MU is really easy for Fox. Fox's nair hits Wario out of his bike and hes open to combo'd after. His aerials are probably the most deadliest asset against Fox but if Fox is above him or below him theres not much wario can do besides air dodge.

 

[Skarfelt]

Don't have experience with Pika but I'll talk about the other ones.

50:50
Diddy's neutral is still very strong and demands respect with high range, godlike grab game and bananas - however, he has trouble KO'ing us now and Fox can give Diddy a very hard time when Diddy tries to land. Jabs are great against Diddy and combo into Down Smash at the ledge for consistent KOs. This matchup might swing slightly into our favour but we still have problems outpacing Diddy and giving his shield the respect it deserves.

45:55
It might be 40:60 in Sheik's favour but I'm not sure. I forget who it was who said it but someone said this matchup is even at lower levels then in Sheik's favour at higher levels of play and I totally agree. Sheik's grab game on us is so godlike and it's hard to abuse any of our normal strengths - jabs, up tilts and generic combo follow ups are less safe than we'd like so you have to adapt to play Sheik's game which is, unfortunately, a very strong game. On the plus side, Sheik can't abuse our low weight much. In my more recent games with @ArikadoX I've found that recovering low with Fox Fire is really difficult for Sheik to punish whereas Side B is linear and much easier for her. Need to play this a bit more but Sheik still solidly wins.

55:45
Again, might be 60:40 in our favour but I haven't played this enough. Link lost his jab cancel but gained (afaik) an Up Smash that actually links against Fox which is a pretty good tool. Link can zone us out fairly well but once we get in, he gets combo'd for years. Fox just has to respect Link's obscene KO power and punish his laggy options as always. We can dictate the neutral and scare him out of doing things he doesn't want to which is exactly how Fox wants to be playing in any matchup.


Would like to discuss Sonic at some point. I'm pretty sure it's still in Sonic's favour although only slightly.

 

[Foster J.]

I have little experience with but haven't faced any amazing players up to this point, and thus only playing mid level Pikas.
45:55
It's very similar to the Sheik MU, meaning at higher levels Pikachu is like 40:60 in his favour. Pikachu has a lot of priority (especially on any tail attacks) and long meaty hitboxes on most of his aerials, his grab game is also real, and together with the fact his Dash Attack will kill you, makes it easier for him to finish Fox off. Pikachu doesn't have an insane string like Sheik though, but regardless is very solid in his follow ups. It's very important to note this is a character you can't illusion into stage, as Volt can hit you, and his running Usmash is strong and more disjointed than ours

Another thing to note is his small hurtbox, so ftilting high can miss him.
Hidden OP as usual, even Leffen plays him now!

45:55
Just like what Skarfelt said, this MU is in Sheik's favour, any fast faller eats her early comboes, we're trapped in the Ftilt till 30-40 which is stupid as hell, and her grabs lead into more solid options than ours will ever do. She has good air speed, so her DI is strong, but she can spam Nair OoS and really do a number on Fox's approach options.
If we're talking a good Sheik, the MU is likely as said before 40:60 or even higher. I have the pleasure of being rekt by Mr. R's Sheik bi-weekly, so it's a hard MU where your best options for winning comes from punishing Sheik, but as her Moves are safe on shield and yours aren't it's not my cup of Tea.

45:55
This MU has changed in Fox's favour, as Diddy lost his best killing option on Fox, we're able to play the waiting game more, however Diddy still maintains his options in B-reversing, popgun cancelling, and the banana. You're likely to see more Fairs from a Diddy player, and thus have a small window of punishing him from a powershield into Usmash, other than that he-retains his killing Bthrow, and Uthrow to Uair is still a thing but easier to dodge.
Alas, I'm always envious of those with decent throw setups.

60:40
His jabs are still in the game though, long and decent, but he still suffers from camping in most cases, and we can still "drop" out of his Usmash with some DI. Nothing has really changed in this MU imo, and we're still able to combo him nicely.

 

[Pikabunz]

It might be because I play against Megafox, but I think the Pikachu/Fox match-up is like 40:60 in Fox's favor. Fox's speed allows him in get in on Pikachu very easily or punish a lot of Pikachu's moves. Fox can recover against Pikachu just fine as long as he's not below the stage. If you don't want to die against Pikachu, then just never be in the air to where he can upsmash your landing, but if you're ever in that position just try to shine stall to throw off his timing or side b away.

 

[Thor]

Pikachu's bair kinda destroys Fox's recovery in my experience - Pikachu has high vertical burst mobility and so he can attempt to jump in the way of Illusion with a bair [or fair] to send you flying back out [on hard reads I think even dair works due to its reasonable duration - nair of course does but it's not as strong for it in my opinion], and if you're ever using Fire Fox below the stage, correctly timed fastfall bair (as Fire Fox starts moving) has the effect of meteor smashing Fox [due to autolink angles and being interrupted causing Pikachu to be hit out of bair and Fox to move downward quickly]. Fox definitely can mix it up and make himself rather tricky to gimp, but I don't think Fox's recovery is as good in this MU as it is in other MUs.

Pikabunz mentioned escaping landing near Pikachu with side+b - Fox can attempt to side+B away if airborne, but if Pikachu makes the guess he can QA to where your side+b will land [due to no shortening of Illusion in this game] and then punish you anyway, so be wary of doing that too often.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

There is a very important thing that Fox has going for him in the Pika MU which is the ability to punish any QA that goes through his shield. I definitely took a lot of damage (And deaths) vs DEHF because i QA'd like I can vs every other character and got bodied for it.

I would still say 60:40 in Pika's favor due to the ridiculous ability to edgeguard and also combo off-stage. Both characters have high kill potential in their U-smashes and have other ways to kill, but Pikachu gets hits more consistently and drags you off-stage with the potential to kill you at any % (Huzzah for Bair spikes!). Fox is more of a mental pressure type of character than an actual pressure type of character, meaning it is really easy for fox to get in your head. However, that shouldn't really count towards a matchup cuz that's player strength.

 

[luke_atyeo]

Esam your oppinions shouldnt count towards any matchup because I dont think you understand what its like to not be a god at smash. sakurai is gonna nerf you ~mV

(his shield now blocks blaster shots [!] and his jab cancel infinite was removed)
(same as above with shield, also Dsmash KB reduced on first hit)

you sure about that? First off it wasnt really a true infinite, and secondly I thought it didnt get patched out at all?

 

[DavemanCozy]

you sure about that? First off it wasnt really a true infinite, and secondly I thought it didnt get patched out at all?

Based on the patch notes from the thread in this site and Reddit, Link's jab IASA frame is now 29 instead of 19. So he should not have the infinite jab cancel anymore.

--

I think that Fox vs Pikachu onstage is about even, with Fox possibly having slightly better stage control than Pikachu: we don't really mind Thunder jolt while onstage, we have faster dashing speed and slightly better fox-trots, and notable better perfect pivot (which leads into any attack or defensive roll/shield). Like ESAM mentioned, Quick Attack is punishable on shield (just remember that Pikachu can potentially hit you two times zipping back and forth with it). I noticed that when I played against PikaPika! at Squad Boys (he still beat me), a grab to F-throw offstage or D-throw to start a juggle is a great way of punishing it, you can also U-tilt him.

It's worth noting that at around ~110%, jab -> jab -> Usmash will secure the KO on Pikachu.

Where we lose the MU is offstage: both Fox and Pikachu can meteor with F-air and B-air respectively, but Pikachu has a much safer time doing this due to his recovery being better than ours. Pikachu going offstage for the B-air spike isn't putting himself at much risk, whereas Fox going offstage to go for the F-air spike puts us below the stage forcing us to use Fire Fox, which is a very bad position to be in. Pika's air movement is also better than Fox's and his air attacks have more preferable knock-back, letting Pikachu go for much ballsier edge guards than Fox can (we don't really have a lot of offstage presence in general). The best way to go is to mix it up between shine-stalling, Side-Bing and Fire Foxing, and to avoid ending up below the stage.

In terms of stages, definitely ban Lylat Cruise: Pikachu gains a lot from this stage. We lose laser pressure on the sides while his thunder jolt doesn't care, Pikachu can use the stage tilting to autocancel his attacks even better, QA benefits him even more with the sloped ground.

As an aside from last week, Lylat is a stage you shouldn't take Wario to either: bike doesn't care for the slope and he has a very easy time auto-cancelling his attacks with the sloped ground.

 

[luke_atyeo]

ah, yeah I did some digging of my own and you are right, that sucks the ****.
Why nerf link :'<

 

[Dumbfire]

See 7 hours and 25 minutes here, where Larry plays Scizor:
http://www.twitch.tv/chazostatue/b/651359461

Those two play a lot and Scizor is one of our best. That's what Fox vs Link looks like when the Fox knows what he's doing.

Esam your oppinions shouldnt count towards any matchup because I dont think you understand what its like to not be a god at smash. sakurai is gonna nerf you ~mV

you sure about that? First off it wasnt really a true infinite, and secondly I thought it didnt get patched out at all?

It wasn't an infinite on any character, just a jab lock on certain characters from certain percents. We can't jab1 into anything anymore now; only jab2 cancels if we feel ballsy. (To avoid those, just walk away: we have like 2 frames of advantage or something, and our fastest move is frame 7.)

 

[DavemanCozy]

Thanks everyone, really like that this thread keeps getting all this amazing advice. I'll be working on compiling the info together soon, promise! School ends, but full time jobs begin

I've updated the thread, Villager, Wii Fit, and Lucario, + Sonic post-patch:
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Cheers!

 

[Antonykun]

hallo Foxes The Swordfighter boards are having a discussion on Fox while i know that Swordfighter is a very obscure character it still would not hurt to take a look and maybe post something.
http://smashboards.com/threads/swor...rently-discussing-diddy-sheik-and-fox.380027/

 

[Foster J.]

hallo Foxes The Swordfighter boards are having a discussion on Fox while i know that Swordfighter is a very obscure character it still would not hurt to take a look and maybe post something.
http://smashboards.com/threads/swor...rently-discussing-diddy-sheik-and-fox.380027/

I doubt anyone has any experience against Sword-fighter though.

 

[Skarfelt]

Eh, our resident hipster maXy plays him but Fox solidly wins the matchup. Swordsman can hoo-hah us but Swordsman's KO power is so utterly awful that racking up damage at low percentage doesn't really matter. We get combos for days, KO setups for days and there's nothing really to make this matchup anything less than 60:40 in our favour, probably 65:35.

 

[DavemanCozy]

My bad guys, I did not share this thread in the other character boards for the previous weeks MUs (my posts didn't go through, they stayed as drafts). I apologize, I'll be leaving the discussion for this week the same as last weeks to make up.

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[M@v]

I think villager is super free for Fox in a normal layout; just reflect all the things. It really is that simple. Even if he pockets some of them, he can't pocket everything. Get good at reading his pockets/pocket releases/spam and this mu will become a lot easier for you.

However, I do want to hear what people think of this mu vs custom villager, since he's, erm, all the "rage" at custom tourneys, if you catch my drift. I'll get to the other 3 in a bit; I have a good Lucario and good Sonic in my region so I have a lot of exp vs those two.

 

[Skarfelt]

I completely missed we'd even updated this so I apologise as well. Can't really comment on Killager/WFT. I'd imagine we win but mish.

55:45
This matchup is just annoying as hell, to be frank. We absolutely destroy Lucario in the neutral, beat all of his options but because we're so damned light he can KO us by looking at us funny. We still win, for sure - jab lock is infinite, combos into Up Smash and Lucario's neutral is nothing to be even remotely scared of. The only reason this isn't 60:40 is that Lucario can just instakill you. At higher levels this is probably 60:40 or even 65:35.

45:55
Eh... Sonic is still fine to be honest, Back Throw's nerf wasn't gigantic and his neutral still forces us to play his game - something Fox doesn't have to do with any other character in the whole game. I was chatting to Ixis about this matchup and he said that Fox has to be at that comfortable range where he can pressure Sonic with jabs, grabs and tilts, basically. With customs on, this matchup is even because Blaster2 beats Spin Dash.

 

[Foster J.]

I haven't faced any villagers worth mentioning, but after having seen Ranai obliterate the competition in Japan, I feel that this is a character that is going to be extremely elusive in terms of playstyle, and thus not very easy to have written down on paper, my suggestion is to post pone villager until later.


60:40
Is a strange match up, the fact that WFT covers herself in hitboxes makes it hard to just roll behind and punish her, one can argue that the fact there's a whistle every time she does a smash attack is a handicap as it reveals her move, but at the same time she's good at playing the camping came offstage with the football ledge shenanigans, however Fox is very potent at punishing that with a Dsmash or Dtilt.
Over all she's got her sun salutation which can kill, a somewhat long grab, and a great Nair together with a loot of footsies like Dtilt that hides her hurtbox.
In general she's easy to keep comboing, has end lag on her smash attacks, and doesn't posses a potent killing throw, but Deep Breath will make her attacks deadlier, and she'll likely use that off stage where Fox isn't as potent.

If and when she goes offstage, it's important to reflect and or shield the pokes and punish her for grabbing the ledge without invincibility.
Avoid her jab fisher, as being buried can set you up to a Uair or Smash attack.

55:45
Lucario's neutral early on is weak, but as he gains rage it becomes a real problem with aura, this MU is generally centred about Lucario playing passively when he reaches the 80%s and starts spamming Aura sphere and Force Palm.
The force palm of Lucario can probably KO fox at 90 if he's at 100% himself, I've been Bair'd from the center of the stage at 66 against a 110 something Lucario and even with DI I perished.
This match up is all about the first stock, if he takes the lead he'll camp you out with spheres.

The best option to dealing with Lucario imo is edge guarding him, Sheik is able to just hang from the ledge and spam Bair to continue to deny him the ledge and he's forced to take a risk to recover unto stage directly from Extreme Speed.

Now Fox's Bair isn't the best at edge guarding like Sheiks, but it's doable, if not you can always try to wait for his ledge option and either jab jab Dsmash him when he's to the side of the ledge, or try trumping him and then having him regain the ledge for a Dsmash, or watch him recovery unto the stage and do a running Usmash.

In general, I find that most Lucario's are going to play the rolling and dodging game a lot here, due to Fox not having solid throw killing options means that Lucario will likely shield a lot and roll away, or fake jump and b reverse an Aura sphere or Force Palm.

A good Lucario makes this feel like 40:60 the second he gets rage, so this is a MU I feel we have to play aggressively

 

[Niala]

60:40

Coming from the perspective of a Wii Fit player, this match-up feels insanely difficult. Quite possibly her worst MU after Kirby/Olimar/Pika, and that's saying something because she can't even hit those three. It feels like a harder version of the Sheik MU because of Fox's hyper aggressive pressure, the main differences being you actually win the projectile game, and unlike Sheik you can actually kill us.

So yeah, the reflector. It takes away a lot of options-- fully charged SS doesn't have a lot of use as a scare tactic in this MU, and will have to be reserved for a combo finisher, because using it to zone or approach is out of the question. It does nothing to Header, keep that in mind, though. I see a lot of Fox players try to reflect the soccer ball, and I want you to know that it accomplishes nothing. The move (Header) actively makes her jump, and in fact most WFT players will SH>Header because it cancels the landing animation. The reflector sends the ball back at the trajectory it hit at, so the ball will just go over her head in the neutral, don't waste your time and get punished for it.

Wii Fit's approaches are quite stifled in this MU, as well. RTAC likely doesn't go under anything except USmash and lasers, she can't use SS to gain footing in the neutral, and with her lack of range on aerials (except RAR bair) and poor dash attack, she has to resort to a lot of grabs. She does have a true combo on Fox out of grabs at early percents (UThrow>Uair.) Most WFTs like to use Nair a lot in the neutral because it sets up really well-- this isn't as true against Fox. He's so heavy that landing a Nair early doesn't actually give her much of as much of an advantage as it normally would, although it DOES make her kill setups on him significantly more effective and have larger percent ranges, (Nair1>usmash, for example.) Still, don't underestimate it's power-- Nair>reverse ftilt>header is a true combo on fox and it deals 46%. It's also not hard at all to hit the first Nair to start it, so you need to respect her powerful combo game on your own approaches. Her wonky hitboxes (things like actually having a reverse jab[tybasedsakurai]) can make your life hell, and because of them she has a lot of options in the neutral game you might not be expecting.

There are two main ways you'll lose this MU: letting her get in your zone in the neutral, or getting gimped, and trust me when I say gimping Fox with WFT is not hard. Both his Illusion and FireFox can be interrupted by the header spike, and trying to sweetspot the ledge can get you rammed with a reverse Fair really easily. You need to mixup your recovery really well to make it back to the stage in this MU, otherwise you will get dunked.

I don't know a whole lot about Fox's Barrel of tricks (huehue) but I can safely say that what I do know of works well on WFT. All of the jab-cancel tech and utilt chaining are both fully effective against her. Her weight is ideal and she has no combo breaker, simple as that. Just don't challenge her from above, USmash kills SUPER early AND has invincibility, and Uair beats like everything you can do in the air.

Customs on might make this match a 50:50 although I'm not really sure since I haven't played it. It seems to me having access to Jumbo Hoops and Sweeping SS make Fox's day really bad. Sweeping SS has the advantage of having a relatively set knockback, and that you don't need to charge it for it to take full effect. She can just throw them at you knowing that the reflector isn't nearly as dangerous as it is for the the regular SS does and will likely shove you off-stage, where Jumbo Hoops just carries you to the blast zone or she can go for a spike. Jumbo Hoops and Huge Header work nicely together because they provide long, active hitboxes for her that can mess with the aggression, but Weighted Header also works as a combo tool and improves her neutral significantly.

And that's that. You're definitely favoured IMO, but WFT is really unconventional and volatile. She can still take the game with smart play and good reads, Fox just has a lot of advantage in the neutral.

 

[Antonykun]

I think villager is super free for Fox in a normal layout; just reflect all the things. It really is that simple. Even if he pockets some of them, he can't pocket everything. Get good at reading his pockets/pocket releases/spam and this mu will become a lot easier for you.

However, I do want to hear what people think of this mu vs custom villager, since he's, erm, all the "rage" at custom tourneys, if you catch my drift. I'll get to the other 3 in a bit; I have a good Lucario and good Sonic in my region so I have a lot of exp vs those two.

for the record villager wins against that strategy, his projectiles are just there so you wont move which is what you are doing anyways by reflecting. the correct way of dealing with villager's projectiles as fox is to avoid them while closing in on villager

 

[M@v]

Fox is one of the best counter campers in the game, meaning he can force campers to approach when they don't want to. I can rack damage up on villagers with lasers while denying them damage with reflects. Villagers will never use pocket on lasers, as it will only do very minor damage. They will only go for pockets on things I reflect back at them. At the same time, if the fight gets close, I still think Fox wins close up too, especially considering that he can reflect some of Villager's hardest hitting moves (Fsmash,tree). Axe and upair can be hard to deal with at time for fox though, and per usual, he's an easy target when trying to recover. Reflecting projectiles only does so much while you are trying to recover, since you need to get back on stage eventually.

 

[Antonykun]

Fox is one of the best counter campers in the game, meaning he can force campers to approach when they don't want to. I can rack damage up on villagers with lasers while denying them damage with reflects. Villagers will never use pocket on lasers, as it will only do very minor damage. They will only go for pockets on things I reflect back at them. At the same time, if the fight gets close, I still think Fox wins close up too, especially considering that he can reflect some of Villager's hardest hitting moves (Fsmash,tree). Axe and upair can be hard to deal with at time for fox though, and per usual, he's an easy target when trying to recover. Reflecting projectiles only does so much while you are trying to recover, since you need to get back on stage eventually.

yeah fox's disadvantage is literally the only thing making this mu an easy win

 

[chaos_Leader]

Responding to this invitation on the Lucario boards:

Hello masters of Aura! I'm coming from the Lylat System (the Fox Boards), can't seem to find an MU thread. We've started preliminary discussion on the Lucario vs Fox MU;
vs

Click here to join us and see you there!

I use both Lucario and Fox, so I believe I can bring a lot to the table for this discussion.

On the Lucario player's side, a good opposing Fox player can be exceptionally troublesome for Lucario. Fox has the capacity to apply pressure on Lucario like a vice-grip, keeping him locked in combos, and with plenty of excellent up-close tools for high mobility bait/punish harassment. This combined with Fox's not too shabby KO power, and the fact the reflector limits the uses for Aura Sphere, can cause Lucario some grief. (on a side not, Fox can, if he really wants to, force a camping Lucario into an approach)

When I'm taking Lucario against an opposing Fox, I'm going to be playing a fairly passive game. I'm going to try to lure Fox into an aggressive option that I can punish. Overall, my MO early on in this matchup is to punt Fox over the edge, forcing him into a recovery situation, and lay down the hurt on Fox as he comes back.

Fox's very quick fall speed crates a strong imperative for him to recover, and puts a small absolute limit on what Fox can/can't do in that time. This imperative and constraint during recovery make it far easier to anticipate Fox's next moves and prepare a dangerous interception than it ever is when Fox on/over the stage with his excellent mobility. Granted, this concept of the recovery imperative applies across the entire Smash Bros roster, but Fox's movement characteristics and linear recovery options make it especially more easy for Lucario to intercept when compared to much of the cast. I can't tell you for example how many Fox side-B recoveries I've interrupted with Aura Sphere, or up-Bs that I've nailed with Lucario's D-air.

Other than that, Fox's light weight also makes him especially susceptible to a wide array of disgustingly low% KOs if the Fox player is unfortunate enough to be caught by them.

I notice one poster above me suggests edge guarding is a great way to deal with Lucario. I can tell you that it won't be nearly as easy as that. The fact that Lucario floats really well, and Extreme Speed can extend to ridiculous lengths as Aura builds, means the Lucario player can time/space their recovery pretty much wherever/whenever they want. An experienced Lucario, who knows their ExtremeSpeed well, can make use of its adjustable trajectory to arc around an edge guard and still land on the stage with both feet on the ground for near-negligible lag. They can also potentially use the large hitbox at the end of ExtremeSpeed to make it really hazardous to edge guard against. I've stage-spiked a fair number of edge guarding opponents with ExtremeSpeed this way, while arcing the recovery around the edge guard option I could read them using.

I feel Fox benefits the most in the matchup by being aggressive/proactive in the match. A very quick (and smart) Fox player can use Fox's excellent mobility and up-close game to disorient a Lucario player with feints and bait-punish pressure gameplay (and then stack on the damage), which is where Lucario tends to struggle. As others have said before though, you still have to be really careful as the match goes on. Experienced Lucario players (or at least I, anyway) tend to be careful and patient as a saint when it comes to taking their punish, and the aura buildup can do absolutely disgusting things against Fox if he gets hit. I said it somewhere else, that the moment you let your guard down vs. an excellent Lucario is the moment you've lost the match.

I personally feel this Matchup is either even, or 55/45 one way or the other. Both characters have the means to screw the other one over, yet the advantages one has over the other are offset by disadvantages of comparable weight.

 

[DavemanCozy]

I personally think that Lucario v. Fox is 60:40. I used to think this was bad for Fox... until I realized Lucario's neutral game got laggy and he can be jab locked. Like, really easily. Fox's jab lock basically wobbles him, there's nothing Lucario can do to escape.

What makes Lucario dangerous in this MU is his ability to KO very early: Fox at 50% and Lucario at 115% means we're both at KO percent. Lucario's range also increases as the match goes on. I usually play this MU aggressively, baiting something out of Luke and capitalizing on it. It's key to stick on Lucario when you get close to him, watch his options carefully so you can properly shield / fox-trot away or follow up in time to what Lucario chooses to do. Luke's neutral game is very unsafe on shield at lower percents, and starts becoming more threatening as Aura builds up and he starts getting disjoints.

Again, why I think Lucario gets utterly ruined is jab-lock: it's free damage that is started from a jab, and combo's into U-smash when you want to finish him. It's unfortunate for him, but that's how it is. You can get a KO on Luke or build damage as soon as you catch him with a jab.

--

I agree with Naila, I used to play this MU with AvariceX until he dropped Wii Fit for Diddy / Meta Knight. The MU is in Fox's favour,
60:40

Wii Fit's advantage in this MU is her crouching stance is akin to that of Zero Suit's, she's not really bothered by lasers and she can duck under some of our tilts and our first jab (not the second one).

Just like we have U-tilt with Fox when we're facing our back to our opponents, Wii Fit Trainer has jab and F-tilt. Many characters can be overwhelmed when they're facing away since they don't have many options, but Fox and WFT happen to have these moves to cover their backs.

The back of her jab has respectable KB that will send us offstage at higher percents and comes out low, it will be hitting Fox if you try crossing her up (not just with rolls, but with pivot grabs or even catch an empty tomahawk jump landing). Getting juggled by her is also a big problem, since her U-air and U-smash can beat everything Fox has to come down including D-air drill (unless she mispaces). I like to use Shine-stalling to mitigate getting tossed above by her.

When she burries you with her neutral jab combo, the first instinct a lot of players have is to break out free as fast as possible. This is not always the optimal thing to do: chances are the Wii Fit Trainer will be expecting you to do just that and jump to catch you with U-air, B-air, or F-air. These are powerful moves, and against the light-weight fast-falling character Fox is this won't be a fun time. It's a 50/50 situation here: if you stay burried, she might just smash you before you break out in time, but if you wiggle instantly she might expect that and aerial you to your doom.

The disadvantage Wii Fit has is her bad range in most of her moves and the ones with range have punishable ending lag. She has to get in our face to hit us. Why I think Fox wins though is really due to speed: he's faster in movement, neutral, and onstage in general, she doesn't have anything to escape his pressure. Offstage Wii Fit wins, as is usually the case in all of Fox's MUs, but otherwise Wii Fit has a tough time getting Fox off her.

 

[AnchorTea]

Wow! That Arwing flight was awesome, and it was free! Anyway...

Fox is very fast. So that makes it hard for Villager.

Fox can be a rushdown. So that makes it bad for Villager.

Fox has a reflector. So that makes it TERRIBLE for Villager.

70:30/ Copyright 2015


(If Villager has Counter Tree)

60:40/ Copyright 2015

---

Hope I can get another Arwing flight in the future...

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Wow! That Arwing flight was awesome, and it was free! Anyway...

Fox is very fast. So that makes it hard for Villager.

Fox can be a rushdown. So that makes it bad for Villager.

Fox has a reflector. So that makes it TERRIBLE for Villager.

70:30/ Copyright 2015


(If Villager has Counter Tree)

60:40/ Copyright 2015

---

Hope I can get another Arwing flight in the future...

You are joking right? You don't personally think that do you?

 

[Spirst]

So it seems like Fox is a character that Mewtwo appears to have some struggles with. Thus, the Mewtwo MU thread will be discussing Fox as part of this week's matchup discussion. I understand the character is young and the players some of you have played isn't necessarily representative of what the character is truly capable of but any input would be nice. Thanks.

<- Click to Teleport to the MU thread.

 

[M@v]

I need to try to record some of my friendlies vs @Phoenix_Dark for the Fox vs Sonic MU, especially since I don't think any of our tourney sets are recorded. It would be helpful to you guys here I think because we both know the matchup from each end extremely well, and we tend to go dead even with eachother in tournament sets. We are at the point where gimmicks almost never work on us in the mu, so our matches have a lot of standard, "this almost always works so you should use it a lot" content. I'm extremely confident in my abilities vs any other Sonic, as I'm sure he's just as confident vs any other Fox.

 

[Togii]

Hey, all you space animals; the Kirby boards are discussing the Fox matchup right now, and we'd really appreciate any input you guys might have. Here's a link: http://smashboards.com/threads/the-...sion-week-2-fox-pikachu-5-19-25.400052/page-2