Data All Aircraft Report! - Fox MU Discussion Thread

[Eripor]

50:50
A game of camping and patience. Reflector basically makes Fox difficult to outcamp, while the MU doesn't quite allow a Fox to go too aggressive (especially cuz if thrown offstage, that's a stock gone due to uair, bair, fsmash). Also, Villager's Nair does a good job anti aggro characters. However, in the camping game alone, lasers are likely to give a sufficient % lead for the win UNLESS Villager gets a stock first (which woUld force aggro play = Fox's potential disadvantage). Thus, this matchup seems pretty fair, to the advantage of either depending on the players.

60:40
Simply put, Fox is fast. WFT projectiles aren't scary at all, but he/she/it has good tilts and a jab for a slightly safe close range game. However, with significant endlag on most Smashes, as well as practically no Neutral game vs Fox nor any "Get outta my face" attacks, WFT loses out in most aspects of the MU. Again, Fox is limited to 60:40 cuz of gimpable recoveries.

55:45
Facing a similar issue, Lucario loses out to Fox's pressure game in the neutral. However, Aura and an excellent recovery make him an absolute death threat at higher %, while Foxes have to approach very carefully to close any set cuz of counter. In terms of range, I believe many of Lucario's hitboxes are disjointed (?), so a Fox has to overwhelm with speed to win, something he CAN do fairly well, just not all too well against a character that has solid defence. Let's not even mention the Aura sphere mindgame, but if refleted by Fox, Lucario can't do much about a returned projectioe except, maybe, shield.

45:55
Sonic has too many movement options to lose this one out. Although Fox IS in among the faster characters, he too has trouble catching Sonics (though not as much as others). In terms of range, they're fairly even, so Fox isn't overly rewarded for defensive play nor has that much room to defend anyway, while He may have a slight advantage where damage is involved. Damage can be added with the blaster, but Sonic wins the rushdown game and the FAF of lasers don't help, so Fox has to face the odd task of playing the defensive role. Tilts help in this, most especially pivot up tilts to catch approaches, but these need a lot of skill and precision. So, while Sonic doesn't have too big an advantage, in the end he definitely has one.

 

[DavemanCozy]

I've been very busy this month taking a summer course. I completely goofed and forgot about the MU thread.

I just came back from Toryuken 4 (Enthusiast Gaming Live) and witnessed Holy beat Ally in Grand Finals (his first win over his brother in 5 years). I got to talk with other Fox mains there, shout outs to @ SpaceDong he's put in a lot of work with Fox and levelled up crazy, one of the smoothest moving Foxes I've seen.

I've updated the MU thread. We'll start discussing the following characters:
vs
vs
vs
vs (re-discussion) requested by @ Dee-SmashinBoss

I'll start off by saying I don't think the Kirby MU changed that much, we can still run away and apply more pressure as his movement isn't that fast to catch us. He can still duck under lasers and some of our tilts, and like most of our matchups we are doomed when we're offstage, more-so with Kirby I feel since his b-air and n-air are meaty enough to gimp us.

The reason why I think this is bad for Kirby is mainly because we only need to tack on percent on Kirby and then run away for the rest of the match: it's lame, I know, you may say what you want about circle-camping but that's essentially possible against Kirby. We can use side-B to go to the other side quickly (and punish a mistimed aerial by Kirby just using SH side-B, to make matters worse for him), or run under him if he takes to the skies. A good Kirby will be reading your attempts to run away when he corners you so you don't camp him.

Moves to watch out for when he's approaching are his D-air, N-air, U-air, and F-air, all of which start strings for him and can lead into grabs. His N-air and F-air also have kb that will force us to tech at mid%, which Kirby can use to frame trap us. When you're approaching Kirby, moves to watch out for are D-tilt, U-tilt (like our U-tilt, it hits behind), and B-air which has good kb. All these moves are answers to our aerial and ground approaches, so it's important to not run in recklessly against Kirby and find openings.

One reason why I think this MU is even is because of Stone breaking our juggles: like with Yoshi, it's important to respect this and not chase him too far, otherwise we get down-b'd. Keep in mind it can also be baited, the main difference from Yoshi being that Kirby can interrupt Stone falling and act out with an aerial to hit us with.

This match can also be played campy by Kirby, because he can crouch under our lasers and just sit there. It becomes a stalemate in this situation: neither him nor us has any incentive to get close, our projectile is nullified by his crouch and he has nothing to approach us with since he can't crawl nor toss a projectile at us (unless he swallows and copies lasers). However, we don't really have that much trouble catching up to Kirby if he does get the lead, whereas we can make it more difficult for him when we run away.

Overall, I still feel this MU is fairly even despite the damage buffs, 55:45, and imo it's slightly in our favor mainly because it has the potential to become a lame stale mate by both characters but we have the movement advantage. Even if both choose to play it offensively, both characters have appropriate answers to each other, and both get KOd quite early (Fox offstage, Kirby due to pure lightness.

 

[M@v]

Going to Shuffle so I won't have a chance to post a long blurb right now, but Fox beats ZSS imho.

Here's a recent set of me vs a ZSS in tourney to give you a general idea of things that work/don't work for the matchup

Stages you want to strike vs ZSS:

3 stage starter list:
BF

5 stage starter list:
BF
T&C

Possible Bans to use:
Delfino* (Almost always want to ban this one (I don't in the set above though <.<')
T&C
BF
Halberd

Optimal Counter pick options:
Lylat cruise* (Probably ZSS's worst stage if you want to make it bad for ZSS, rather than good for you)
FD/Omega

Every other stage doesn't really give a huge extra advantage to just Fox or a huge nerf to ZSS. Halberd's weird because both characters get really dumb early kills off the top.

 

[Mr Moosebones]

@ DavemanCozy
Fox:BJr is most likely something like 60:40
Fox's advantages:
-extremely easy jab lock infinite
-ability to camp and evade with ease; lasers can rack up easy damage
-bjr is total combo fodder
-up smash is relatively unpunishable unless powershielded/predicted

BJr's advantages:
-substantial weight advantage, especially when hit from below, means he can use rage to net extremely early kills with proper predictions
-bjr is dominant offstage vs fox. Fox's only safe option to get back to stage is to hope his side B isnt read, as using it low offers bjr a multitude of easy punish options, and using it high almost always means eating an upsmash (or, if used really high, uair can kill early/ post up b hammer read = comically early death for fox). The speed of side B allows some saving grace, but if bjr is in position to punish before the move is used, fox is screwed.
-reflector is actually incredibly disadvantageous to use vs mechakoopa + cart approaches since the SA on the bottom of the cart allows bjr to drive right through the toy (taking only 2%) and punish.

BJr has to play way safer in neutral than is normally comfortable for him when he's against fox, considering fox's speed and evasion advantage makes him frustrating to chase down. Offstage bjr has all the tools to close out the stock, but thats a small window of opportunity compared to the amount of time bjr will be getting bopped in neutral. By no means unwinnable, but disadvantageous overall for bjr.

 

[pichuthedk]

Ok well saying that the Mu is bad for fox is not entirely true depending on how /when you look at it, for example at mid % s on both players zss can more then likely just straight up decide it's time for fox to die if she ever gets that FF nair into flip jump kick spike, but at high %s say 80 % on each fighter then it's in fox's favor at that point because of the threat of "oh so I just caught you for no reason with jab I think I'm a just jab lock you for a bit then up/downsmash cool? Ok"

It depends on what point in time you are fighting in the Mu. Despite the fact that I am Hella fraudulent and reckless since I know I am more then likely dead if jabbed at 75%+ I will play differently to avoid it much like anyone would.

Fox is slightly faster then zss and as much fun as up airing fox for days is he can combo us just as well since there is the up tilt and other low% combos.

Fox can generally only gimp her early at low % s if for some reason zss let's you do that FF fair off stage but even then she should have no excuse not to recover anyway via wall jumps, flip jump wall jumps ect

my reaction time is inconsistent but if I'm right zss can more than likely boost kick fox's side bs if the spacing /timing allows.

if your struggling with her down b implanting you , you should know that she won't hurt you without the kick (the animation where she just jumps off your head and carries on) if you throw out a move (most moves work) , or if you use things like shield or intangibility moves (dodges)

Don't let her go to bf you leave her without bf and delphino then zss is screwed because she has to take the gamble of banking on killing you with up bs vs your up smash if she cps HalbaRd.

%s you should be aware of and why
20-30 (on like bf) up air strings to boost kick on certain stages =a stock.

40-50 ish (scales with rage) if she b-throws you off stage she can spike you if your at certain ranges/di poorly

37%-50/60ish% FF nair-> flip jump spike
ends a lineage.


I don't know about other ZSS's but let me tell you laser resets are very real especially with how weird fox FFs but he's apparently light?

I know you guys have control over that mechanic as mains but pay a bit more attention to teching things even at low%s, I'm assuming you would rather be tech chased and grabbed -> d-throw -> up air strings instead of eat 2 downsmashes -> and up b or fsmash at mid percents that might kill.

Gonna edit this a bit later rough.
-Ryoko

 

[Mr Moosebones]

Yo I heard you're a fraud.

 

[Carotoking]

Which stages do you think are better to pick against a campy villager? And why?
I'm a fox main and i always have hard times against them, do you have any tips on how to deal?
Also, can you tell me what happen if i use the reflector below the stage when villager throws the bowling ball? I can't try it out

 

[DavemanCozy]

@ Mr Moosebones we should make a crew and call ourselves Fraud-tario. Thanks a ton for contributing guys

Which stages do you think are better to pick against a campy villager? And why?
I'm a fox main and i always have hard times against them, do you have any tips on how to deal?

I'll do you a different one and tell you the stages I don't take him to:
Starters: when 3, ban Smashville (the platform does more for him; he can run away with his setups and KO throws). When 5, ban Smashville and Lylat (because of the tilts, our lasers are less effective at forcing approaches).
CP's: I always ban Delfino (the only Villager I play here in my town knows his stuff in this stage, I've died to too many turnip drown spikes and bowling balls from the platforms, he can set up many trap situations with the different layouts).

I don't know how to deal with it in customs on, I've never done this mu in customs before. I do know that customs off he shouldn't be camping you: you have lasers to force approaches and damage his tree until it wilts. You also have a reflector to send back Lloyd rocket (though he can pocket it) and movement to work around these projectiles.

Keep in mind you don't have to be up in Villager's face all the time. If you've shot a few lasers at him and you're in the lead, there's no incentive for you to approach if he starts setting up his tree and rocket to camp you. He's the one losing the match, let him come to you.

Also, can you tell me what happen if i use the reflector below the stage when villager throws the bowling ball? I can't try it out

Fox will "reflect" the bowling ball, but it will keep falling down. So it won't harm you, but it will become your projectile at that point of making contact with the reflector. If another player happens to be under you (a very unlikely situation, but let's assume anyways), the bowling ball hitting them would count as your KO because the bowling ball was considered your projectile at that point.

Another projectile that comes from above and can be reflected like this is Pikachu's Thunderbolt (downB). Useful to know if he's using Thunder walls offstage to keep you from recovering or if he's thundering below the stage to get you away from the ledge.

 

[Mr Moosebones]

If you reflect BJr's cannonball as it's falling on its downward arc gravity gets a bit weird and its return trajectory is kind of like a steep yoshi egg. Idk why this happens, it looks funny as hell though.

 

[Carotoking]

@ Mr Moosebones we should make a crew and call ourselves Fraud-tario. Thanks a ton for contributing guys



I'll do you a different one and tell you the stages I don't take him to:
Starters: when 3, ban Smashville (the platform does more for him; he can run away with his setups and KO throws). When 5, ban Smashville and Lylat (because of the tilts, our lasers are less effective at forcing approaches).
CP's: I always ban Delfino (the only Villager I play here in my town knows his stuff in this stage, I've died to too many turnip drown spikes and bowling balls from the platforms, he can set up many trap situations with the different layouts).

I don't know how to deal with it in customs on, I've never done this mu in customs before. I do know that customs off he shouldn't be camping you: you have lasers to force approaches and damage his tree until it wilts. You also have a reflector to send back Lloyd rocket (though he can pocket it) and movement to work around these projectiles.

Keep in mind you don't have to be up in Villager's face all the time. If you've shot a few lasers at him and you're in the lead, there's no incentive for you to approach if he starts setting up his tree and rocket to camp you. He's the one losing the match, let him come to you.


Fox will "reflect" the bowling ball, but it will keep falling down. So it won't harm you, but it will become your projectile at that point of making contact with the reflector. If another player happens to be under you (a very unlikely situation, but let's assume anyways), the bowling ball hitting them would count as your KO because the bowling ball was considered your projectile at that point.

Another projectile that comes from above and can be reflected like this is Pikachu's Thunderbolt (downB). Useful to know if he's using Thunder walls offstage to keep you from recovering or if he's thundering below the stage to get you away from the ledge.

Thank you, my problem is that I have a really aggressive playstyle and i lose patience easily if they camp too much (i have the same problem with campy link). I know i need to play more defensive
How many lasers can take the tree?
About the reflector, actually i was wondering if that would be a good tool to avoid a death by bowling ball gimp. After i reflect it, do i have the time to recover without taking a second bowling ball?

 

[DavemanCozy]

If you reflect BJr's cannonball as it's falling on its downward arc gravity gets a bit weird and its return trajectory is kind of like a steep yoshi egg. Idk why this happens, it looks funny as hell though.

Maybe it happens because the cannonball changes direction when it's reflected while flying side-ways? The game might just think that the cannonball is supposed to go the other way despite going downwards. Hmm... this could actually make for janky team strats with the cannonball + reflector.

Thank you, my problem is that I have a really aggressive playstyle and i lose patience easily if they camp too much (i have the same problem with campy link). I know i need to play more defensive
How many lasers can take the tree?
About the reflector, actually i was wondering if that would be a good tool to avoid a death by bowling ball gimp. After i reflect it, do i have the time to recover without taking a second bowling ball?

I'm not sure how many lasers a tree can take, I know it's quite meaty though. The tree disappears on its own eventually though, and while it's disappearing it loses it's hurtbox, which means you can shoot / move through it while it's going through the wilting animation.

Regarding the bowling ball, I don't believe you would have time since you'd be below the stage and the Fire Fox startup would leave you open for a second bowling ball. Not to mention you'd be open to many other kinds of gimps besides another bowling ball from Villager (D-air turnip, stage spike, etc).

Instead of reflecting the bowling ball, I think you'll have a better time mixing up your recovery angles. In other words, mix it up between;

• Side-B to land on a platform (like in Battlefield) or land onstage
• Side-B to grab the ledge
• Angling Fire Fox to grab the ledge
• Angling Fire Fox and landing onstage / on a platform

Fox's recovery, while it covers good distance, is very linear and therefore easy to intercept if the opponent knows which angle you chose. It's key to be as unpredictable as possible with his recovery and mix up the ways in which you angle Fire Fox, shine-stall, and choose when to Fox Illusion. This is especially important against characters like Villager, who have powerful offstage presence.

EDIT: to clarify, it doesn't work exactly like reflecting a thunder: the bowling ball bounces slightly above upon being reflected, but then falls back down again.

 

[Carotoking]

@ Mr Moosebones we should make a crew and call ourselves Fraud-tario. Thanks a ton for contributing guys



I'll do you a different one and tell you the stages I don't take him to:
Starters: when 3, ban Smashville (the platform does more for him; he can run away with his setups and KO throws). When 5, ban Smashville and Lylat (because of the tilts, our lasers are less effective at forcing approaches).
CP's: I always ban Delfino (the only Villager I play here in my town knows his stuff in this stage, I've died to too many turnip drown spikes and bowling balls from the platforms, he can set up many trap situations with the different layouts).

Why do you think is better to ban smashville instead of final destination/omega? Aren't flat stages better for their projectile game?
I would choose battlefield but i'm pretty sure they always ban it, so the choose would be between smashville and omega
What do you think about Halberd? Could it be a good counterpick? There is a standing platform in the middle which can be good to avoid the spam, also the laser/cannonball/arm can force them to move if they stall too much near the ledge

 

[DavemanCozy]

Why do you think is better to ban smashville instead of final destination/omega? Aren't flat stages better for their projectile game?
I would choose battlefield but i'm pretty sure they always ban it, so the choose would be between smashville and omega
What do you think about Halberd? Could it be a good counterpick? There is a standing platform in the middle which can be good to avoid the spam, also the laser/cannonball/arm can force them to move if they stall too much near the ledge

This is mostly player preference and it's usually matchup specific for me, but on most MUs I prefer to go to the other starters instead of Smashville for game 1. I find that the smaller stage size and platform moving offstage doesn't benefit Fox as much as it benefits Villager. When this platform goes offstage, it gives him a chance to ride it offstage and set up a tree or reset to neutral. Going on the platform as Fox is risky, since he's light and can put Fox in a situation where Villager gets a B-throw KO or set up a gimp situation. I don't think it's a bad Fox stage, but I see more benefits for Villager in it. I actually find that flat stages make it much harder to camp, there is no room to run away or use the platforms to escape.

Halberd is a very good Fox stage in general because the ceiling is low, and since Fox has powerful moves that KO from the top (U-smash, U-air), it's definitely a good stage for him.

 

[pichuthedk]

Yo I heard you're a fraud.

I heard I generally still out place you in bracket on my bad days just wait until my next Ryoko limit break is off cool down for out next major tournament., I'll make sure to take top 5 out of 80.

 

[Mr Moosebones]

I heard I generally still out place you in bracket on my bad days just wait until my next Ryoko limit break is off cool down for out next major tournament., I'll make sure to take top 5 out of 80.

On your bad days? Bro i work a double shift before every single weekly. Get at me.

 

[pichuthedk]

On your bad days? Bro i work a double shift before every single weekly. Get at me.

I sometimes do the same bro working from 3 am johns I feel you.wait if I'm at work why am I on smash boards?....

 

[Mr Moosebones]

I sometimes do the same bro working from 3 am johns I feel you.wait if I'm at work why am I on smash boards?....

Asking myself the same question. 3 more hours to go til im done for the day.

So uhh... Fox. Yeah.

 

[pichuthedk]

Asking myself the same question. 3 more hours to go til im done for the day.

So uhh... Fox. Yeah.

EFF fox and his up smash.

 

[Mr Moosebones]

EFF fox and his up smash.

Just play yoshi :3

 

[Foster J.]

Get a room you two.

 

[Mr Moosebones]

Someone's jealous.

 

[DavemanCozy]

... not even the Fox Mu thread is safe from Mr sheet-disturbing-bones. Plz keep it in the FB Ontario group, thx guys <3

Just play yoshi :3

I now think that Yoshi definitely beats Fox. Slush and all other Yoshis just saying their character is bad because they're secretely plotting the demise of the entire roster with their Barney main.

To stay on topic, quick ratios:
50:50 - I don't see how Fox beats ZSS the way Mav said, we may have a good onstage game even against ZSS but we are very very dead once we're offstage. Ryoko only posted three % ranges to watch out for.

65:35 - Fox wins, jab lock is very stupid against Bjr and he outspeeds him in everything. You don't even need a reflector to deal with his projectiles (and you really shouldn't be using it against him anyways, they're too slow for Bjr to be hit by them after reflection). The best thing Bjr has going with him is how he can KO earlier than us.

60:40 - Where all the Bowsers at? I think Fox wins for sure. Something about this matchup that Bowser likes is not being jab locked due to light-armor, and this also means none of our jab stuff works on him at low %s. Other than that, he's really big and very easy to start combo'ing once Fox gets a hit confirm (tilts, throws, nair, etc).

60:40 - I still think Fox wins this matchup, even with post-patch damage buffs

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

55:45 Seems legit, seriously characters with speed, despite Kirbys options, have just what they need with that alone, to deal with Kirby, not necessarily win against him, but makes it more of a patient MU, basically whoever makes the first mistake gets hurt.

Btw do you guys have a list of characters your discussing in order? If not may I request Zelda, or Peach?

 

[Equin0x]

Hey, all. I've been wanting to contribute to these for a while, and I co-main ZSS and Fox, so I figured now would be the best time to make my appearance.

vs. Most of this will be speculative and based on my experience with both characters, since there aren't many Foxes in my area or on Anther's Ladder or For Glory, and I usually choose to do ZSS dittoes when I encounter one of those. However, there are some points that need to be made.

Point 1: ZSS is a very fast faller that is also light, making it hard for Fox to combo with U-tilts or Double-Jab. U-tilts can work to combo into themselves, but only at low-mid %s like 30-40%

Point 2: All of ZSS's aerials outspace all of Fox's. B-air, F-air, U-air all outrange Fox's horizontal aerial approaches. Fox's best bet when approaching horizontally is to hope to trade with a F-air and catch them out of hitstun if you can. Otherwise, Fox's U-air is his most useful aerial as ZSS' only downwards aerial hitbox is D-air, which can be baited out and punished. This, however, should only work a few times, as ZSS can just as easily Flip Jump away or U-tilt after D-airing (this surprisingly does work because of D-air's admittedly stupid lack of landing lag and U-tilt's fast startup and intangibility). Fox's strength in this MU is catching ZSS' landings. Flip Jump can be punished after a certain point when the Kick becomes impossible or if Fox can read the Kick. ZSS will usually try to cover her landings with N-Air or B-air. Fox can SH FF over these and punish with N-Air or D-Air, but he MUST be wary of ZSS' U-tilt's fast startup and intangibility.

Point 3: ZSS' recovery has many facets to it: Flip Jump, Tether Grab, S-Special (A 2nd tether grab), high jump height, Boost Kick, and Flip Jump wall jumps among them, whereas Fox has only Fox Illusion, Fire Fox, and his jump. While ZSS's thether grab and Flip can be punished hard (FF F-air on either, U-air or B-air for Flip Jump), it makes for a 50/50 read, and even then the ZSS can simply use Boost Kick, which is harder to punish (Fox must use B-air to do so). ZSS can more easily punish Fox's recovery, using B-air, F-air, or N-air to catch either option on reaction. (This is speculation, but ZSS could potentially use Plasma Whip to do a semi-spike on Fox Illusion or Fire Fox, it'd need testing.)

Point 4: ZSS has very dangerous OOS options in U-tilt and Boost Kick to respond to Fox's Dash Attack, misspaced N-Air, or landing D-Air should the Fox attempt a kill setup on shield. I'd recommend Foxes try their best to perfectly space N-Air or B-air on shield, or simply back off and shoot lasers from outside of Flip Jump Kick range. In addition, Fox loses combos out of his grabs at around 70%, and has to rely on catching landings or gimps. This removes one very important shield-countering option.

Point 5: Fox has good OOS options as well, in U-tilt, Jab, jumping N-air, and jumping D-Air, but all of these require ZSS to misspace her on-shield options in B-Air, N-Air, or F-tilt. (Any use of ZSS' Flip Jump or Flip Jump Kick on shield should be a punish for Fox with an aerial or caught landing.) In addition, ZSS's Z-Air is the epitome of safe-on-shield, but if the ZSS gets too trigger-happy with it, Fox can use his speed and shorter-than-average frame to run under the tip, the damage-dealing portion, and punish with whatever he sees fit. (I'd recommend Dash Attack or Dash Grab at low %s for combos, U-Smash at mid-high %s.)

Point 6: ZSS' D-throw>Uair is an easy stock off of Fox at %s above 110% and below 140%, otherwise it either may not kill or may be escaped. Fox's answer to this is to read when the ZSS will fish for a grab and punish HARD. ZSS' grab frame data is her WORST flaw. I'd heard somewhere that a whiffed ZSS grab lasts about as long as Ganon's U-tilt. Short-hop to avoid the grab and charge up whatever smash attack or set-up whatever combo you want. In speculation, times to look for this grab should be 0-40% (getting grabbed at the later end of this range can mean U-Air>U-Air>Boost Kick and a stock) and 100-140%.

Point 7: All of ZSS' Special moves are near useless against a smart Fox. Paralyzer shot can be reflected at point-blank range for an easy punish, but any further than point-blank means the ZSS can just as easily avoid the reflected shot and punish you simultaneously with a Flip Jump Kick. (In speculation, I recommend jumping over the Paralyzer Shot or backing off and shooting lasers from outside of Flip Jump Kick range instead.) As far as I know, every ZSS will try to Flip Jump Kick a predicted Reflector at least once on every player or character that has one. Fox can read this and punish accordingly. Plasma Whip is a very niche move and can also be punished hard. Flip Jump and Flip Jump Kick are very often telegraphed and are not safe on shield. To my knowledge, just using Reflector will stop the Flip Jump, but not the Kick. If Fox can properly space his on-shield options and/or cross up ZSS in her shield, Boost Kick should not be a problem.

TL;DR: ZSS wins whenever she has control because her aerials outspace Fox's and Fox is much easier to toy with off-stage. ZSS has a slight advantage in the neutral because of her safe on-shield options and dangerous grab, but that grab is just as dangerous for her as it is to you (because of its lag). Fox, however, wins greatly as long as he keeps the pressure on. ZSS has few safe, and no unpredictable, landing options and absolutely dispises having the disadvantage while she is in the air. Fox, on the other hand, loves keeping his opponents in the air. IMO this is a very momentum-based matchup, but ZSS has more tools to keep momentum. Solid 60:40, maybe 55:45 ZSS' favor.

Please let me know your thoughts on my write-up, as this is the first major one I've ever done. Also, I'd love anybody to point out flaws in my argument, as I am far from well-versed in this MU.

 

[Agent Emerald]

On the Kirby v Fox Matchup, I'm pretty sure its 55:45 Fox's favor: this is a fight either side can lose if they slip up, but it's slightly more hazardous for Kirby since Fox has an easier time getting in and landing Kill options.

 

[pichuthedk]

... not even the Fox Mu thread is safe from Mr sheet-disturbing-bones. Plz keep it in the FB Ontario group, thx guys <3

I now think that Yoshi definitely beats Fox. Slush and all other Yoshis just saying their character is bad because they're secretely plotting the demise of the entire roster with their Barney main.

To stay on topic, quick ratios:
50:50 - I don't see how Fox beats ZSS the way Mav said, we may have a good onstage game even against ZSS but we are very very dead once we're offstage. Ryoko only posted three % ranges to watch out for.

I only posted three %'s because that MU is really shady just like all character that are apparently "light" but have stone sinking in the pond falling speed, Fox is slightly faster then zss on the ground but we move faster in the air. I have yet to be gimped by a fox at low %s or anything since Zss ain't got time for that.

In all honesty Zss can probably kill fox at 25% on a charged laser hit confirm from a ledge get up -> slight pause -> well timed flip jump kick to spike him as fox slides back off the stage with how ******** his fall speed is I kinda doubt he can really recover unless he were to say Shine as soon as possible (which means risking bad DI if your trying to spam it) -> DJ Fair (since it gives fox height IIRC) -> up b but then zss can just spike you again when they aren't fraudulent like myself.

I am pretty sure I've killed a fox with the kick from down b at like 65% maybe this was because I shot a laser and he reflected it but i doubt he'd still hold down and let me do it in both games of a set.

I don't know the guaranteed % for f-throw /b -throw to down b spikes, However that shouldn't matter if the DI is incorrect from fox or there is the perfect rage %.

Seems I've been rambling a tad so to wrap things up lets just say on the ground its 45:55 in foxes favor because of all those ground combos that come out of no where sometimes and the 75%+ jab lock.

In the air I'd say zss has that 60:40 despite the fact that fox can shine to mess up your juggle timing (watch out for boost kick though...)

Off stage if both players are the same skill level then Fox might gimp zss with fair of stage (when she wastes he recovery options foolishly) while Zss could get early spikes on him OR just straight up Ryoko SD from being over zealous. Fox can run around and potential do things like pp single laser , jab gimmicks , retreating side b's for reset ect until he has that jab lock % which would be optimal but if she gets the lead on him Zss can definitely out maneuver out of his reach on certain stages like delphino and possibly duck hunt.

To get a truly accurate rating on this MU you need to see a set of 5 from like Nairo's Zss and some Fox on that level maybe Nakat?[/quote]

Alright I just read @ Equin0x 's post and had a few comments
ZSS' only downwards aerial hitbox is D-air : Actually Nair hits slightly below her in that awkward AF angle which like you said will be used to cover our landings.

This is speculation, but ZSS could potentially use Plasma Whip to do a semi-spike on Fox Illusion or Fire Fox, it'd need testing.) :That more than likely will work although it might just be better to try zair Zss will never die from running off and immediately zairing you.

or simply back off and shoot lasers from outside of Flip Jump Kick range: I like where your going with this but zss can crawl under his laser so it will just be a stand still if shes winning she's prob not gonna get off her knees anytime soon @ Mr Moosebones inc before you or Astro speak ill of my girl .

plasma Whip is a very niche move and can also be punished hard: This one is pretty much on the fence and could go either way if the zss is stupid or a fraud sure she'll get punished but if she does stuff like wave bounce plasma whips fox's timing will sometimes be off causing him to drop shield and get hit or the momentum push back might set zss up for a shield poke or semantics (Like seriously I discovered last week that ZSS can apparently force a get up on missed techs with side b zzz.

Don't forget Zss has edge cancels not sure have many fox has but she can edge cancel will all specials but up b.

 

[DavemanCozy]

I am pretty sure I've killed a fox with the kick from down b at like 65% maybe this was because I shot a laser and he reflected it but i doubt he'd still hold down and let me do it in both games of a set.

Lol, I'm pretty sure you did that to me at CECC2 in pools. And again at Neo Canadia 5.

Don't forget Zss has edge cancels not sure have many fox has but she can edge cancel will all specials but up b.

Fox can edge cancel Side-B and UpB when he slides off the platform, can be used to his advantage when recovering on stages with platforms.

 

[pichuthedk]

Lol, I'm pretty sure you did that to me at CECC2 in pools. And again at Neo Canadia 5.


Fox can edge cancel Side-B and UpB when he slides off the platform, can be used to his advantage when recovering on stages with platforms.

LOL yeah i did that to you and I did it to guard at NC5 literally his first stock both games where i 2-0'd him but it definitely was lack of MU because the set even ended with me getting bthrow to flip jump kick spike at like 36 % WHAT IN THE ACTUAL ****?.


Well anyways it looks kinda even in terms of platform/edge semantics used for mixups, Flip jump is only faster if fox is in the air otherwise I believe he should be the same speed if not slightly faster then her flipping over.

 

[Steam]

a little late but

vs

IMO this is a solid 65:35 in fox's favor. Yes lucario can sit in shield all day and can kill fox in one hit with aura but fox wins neutral so badly that it should never be an issue. force palm flame and most uses of aura sphere are invalidated by reflector, fox's nair (lol) outspaces lucario in the air, and up close fox can cover basically anything with his jab and be safe since lucario is too slow to deal with it. The only the fox has to worry about is Uthrow -> Uair killing when both characters are around 80, but other than that there's no excuse for fox getting hit by anything other fairs or a rare grab. Normally characters can still pull through this kind of stuff with hard reads but fox's stuff is so much better in every way it just won't happen unless the fox just messes something up.

honestly if fox had anything that resembled a kill setup out of a throw this matchup would be worse than 7:3 :/

 

[Sinister Slush]

Heh barney...
Fox is broken as hell and anyone that thinks Yoshi's slow as **** frame data can match up to fox's insane stuff then please....
At least show vids of a Yoshi decimating a Fox player, cause so far it's quite the opposite and will be even more so once Megafox poops all over denti's yoshi.

Reason I bring those two up is because Mega is prolly you guys best Fox earth, while Yoshi doesn't have any "top" players playing him.
Just some people that're kinda good but not really doing anything amazing in their region, the overhyped Yoshidora and Aiba have done literally nothing in Japan and Western what can there possibly be? Denti is a "top" player but not a top Yoshi but that's the closest anyone will get in this MU for a long while.

One top fox/player, one top player/mediocre Yoshi.

 

[Mr Moosebones]

Heh barney...
Fox is broken as hell and anyone that thinks Yoshi's slow as **** frame data can match up to fox's insane stuff then please....
At least show vids of a Yoshi decimating a Fox player, cause so far it's quite the opposite and will be even more so once Megafox poops all over denti's yoshi.

Reason I bring those two up is because Mega is prolly you guys best Fox earth, while Yoshi doesn't have any "top" players playing him.
Just some people that're kinda good but not really doing anything amazing in their region, the overhyped Yoshidora and Aiba have done literally nothing in Japan and Western what can there possibly be? Denti is a "top" player but not a top Yoshi but that's the closest anyone will get in this MU for a long while.

One top fox/player, one top player/mediocre Yoshi.

Yoshi has a frame 3 nair and wins as soon as fox is offstage. Yoshi's OoS options are just as good as Fox's and his upsmash is arguably better in the MU than Fox's is.

I didn't even realize Denti played yoshi. Hardly even relevant.

 

[Sinister Slush]

It's totally relevant.
Cause again it's the highest level of play in the Yoshi vs Fox MU people will see whenever it happens until more Yoshi's pop up.

Otherwise the best there is to offer people have right now is Me vs Megafox and that's certainly not a good gauge of the MU, random times I'll take him to Game 3 and it'll be down to the wire, then another weekly will be him three stocking me once or even twice.
Dunno if Raptor vs DEHF has happened yet but I highly doubt it and judging from how dehf's doing in tournaments and the dirty things he's doing it's not looking good for raptor whenever he plays raptor.

Should also mention it's a frame 3 nair that lasts another 40+ frames with an incredibly tiny hitbox compared to other frame 3 nairs like Pac-man villager etc. that last less than Yoshi's.
By that logic, because Villager can toy around and throw out nairs all day against fox offstage and STILL make it back because his amazing upB compared to Yoshi not being able to go offstage like he can, then the MU should be in Villager's favor too.

 

[Mr Moosebones]

That's sort of a bad argument to try and make. You're admitting yourself that the average level of Yoshi play is lower than the average level of Fox play, so, by definition and your own words, Denti vs Mega will not be a defining set for the MU. It might be the closest thing we have right now, but you seem to agree with me that it's not going to be an accurate representation.

I should clarify that me talking about the nair and me talking about offstage game were not the same idea. Should have made them into separate sentences. fadeaway bair/dair alone destroy fox offstage, not to mention fair being free unless fox is super low (in which case you'd just use a fadeaway bair). I think fox has the tools to be slightly advantageous in neutral, but offstage it's so one sided it's not funny. The amount of games I've won in this mu after being outplayed in neutral is ridiculous, and I'm not even particularly good at yoshi right now. He's got a few easy options to reset a game after being substantially behind vs Fox. I don't think it's like, 70:30 Yoshi, but it's favourable.

 

[Sinister Slush]

A few of us went over this discussion page 1 of this thread I think Jr Main.
Fox can bait out Yoshi's nair quite easily to punish and use his speed from both ground and amazing frame data to decimate Yoshi. The gist of it being we juggle him pretty damn hard if we ever get a hit confirm, but if the fox just never gets hit (which he can most certainly do while making us bait out laggy moves) he can win pretty handedly.

Fox has an amazing neutral against Yoshi while Yoshi doesn't have a good neutral. Yoshi has decent offstage game against Fox while Fox doesn't have a good offstage game.

Every Yoshi main think it's other way around with it being 55:45, Fox's think it's 45:55 for them. We're still at the same impasse that we were 2 months ago.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Does yoshi generally win in mobility?
His dash speed isnt too much slower then Fox's and his air speed is FAR superior,because well, its the fastest in the game if im correct.
I have played yoshi a little, but he just...feels too akward for me, i generally dont use fast characters, not to mention im sure Gamepad isnt the best controller to use, because if i use Egg throw, i for some reason, most of the time lose my jump, which i know isnt suppose to happen, i dont wanna have to deal with that.

 

[Mr Moosebones]

Lmao i like how youused "jr main" as a slight at me. No need to be catty mon frere.

 

[Mr Moosebones]

(that said, i understand that youre more experienced than me with yoshi. Im not trying to discredit you.)

 

[Sinister Slush]

Well I guess to be fair for both sides I might as well drop the most recent Fox vs Yoshi I have.

I believe our first discussion was like in March so having a near end of April vid example is prolly better.
We're both balls to the walls players, but megafox is just more crisp in his play along with fox being faster in a lot aspects to be able to throw out as many moves as he wants with very little lag compared to Yoshi.

Since he practically dominates the entire TX scene, especially his own town, he tends to go secondaries against everyone now and still wins solidly.

I never feel safe in this MU, feel like even Yoshi's less laggy moves like ftilt or Utilt are unsafe. The only moves I quite honestly feel safe at all times throwing out is jab Dtilt and Uair.
When a MU makes you so unsure of using almost your entire kit, something is wrong here.

 

[pichuthedk]

So @ DavemanCozy I apparently have a fox problem I took Rookie to lylat g3 for our set for a specific reason and it never occured it was rather unfortunate ( plus i heard Lylat was a decent cp for him).

It was for our weekly do you think you can help me out with the MU when I find the link/time?
Aside from the obvious fraud moments I had several times.

 

[SpaceDong]

@ pichuthedk Don't go to Lylat if you're playing Zero suit.. isn't it her worst stage? I'd say a better stage against Fox for the MU is definitely Battlefield... and of course Delfino.

This MU is all about being mobile. Unless you're at kill percent, there is never a moment that you should be hiding in shield. Footsies are your friend.