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Could you elaborate more? Comparing the MU to Mario isn't really helpful, they're different characters and the MUs are played differently.
Kirby's crouching stance alone shuts down our jab confirms. His D-tilt is effective in starting things on us out when we try getting in on Kirby. And his U-tilt is quite dangerous too.
Kirby is one of my least favorite matchups in this game, not in terms of winnability, but in terms of how tedious it can be.
It is a different match up of course. But with Kirby being as light as he is and about the same speed as Mario. Mario can combo fox very good, can add pressure to fox with fireballs, has better ways of keeping fox off the stage than kirby. Can KO fox with a fsmash at a earlier % than Kirby. Kirby cant combo as good as mario. His utilt will get you but mario can do much more. Kirby its easier dealing with a Kirby than it is a Mario player. Its a different match up of course but I can't put him as an even match up.
@Timbers
yes exactly what I said. Sonic has a lot of moves that have ending lag that u can punish. Example all his smash attacks. They aren't like the plumbers or captain where its hard to punish there end lag after they do a smash attack. Sonic cant just keep throwing out smash attacks in a row like they can. Sonics aerials, all u have to do is wait for him to throw one out, stay close enough not to get hit or shield and punish him. Every single one of his aierals you can do that for. His bair if it hits your shield than yea you can't punish him because of the push back but if you are close and he misses it you can get him for it.
You're overlooking an important part. Whenever fox is at high percents (even if sonic is too), Sonic is at a HUGE advantage because he can kill you with a throw which is extremely hard to avoid because of sonic's speed and mobility. You're limited by having to be aware of the grab, and he doesn't have to worry about dying from a throw to you. A smart sonic will camp near the edges of the stage in these percent ranges, especially with rage. And the not approaching him option only works if you have the lead, as your blaster is way too laggy to use against sonic. He can run across most stages and punish you for shooting even 1 laser. If you shoot 2 or more you are certainly getting punished.
Also, Spring and Dair are actually decent for getting back down to the ground fast. Spring is moreso for avoiding one upair, as it doesn't save him from later juggles. Dair is just super fast and its landing lag can be cancelled if spaced right.
You can't Double Jab Cancel Sonic reliably either, as he can spring out at any time. The only kind of punish you can pull off is either a fast upair if you read the spring option and react fast to it, or attempting to punish him as he's landing.
I think fox's only "Good" stage in this mu is BF, and mayyyybeee FD. Any stage with small horizontal blast zones is instantly in sonic's favor. Stages like halberd and delfino have things going for fox (insanely early kills off the top), but even more for sonic (insanely early kills off the top AND the chance to force kills early off the sides, which forces you to respect it).
Lastly, I don't know what Fox is supposed to if he gets ledge trumped, especially in this matchup. Its a free dsmash for sonic that will likely kill you.
The more i play this matchup the more I think its even only if Fox plays it perfectly . Otherwise Sonic controls the tempo, and you're almost always going to have to play a stage he gets more out of than Fox does.
The throw is a really strong tool, but his dash and dash grab are not that quick. If you combine that with Fox's great movement speed it feels like Sonic would have to work harder than he would against most characters to land a grab on Fox.
Fox is capable of covering spring dair pretty easily, unless Fox gets hit by the spring. Even then, Fox's attacks can cancel out the spring hitbox and still give you enough time to punish the dair.
I think landing jab jab up smash is still pretty reliable Sonic. I haven't tested it yet, but I think the spring only works if Sonic is DIing up when getting jab. If they do spring, you can just go for an up air instead of the up smash.
I don't see how Fox follows up well in his attacks better then Kirby.
And the Uair string I have no idea, because I barely ever get hit by Uair because it can't really be comboed into.
Mainly what Kirby lost that really decided this MU! was the combos in his throws.
I know you said this was based off of one game, but not all of this is necessarily true, for all we know that player could have been bad or something.
This MU is definatly about spacing and punishing, which both characters fare decently well at.
Kirby Generally pokes better, with his fast and very good tilts, he doesn't have to worry about blaster.
I need to see what moves Kirby can and can't crouch under.
Fox has plently of attacks that combo into his uair. You can combo uair out of utilt, dtilt, dair, side b, and dthrow(dthrow is DI dependent). It's also possible to get a guarantee combo out of uair at kill percent using utilt and dtilt.
Sorry, I didn't mean that was the only Kirby I've played ever, just the only really good one. I've played a good amount of Kirby's, but Markus I think his name is, was by far the best Kirby I've ever played.
Fox's tilts are as good as Kirby's in this match up, but Fox has the ability to run away better than Kirby. So he's able to control fight better in neutral.
Kirby is light. Fox has great KO potential. Basically, what I'm getting off the bat, is that Fox has an advantage in the fact that he can KO Kirby very easily with most of his moves.
However, Kirby does a good job at keeping Fox at bay. Outside of lasers Fox doesn't have that good of range, but neither does Kirby, however Kirby can Nair or use his really good aerials to deal with Fox. Fox outspeeds Kirby by a clear margin, though, so it's a bit of a trouble for the super tuff pink puff as Fox can just rush in and juggle you for days. What others said are good, though. Kirby does have multiple jumps and his floatiness can TRY to help him escape that Uair. Kirby can also chain Fox very quickly for good damage, of course you can just break out with Nair. Anything Fox whiffs, Kirby can punish, but the same goes for Kirby whiffing anything - that Usmash, man. Too good.
I believe it's just a tad in Fox's favor.
45:55
Now, for Ness.
FOX HAS A REFLECTOR HE CAN REFLECT PK FIRE IT'S 100-0 IN FOX'S FAVOR
I kid.
Now, let's get serious. Fox relies a lot on chaining moves into eachother, or juggles, really. Ness relies a lot on grabs, so the two conflict. Fox wants to get in Ness' face, Ness wants to get grabs to create damage and set up PK Fire / get you off stage or in the air. Ness relies a lot on aerials and grabs, as his aerials are fantastic and a good chunk of his damage or KO moves, and...well, Bthrow.
Ness can PSI Magnet lasers, which heal him, so Fox might want to be weary of that. However you can bait out the shield for a punish, though Ness will probably use it when you're both at a long range and the Ness player believes you'll use Blaster to force approach or something. PK Fire is very, VERY punishable on block so the Ness player will want to be weary, but if it hits it's good for a approach or something.
I believe this MU is even, nobody seems to be at a clear advantage, or so I believe.
50:50
Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't feel like writing 50 paragraphs for these MUs.
I should know this a little better, I indulge myself in Fox from time to time
@Timbers
yes exactly what I said. Sonic has a lot of moves that have ending lag that u can punish. Example all his smash attacks. They aren't like the plumbers or captain where its hard to punish there end lag after they do a smash attack. Sonic cant just keep throwing out smash attacks in a row like they can. Sonics aerials, all u have to do is wait for him to throw one out, stay close enough not to get hit or shield and punish him. Every single one of his aierals you can do that for. His bair if it hits your shield than yea you can't punish him because of the push back but if you are close and he misses it you can get him for it.
Sonic's fsmash has one of the lowest endlag in the game lol. It might be 2nd only to Pika's fsmash. I agree that usmash and dsmash have endlag, but usmash does a great job at covering getup options and kills extremely early. Not sure why we mention Falcon. His endlag is actually pretty poor on smashes, looks like he threw out his back everytime he fsmashes. Should have just stuck with the plumbers example.
I don't know what sort of players you are playing, but to "just keep throwing out smash attacks in a row" is a terrible and punishable strategy, and hard to be considered a perk of a good playstyle. To top it all off, Sonic CAN do this with his amazing pivots and low endlag fsmashes if he wishes, but it's one dimensional and easily overcome.
Ness versus Fox is an immensely close match-up, from what I've seen and heard. We're in luck because this MU just happens to have a top player that uses both characters proficiently to give input on, but I'll do what I can to cover a few things that I know of.
Ness will be killing Fox with Bthrow as early as 84% (with rage this gets significantly lessened) from the closest edge, to a healthy 139% at the far edge (due to how rage affects these numbers, it will have a bigger impact here) (the numbers are taken from one of my favourite threads of all time. Feel free to peruse it: http://smashboards.com/threads/nesss-back-throw-and-ko-percents-the-thread.387966/ ).
On average, that's roughly 110-120% without rage, which for a reliable kill move doesn't give Fox much room to wriggle. Utilt combos are dangerous for you because after the second or third one - at low percents - we can Nair and beneficially trade with it.
PK Fire isn't really our most essential game tool - we have other ways of getting grabs and racking up damage. PK thunder is harder to juggle you with because of reflector, however it can be used in edge-guarding. Fox is one of the few match-ups where we don't have to freak out too much about recovery, and to make it worse for you, we can edge-guard you quite well ourselves - Nair and Bair beat out your upB, and Nair I believe beats out Illusion (I think?).
All that said, Fox plays neutral quite well in this match-up, your mobility is truly fearsome and we have to respect that... a lot. Getting a grab in the first place can be difficult, and although we force you to approach via Magnet, we risk getting punished if you get too close too quickly, meaning you have some leverage in determining who approaches who. I'm not sure how Nair and Fair trade with your moves, although I've seen your Nair go through some pretty silly stuff - someone else can clarify this if they wish. Your combos are also quite brutal.
Ness can have some trouble with juggling, but you'll also find him difficult to kill because of his size and weight.
From my limited knowledge, the Match-up is quite close, but as far as I know we have the advantage offstage and clear superiority in killpower, so I would be led to believe the MU is slightly in our favour - +1/-1 or so. Someone with more experience could give a better description though. Hope the input helps!
Everything you said is pretty spot on I think. On the note of Fox's nair, it's very hard to contest with Ness' nair and fair head on, but Fox's great vertical spacing allows him to fullhop nair over most of Ness' aerial attempts.
The MU I'm fairly certain is around even, but it's hard to say. Ness' nair also strikes fear into my heart because outside of it doing like 11/12% or whatever, its trajectory is pretty dirty and sets up great edgeguard attempts against Fox as well. It always bothers me that I can be playing an immaculate game, and then misplace one nair and get shieldgrabbed punished for like 40% from Ness' amazeballs edgeguarding against Fox, or just die to bthrow. That is moreso human error I guess, and as I get better I won't be so sad about Ness' awesome throw game, or Fox's lack of moves safe on shield.
Everything you said is pretty spot on I think. On the note of Fox's nair, it's very hard to contest with Ness' nair and fair head on, but Fox's great vertical spacing allows him to fullhop nair over most of Ness' aerial attempts.
The MU I'm fairly certain is around even, but it's hard to say. Ness' nair also strikes fear into my heart because outside of it doing like 11/12% or whatever, its trajectory is pretty dirty and sets up great edgeguard attempts against Fox as well. It always bothers me that I can be playing an immaculate game, and then misplace one nair and get shieldgrabbed punished for like 40% from Ness' amazeballs edgeguarding against Fox, or just die to bthrow. That is moreso human error I guess, and as I get better I won't be so sad about Ness' awesome throw game, or Fox's lack of moves safe on shield.
Considering Nair doesn't have a hitbox around our head, if you FH over us and do a FF Nair then you'd probably beat it out, which I believe is what has led to those situations I was talking about where it appears to beat out silly stuff.
It could be even, I believe it's in that ballpark somewhere. ^^
The throw is a really strong tool, but his dash and dash grab are not that quick. If you combine that with Fox's great movement speed it feels like Sonic would have to work harder than he would against most characters to land a grab on Fox.
His dash is not that quick? Aka the quickest dash/run in the game? And even if sonic has to work harder for a grab, he still has to work a lot less than Fox does to not get grabbed, while trying to secure a kill which can't come from a kill throw.
Fox is capable of covering spring dair pretty easily, unless Fox gets hit by the spring. Even then, Fox's attacks can cancel out the spring hitbox and still give you enough time to punish the dair.
Can't argue much about this, although i will say its most reliable to wait for the landing then react. A smart/good sonic will almost never screw up the auto cancel timing on dair, and it can be tricky to punish the initial dair.
I think landing jab jab up smash is still pretty reliable Sonic. I haven't tested it yet, but I think the spring only works if Sonic is DIing up when getting jab. If they do spring, you can just go for an up air instead of the up smash.
Sonic can get out of double jabs with up whenever he wants...think Falco's chain grab on marth in brawl where Marth can Upb out (lets ignore the fact you can guarantee it as falco if you are frame perfect for the sake of argument). Falco can make a mind game out of it and run up shield instead of run up grab to punish a hasty upb from marth. Its a very similar case with fox's double jab vs sonic's spring. Its very hard to land an upair if he springs out of a double jab combo unless you read the spring and shield first. Otherwise you need to go for a punish as he's landing because there's just not enough time.
As for Ness...the Double Jab Cancel is inescapable for him(best thing to do I'm pretty sure is DI away), so ness eats a ton of percent every time Fox lands a jab.
His dash is not that quick? Aka the quickest dash/run in the game? And even if sonic has to work harder for a grab, he still has to work a lot less than Fox does to not get grabbed, while trying to secure a kill which can't come from a kill throw.
Can't argue much about this, although i will say its most reliable to wait for the landing then react. A smart/good sonic will almost never screw up the auto cancel timing on dair, and it can be tricky to punish the initial dair.
Sonic can get out of double jabs with up whenever he wants...think Falco's chain grab on marth in brawl where Marth can Upb out (lets ignore the fact you can guarantee it as falco if you are frame perfect for the sake of argument). Falco can make a mind game out of it and run up shield instead of run up grab to punish a hasty upb from marth. Its a very similar case with fox's double jab vs sonic's spring. Its very hard to land an upair if he springs out of a double jab combo unless you read the spring and shield first. Otherwise you need to go for a punish as he's landing because there's just not enough time.
As for Ness...the Double Jab Cancel is inescapable for him(best thing to do I'm pretty sure is DI away), so ness eats a ton of percent every time Fox lands a jab.
His run is the best in game, but his dash isn't as good. He always have to do something out of his inital dash because the endlag for it is really long.
You can still punish Sonic's spring to dair even if they auto cancel it, just makes it harder.
I'm pretty sure you can hit them with jab jab up smash before they can shield, if timed properly. It's 50/50 mix up, so if you guess right you get an up smash or an up air. It's not hard to up air them out of the spring if you know how to position yourself. Sonic's up b has a set vertical distance on it, there's not much they can do to trick you if you read the spring.
Sonic's fsmash has one of the lowest endlag in the game lol. It might be 2nd only to Pika's fsmash. I agree that usmash and dsmash have endlag, but usmash does a great job at covering getup options and kills extremely early. Not sure why we mention Falcon. His endlag is actually pretty poor on smashes, looks like he threw out his back everytime he fsmashes. Should have just stuck with the plumbers example.
I don't know what sort of players you are playing, but to "just keep throwing out smash attacks in a row" is a terrible and punishable strategy, and hard to be considered a perk of a good playstyle. To top it all off, Sonic CAN do this with his amazing pivots and low endlag fsmashes if he wishes, but it's one dimensional and easily overcome.
So u lol what I said than agree with it, makes sense.
His fsmash is still punishable. And I wasn't talking about all of falcon's smashes just his dsmash sorry for not being exact. And you like exaggerating what I say. Of course no one is going to keep throwing out smash attacks over and over and over but throwing out two in a row with certain characters is a good stragey esp. if you can't get punished for it.
Sonic main dropping by to contribute what little I can to the discussion. Fox is one of our more difficult characters to deal with (In my opinion) because he has a really good jump and has nice aerials. Getting sonic in the air causes him to have a really bad time. He's similar to Snake from Brawl in which once he's in the air he has a hard time getting down. Dair is actually not that great of an option and is punishable even on auto cancel. There are a few different ways you can go about dealing with his spin dash/charge. I'll give you a few scenarios:
1. Sonic spin dashes towards you, you decide to jump over it. Sonic has to either A. Turn around and come to a screech stop or jump cancel it or B Jump cancel it and he's off the stage.
2. Sonic comes into contact with your shield and jump cancels you can jump nair,bair or possibly even fair and punish him if he doesn't spring right away or use his double jump to get away from you. If he springs he's gonna have fun trying to land assuming you cover the landing options well.
3. Sonic comes in contact with your shield and decides to just go through it then turn back in the other direction, I can't say I'm 100% certain about this but I was playing with a friend Tuesday and when I went back through his shield after he shielded the first time it didn't do any damage. But I need to experiment with that a little bit more to understand and confirm that, seemed strange to me. Anyways. If he comes back through you he either is going to screech stop away from you which I believe can be punished by a dash attack. Or in front of you. Which can also be punished if you react fast enough.
4. Sonic spin dashes/charges towards you and you just dash attack or dtilt at the proper time and it clanks. So this just stops the move altogether. Dash attack probably being the best one to go far. I'm not 100% certain if this varies with how long the spin dash/charge is charged. But I think regardless of how long it is charged, you can just dash attack it to stop it.
5. Sonic does a jump cancel right out of Spin dash/charge, you can jump and catch him in a nair because he's already vulnerable. If Sonic is doing a jump cancel towards you out of a spin dash/charge he's either going to fast fall an aerial or fast fall grab. At least that's what I tend to go for.
The best way to go about dealing with Sonic is to make him think twice about wanting to abuse spin dash/charge. If you start punishing him for using it and making him fight you as a regular character you're going to have a lot better of a time playing against him. Get him in the air, and do lots of mixups with jumps and fast falling to the ground. I think it's called bunny hopping? I'm not sure. But throw in a lot of that and we have to start thinking of other ways to play against you. We don't (Or at least I don't) like being forced into a position where I feel like I can't spin dash or approach you. Because his approach options aren't that great once you understand them.
Also if his back is facing the ledge...it's a trap.
The best way to go about dealing with Sonic is to make him think twice about wanting to abuse spin dash/charge. If you start punishing him for using it and making him fight you as a regular character you're going to have a lot better of a time playing against him. Get him in the air, and do lots of mixups with jumps and fast falling to the ground.
2. Sonic comes into contact with your shield and jump cancels you can jump nair,bair or possibly even fair and punish him if he doesn't spring right away or use his double jump to get away from you. If he springs he's gonna have fun trying to land assuming you cover the landing options well.
[...]
4. Sonic spin dashes/charges towards you and you just dash attack or dtilt at the proper time and it clanks. So this just stops the move altogether. Dash attack probably being the best one to go far. I'm not 100% certain if this varies with how long the spin dash/charge is charged. But I think regardless of how long it is charged, you can just dash attack it to stop it.
I find it to actually be a bit difficult to try and immediately follow a jump cancel on Sonic, unless he's autopiloting and tries to bair/uair every time regardless of if he hits your shield or not. Sonic neutral B, upB, and nair do a good job at stuffing a lot of Fox's rising options. I find it better to just look to punish the landing.
I have weird results when clanking with Sonic via dash attack. Either A) the dash attack still gets ending lag and can be punished by Sonic's jabs, or B) the distance at which they clank is too far for Fox to jab Sonic, and yet Sonic is able to jab Fox with his longer reach. Either way, I feel like I'm always in a disadvantageous position when I clank with Sonic. I haven't tried ftilt or dtilt, but I find it safer to just shield as missing a clank gets you punished for ~25%. These have been my personal experiences at least, and I could be wrong. Either way thanks!
Okay, regarding Ness: According to Ambrose's video on Fox's double jab combo (MySmashCorner), Fox can trap Ness at any percent, doing it perfectly won't let Ness escape with N-air.
I tested this out a bit yesterday, it's not inescapable necessarily, Ness can still SDI the jabs down to shield or jab/dtilt Fox, or SDI away. That said, we can react to this as well (specially after two strings if we know he's going to be mashing panic button A). I don't know if he can escape with his double jump, it has the initial lower dip which (in my testing) didn't let him avoid the next jab. Maybe if he's far enough?
Fox traded Shine for character specific wobbling that can be DI'd, lol. Don't get jabbed!
(we remember: )
As for the MU, I used to think it was a 6:4 for Ness, but I don't think that anymore. Ness has really good ways of covering Fox's angles (particularly offstage), but what Luco said about Fox's speed is true as well, Fox is a very slippery character.
Fox generally doesn't like characters that jump around a lot unless he puts them in the air himself, and Ness likes to use his great aerials. Jab locking is very stupid though, and I abuse it in this MU with no shame.
I give it a 50:50
This would be one of the more fun matchups in the game for us if not for backthrow being the scariest move in the whole world. While Ness's Nair breaks our combos, the hitbox doesn't last and we can really easily predict it, shield and continue. It's very easy to rack up damage on Ness but, on the same token, his edgeguarding and grab game on us is pretty excellent. I feel like Fox should be playing as mobile but safely as possible here with lots of tomahawks and grabs to guarantee damage that can't be traded in order to extend our advantage. We're at KO percentage much earlier than Ness is so it's important not to take free damage and risk an early death to bthrow, especially in 2 stock format. For this reason, I'd generally just stay away from Ness on the ledge. Unless you're very confident you can land drop down Nair/Bair to edgeguard him, PK Thunder will obviously kill you early - there's no point risking missing the read and getting bthrow'd when he climbs back on just so you can do 10% or so. Establishing centre stage control is important in this MU - if we can get him at a range where he feels uncomfortable using magnet but simultaneously can't safely answer our mobility/approaches, that's the ideal scenario.
Can't talk too much about the other matchups - I wanna say they're also both even 50:50 but I have a personal block against Sonic (that this thread has helped a ton, thanks guys) and I've hardly ever played against Kirbys.
oh wow. I didn't think about this trait on his double jump. If this is true then that sounds like it sucks bigtime for Ness.Who's susceptible to jab cancels still feels like voodoo magic to me and it's entirely random. Fallspeed feels like a good benchmark, but there's still some awkward ones in there. DDD for example.
I wonder at what percent Ness can start nairing us out of jab cancels. jab jab usmash is a blessing, but I've never went ahead and really sought out at what percents he could punish us for it.
Oh! Something I forgot to mention. I've been out of the meta for some time now, so I'm not really sure as to what everyone's doing but I've heard RAR Bair is the truth now.
On the other hand, the jab locks would make life a big pain most likely ahah.
More Ness mains who are actually relevant should be contributing to this discussion. Gonna go ahead and pull @NAKAT
@Noa. @Earthbound360 @Waael and @Pazx to hopefully give their input. =)
oh wow. I didn't think about this trait on his double jump. If this is true then that sounds like it sucks bigtime for Ness.Who's susceptible to jab cancels still feels like voodoo magic to me and it's entirely random. Fallspeed feels like a good benchmark, but there's still some awkward ones in there. DDD for example.
Kirby is capable of escaping jab locks as well by jumping away. Something to do with their multiple jumps and how they let them DI up when hit before using it. I think the Pits can escape as well.
Kirby is capable of escaping jab locks as well by jumping away. Something to do with their multiple jumps and how they let them DI up when hit before using it. I think the Pits can escape as well.
I can't see how this matchup is in any way 50:50 if Fox can A. get a ton of damage off of a single jab and B. Reflector completely shuts down ness's upb juggles. Ness has throw to fair combos, and upair/backthrow for reliable kills, and that's it really. Making pk thunder a non factor is HUGE, and ness has to avoid a 2 frame jab or take a ton of damage (Assuming the Fox doesn't screw up his timing; Ness can probably jump of nair out if the Fox's timing is off). If you land a jab, you can just DJC him all the way to a ledge and either grab or dsmash him, and upsmash at kill ranges. Ness's best overall option in the neutral game imo is PK fire since its fast and sets up most of his followups. I don't see how his neutral is better than Fox's outside of that move though.
A thing to note is that you sometimes get the "sour" inner part of Fox's jab quite often on smaller characters if you try jabbing them too closely, and the second hit of the jab won't send them upwards, but rather it sends them into Fox and ends the DJC. you can best follow this up with a utilt which is fine at least, but it's something to look for. Landing jabs are also not the easiest thing to do on Ness as he's airborne most of the match. You'll often catch him out of his rising sh with DJC that doesn't give the desired knockback to follow up reliably.
I hate discussions like these only because I feel nobody ever really shifts their stancestors just so they can't be seen as wrong. I haven't seen that here yet so I'll give input now.
My Smash Corner's video on Double Jab Cancelling believes its completely inescapable for Ness.
I can't see how this matchup is in any way 50:50 if Fox can A. get a ton of damage off of a single jab and B. Reflector completely shuts down ness's upb juggles. Ness has throw to fair combos, and upair/backthrow for reliable kills, and that's it really. Making pk thunder a non factor is HUGE, and ness has to avoid a 2 frame jab or take a ton of damage (Assuming the Fox doesn't screw up his timing; Ness can probably jump of nair out if the Fox's timing is off). If you land a jab, you can just DJC him all the way to a ledge and either grab or dsmash him, and upsmash at kill ranges. Ness's best overall option in the neutral game imo is PK fire since its fast and sets up most of his followups. I don't see how his neutral is better than Fox's outside of that move though.
I hate discussions like these only because I feel nobody ever really shifts their stancestors just so they can't be seen as wrong. I haven't seen that here yet so I'll give input now.
I'm looking forward to hearing your input on it. Btw, I don't know if I thanked you at Apex for giving me advice vs Ness. But if I didn't: thanks for your advice, you really gave me confidence going into that match.
God damn it Smashboards you really had to erase my draft on my input of the Ness vs. Fox MU? Here I go again... (Blame the fact I was busy the past few days and couldn't finish my post in a shot lol)
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I'm a Ness main, and frankly, Ness vs. Fox has been one of my fave MUs in Brawl, and now its become my favorite in this game (b/c Wolf & Lucas were removed but that's besides the point lol). I really get a good rush playing this MU and so it's hella fun! :D
TBH, this MU is even-ish, but I feel like this goes to Ness' favor (just slightly) though. I have some video examples as to what both players should watch out for and keep in mind. However, my primary video example is rather old and it is on 3DS (in there, it was literally my first time fighting a good Fox there and he's a good friend lol), so what I say should be taken with a grain of salt. =P
I think the key thing here is that you want to overwhelm your foe with Fox's speed, but not overcommit to anything, especially against Ness; tomahawking will serve you well here.
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In neutral, this definitely goes to Fox. You've got the speed to pressure him while he can't keep up with you too well, and you can use mid-air Illusions quite well to play some mindgames with him. Watch how Guard's Fox does this (especially Game 1). Meanwhile, PK Fire for Ness is very punishable, and even when it hits, it's not too rewarding for him. Hell I've even got Jabbed out of it. o.o
And speaking of Jabs, Ness ABSOLUTELY DESPISES your Jab Cancel combos (3:20 and many more moments there). I've even got chain-jabbed across the stage before, and I don't think Ness can escape it unless Fox screws up his timing. I've been told it does lead into U-Smash at a certain percent, but I've yet to experience it. =P
In terms of Ness' neutral... Well, he'll be throwing out Nairs (it's one of his best tools, probably the best in this MU but I'll get into that later on), likely trading with whatever you have (although he should be wary of trading U-Smashes by accident at KO %s) and trying to make you make a mistake so he can get the grab and do his infamous D-Throw follow-ups (which I'll also get into later on) at low percents.
Also, some Ness' enjoy doing SH Dair Cancels (using Dair not actually letting the hitbox come out) b/c it leaves him with no landing lag. It can fake you out, but Fox can do that much better thanks to his speed and fast fall.
I don't really think Blaster should be used this MU just due to Ness' Magnet and don't forget he can cancel it into a Jump, Roll (can't roll forward though; as in the direction where the lasers came from) or spotdodge, so you'd have to play some mindgames and be at proper range to bait Ness into Magnet but not actually fire the Blaster.
==
In terms of Juggling, I'd say Ness wins here for sure. While Fox can certainly overwhelm Ness with his speed, Fox doesn't get a damage output that's as rewarding and requires more reads. As seen here (8:05 - 8:32), Guard does well with his string, and gets about 75% on me, which isn't bad actually. But compare that to Ness, who gets rewarded heavily for making proper reads like this, it can be scary for Fox. Ness also has a solid list of D-Throw follow-ups and hell he can even do a pseudo-chaingrab (keyword being pseudo, cause it is like 2-3 times across the stage lol).
[Will update later if I remember but these are what I know for now]
From 0%, assuming Ness has no rage either and all moves are fresh. Tested in Training Mode on a Level 9 Fox lol.
D-Throw [Fox DIs sideway] > Fair > Regrab
D-Throw [Fox DIs upward] > Fast Fall Nair > Regrab (D-Throw > Nair is tricky but doable and Training Mode considers it a true combo lol) <- Sorry for bad quality, I had to find a way to suspend my phone and have it capture my 3DS as I played lol
D-Throw [Fox DIs upward] > FH Fair > Uair > Regrab (This one is kind of a 50-50, sometimes I can get it to work, other times no cause the Uair somehow whiffs lol)
D-Throw [Fox DIs upward] > FH Fair > Uair > U-Tilt > Nair (like I said the Uair may whiff, but I got it to work more often than not. U-Tilt may be shielded, however)
D-Throw [Fox DIs upward] > FH Fair > Uair > Regrab > D-Throw [Fox DIs upward again] > U-Air > PKT2? (the PKT2 isn't quite guaranteed, I got it to work quite a few times but I'm trying to see if there's a correlation between the height Ness has to input PKT2 cause the PKT2 is meant to be sent on a southwest/southeast angle where he goes from air to ground lol)
D-Throw [at the ledge] > Fair > Nair > Double Jump Nair
D-Throw [at the ledge] > Fair > Fair > Double Jump Nair (this hit can be either sweet or sourspot)
D-Throw [at the ledge] > Fair x3
D-Throw [regardless of DI] > Dashing U-Smash (sometimes it's the front hit of the Yo-Yo, other times the back)
D-Throw [Fox does a STATIONARY airdodge or attempts to counter attack with Fair] > F-Smash
As I stated before with Ness wanting to make you make a mistake, if you overcommit with Fox and/or do something unsafe on Ness' shield, you will pay for it. Watch from 0:09 - 0:18 what happens if you get the flurry of kicks on shield, for instance. Or you'll just take a Nair OoS; it's a very solid option for him and I used it quite a lot vs Tanark's Fox. XD
If Ness tries to read your landing when he gets you in the air with a grounded PKT2, simply Shine stall. Otherwise what happens at the ending of me vs Tanark will happen with you as well. XD
I don't quite know Fox's follow-ups too well, but I know sourspot Nair is decent as a combo starter, then his infamous U-Tilt strings with Fair as a combo ender? Apparently mid-air Illusions into Uair can also help you net a KO as seen here (4:02-4:05).
==
Now, with edgeguarding and recovery, I'd say Ness has the upper hand here as well. We both do have linear recoveries, but Fox's is far easier to intercept with our Nair (Bair can also work, Dair if we feel gutsy too or hell even both [was attempted vs Tanark as well]) and tailwhipping with PKT. Speaking of PKT, if you're recovering and see it incoming, don't hold the Shine... It'll just put you even lower, likely out of place to Illusion to grab the edge and make it easier to intercept to attempt a stage spike. XP
Oh, and speaking of Illusion... Beware if you try it as Ness Fairs, because just like yours, ours drags the opponent with us too!
Meanwhile, Fox has to respect PKT2, or rather, it's much more strict to hit Ness out of it without going boom. xD Vs. Tanark, at 1:14 I got Bair'd out of it, which was surprising. Then he felt a bit too gutsy and attempted to do so again, which backfired on him.
^Also, can someone explain to me how I got my double jump back after using it at 1:05 but didn't grab the ledge with PKT2 rebound after Tanark Bair'd me? o.o
And speaking of PKT2 rebound, keep in mind it's better to edgeguard Ness from the left of a walled stage if you can (assuming you play on an Omega like that or some other stage on Wii U like 1st form of Castle Siege?) because he cannot gain a net distance upward when it acts like this.
Ness can also shoot a PK Fire (5:46) or do ledge PKTs (9:33) out of U-Smash range to catch you off-guard as well if he's recovering high.
==
With KOing, Ness has Bair, Uair, Nair, his Smashes, PKT2, PK Flash, the infamous B-Throw and hell, even U-Tilt. PKT, Fair and Dair can gimp and/or set you up in a bad position.
- Nair is likely gonna be a bit stale throughout the match for its utility here, but even so, it can leave you in a bad position regardless and trades well overall in this MU, but its landing lag is punishable. It can be his combo starter/ender, juggler, OoS option, whatever the Ness wants with it, so be wary.
- Bair and Uair are deadly, and the latter is a solid combo starter at low percents. Bair sweetspot is a bit less consistent this game, so Uair is probably what you'll see more.
- B-Throw is pretty much screaming "don't attack me unsafely on shield" or "don't overcommit" at higher %s.
- F-Smash isn't too great (y this range suck), and U-Smash is rather laggy and unsafe on shield. D-Smash however sends you on a really awkward angle and can net an early KO on you and even cover your getup options, like a tech chase. (7:17)
- PKT2 is a mindgame you need to be wary of. And remember, if he's on the ground trying to do it as you land, Shine stall! PK Flash should never net Ness a KO because Fox has the speed to get to Ness in almost every scenario and can avoid it with ease anyway.
- U-Tilt is actually solid, but the horizontal range isn't great so it shouldn't KO you too often.
- PKT tailwhip can set you up for a gimp and gives Ness free damage, and Shining the tail doesn't redirect back to him. PKT head however, can give Ness a free aerial (usually either Uair, but Nair or Bair work too) OR he can empty hop to bait you into an airdodge THEN attack depending on the angle that PKT is sent and where it hits you from.
- I've shown you the Fair spike, and in my match with Tanark you saw that I intercepted his Illusion with Dair, even though it didn't quite KO lol.
I don't remember the percents, or rather they're so inconsistent mainly from rage. X__x
I'd like someone else to get into Fox's KO combos & setups though lol, I don't know them too well myself. xD
==
Hm, not sure what else I can speak of... I covered the neutral, juggling, KOs and edgeguarding/recovery. Maybe stages now? I think here it's a matter of personal preference (with platforms vs. no platforms). I personally prefer them, not sure about Fox. But stages you may want to keep in mind to try and avoid:
On 3DS, BAN Brinstar if it's legal. He can setup PK Fires on the tentacles of the side making it cover your ledge options pretty well and B-Throw can KO pretty early. He also has some stupid things with PKT2 there lol.
On Wii U, Delfino might be a good ban because Ness can shark from under the stage decently and then the water makes his recovery a non-issue there. There's also the walk-offs which can get you KO'd pretty early by a throw!
Halberd might also be something to consider for it's lower ceiling (U-Air and U-Tilt lol)
I don't think a Ness would CP you to Lylat because PKF won't work too well there, but PKT recovery is really stupid there too.
Duck Hunt is probably something to consider because the Ducks can make PKT a nuisance to use and I believe it is boxed so you can give Ness an annoying time trying to recover from the left (but then again the right side can boost him so pick your poison)
With the neutrals, I don't see much hindrance/support with or without platforms, so it's pretty much personal preference. XD
==
And that wraps up my thoughts on my fave MU! Hope this helped, haha.
I don't think anyone has really covered stage options in this thread, and it's something we should probably talk about for these MUs (or maybe not, because Fox's stage choices are pretty straightforward. It's a matter of who you should and shouldn't take to Battlefield really). Anywayssss...
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To add to what you wrote, Fox uses platforms really well, but I'm not sure if Battlefield is a place where I'd want to take Ness. His aerial mobility and combobreaking are great, making it hard to play on advantage with these platform layouts. I've heard Ness mains talk about the stage ledges wreck Ness' PKT2 recovery, but I can't confirm this. Battlefield also makes it hard to fulljump nair around Ness' dominant sh game, and gives him more maneuverability around our jab cancels.
T&C is probably our best stage here. The platforms give you a lot of room to fulljump nairs, while still giving you landing traps on Ness. Also lower ceilings are a benefit, particularly in this MU where Fox dies 95% horizontally.
Really any stage that gives Ness this scaling horizontal aerial pressure on platforms (if that makes any sense) is something I'd want to avoid. Delfino is an obvious ban for many reasons. Lylat is another.
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Sonic does really well on any stage you bring him to as Fox, save for Battlefield..but this stage will almost always be banned by Sonic. T&C is naturally a good pick for Fox, but be aware that Sonic gets a lot of mileage out of the highrise platforms on this stage off of spindash setups. Trying to land as Fox can be a real nightmare here, but this rings true for Sonic as well.
Stage benefits are pretty neutral for both characters, to sum it up. I'm not 100% certain what I'd ban here. I ban Delfino out of personal inexperience, but I know Sonic does well on Duck Hunt and other short horizontal omega blastzones as well.
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Kirby is still an inexperienced character for me. Battlefield is probably a good choice against Kirby because it's easier to limit his aerial options. Not sure what stages are good ones for Kirby. Can anyone chime in here?
Can't talk too much about the other matchups - I wanna say they're also both even 50:50 but I have a personal block against Sonic (that this thread has helped a ton, thanks guys) and I've hardly ever played against Kirbys.
I've run into you twice maybe on FG (lol) and you did more than OK against me. Haven't got anything to add that's not been written already aside to keep your blaster in your holster because we can close the distance fast. Also as a Sonic I found that I did better when I neglected my spins because I keep getting punished OoS for it. Going for grabs, spacing tilts (particularly ftilts) and generally trying to stay grounded worked well, but both characters get juggled quite easily. Just be wary trying to punish sonics landing, don't commit to anything too early because we can stall our descent with homing attack. Neither Sonic or Fox are that good at approaching each other, so I feel getting a lead would be beneficial.
Haha, that's pretty cool if that's the case. I stopped playing FG a few months ago but played for a few games last week and did play a Sonic.
I've seen people in this thread say that Sonic's Dair is easily punished - how exactly? Does it have a lot of endlag I'm not aware of or should I be challenging it with something?
I've seen people in this thread say that Sonic's Dair is easily punished - how exactly? Does it have a lot of endlag I'm not aware of or should I be challenging it with something?
Unless Sonic is using it from an upB peak height, it's even more punishable than a Sheik or ZSS trying to land with dair (ZSS/Sheik at least get a ground hitbox. Sonic loses his aerial hitbox entirely before he can act out of dair). At the height where he is lagless, it's easy to watch for it. He has no escape options, unlike ZSS/Sheik downB, for example. Position yourself to punish with usmash/utilt if he were to dair. At a height where he would get landing lag from dair, you can start to challenge his landings for free.
It's far from a terrible landing option, but Fox normally has the speed to follow any attempts he makes to land.
I would've liked more discussion on Sonic, tbh, particularly on the tools Fox has to stop his spindash, beat his attacks before they come out, etc. I want to revisit that Sonic again and discuss it again in depth. Along with Diddy, it's shaping up to be one of the most common ones we'll encounter.
Good stuff with the Ness MU though.
New week: vs vs vs
Let's focus on how to play the matchup before the MU ratio this time.
Last comment on Sonic since you asked about spin dash. Ftilt is awesome for beating it. Jab and spindash cancel each other out usually. Nair is good for beating it too, but he may act out of it before you can nair if he reads you going for a sh nair.
Alright, so I main'd Fox before I switch over to Pit, but I still keep him as a Secondary. Lemme see if I can do an accurate write-up of this MU:
Let's see. Projectile-wise, Fox has the edge. His laser is faster than Pit's arrow, and his reflector has less startup and ending lag than Pit's Orbiters. If Pit thinks for a second that Orbiters are a good option in this MU, You get a free Grab > Fair > Uair combo.
Pit is a grab-oriented characters with spacing style similar to the likes of Marth. He'll want to keep you out while fishing for as many grabs as possible for maximum damage, with moves like Fair/Nair, Ftilt, and Dtilt. This means he can play both offensively and defensively depending on the opponent's play style. Also make note that even though Pit has a ton of landing lag, you'll hardly notice it because all of his aerials can auto-cancel.
That being said, Fox should stay as mobile as possible, and keep Pit on the defensive with his incredible speed. That way, you can read his defensive options and constantly keep the damage coming. With Fox's fast and/or constant hitboxes, Grab won't really be an option for Pit to take. The best combo-breaker move that Pit has is Nair, which is a decently fast Frame 4 move, but it has horrendous landing lag, and will only work if you don't see it coming. Pit still does have the option to SideB through your moves as well. Fox being a lightweight (tying for 5th with Pikachu and Olimar), can get destroyed by this move after over 100%. Don't grow too comfortable just throwing out hitboxes. If this move whiffs though, a free USmash for Fox.
If you do get grabbed, you're likely going to eat a Fthrow > Dash Attack, Dthrow > USmash, or Dthrow to Fair/Uair. The last one is a 50/50, depending on if you DI away or upward. Over 100%, do NOT get grabbed while Pit is facing the ledge. Fthrow can kill Fox relatively early because of how light he is, combined with whatever Rage Pit may have, and after about 140%, it's a stock if you can't mash out in time. Make sure to always DI upward and towards Pit. If you DI downward for whatever reason, you might just get killed at 80%. Also, be aware that Bthrow can also kill if you DI it improperly by the ledge as well.
Now even though I said being above stage is the worst position for anybody to be, being Offstage as Fox in this MU is truly worst. Pit has so many options to edgeguard Fox. Save your DJ for as late as possible, because you're in trouble if a Pit snipes you out of your DJ and you have to rely on UpB for vertical recovery. SideB is probably the safest option, especially if Pit doesn't know the timing to punish it or isn't in the correct position to. UpB is a free Bair Stagespike/Dair stagespike/Dair spike/Falloff Fair for Pit. These do require a bit of commitment, so be creative with your UpB recoveries as much as possible.
In the opposite situation, unless you stagespike Pit with a Bair (Putting yourself in an extremely risky position in the process), Pit will not die via the bottom blastzone. This means that securing a killing move is essential in this matchup, otherwise Pit will live to ridiculous percentages (My record is is 245% :D) where his Rage will be off the charts, meaning bad things for Fox's light self. Remember, don't get antsy and just throw out kill moves that whiff and allow Pit to capitalize on you. Bait out the defensive options of the player and punish them. A setup I like to use is Dthrow, then Empty hop to bait out the airdodge. At that point, if you see an airdodge, dash towards them and Uair/Bair them for the kill. If they're closer to the ground, USmash instead. If they didn't airdodge in the first place, next time, don't bother baiting and just go straight into the kill move.
I think that's about all I have that comes to mind. I'll answer as many questions as possible.
Sorry to interrupt your discussion. Thought I'd pop in to ask for your help dissecting the Mega Man v Fox matchup. We'll be focusing on it through Friday, so I encourage Fox mains to help correct what we inevitably get incorrect and share your experience!
Alright, so I main'd Fox before I switch over to Pit, but I still keep him as a Secondary. Lemme see if I can do an accurate write-up of this MU:
Let's see. Projectile-wise, Fox has the edge. His laser is faster than Pit's arrow, and his reflector has less startup and ending lag than Pit's Orbiters. If Pit thinks for a second that Orbiters are a good option in this MU, You get a free Grab > Fair > Uair combo.
Pit is a grab-oriented characters with spacing style similar to the likes of Marth. He'll want to keep you out while fishing for as many grabs as possible for maximum damage, with moves like Fair/Nair, Ftilt, and Dtilt. This means he can play both offensively and defensively depending on the opponent's play style. Also make note that even though Pit has a ton of landing lag, you'll hardly notice it because all of his aerials can auto-cancel.
That being said, Fox should stay as mobile as possible, and keep Pit on the defensive with his incredible speed. That way, you can read his defensive options and constantly keep the damage coming. With Fox's fast and/or constant hitboxes, Grab won't really be an option for Pit to take. The best combo-breaker move that Pit has is Nair, which is a decently fast Frame 4 move, but it has horrendous landing lag, and will only work if you don't see it coming. Pit still does have the option to SideB through your moves as well. Fox being a lightweight (tying for 5th with Pikachu and Olimar), can get destroyed by this move after over 100%. Don't grow too comfortable just throwing out hitboxes. If this move whiffs though, a free USmash for Fox.
If you do get grabbed, you're likely going to eat a Fthrow > Dash Attack, Dthrow > USmash, or Dthrow to Fair/Uair. The last one is a 50/50, depending on if you DI away or upward. Over 100%, do NOT get grabbed while Pit is facing the ledge. Fthrow can kill Fox relatively early because of how light he is, combined with whatever Rage Pit may have, and after about 140%, it's a stock if you can't mash out in time. Make sure to always DI upward and towards Pit. If you DI downward for whatever reason, you might just get killed at 80%. Also, be aware that Bthrow can also kill if you DI it improperly by the ledge as well.
Now even though I said being above stage is the worst position for anybody to be, being Offstage as Fox in this MU is truly worst. Pit has so many options to edgeguard Fox. Save your DJ for as late as possible, because you're in trouble if a Pit snipes you out of your DJ and you have to rely on UpB for vertical recovery. SideB is probably the safest option, especially if Pit doesn't know the timing to punish it or isn't in the correct position to. UpB is a free Bair Stagespike/Dair stagespike/Dair spike/Falloff Fair for Pit. These do require a bit of commitment, so be creative with your UpB recoveries as much as possible.
In the opposite situation, unless you stagespike Pit with a Bair (Putting yourself in an extremely risky position in the process), Pit will not die via the bottom blastzone. This means that securing a killing move is essential in this matchup, otherwise Pit will live to ridiculous percentages (My record is is 245% :D) where his Rage will be off the charts, meaning bad things for Fox's light self. Remember, don't get antsy and just throw out kill moves that whiff and allow Pit to capitalize on you. Bait out the defensive options of the player and punish them. A setup I like to use is Dthrow, then Empty hop to bait out the airdodge. At that point, if you see an airdodge, dash towards them and Uair/Bair them for the kill. If they're closer to the ground, USmash instead. If they didn't airdodge in the first place, next time, don't bother baiting and just go straight into the kill move.
I think that's about all I have that comes to mind. I'll answer as many questions as possible.
Most of the time we auto-cancel Nair, which isn't really hard and pressuring
what can I add:
don't bother reflecting Pit's arrows as 99% of the time they're being controlled, so they won't be reflected back to Pit, it'd be better to consider the ending lag of pit shooting the arrow and rush to him if you see that you can! (oh, beware from full hop arrows)
and shoot lasers only when really far from pit, otherwise don't ever do in the entire game so you don't get caught in Pit's combos, (on ground = grab into stuff, or ground/air = Dairs into stuff)
Rage Pit is scary, he usually doesn't kill (except FSmash by mid to edge and USmash), but Rage mode, makes Bair, a really fast move with the multiple jumps of Pit pretty strong by edge, same with Spiking with Dair, and Upperdash.
edit: I'd also like to add that Dark Pit's charged arrow deal 11 and they're hard to curve, it'd be worth it to reflect that.
Just to immediately get this out of the way, Pit is definitely the better of the two in this MU. Pit's sideB can kill Fox off the top very early. Maneuverable arrows really make recovery a chore given your small windows to actually recover as Fox.
Pit is a character that is looking for that strong grab game, and does so pretty well against any slipup Fox may have on shield. To keep it brief, you're looking to get Pitt off of the ground. His landing options are pretty garbage. Rather than trying to pressure his shield, you're better off just baiting an opening. A lot of Pit's options are very slow on endlag. Don't land on him and don't stay in lag, keep midstage control and you'll live to very long percents.
I might not bring Pit to Battlefield for the sole purpose of starving him out on kill options. usmash is a potent kill move on this stage.
Captain Falcon
I think this is a harder MU for Fox so long as Falcon is aware of Fox's shortcomings offstage. Getting anything going at low % against Falcon is hard. He falls too fast to be combo'd, and has much superior punish and boxing tools at close range. He does a great job at controlling grounded neutral with specials, DA, and that great dash grab that nets 20-30% easy. You're best off never airdodging against Falcon. It's better to take another uair than it is to get knee or dair read.
Falcon's landing options are also pretty poor, and as a fastfaller can take some serious punishment in mid percents. Once you grab advantage, you need to hold onto it with all you've got. A smart Falcon will look to ledge reset as he's free as hell on landing traps when vs. Fox. This is still good for Fox, as Falcons getup options are not the greatest. Outside of that, though, I can't say there's much really swinging in favor of Fox here. You're outclassed on the ground, and that sucks. Falcon excels at juggling and punishing your landings, and he does it hard. Recovery is very hard against bair/dair/utilt, and he pressures the edge incredibly well. Rage Falcon is incredibly scary, and Fox will not guarantee closing out stocks at early percents. This MU will really test your skill to hold advantage and juggle reliably with utilts and uairs. Don't do anything risky or you're dead at 50% etc etc.
As far as stages are concerned, Battlefield is a tossup. I personally avoid it due to Falcon's juggle game becoming a monster on this stage with those uairs, and Fox really can't afford to be hit. I like T&C here as you really force Falcon to respect your uair frametraps on higher platforms, or he's dead early (FINALLY). I think platforms in general help Fox, but the low static platforms of BF are very hard to escape against a Falcon. SV and T&C are much nicer.
Falcon's neutral isn't as good as Fox's (watch out for jab), but his mobility is generally better. Unlike Sanic, Falcon can't mix up his approaches like him and is a bit easier to handle imo.
One thing I noticed, Tearbear vs Larry Lurr, Falcon's hurtbox is odd when he uses up-B. I managed to get the nasty D-smash he got on Tearbear offstage at a local against a Falcon here in my area. Something to do with hitting his hand if he's right up against the stage. See: https://youtu.be/JRauF_Lrv0Q?t=13m39s
Another nice thing Fox can do is jab-lock Falcon past ~100% (maybe a bit more) and U-smash to KO him, removing rage Falcon which is otherwise deadly for Fox to go up against.
Vs. Pit and Dark Pit Fox wins the neutral pretty convincingly. Arrows shouldn't be too much of a threat onstage with the reflector and Pit is a good weight and fall speed that all of the jab shenanigans work on him.
Fox's combo, damage output, and juggling is a lot better than Pit's. Fox can harass him from below with Pit not having much he can do with his slow aerial momentum.
The biggest advantage Pit has in this match up is his edge guarding. Pit's arrows make it really difficult for Fox to recover from, especially if he's caught offstage without a jump. That, combined with his dair spike make Pit one of the best characters at edge guarding Fox. Unfortunately, Dark Pit's lack of arrow maneuverability make this match up worse for him. Regular Pit definitely has a better match up against Fox than Dark Pit.
Captain Falcon and Fox both kind of destroy each other. In terms of kill power Falcon has the advantage, but Fox's combo and damage output on Falcon can be pretty ridiculous. Both characters edge guard each other well with Fox having a slight advantage because of how bad Falcon's recovery is. I'd say both characters have a fairly even neutral game with Fox having a small edge because of his utilt.
In my experience with the Falcon matchup, whoever gets the first stock tends to have a pretty significant advantage. Like DEHF said, we both destroy each other but he also has the advantage of being quite heavy and being able to kill us with ridiculous ease thanks to rage. I don't think this matchup is bad, just annoying how easily you can die to one mistake.
@DavemanCozy
Any chance you could put the matchup details (pros and cons, how too play against said character) in the initial post? It would be much better than having to skim the entire thread. You could quote many of the members here who posted good points and strats regarding matchups.
Timbers
yes exactly what I said. Sonic has a lot of moves that have ending lag that u can punish. Example all his smash attacks. They aren't like the plumbers or captain where its hard to punish there end lag after they do a smash attack. Sonic cant just keep throwing out smash attacks in a row like they can. Sonics aerials, all u have to do is wait for him to throw one out, stay close enough not to get hit or shield and punish him. Every single one of his aierals you can do that for. His bair if it hits your shield than yea you can't punish him because of the push back but if you are close and he misses it you can get him for it.
. Otherwise Sonic controls the tempo, and you're almost always going to have to play a stage he gets more out of than Fox does.
