Delta-cod
Smash Hero
He'd be playing...Raptor...
And that's the only one I know about. *shrug*
And that's the only one I know about. *shrug*
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Data All Aircraft Report! - Fox MU Discussion Thread
- Thread starter DavemanCozy
- Start date
NAKAT
Smash Champion
None in New Jersey. I only have experience vs. Yoshi's online. Then I just put the matchup in retrospect so you don't have to listen to me. I honestly feel like the majority of Yoshi players try to mimick Brawl Yoshi which is not good imo.
We mimic brawl yoshi cause Yoshi was barely changed not including OoS options, and even then the glaring flaws for him are still there.
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M@v
Subarashii!
This. Yoshi definitely plays a lot different than brawl now.
Shorthop egg toss and Fair spam over grounded egg toss and Bair spam now.
Dang.
Dang.
DavemanCozy
Smash Photographer
Seems like Yoshi will have to be an MU to go back to discussing.
Speaking of annoying moves that kill follow ups: Mario and specially Weegs N-airs. We'll be discussing:
vs
vs
vs
Plumber edition. Busy for the next few days, but imo:
vs (50:50)
vs (55:45)
vs (45:55)
Are my numbers.
Speaking of annoying moves that kill follow ups: Mario and specially Weegs N-airs. We'll be discussing:
vs vs vs Plumber edition. Busy for the next few days, but imo:
vs (50:50) vs (55:45) vs (45:55)Are my numbers.
HeroMystic
Legacy of the Mario
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Fox can combo the crap out of Mario. Mario can combo the crap out of Fox.
Fox can kill Mario with easy kill confirms. Mario can kill Fox with B-throw and tech-chase reads.
Both have a hard time approaching each other and both have to really dedicate themselves to baiting each other and maximizing their damage.
Absolutely even. It really depends on which player has the better reads.
Fox can kill Mario with easy kill confirms. Mario can kill Fox with B-throw and tech-chase reads.
Both have a hard time approaching each other and both have to really dedicate themselves to baiting each other and maximizing their damage.
Absolutely even. It really depends on which player has the better reads.
Kisatamura
Prescriber of Manami.
Seems right to me. Doc doesn't have the speed advantage like Mario does, but I think Doc is better at edgeguarding Fox in this MU than Mario due to Dr. Tornado. I'd consider it almost even if I really wanted to push it, but since nobody in this MU is going to outrange each other and it's going to be upclose, it's heavily based upon outplaying.
I guess the only real meaningful difference for Fox in this MU is Dr. Tornado, Doc's UpB, and dair. Dr. Tornado has longer range than it looks, and as mentioned it can serve as an edgeguard which can potentially KO Fox at the edges if at high percents.
I guess the only real meaningful difference for Fox in this MU is Dr. Tornado, Doc's UpB, and dair. Dr. Tornado has longer range than it looks, and as mentioned it can serve as an edgeguard which can potentially KO Fox at the edges if at high percents.
Foster J.
Smash Ace
I kind of want to say that the MU against Mario is slightly in Fox's favour, as reflecting lasers is less effective, than getting a reflected fireball back in his face, but Mario does have the good old switcherio with the cape against Illusion or Fire Fox.
I feel like you can out camp Mario in this MU, or force him to play aggressive at least. I wanna say though, the fact he's got combo throws and a killing Bthrow does suck.
50:50
If this was a case of LarryLurr v Ally we'd probably see the real MU.
It's kind of the same with Doctor Mario, though he's heavier, less range on the Fsmash, and worse recovery, it's not like Fox players will capitalize on the weaker Up B and for do a fast fall Fair or Dair in most cases, and by him having the Tornado instead of Fludd giving him a nasty Dair, I'm kind of feeling this is sort of the same MU as Mario.
50:50
As for Luigi? Those grabs man, it's DI or Die. He's got great spacing, and Luigi really likes to grab, so taking note of the fireball approach you can sometimes just reflect it and watch him shield it / take it and then go for a grab/dash attack yourself. He's floaty so keeping him airborne is to your advantage, I'd avoid the front him of cause of the Fair, but the Nair is a pain too.
I feel his killing prowers are a lot better than the Mario's though, but he's slightly easier to control if you can keep him in the air, or play anti grab on the ground. It's kind of like the Diddy MU, you're better at the neutral, but avoid grabs.... That Tornado though.
45:55
I feel like you can out camp Mario in this MU, or force him to play aggressive at least. I wanna say though, the fact he's got combo throws and a killing Bthrow does suck.
50:50If this was a case of LarryLurr v Ally we'd probably see the real MU.
It's kind of the same with Doctor Mario, though he's heavier, less range on the Fsmash, and worse recovery, it's not like Fox players will capitalize on the weaker Up B and for do a fast fall Fair or Dair in most cases, and by him having the Tornado instead of Fludd giving him a nasty Dair, I'm kind of feeling this is sort of the same MU as Mario.
50:50As for Luigi? Those grabs man, it's DI or Die. He's got great spacing, and Luigi really likes to grab, so taking note of the fireball approach you can sometimes just reflect it and watch him shield it / take it and then go for a grab/dash attack yourself. He's floaty so keeping him airborne is to your advantage, I'd avoid the front him of cause of the Fair, but the Nair is a pain too.
I feel his killing prowers are a lot better than the Mario's though, but he's slightly easier to control if you can keep him in the air, or play anti grab on the ground. It's kind of like the Diddy MU, you're better at the neutral, but avoid grabs.... That Tornado though.
45:55
NAKAT
Smash Champion
Fox loses to Luigi and beats Doc. Mario is even
I beat Ally with Fox
I beat Ally with Fox
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D
Deleted member
Guest
Hello! I am a Luigi main! I'll just copy and paste what I had to say in the Luigi match-up thread.
Though, I think it's 55:45 Luigi.
Admittedly, I haven't fought too many Foxes and I don't have too much knowledge on Fox, but I think I have a relative idea on how the match-up goes.
Though, I think it's 55:45 Luigi.
Mario even jabs work great against Mario. Esp at kill ℅.. Jab-jab dsmash
55/45 over doc he is like a slower and more punishable mario
45/55 Luigi
Luigi is the character that is on diddys level against fox. Once u get familiar with what fox can and can't do against Luigi. And what Luigi can and can't do. The match gets a hell of a lot easier. Avoid grabs at all cost. U need to be more defensive against Luigi but still applying pressure, u need to create space and don't get trapped in the corner against him. What works great against all of the plummers is the fair spike. None of them can survive it.
55/45 over doc he is like a slower and more punishable mario
45/55 Luigi
Luigi is the character that is on diddys level against fox. Once u get familiar with what fox can and can't do against Luigi. And what Luigi can and can't do. The match gets a hell of a lot easier. Avoid grabs at all cost. U need to be more defensive against Luigi but still applying pressure, u need to create space and don't get trapped in the corner against him. What works great against all of the plummers is the fair spike. None of them can survive it.
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Timbers
check me out
Luigi
This is a hard MU.
This MU needs to be played very differently as Fox. Be super aware of what is safe on shield, because Fox gets dthrow combo'd very hard and dies very early to Luigi. Luigi's low traction makes moves that normally wouldn't be safe on shield, safe. You can throw out usmash on shield and be safe, which is big to note. Ftilt is a particularly good move in this MU as it's like, the only move you have that outranges Luigi's 10% jab combo lol. It also pushes Luigi away so you can get a few lasers in after the fact.
Killing Luigi is rough, and it's because of nair. No jab cancel stuff, Fox nair -> usmash has a much lower success rate due to Luigi's nair intercepting (and if you're lucky enough, you die to his nair at 120%). You're really forced to get Luigi in the air and then looking to trap his landings with bairs and uairs, or usmash (I hate contesting an airborne Luigi with usmash though, his nair is incredibly disjointed beneath him). I feel like it's much easier said than done though, because Luigi does so well at punishing Fox's attempts.
Not to be beating this to death, but Fox's recovery sucks, and Luigi makes it incredibly apparent with downB gimps easily intercepting sideB and upB. on the note of sideB, I'd recommend not throwing it out in this MU either, as a sex kick nair the size of Luigi's will always intercept it.
I'm not sure of the optimal way to play this MU. It is by far the most passive MU I play as Fox, and will keep my distance as long as I must. Luigi outdamages, outcombos, outranges, stronger neutral, more kill potential. I really want to nail home the fact that Luigi's grab and jabs get way more mileage than anything Fox has on the ground. I think it's the hardest Fox MU along with Diddy. 40:60 is much more likely than 45:55. Am I in the minority here?
Mario
I think what everyone else has said here about Mario is accurate. Both characters struggle to approach each other, and both characters can be punished heavily by each other. Mario's frame data is great, don't overcommit to anything and instead look to be punishing on reaction. Be safe, don't ever try landing on/next to him. You'll find that Mario struggles to kill you so long as you're not caught in lag.
It's definitely 50:50, or very close to this. As Fox further develops and we as players become more competent in our frametraps, it may swing slightly into Fox's favor.
Doc
I'm lacking experience in this MU. Theory suggests that this is overall an easier MU for Fox than Mario. I don't like comparing Doc and Mario, but for the sake of simplicity I will. Doc's uair knockback trajectory is not nearly as threatening to Fox as Mario's, his dthrow combo is less scary, and it's much easier to dance around Doc's slow mobility. Pills are much less threatening due to Doc's inability to effectively follow pills. Doc does have downB that wrecks Fox's recovery and a better sh bair game. Be aware of Doc's upB punishes, they're good.
Again I only have a little bit of experience in this MU, but it probably swings 55:45 easily.
This is a hard MU.
Good write-up, I agree for the most part, and would like to emphasize this point:
Fox's biggest benefit here is the ability to punish Luigi's landings due to floaty + poor aerial mobility, so in that situation I'd say that Fox has the advantage in the air. Luigi nair will outrange and outdamage Fox's aerials, and will usually trade with a lot of Fox's multihit aerials (making the damage gap that much worse). Still, you are safest when contesting an airborne Luigi as it's at least easy to space out his poor aerial mobility specs.
This MU needs to be played very differently as Fox. Be super aware of what is safe on shield, because Fox gets dthrow combo'd very hard and dies very early to Luigi. Luigi's low traction makes moves that normally wouldn't be safe on shield, safe. You can throw out usmash on shield and be safe, which is big to note. Ftilt is a particularly good move in this MU as it's like, the only move you have that outranges Luigi's 10% jab combo lol. It also pushes Luigi away so you can get a few lasers in after the fact.
Killing Luigi is rough, and it's because of nair. No jab cancel stuff, Fox nair -> usmash has a much lower success rate due to Luigi's nair intercepting (and if you're lucky enough, you die to his nair at 120%). You're really forced to get Luigi in the air and then looking to trap his landings with bairs and uairs, or usmash (I hate contesting an airborne Luigi with usmash though, his nair is incredibly disjointed beneath him). I feel like it's much easier said than done though, because Luigi does so well at punishing Fox's attempts.
Not to be beating this to death, but Fox's recovery sucks, and Luigi makes it incredibly apparent with downB gimps easily intercepting sideB and upB. on the note of sideB, I'd recommend not throwing it out in this MU either, as a sex kick nair the size of Luigi's will always intercept it.
I'm not sure of the optimal way to play this MU. It is by far the most passive MU I play as Fox, and will keep my distance as long as I must. Luigi outdamages, outcombos, outranges, stronger neutral, more kill potential. I really want to nail home the fact that Luigi's grab and jabs get way more mileage than anything Fox has on the ground. I think it's the hardest Fox MU along with Diddy. 40:60 is much more likely than 45:55. Am I in the minority here?
Mario
I think what everyone else has said here about Mario is accurate. Both characters struggle to approach each other, and both characters can be punished heavily by each other. Mario's frame data is great, don't overcommit to anything and instead look to be punishing on reaction. Be safe, don't ever try landing on/next to him. You'll find that Mario struggles to kill you so long as you're not caught in lag.
It's definitely 50:50, or very close to this. As Fox further develops and we as players become more competent in our frametraps, it may swing slightly into Fox's favor.
Doc
I'm lacking experience in this MU. Theory suggests that this is overall an easier MU for Fox than Mario. I don't like comparing Doc and Mario, but for the sake of simplicity I will. Doc's uair knockback trajectory is not nearly as threatening to Fox as Mario's, his dthrow combo is less scary, and it's much easier to dance around Doc's slow mobility. Pills are much less threatening due to Doc's inability to effectively follow pills. Doc does have downB that wrecks Fox's recovery and a better sh bair game. Be aware of Doc's upB punishes, they're good.
Again I only have a little bit of experience in this MU, but it probably swings 55:45 easily.
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DavemanCozy
Smash Photographer
@XenoBrawler610, Fox Illusion can spike? (that ain't Falco?)
Also, I find it interesting how certain Luigis find the Little Mac MU difficult while others say it's in his favour (sounds like this thread).
As for Luigi, I witnessed Ariel (a Windsor main) beat TO Joe last night in both pools and bracket. Blacktwins and I played him on friendlies too. Luigi is certainly not an easy MU for Fox, the cyclone KOs off the top (if Luigi actually mashes it slower, he won't go high enough to let Fox escape from the bottom of the cyclone) or bottom of stage (by mashing it as fast as possible to dump Fox). I'll post more once EGE posts the replays.
Also, I find it interesting how certain Luigis find the Little Mac MU difficult while others say it's in his favour (sounds like this thread).
As for Luigi, I witnessed Ariel (a Windsor main) beat TO Joe last night in both pools and bracket. Blacktwins and I played him on friendlies too. Luigi is certainly not an easy MU for Fox, the cyclone KOs off the top (if Luigi actually mashes it slower, he won't go high enough to let Fox escape from the bottom of the cyclone) or bottom of stage (by mashing it as fast as possible to dump Fox). I'll post more once EGE posts the replays.
D
Deleted member
Guest
I believe that the Fox Illusion can meteor smash not spike (my bad). I know that I got hit by it and was meteored once and I know that's been a staple since Melee.
DavemanCozy
Smash Photographer
Are you absolutely sure? Replay or something? To my knowledge, Fox Illusion has never been able to meteor nor spike. That has always been Falco and Wolf with their spikes on side-B.
Not counting janky stage spikes vs Villagers, I have never gotten a meteor nor spike using Illusion.
I guess Wolf Flash would be good in this case with no free-falling after it. Dunno how well it would do vs Luigi though, never played this match with customs and Cyclone is a move I don't like to challenge off-stage as Fox either way.
Timbers
check me out
You most likely experienced a stagespike. Fox's sideB will always send people upwards.
I wonder what sort of priority upB3 truly has. I know it gets a bigger hitbox in front of Fox, but I wonder if it's enough to be able to safely eat through some of these multihit spikes. Luigi's that are able to do jumpless cyclones pretty much have an endless recovery lol, I agree that the risk of trying to Wolf Flash him may not be nearly rewarding for the risk.
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D
Deleted member
Guest
That's probably the reason why. I just checked Smash Wiki and it didn't say the Fox Illusion meteors characters.
My bad.
M@v
Subarashii!
Sweet. We are discussing a matchup between my 2 top characters (Fox and Mario). When I get more time tonight I'll approach it with what both sides should do in the MU. I also used to play doc before going to Mario. In the mean time, I do agree with the general consensus so far: Fox beats Doc, even with Mario, loses to Luigi (Although its not nearly as bad as it was in Brawl).
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A2ZOMG
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Doc's combos aren't really much worse than Mario's. Mario's D-throw is pretty crappy on Fox unless he has like about 10-20%. He can instead do U-throw U-smash/D-air at 0 which also does decent damage, though Doc also gets U-throw/D-throw U-smash at 0%. Plus Doc can still set up into U-tilt at 0 from D-throw, which depending on how Fox reacts can still net a sizable amount of damage. Landing a raw U-tilt actually is much easier for Doc in this matchup than it is in other matchups due to Fox's really short range, so the threat of his significantly more damaging U-tilt juggles can't really be ignored even if his setups into it aren't as braindead.
The main thing I feel Doc has more difficulty with in the Fox matchup is chasing Fox's SideB escape, so laser camping is more annoying for Doc to approach against. Other than that his spacing game is better with a lower SH B-air that does more damage and he does significantly better killing Fox with Tornado and Up-B. Doc's Up-B being a kill move is really important to factor when overcommitting to Jab cancel combos, given Doc can interrupt with his Up-B for a pretty sizable punish.
I think both of Fox's matchups vs Doc and Mario are about even, but if I had to argue someone doing better, I'd more argue in favor of Doc because outside of very specific combo situations, his overall damage dealing is better than Mario's which combined with a greater variety of KO options puts Fox at danger %s sooner, and he holds a lead better with stronger defensive options. Though it's semantics at this point, given Fox is generally pretty outright terrible against the Marios when he's behind.
In a custom setting, Fox can easily be comboed into EJP and Ol One Two from both of them at KO percents. Given Fox's options even on customs aren't very good for edgeguarding Doc or Mario, I believe this potentially swings the matchup in their favor.
The main thing I feel Doc has more difficulty with in the Fox matchup is chasing Fox's SideB escape, so laser camping is more annoying for Doc to approach against. Other than that his spacing game is better with a lower SH B-air that does more damage and he does significantly better killing Fox with Tornado and Up-B. Doc's Up-B being a kill move is really important to factor when overcommitting to Jab cancel combos, given Doc can interrupt with his Up-B for a pretty sizable punish.
I think both of Fox's matchups vs Doc and Mario are about even, but if I had to argue someone doing better, I'd more argue in favor of Doc because outside of very specific combo situations, his overall damage dealing is better than Mario's which combined with a greater variety of KO options puts Fox at danger %s sooner, and he holds a lead better with stronger defensive options. Though it's semantics at this point, given Fox is generally pretty outright terrible against the Marios when he's behind.
In a custom setting, Fox can easily be comboed into EJP and Ol One Two from both of them at KO percents. Given Fox's options even on customs aren't very good for edgeguarding Doc or Mario, I believe this potentially swings the matchup in their favor.
Timbers
check me out
Thanks for the input. Doc mains are sorely lacking sadly. The few things that have really stuck out to me that seems to work very well for Doc in this MU is sh bair, upB, tornado. It's more of speculation at this point, so I'm glad that you were able to confirm.
I actually had two questions if you don't mind.
Is Doc's tornado anything similar to Luigi's? As in, does it multihit spike/gimp recoveries a la Luigi?
If I recall correctly, Doc's upB hitbox is frame 3. Do you know what frames are invincible?
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A2ZOMG
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It's possible to stagespike people with Doc's Tornado similar to how you can with Luigi's, though in actual practice he's much more likely to simply just directly kill horizontally with it.
EDIT: Doc's Up-B doesn't have invincibility, though due to the hitlag modifier, it is sometimes possible for Doc to trade with certain weak moves (like Jabs) and combo into a second Up-B.
EDIT: Doc's Up-B doesn't have invincibility, though due to the hitlag modifier, it is sometimes possible for Doc to trade with certain weak moves (like Jabs) and combo into a second Up-B.
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Kisatamura
Prescriber of Manami.
Tornado can sometimes gimp, but it's quite inconsistent and it'll just probably send the opponent away like A2ZOMG said. It can also be used to shift horizontal movement and stall to avoid getting hit by Fox's setups to Uair.
DavemanCozy
Smash Photographer
Good thing you mention this, this means thay Fox can't jab lock Doc.
I played Astro at the Come Up and noticed that he would go for the UpB to escape every time I got my jabs going.
Basically both Marios have an escape out of our jab stuff in UpB.
Mario Fox is even, they both just wreck each other.
Luigi Fox is even or 55:45 Luigi's favor
Luigi's combos and gimping capabilities are amazing, but Fox also has great combos and speed to make it difficult for Luigi to catch him.
Doc Fox is probably 60:40 Fox's favor. It's like Mario, except he has more kill power, less mobility, and less combo potential.
Luigi Fox is even or 55:45 Luigi's favor
Luigi's combos and gimping capabilities are amazing, but Fox also has great combos and speed to make it difficult for Luigi to catch him.
Doc Fox is probably 60:40 Fox's favor. It's like Mario, except he has more kill power, less mobility, and less combo potential.
Timbers
check me out
I don't think this option is an end-all against Mario and Doc though. It's not safe for them to be throwing out upB's whenever a jab cancel presents itself. Fox enters a 50/50 situation where he can followup or shield. shield the upB and punish heavily, or shield and get grabbed. It's a better situation than opting for no jabs at least, as going into flurry gives Mario a free upB punish, and I'd imagine Doc as well (Doc's being the scarier of the two).
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DaRkJaWs
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Since I'm a DK main i'll just throw out my 2 cents on Fox vs. DK: yes, about 60-40, maybe better for Fox. With customs I've never faced a fox but the only thing you have to factor in is how kong cyclone changes the matchup...dk can get out of some of fox's juggles with up+b, can potentially kill fox with cargo upthrow to kong cyclone once the % is right and the fox decides to air dodge rather than jump, but if Fox's customs make him any better than the matchup is still in his favor. And with that said let me make a comment on custom DK....Kong cyclone has for some reason become the whipping boy of all of smash 4, when most of you have rarely ever played against it except for a few times and immediately thought "OMG OP" or "OMG IMBA, SAKURAI NERF PLZ!!" Other than letting DK get out of juggles without getting punished, and being more annoying when he uses it in the air, it in no way makes DK imbalanced whatsoever, if for example one wants to say diddy's hoo-haw is a 10 on a scale of 1 to 10 with 1 being ever so slightly imbalanced and 10 being most imbalanced (just hypothetically speaking, don't actually believe this), then DK's kong cyclone is like a 3 or 4. NO JOKE. Because you can't take the move and judge it on it's own, the question is does it let DK become a killer, and the answer is largely NO. It just lets DK protect himself a little better and be a little more annoying. that's all it does. If you people learn how to fight against it, you would know that you can air dodge it; you can do damage to DK while you're in his cyclone and do just as much if not more damage to him; that in the first frames of the startup and towards the end of the move DK is still vulnerable to spikes, etc; that you can actually use kong cyclone to hitch a free ride back to the stage, especially if the DK went off stage to try to kill you.
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DavemanCozy
Smash Photographer
Plumber week has passed. Starting discussion on Ness, Kirby, and Gotta-go-fast.
vs
vs
vs
I'll comment on Kirby, since my brother plays him:
50:50
This is an MU I remember from the Brawl days being quite annoying for Fox. Kirby's throw game would lead from 0% - 80% combos and nasty setups from throws.
Luckily for Fox, Kirby has lost many of the benefits he had from throws, specially Kirby's d-throw getting hit hard in this game.
Kirby's crouch is very annoying. We can't really force him to approach with lasers, our f-tilt needs to be angled down to hit him, and jab & grab misses him while he's crouching. None of the jab stuff will really work against him at lower than 80%. At higher than 80%, jab -> jab 2 -> U-smash works against him (do it fast though, otherwise Kirby will just jump away)... but again, Kirby can just crouch to avoid the first jab.
Although Kirby might be able to crouch under our lasers... there's no real incentive that makes Fox approach either since Kirby doesn't have anything to force approaches unless he swallows Fox. This matchup therefore can play out extremely lame, since none of the characters have an incentive to approach and neither can really force the other to get close either. Whoever gets the lead can just run away and do nothing.
Both characters have powerful U-smashes to KO each other and U-tilts to juggle each other. Both characters also got their D-tilts buffed: Kirby's is faster, and Fox's has the tipper that leads into air setups. Kirby's is probably better, since it is a good interruption.
Ultimately, I feel that the nerfs to Kirby's throw game (which used to make life hard for Fox) bring this MU closer to even than what it was in Brawl.
EDIT: worth mentioning about Custom specials: Laser-3 all the way. Kirby can't crouch under it and it forces him to approach us. See M@v's use of it: short hops and jumping cancels the startup holster pull of the gun, making it fire faster.
vsvsvsI'll comment on Kirby, since my brother plays him:
50:50 This is an MU I remember from the Brawl days being quite annoying for Fox. Kirby's throw game would lead from 0% - 80% combos and nasty setups from throws.
Luckily for Fox, Kirby has lost many of the benefits he had from throws, specially Kirby's d-throw getting hit hard in this game.
Kirby's crouch is very annoying. We can't really force him to approach with lasers, our f-tilt needs to be angled down to hit him, and jab & grab misses him while he's crouching. None of the jab stuff will really work against him at lower than 80%. At higher than 80%, jab -> jab 2 -> U-smash works against him (do it fast though, otherwise Kirby will just jump away)... but again, Kirby can just crouch to avoid the first jab.
Although Kirby might be able to crouch under our lasers... there's no real incentive that makes Fox approach either since Kirby doesn't have anything to force approaches unless he swallows Fox. This matchup therefore can play out extremely lame, since none of the characters have an incentive to approach and neither can really force the other to get close either. Whoever gets the lead can just run away and do nothing.
Both characters have powerful U-smashes to KO each other and U-tilts to juggle each other. Both characters also got their D-tilts buffed: Kirby's is faster, and Fox's has the tipper that leads into air setups. Kirby's is probably better, since it is a good interruption.
Ultimately, I feel that the nerfs to Kirby's throw game (which used to make life hard for Fox) bring this MU closer to even than what it was in Brawl.
EDIT: worth mentioning about Custom specials: Laser-3 all the way. Kirby can't crouch under it and it forces him to approach us. See M@v's use of it: short hops and jumping cancels the startup holster pull of the gun, making it fire faster.
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60/40 fox over ness. Ness is too slow to keep up with fox. Pk fire is easy to punish. You can use the lasers wisely to force an approach from ness or force him to magnet and punish him for it. The throw and aerials is all you have to worry about. Don't give ness the back throw and you have him beat.
55/45 fox over kriby. I was thinking of making it even but u have more trouble with Mario than kirby. And I think the Mario matchup is even. Just don't get spiked
55/45 fox over sonic. A lot of sonics attacks are punishable and have ending lag to them. Shield a lot against him but don't get grabbed. Sonic really can't fight fox in a head to head fight without dashing around. If sonic wants to camp around shoot a laser at him. Only one or two only if you kniw you can pull it off because his speed will get you. Punish him for using aerials. Jab-jab works good. Getting right underneath him for uair is great
55/45 fox over kriby. I was thinking of making it even but u have more trouble with Mario than kirby. And I think the Mario matchup is even. Just don't get spiked
55/45 fox over sonic. A lot of sonics attacks are punishable and have ending lag to them. Shield a lot against him but don't get grabbed. Sonic really can't fight fox in a head to head fight without dashing around. If sonic wants to camp around shoot a laser at him. Only one or two only if you kniw you can pull it off because his speed will get you. Punish him for using aerials. Jab-jab works good. Getting right underneath him for uair is great
DavemanCozy
Smash Photographer
Could you elaborate more? Comparing the MU to Mario isn't really helpful, they're different characters and the MUs are played differently.
Kirby's crouching stance alone shuts down our jab confirms. His D-tilt is effective in starting things on us out when we try getting in on Kirby. And his U-tilt is quite dangerous too.
Kirby is one of my least favorite matchups in this game, not in terms of winnability, but in terms of how tedious it can be.
kirbyfan66
Smash Journeyman
Keep in mind that Kirby can crouch under lasers - or wait, Custom 3 doesn't let Kirby crouch under them? Dang.
Are the slow? Can Kirby easily spotdodge it?
I don't think Fox has answer to Kirby's Up Tilt shenanigans like, say, Greninja does. If you use Fire Fox it should also be noted that Kirby has more than enough time to Down Air, Stone, or various other slower moves. Down Air is especially bad since it's a meteor!
What are Fox's customs like? For Kirby, most of us like either 3231 or 3233 (Jumping Inhale/Hammer Bash/Upper Cutter/Stone or Meteor Stone). Hammer Bash is a faster Hammer and Upper Cutter is basically Dolphin Slash except much better. For this matchup, I think 3233 is our set because we can actually find scenarios to land Meteor Stone. I personally use Wave Cutter (we only have one Wave Cutter set) - it's pretty good here, getting Fox offstage is nice. As Kirby, at least. Fox Illusion is harder to hit, at least.
Fox is fast enough to punish Kirby's slower moves, but if Kirby can stay in the air and poke a lot, he should be safe. Fox's Up Smash is scary, but if Kirby plays safe enough then he shouldn't be getting punished by it. Getting a good read is probably the best way to land it.
It isn't that bad for Fox, although I don't know much about the matchup. I'd guess, at worst, it's 60:40 in Kirby's favor and, at best, 50:50.
Are the slow? Can Kirby easily spotdodge it?
I don't think Fox has answer to Kirby's Up Tilt shenanigans like, say, Greninja does. If you use Fire Fox it should also be noted that Kirby has more than enough time to Down Air, Stone, or various other slower moves. Down Air is especially bad since it's a meteor!
What are Fox's customs like? For Kirby, most of us like either 3231 or 3233 (Jumping Inhale/Hammer Bash/Upper Cutter/Stone or Meteor Stone). Hammer Bash is a faster Hammer and Upper Cutter is basically Dolphin Slash except much better. For this matchup, I think 3233 is our set because we can actually find scenarios to land Meteor Stone. I personally use Wave Cutter (we only have one Wave Cutter set
) - it's pretty good here, getting Fox offstage is nice. As Kirby, at least. Fox Illusion is harder to hit, at least.Fox is fast enough to punish Kirby's slower moves, but if Kirby can stay in the air and poke a lot, he should be safe. Fox's Up Smash is scary, but if Kirby plays safe enough then he shouldn't be getting punished by it. Getting a good read is probably the best way to land it.
It isn't that bad for Fox, although I don't know much about the matchup. I'd guess, at worst, it's 60:40 in Kirby's favor and, at best, 50:50.
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DavemanCozy
Smash Photographer
You can spot dodge it for sure, but short-hop -> laser3 cancels the startup of the gun, and the short-hop lets Fox shoot it right as he lands so it travels along the ground. Still has endlag of putting the gun away.
As for the projectile itself: it's basically Wolf's laser from Brawl in terms of the speed it moves at. It's quite powerful in this game.
Yeah, U-tilt is nasty. Fox players should usually do their best to mix up their recoveries, so they're not caught getting their side-b clipped. Against Kirby, this is pretty tough to do though because multiple jumps.
Fox usually runs laser3, side1 or side3 (side3 is Wolf Flash), up2 (Flying Fox, very little startup but no hitbox either) or up3 (Twisting Fox, a twister instead of fire, multiple hits on startup that suck in opponents, it KOs at 100% and is very hard to DI out of), and down1 or down2 (Big Shine with a windbox).What are Fox's customs like? For Kirby, most of us like either 3231 or 3233 (Jumping Inhale/Hammer Bash/Upper Cutter/Stone or Meteor Stone). Hammer Bash is a faster Hammer and Upper Cutter is basically Dolphin Slash except much better. For this matchup, I think 3233 is our set because we can actually find scenarios to land Meteor Stone. I personally use Wave Cutter (we only have one Wave Cutter set
Against Kirby, I'd imagine the best set to run would be 3322.
Laser3 would give us the much needed projectile that Kirby can't crouch under. Side3 is Wolf Flash with the Meteor hitbox at the end, and can cover situations when Kirby forces to go a tad low offstage. Up2 is basically Fire Fox without any startup, making it superior against Kirby to avoid getting gimped while it's starting. Shine2's windbox might not be of much help vs Kirby, though if he uses UpB, the windbox will push Kirby away as he helplessly falls (this scenario will be quite rare though because again, multiple jumps).
Well like I said, jab -> jab 2 -> U-smash is guaranteed on Kirby after ~80% if Fox is fast enough to hit him before he tries jumping away. Then again, it requires the jab to confirm first, and against Kirby that's a real pain.
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Timbers
check me out
Sonic
a MU where your vertical spacing really shines. Your success depends on how well you can follow and punish his landings.
I've found that throwing out a lot of ff nairs from sh or fh works at least decently. It stuffs a lot of Sonic's approaches/pivot attempts. Do not become impatient in this MU as there will be a lot of times where you're forced to play Sonic's game. Obviously do not ever contest a grounded spindash, it tacks on a good 30% for free against anyone who's being too hasty.
Sonic's upB gets him out of a lot of pressure for free. It can be annoying, but it also forces him above you with no way to ledge reset, letting you punish his landings. I'd say that this is the most important part of the MU to learn to do well with. Sonic has no aerials he can land well with. Sonic dair is not a get out of jail card so long as you position yourself in its trajectory, you can intercept with utilt/usmash pretty easily. Stay consistent on your landing punishes because once Sonic gets solid footing again then you're forced to play his game.
And HIS game is good.
I need more experience against Sonic to really say much more. Sonic is definitely the better character and a lot of times you have to just accept that a lot of what he does is very safe and you must remain patient and defensive. Despite being the "better character," I can hardly complain when going up against a character (as Fox) who lacks autocancel aerials and all of their jank resides in just one move to be wary about. The better you are at playing patiently and avoiding as much damage from spindash as possible, and punish his landings, the better off you will be.
MU feels very even. 50:50, can swing either way for me.
Ness
Ness is going to get a lot of mileage out of his nair in this MU. His grabs will get a chance to shine against Fox's inability to space well on shields, and getting thrown offstage as Fox is hell to try and return against Ness' upB and nairs. Good aerial mobility, an amazing double jump, and disjointed aerials get him out of disadvantage pretty easily.
With all that out of the way, Fox does a pretty good job at getting through the holes in Ness' hitboxes. Ness doesn't cover himself very well above and beneath him. fh nairs will also get a lot of mileage in this MU, so long as you're persistent enough to always land behind Ness. utilt does well here to cheese any overly aggressive Ness and any attempt they make at landing next to your shield, but a Ness that chooses to rather escape from a disadvantageous situation will be much harder to tack percent onto.
I'm still not totally sold on this idea of just laser baiting and playing chicken with Ness' magnet. You end up losing stage control and it makes it much more likely that when Ness lands a hit on you, you'll wind up offstage. Ness upB is HARD to recover against as Fox. I really wish that shinestalling was a thing in this game. Even when you do make it to the ledge, Ness' dsmash is godlike against getup options. Be very aware of it or you're dead at 80%.
A Ness with % lead can also play defensively on the ledge pretty freely. The worst that happens to him is he gets thrown offstage for chip damage and a free pass back to the ledge. The best that happens for him is that he grabs Fox out of his many punishable moves and bthrow kills him at 70%. Obviously playing laser chicken with him at this point is all you can really do, but you're very obviously playing his game and the only great way you win this situation is if the Ness becomes impatient.
It's rare that should happen though. Outside of getting nair'd you shouldn't be taking damage all that often in this MU. Damage you take is like, in chunks? You can spend a minute taking no damage and then that one time you get grabbed and thrown offstage, suddenly you've taken 50% from a throw and upBs and the percents are evened up again.
Ness gets a lot of cheese on Fox, but Fox does have more than the needed tools to maneuver Ness. I still don't buy into laser camping against Ness unless they're just braindead spamming pk fire and hoping you're going to run into then sure okay. Here's to another MU that feels very even (50:50, 55:45) to me.
Kirby
I have like no experience against Kirby, but he invalidates a lot of our ground game and that scares me. Kirby crouch/dtilt sets up so much. His jab is actually good. Umm, his aerial frame data is garbage at least. I wouldn't be surprised to see this MU in Kirby's favor, but I'm reserving any actual opinions for now.
a MU where your vertical spacing really shines. Your success depends on how well you can follow and punish his landings.
I've found that throwing out a lot of ff nairs from sh or fh works at least decently. It stuffs a lot of Sonic's approaches/pivot attempts. Do not become impatient in this MU as there will be a lot of times where you're forced to play Sonic's game. Obviously do not ever contest a grounded spindash, it tacks on a good 30% for free against anyone who's being too hasty.
Sonic's upB gets him out of a lot of pressure for free. It can be annoying, but it also forces him above you with no way to ledge reset, letting you punish his landings. I'd say that this is the most important part of the MU to learn to do well with. Sonic has no aerials he can land well with. Sonic dair is not a get out of jail card so long as you position yourself in its trajectory, you can intercept with utilt/usmash pretty easily. Stay consistent on your landing punishes because once Sonic gets solid footing again then you're forced to play his game.
And HIS game is good.
I need more experience against Sonic to really say much more. Sonic is definitely the better character and a lot of times you have to just accept that a lot of what he does is very safe and you must remain patient and defensive. Despite being the "better character," I can hardly complain when going up against a character (as Fox) who lacks autocancel aerials and all of their jank resides in just one move to be wary about. The better you are at playing patiently and avoiding as much damage from spindash as possible, and punish his landings, the better off you will be.
MU feels very even. 50:50, can swing either way for me.
lol what.
Ness
Ness is going to get a lot of mileage out of his nair in this MU. His grabs will get a chance to shine against Fox's inability to space well on shields, and getting thrown offstage as Fox is hell to try and return against Ness' upB and nairs. Good aerial mobility, an amazing double jump, and disjointed aerials get him out of disadvantage pretty easily.
With all that out of the way, Fox does a pretty good job at getting through the holes in Ness' hitboxes. Ness doesn't cover himself very well above and beneath him. fh nairs will also get a lot of mileage in this MU, so long as you're persistent enough to always land behind Ness. utilt does well here to cheese any overly aggressive Ness and any attempt they make at landing next to your shield, but a Ness that chooses to rather escape from a disadvantageous situation will be much harder to tack percent onto.
I'm still not totally sold on this idea of just laser baiting and playing chicken with Ness' magnet. You end up losing stage control and it makes it much more likely that when Ness lands a hit on you, you'll wind up offstage. Ness upB is HARD to recover against as Fox. I really wish that shinestalling was a thing in this game. Even when you do make it to the ledge, Ness' dsmash is godlike against getup options. Be very aware of it or you're dead at 80%.
A Ness with % lead can also play defensively on the ledge pretty freely. The worst that happens to him is he gets thrown offstage for chip damage and a free pass back to the ledge. The best that happens for him is that he grabs Fox out of his many punishable moves and bthrow kills him at 70%. Obviously playing laser chicken with him at this point is all you can really do, but you're very obviously playing his game and the only great way you win this situation is if the Ness becomes impatient.
It's rare that should happen though. Outside of getting nair'd you shouldn't be taking damage all that often in this MU. Damage you take is like, in chunks? You can spend a minute taking no damage and then that one time you get grabbed and thrown offstage, suddenly you've taken 50% from a throw and upBs and the percents are evened up again.
Ness gets a lot of cheese on Fox, but Fox does have more than the needed tools to maneuver Ness. I still don't buy into laser camping against Ness unless they're just braindead spamming pk fire and hoping you're going to run into then sure okay. Here's to another MU that feels very even (50:50, 55:45) to me.
Kirby
I have like no experience against Kirby, but he invalidates a lot of our ground game and that scares me. Kirby crouch/dtilt sets up so much. His jab is actually good. Umm, his aerial frame data is garbage at least. I wouldn't be surprised to see this MU in Kirby's favor, but I'm reserving any actual opinions for now.
M@v
Subarashii!
Paging my main practice partner aka sonic main @Phoenix_Dark for this one.
I got too busy to post about fox vs Mario last week; if anyone has questions from either side of the mu, let me know :3. I agree its even though. Hopefully I'll be able to post about sonic this week. I will say for now this is even at best; 45:55 sonic's favor most likely. The problem is the currently stagelist heavily favors sonic in this matchup. There's not really any stages except maybe BF and FD where Fox gets advantages sonic doesn't. And any stage that has small horizontal blast zones is going to instantly favor sonic in this matchup because of his backthrow.
I got too busy to post about fox vs Mario last week; if anyone has questions from either side of the mu, let me know :3. I agree its even though. Hopefully I'll be able to post about sonic this week. I will say for now this is even at best; 45:55 sonic's favor most likely. The problem is the currently stagelist heavily favors sonic in this matchup. There's not really any stages except maybe BF and FD where Fox gets advantages sonic doesn't. And any stage that has small horizontal blast zones is going to instantly favor sonic in this matchup because of his backthrow.
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DavemanCozy
Smash Photographer
Few things about
I was just playing this MU a bit on For Glory, with only one good Sonic. These are more so things I noticed:
I tried to find ways to contest Sonics Spindash. I found out you can actually use F-tilt on it while he's rolling along the ground: our F-tilt is pretty fast and will hit Sonic out of Spindash.
Sonic's sh Up-B escape leaves the spring behind bouncing, which you have to watch out for when you try to chase him. I noticed it eventually loses the hitbox (either that, or Fox is capable of running under it after the bounce from the ground and chase).
U-tilt seemed pretty effective in this matchup because of how fast it comes out and stuff a Sonic chasing you. Pivot F-tilts can also work very well if Sonic is running after you, it also beats out Sonic's Dash attack (before the last hit).
Homing Attack can be punished if it hits your shield by jumping and hitting Sonic with B-air, depending on the direction he bounces.
I agree with Timbers, this is a matchup where you have to let Sonic play his game and not overcommit with anything risky. SideB escapes should be used carefully. They are useful when you're cornered, though you need to be careful of getting predictable with it. One nice thing you can do is the drop offstage and then sideB immediately afterwards: if you do it right, you won't grab the ledge and go over it instead without the landing lag. Just keep in mind side-B's startup is still punishable, and Sonic is fast enough to run back and punish it if he predicts it.
I was just playing this MU a bit on For Glory, with only one good Sonic. These are more so things I noticed:
I tried to find ways to contest Sonics Spindash. I found out you can actually use F-tilt on it while he's rolling along the ground: our F-tilt is pretty fast and will hit Sonic out of Spindash.
Sonic's sh Up-B escape leaves the spring behind bouncing, which you have to watch out for when you try to chase him. I noticed it eventually loses the hitbox (either that, or Fox is capable of running under it after the bounce from the ground and chase).
U-tilt seemed pretty effective in this matchup because of how fast it comes out and stuff a Sonic chasing you. Pivot F-tilts can also work very well if Sonic is running after you, it also beats out Sonic's Dash attack (before the last hit).
Homing Attack can be punished if it hits your shield by jumping and hitting Sonic with B-air, depending on the direction he bounces.
I agree with Timbers, this is a matchup where you have to let Sonic play his game and not overcommit with anything risky. SideB escapes should be used carefully. They are useful when you're cornered, though you need to be careful of getting predictable with it. One nice thing you can do is the drop offstage and then sideB immediately afterwards: if you do it right, you won't grab the ledge and go over it instead without the landing lag. Just keep in mind side-B's startup is still punishable, and Sonic is fast enough to run back and punish it if he predicts it.
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Dee-SmashinBoss
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Feb 12, 2015
- Messages
- 926
Fox has a few laggy moves, and Kirby, when he is close, gets some good punishes.
We combo fox easier then he combos us(though we are prone to getting juggled because we are slower then he is)
Yea, Kirby is great at poking and spacing and edge guarding fox.
I hate how badly they nerfed the combo ability in his throws.........
If we still had the combo ability it would totally be in Kirbys favor unarguably, but since we don't, it's very close to even.
Our Utilt string works best on FF and fox is very prone to it.
Even after several Utilt, we can get in a few Uairs for extra damage.
Fox is good at hit and run/punishing some of our laggy attacks, so this MU is definatly about spacing and punishing.
I don't really know what any of Foxs customs do, can you explain them to me if you don't mind?
We combo fox easier then he combos us(though we are prone to getting juggled because we are slower then he is)
Yea, Kirby is great at poking and spacing and edge guarding fox.
I hate how badly they nerfed the combo ability in his throws.........
If we still had the combo ability it would totally be in Kirbys favor unarguably, but since we don't, it's very close to even.
Our Utilt string works best on FF and fox is very prone to it.
Even after several Utilt, we can get in a few Uairs for extra damage.
Fox is good at hit and run/punishing some of our laggy attacks, so this MU is definatly about spacing and punishing.
I don't really know what any of Foxs customs do, can you explain them to me if you don't mind?
I think Sonic vs. Fox is 55-45 Fox's favor. Sonic doesn't have many good options to escape out of juggles; Fox can constantly chase him down in the air and his spring doesn't do as long as you're prepared for it. Sonic and Fox's kill power is about the same, but because Fox is lighter he'll die earlier.
Ness vs. Fox feels like a 60-40 match up. I haven't played a really good Ness yet, so I'm not extremely confident in this ratio. Fox wins neutral with his superior movement speed and fast grounded options. It also seems like Fox has a much easier time juggling Ness. The reason this match up isn't any worse is Ness' incredible kill power, especially in rage.
Kirby vs. Fox is probably 55-45 Fox's favor. I'm basing all of my match up knowledge on one set I played with a Kirby last week. Outside of the utilt juggle Kirby has on Fox at low percent, he doesn't really seem to have very many good combos or follow ups. He has great kill power and gimp Fox really well with dair. Fox should be winning neutral most of the time and has the ability to follow up off of his attacks better than Kirby overall. Kirby can also die extremely early if you catch him with a uair string at the right percent.
Ness vs. Fox feels like a 60-40 match up. I haven't played a really good Ness yet, so I'm not extremely confident in this ratio. Fox wins neutral with his superior movement speed and fast grounded options. It also seems like Fox has a much easier time juggling Ness. The reason this match up isn't any worse is Ness' incredible kill power, especially in rage.
Kirby vs. Fox is probably 55-45 Fox's favor. I'm basing all of my match up knowledge on one set I played with a Kirby last week. Outside of the utilt juggle Kirby has on Fox at low percent, he doesn't really seem to have very many good combos or follow ups. He has great kill power and gimp Fox really well with dair. Fox should be winning neutral most of the time and has the ability to follow up off of his attacks better than Kirby overall. Kirby can also die extremely early if you catch him with a uair string at the right percent.
M@v
Subarashii!
You're overlooking an important part. Whenever fox is at high percents (even if sonic is too), Sonic is at a HUGE advantage because he can kill you with a throw which is extremely hard to avoid because of sonic's speed and mobility. You're limited by having to be aware of the grab, and he doesn't have to worry about dying from a throw to you. A smart sonic will camp near the edges of the stage in these percent ranges, especially with rage. And the not approaching him option only works if you have the lead, as your blaster is way too laggy to use against sonic. He can run across most stages and punish you for shooting even 1 laser. If you shoot 2 or more you are certainly getting punished.
Also, Spring and Dair are actually decent for getting back down to the ground fast. Spring is moreso for avoiding one upair, as it doesn't save him from later juggles. Dair is just super fast and its landing lag can be cancelled if spaced right.
You can't Double Jab Cancel Sonic reliably either, as he can spring out at any time. The only kind of punish you can pull off is either a fast upair if you read the spring option and react fast to it, or attempting to punish him as he's landing.
I think fox's only "Good" stage in this mu is BF, and mayyyybeee FD. Any stage with small horizontal blast zones is instantly in sonic's favor. Stages like halberd and delfino have things going for fox (insanely early kills off the top), but even more for sonic (insanely early kills off the top AND the chance to force kills early off the sides, which forces you to respect it).
Lastly, I don't know what Fox is supposed to if he gets ledge trumped, especially in this matchup. Its a free dsmash for sonic that will likely kill you.
The more i play this matchup the more I think its even only if Fox plays it perfectly
. Otherwise Sonic controls the tempo, and you're almost always going to have to play a stage he gets more out of than Fox does.
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Dee-SmashinBoss
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Feb 12, 2015
- Messages
- 926
I don't see how Fox follows up well in his attacks better then Kirby.
And the Uair string I have no idea, because I barely ever get hit by Uair because it can't really be comboed into.
Mainly what Kirby lost that really decided this MU! was the combos in his throws.
I know you said this was based off of one game, but not all of this is necessarily true, for all we know that player could have been bad or something.
This MU is definatly about spacing and punishing, which both characters fare decently well at.
Kirby Generally pokes better, with his fast and very good tilts, he doesn't have to worry about blaster.
I need to see what moves Kirby can and can't crouch under.
DavemanCozy
Smash Photographer
About Sonic, yah, he is an a*hole that speedy dastard. One of the matchups we need to play patiently and not overcommit.
Despite Sonic being faster than us in terms of running speed, his neutral game is a tad slower than Fox's, which is nice when playing footsies with him. He has got us beat in range. He has many ways of mixing up approaches with his movement, spin ball cancels and spin shot jumps as well, all that is unreal good. Gotta be patient here and really look at what Sonic is doing.
When it comes to Sonic chasing us and trying his pivot grab shenanigans to B-throw us, I think using F-tilts and U-tilts to stop him is the way to go. Pivot F-tilts also, the slide from it goes far enough to keep us just outside a running Sonic and intercept him. F-tilt is fairly fast as well.
Does anyone else here know if there are other moves that can stop Spin Dash besides F-tilt?
Seems close to50:50 to me. I wouldn't be surprised to see a slight advantage in either side though.
--
Regarding what was said about Kirby,
@
Dee-SmashinBoss
I've covered Fox's customs already. Laser3 is the go to, since it's a larger projectile that will cover Kirby's crouch. Side-3 (Wolf Flash) or Side-1 (Illusion) I feel is pure preference. Up-2 (Flying Fox) seems like the better choice to me, since it eliminates the start-up. Up-3 (Twisting "Barrel Roll" Fox) is just as good for KOs as U-smash though. Down-2 is probably the best option: I don't think the shine choice really makes a difference in this matchup, Kirby ain't getting gimped by a windbox.
Kirby's crouch is really annoying for Fox. Gotta be good at angling F-tilt down and spacing away from Kirby.
Both are good at poking each other. Fox's tilts are pretty fast as well.
I would say Fox definitely follows Kirby better though, simply because his mobility is better: fastest vertical air speed, 4th fastest dash, Fox also takes 4 frames to leave the ground as well (the jump squat animation is very short) and his jump height is really good. As a result, I would say that Fox chases Kirby better.
That's not to say that Kirby is helpless against Fox. Kirby does multiple jumps which let him seek safety in the air. Kirby is also just as capable of air-dodging or punishing a greedy Fox with one of his aerials.
U-air strings are certainly very good in this matchup. A perfectly timed short-hop U-air will auto-cancel and let Fox follow up with another U-air. Full-hop U-air also autocancels if you do the jump from the ground and land on a platform (works on Battlefield two platforms and the Smashville platform), and even auto-cancels when you do the jump from the ground and fast-fall back down to the ground. This lets Fox follow up with another U-air very quickly as well. On stages like Battlefield, this can end Kirby's stock very quickly, as Fox can use the higher platform to get him from the top.
Despite Sonic being faster than us in terms of running speed, his neutral game is a tad slower than Fox's, which is nice when playing footsies with him. He has got us beat in range. He has many ways of mixing up approaches with his movement, spin ball cancels and spin shot jumps as well, all that is unreal good. Gotta be patient here and really look at what Sonic is doing.
When it comes to Sonic chasing us and trying his pivot grab shenanigans to B-throw us, I think using F-tilts and U-tilts to stop him is the way to go. Pivot F-tilts also, the slide from it goes far enough to keep us just outside a running Sonic and intercept him. F-tilt is fairly fast as well.
Does anyone else here know if there are other moves that can stop Spin Dash besides F-tilt?
Seems close to
50:50 to me. I wouldn't be surprised to see a slight advantage in either side though.--
Regarding what was said about Kirby,
@
Dee-SmashinBoss
I've covered Fox's customs already. Laser3 is the go to, since it's a larger projectile that will cover Kirby's crouch. Side-3 (Wolf Flash) or Side-1 (Illusion) I feel is pure preference. Up-2 (Flying Fox) seems like the better choice to me, since it eliminates the start-up. Up-3 (Twisting "Barrel Roll" Fox) is just as good for KOs as U-smash though. Down-2 is probably the best option: I don't think the shine choice really makes a difference in this matchup, Kirby ain't getting gimped by a windbox.Kirby's crouch is really annoying for Fox. Gotta be good at angling F-tilt down and spacing away from Kirby.
Both are good at poking each other. Fox's tilts are pretty fast as well.
I would say Fox definitely follows Kirby better though, simply because his mobility is better: fastest vertical air speed, 4th fastest dash, Fox also takes 4 frames to leave the ground as well (the jump squat animation is very short) and his jump height is really good. As a result, I would say that Fox chases Kirby better.
That's not to say that Kirby is helpless against Fox. Kirby does multiple jumps which let him seek safety in the air. Kirby is also just as capable of air-dodging or punishing a greedy Fox with one of his aerials.
U-air strings are certainly very good in this matchup. A perfectly timed short-hop U-air will auto-cancel and let Fox follow up with another U-air. Full-hop U-air also autocancels if you do the jump from the ground and land on a platform (works on Battlefield two platforms and the Smashville platform), and even auto-cancels when you do the jump from the ground and fast-fall back down to the ground. This lets Fox follow up with another U-air very quickly as well. On stages like Battlefield, this can end Kirby's stock very quickly, as Fox can use the higher platform to get him from the top.
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