Advanced Tactics: Doubles Ledge Play

[Fortress]

Hey, all. PM/Melee player here. If there's one thing I love about Smash as a whole, it's finding new tactics, new ideas, and new things to work on and implement into high-level play. And there's one thing I really wanted to discuss with you all today. And that is the ledge stealing mechanic. Now, I'm not here to say 'it's bad', 'it would be better with X change'. No, I'm here to talk about it as-is, and how it can be potentially utilized in Doubles play. So, let's talk theory.

Firstly, if you're coming from a faster-paced game, the pace of Smash 4 might not seem quite ideal. Follow-ups off of grabs are hard, ledgehogging isn't really a thing on the surface, and combos just seem difficult at first glance. Examine the game a little deeper though. Higher hitstun on moves, with higher knockback in general, and slower launching speeds on heavy hits. This makes for a pace that's reasonable for teammates to intercept the player you were attacking, allowing for that volleyball dynamic that you get in the infamous Wombo Combo video. In my eyes anyway, Smash 4's pace is conducive to a four-player environment, and I think it's generally agreed upon that the game itself is geared towards crowds moreso than Singles play. Which is fair enough, we're not here to decry that, we're here to talk about what role that plays at top-level Smash 4 play. Specifically, I wanted to rap Doubles play; something that's traditionally been a gray area for players of the series, being much crazier and haphazard than what the average PM/Melee player finds ideal. If the speed of Smash 4 is friendlier towards 4-player gameplay, then why not discus the potential merits of team battle?

So, onto the real topic here. Take a look at this.

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Now, the first thing you'll hear a lot of PM/Melee players say is "ledgeguarding is dead, recoveries are too free and easy now, 1/10, would not play again". But this is where the real fun comes in, the theory, finding out how this seemingly-poor mechanic could be a blessing in disguise.

When you steal the ledge from an opponent, it seems that both of you are unable to act for a short amount of time. Obviously this slows down the pace of the game, but it opens up options for both you and your teammate, as well as your opponents. Take these two scenarios into account:

1) You're ledgeguarding. Your teammate is nearby. An opponent has just grabbed the ledge. You yourself decide to grab it, and your teammate capitalizes on your opponent being 'frozen' in midair for a free meteor/spike, or wall-of-pain kill. It's a tactic for sure. And it presents its own risks. You yourself are 'stuck' at the ledge, which the opponent can certainly take advantage of, by forcing you into the same situation that you just forced the other guy into.

2) You're recovering. The opponent is on-stage. He has three options here. Stay on-stage, and assume you'll avoid the ledge and the 'freeze' that comes with being ledge-snagged. Read your ledgegrab attempt, and take it just after you do, forcing you to be 'stuck' and out in the open for his teammate's attack. Or come off-stage and try and take you out air-to-air. Your opponent has three options to ledgeguard you here. A low-risk low-reward in staying on-stage, a mid-risk mid-reward in stealing the ledge and having your teammate jump in, and a high-risk high-reward in putting yourself out there over the edge.

Now, again, I'm wanting to approach this as a competitive scene player and talk about the merit of this mechanic, even if it slows the pace I'm used to. I don't want to decry this new mechanic just because it's not what I'm used to. Let's do what we do here on the boards, and talk theory.

Thoughts?

@TTTTTsd @ Saito @ XalchemistX @arcticfox8 @ trash? @Comeback Kid @EmptySky00 @Praxis

As fellow competitive players who will agree and disagree with me, I feel you all would be a good addition to the conversation. Have anything to pitch in? I felt you all would enjoy talking actual Smash talk, not just "my game could kick your game's ass" kind of conversations.

I'm sure you for one, Sky, would enjoy possible Link jank involving ledge stealing with teammates and tether.

 

[Fortress]

I'll kick off the discussion with a possible tactic of my own: Zelda and Kirby team. Zelda uses Farore's to steal the ledge, forcing the opponent off, and Kirby immediately follows with a B-Air string. Something simple that allows you to take advantage of an opponent's poor positioning and capitalize, a hallmark of the Smash series. I think that the pace of Smash 4 opens up a ton of interesting teams scenarios, and I hope that we can get some non-flaming, productive discussion going.

 

[JaidynReiman]

How does this make it less competitive? It reduces cheapness. I only see this as a GOOD thing. Honestly.

 

[trash?]

if this creates as strange of an off-stage game as I assume it to be, I'm down for maining SSB4 solely for doubles play.

though I still don't have all the info I'd want solely from that .gif. how quickly could someone act out of the ledge, assuming they stole it from someone else?

 

[Fortress]

How does this make it less competitive? It reduces cheapness. I only see this as a GOOD thing. Honestly.

No, no, no, I didn't say it made it less competitive. As a matter-of-fact, I'm saying it opens up a ton of competitive strategies that I think should be discussed. There are too many players out there who see a mechanic like this and say it isn't competitive. I'm wanting to step up and say that there's more to it than meets the eye. I think you might have misunderstood me.

 

[Fortress]

if this creates as strange of an off-stage game as I assume it to be, I'm down for maining SSB4 solely for doubles play.

though I still don't have all the info I'd want solely from that .gif. how quickly could someone act out of the ledge, assuming they stole it from someone else?

I'm not particularly sure myself how long that stun lasts, or what (if anything) it's dependent on. @ XalchemistX You've been playing the game all day, any info you can drop on us here?

Also, Canon, imagine THIS: KirbyxKirby team. One Kirby forces an opponent off of the ledge. Other Kirby goes for the Swallow to spit the opponent out under the stage for freeeeeeee. Kirby too good.

@Hydrone I completely forgot you changed your name. Have any specific team setups that might be solid? KirbyxKirby seems really good, and I imagine that ZSS could be awesome after your teammate steals the ledge from the opponent, since she can Forward-B WoP them off the stage.

 

[Saito]

Also, Canon, imagine THIS: KirbyxKirby team. One Kirby forces an opponent off of the ledge. Other Kirby goes for the Swallow to spit the opponent out under the stage for freeeeeeee. Kirby too good.

Not happening.

When the metagame develops for this style of play, everyone is going to know the advantages and disadvantages of having the ledge taken from you and it won't happen nearly as easily.

I'm expecting a different type of thing.

Player A is holding the ledge
Player B goes for the ledge to take it from player A and have player D swoop in for the kill.
Player A lets go of the ledge and jumps
Player B snaps the ledge
Player A fast falls onto the ledge forcing player B off.

Player C swoops in for the kill.

 

[Fortress]

Not happening.

When the metagame develops for this style of play, everyone is going to know the advantages and disadvantages of having the ledge taken from you and it won't happen nearly as easily.

I'm expecting a different type of thing.

Player A is holding the ledge
Player B goes for the ledge to take it from player A and have player D swoop in for the kill.
Player A lets go of the ledge and jumps
Player B snaps the ledge
Player A fast falls onto the ledge forcing player B off.

Player C swoops in for the kill.

HAAAAAAAAAAAAAA. The mixups are real, alright. I'm still excited to see this concept develop though. @ nessokman I think it'd be helpful having a Brawl (and soon Smash 4 I'm assuming) player's opinion on this mechanic.

@ Saito As a Marth player, what do you think this means for the Ken Combo? Any setups available off of this jank?

 

[Gameboi834]

What if you were to use a Rosalina/Luma combo to edge guard and fight in the middle at the same time while your partner chooses to go for whichever needs more attention?

 

[Fortress]

What if you were to use a Rosalina/Luma combo to edge guard and fight in the middle at the same time while your partner chooses to go for whichever needs more attention?

Rosalina could have some strong zoning options for sure, but I'm not sure just how far her punishes and setups can reach. I can see her being able to easily assist with ledge-steal punishes from the safety of the stage more easily than the other cast members, though. That could be interesting.

@ Saito Link's got that meteor in his d-Air for now, right? Would ledgesteal > teammate Link D-air meteor be a viable setup?

 

[Saito]

@ Saito As a Marth player, what do you think this means for the Ken Combo? Any setups available off of this jank?

LET ME TELL YOU THAT KEN COMBOS MIGHT BE A PROBLEM.

When I was watching ken play on the footage recently I could of sworn he hit with a solid RAR Dair and Wii fit trainer did not go down.

The spike sweetspot might be a lot harder than normal. I also think it's going to be really hard to land the ken combo on it. It looks possible since I saw ken get 3 solid Fairs in a row.

 

[Fortress]

LET ME TELL YOU THAT KEN COMBOS MIGHT BE A PROBLEM.

When I was watching ken play on the footage recently I could of sworn he hit with a solid RAR Dair and Wii fit trainer did not go down.

The spike sweetspot might be a lot harder than normal. I also think it's going to be really hard to land the ken combo on it. It looks possible since I saw ken get 3 solid Fairs in a row.

Pretty sure it's still an option, just harder like you said. With higher hitstun and knockback on throws and whatnot, do you think characters like Little Mac could set characters up for the Ken for Marth?

 

[Saito]

@ Saito Link's got that meteor in his d-Air for now, right? Would ledgesteal > teammate Link D-air meteor be a viable setup?

Sound's dangerous if it's badly spaced.

It really depends on how long the inactive period is for the ledge stun.

Also I didn't even know it was a meteor.

Meteor cancelling is confirmed to be back, so that also could get them killed as well.

Pretty sure it's still an option, just harder like you said. With higher hitstun and knockback on throws and whatnot, do you think characters like Little Mac could set characters up for the Ken for Marth?

I think plenty of people can set up.

If it's interesting to note, I think the speed characters are sent flying is much slower than previous iterations. It's also easier to keep track of as well. Combo set up potential is greater in that case.

However, because momentum doesn't follow from the last attack (Or whatever that phenomenon is in Melee / PM ) you would have to have perfect spacing and timing in order to knock the enemy downwards with the spike.

 

[Fortress]

If it's interesting to note, I think the speed characters are sent flying is much slower than previous iterations. It's also easier to keep track of as well. Combo set up potential is greater in that case.

Yeah, I mentioned that in the OP, and pretty much everywhere else I've posted about Smash 4 Doubles lol. I think it's what brings Doubles all together, to be honest. Slower launch speeds and a slower pace make for smarter team play and better reactions off of your teammate. Not so haphazard. Totally agree with you on that. It's like the game was built for multiple players slugging it out in midair off launches, so it only makes sense that Doubles would be so neat.

However, because momentum doesn't follow from the last attack (Or whatever that phenomenon is in Melee / PM ) you would have to have perfect spacing and timing in order to knock the enemy downwards with the spike.

Hm, yeah, I can see how that would be something that could come up. Certainly doesn't ruin any of this though.

 

[Saito]

Hm, yeah, I can see how that would be something that could come up. Certainly doesn't ruin any of this though.

We are bound to miss out on some hype combo's because of it.

Honestly if they had the momentum transfer from attacks (WHATEVER ITS CALLED) along with the body knockback, I think it would be great.

Two people getting knocked into each other and then bouncing off of each other from the damage allowing for more set ups would of been cool. Even in a free for all match.

 

[Fortress]

We are bound to miss out on some hype combo's because of it.

Honestly if they had the momentum transfer from attacks (WHATEVER ITS CALLED) along with the body knockback, I think it would be great.

Two people getting knocked into each other and then bouncing off of each other from the damage allowing for more set ups would of been cool. Even in a free for all match.

So, the momentum transfer is 100% definitely confirmed to not be a thing? I wasn't looking out for it during the E3 tournament, so I never noticed. I still think there's plenty of potential for some high-level edge play and combos.

 

[JaidynReiman]

No, no, no, I didn't say it made it less competitive. As a matter-of-fact, I'm saying it opens up a ton of competitive strategies that I think should be discussed. There are too many players out there who see a mechanic like this and say it isn't competitive. I'm wanting to step up and say that there's more to it than meets the eye. I think you might have misunderstood me.

Oh no, I didn't say YOU said it'd be less competitive. I just don't understand why competitive players would think that. I was agreeing with you lol.

 

[Saito]

So, the momentum transfer is 100% definitely confirmed to not be a thing? I wasn't looking out for it during the E3 tournament, so I never noticed. I still think there's plenty of potential for some high-level edge play and combos.

I would have to rewatch it.

I vaguely remember someone getting hit during the flying animation and their momentum didn't change.

I couldn't say it with 100% assurability because it was last night that this happened, along with the fact that this may all be changed since that was the demo.

 

[Fortress]

I would have to rewatch it.

I vaguely remember someone getting hit during the flying animation and their momentum didn't change.

I couldn't say it with 100% assurability because it was last night that this happened, along with the fact that this may all be changed since that was the demo.

This could also totally be based on factors of the move that connects with a flying opponent, like knockback and damage.

I can see something janky like this happening: Mario ledgeguarding, opponent coming in attempting to recover high and avoid the ledge. Mario throws a Fireball, opponent is knocked back, and forced to/accidentally grabs the ledge. Mario swoops in for the steal, forces opponent off, Weegee dives off for the chop on the helpless opponent. Maaaan.

 

[Saito]

This could also totally be based on factors of the move that connects with a flying opponent, like knockback and damage.

I can see something janky like this happening: Mario ledgeguarding, opponent coming in attempting to recover high and avoid the ledge. Mario throws a Fireball, opponent is knocked back, and forced to/accidentally grabs the ledge. Mario sweeps in for the steal for Weegee to dive off for the chop. Maaaan.

Judging from the speed of the game from what I saw, the opponent would have to be caught SUPERBLY off guard for that to work.

Mario would have to fireball, land, go through endlag, then do a reverse jump, into a fast fall to grab the ledge.

In that jumping time, our opponent could of dropped the edge, rolled up, jumped up, or normally got up.
Hell, if he predicted he would go for the edge after getting fireballed, depending on his character, he could punish.

Assuming fox, he could drop the edge and then jump Dair back onto the stage.

 

[Fortress]

Judging from the speed of the game from what I saw, the opponent would have to be caught SUPERBLY off guard for that to work.

Mario would have to fireball, land, go through endlag, then do a reverse jump, into a fast fall to grab the ledge.

In that jumping time, our opponent could of dropped the edge, rolled up, jumped up, or normally got up.
Hell, if he predicted he would go for the edge after getting fireballed, depending on his character, he could punish.

Assuming fox, he could drop the edge and then jump Dair back onto the stage.

Hey, who knows, anything's possible. Just the fact that being on the ledge can now be a bad thing changes the whole dynamic of the game.

 

[Saito]

Hey, who knows, anything's possible. Just the fact that being on the ledge can now be a bad thing changes the whole dynamic of the game.

Honestly, I think mario in singles is going to be problematic now, same with kirby.

Grab ledge, then proper guarding with a cape can kill regardless of snap ledges being back.

Same with kirbycides.

I can see fox being a good counter to that though because he doesn't go into special fall after side B.

He could potentially after getting knocked off the ledge, jump backwards, Forward B under the stage then up b to snap onto the ledge and even take it if someone is holding it.

Edgeguarding is going to have to get a lot fiercer if people want early % kills.

Also, I CAN'T DO ANYTHING IF YOU KEEP REPLYING TO ME.

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

SOMEONE ELSE GET IN HERE.

 

[nessokman]

Ugh, leave it to me to be dragged into a technical analysis thread....

I like the concept, it will have advantages and disadvantages, but it looks like some pretty amazing things will be possible.

I would think a PitXkirby combo would be good, both can fly to get back on stage, not necessarily needing to grab the ledge. Let pit steal it, and Kirby meteor smash them (his dair is a weak meteor smash)

Pit can recover if the ledge is taken from him, but Kirby has more jumps, so it is smarter to have him on any team to go off stage and finish the job.

Might be able to do something like jiggly puff's side air in melee and knock them too far away to recover as well. Kirby's mallet would be useful for that.

 

[XalchemistX]

I only tried 1 match of 2 on 2 although there wasn't a team mode in the demo
When I played Samus I noticed she has the possibility of having a good ledge game. She can quickly get on the edge with her grapple from above the stage, making the opportunity for my partner (greninja) to grab the stage as well which kicks me off and positions myself to spike the Mario trying to up b to the ledge. Worked well once. Not sure if it's actually tactical though.
I might try out more 2 vs 2 tomorrow

 

[Fortress]

Good input. Just think you two, you'll probably be some of the first theorycrafters for Smash 4 Doubles lol.

 

[nessokman]

Good input. Just think you two, you'll probably be some of the first theorycrafters for Smash 4 Doubles lol.

I'm a strategist, but when matches start all hell breaks loose and my plans go out the window.(Happens in fire emblem games a lot)

I've got several strategies brewing with this system. I'll post them later

 

[Oddyesy]

LET ME TELL YOU THAT KEN COMBOS MIGHT BE A PROBLEM.

When I was watching ken play on the footage recently I could of sworn he hit with a solid RAR Dair and Wii fit trainer did not go down.

The spike sweetspot might be a lot harder than normal. I also think it's going to be really hard to land the ken combo on it. It looks possible since I saw ken get 3 solid Fairs in a row.

Yes, I saw that. On the 1v1 match where Ken was playing Lilo on Coliseum Town and City. That dair was perfectly tippered, yet there was no meteor/spike.

I'm not sure how tethers work at all in the Smash series, since I never really played a tether recovery character. Can they be on the ledge at the same time as a regular ledge grab? That happens in PM all the time. Can you guys fill me in? I know that there are new ledge mechanics, such as being able to knock characters off the ledge. What is this based on, does anyone know? I see that ledge invincibility is pretty short though.

I think a good team composition might be a good aerial character (spikes are pretty nice) such as Kirby or Pit with a ground based one, such as Little Mac. They could easily knock them off stage and the aerially dominant character could be making sure they don't get back, while the ground based one keeps the other opponent away.

It looks like the aerial game might have to be focused on since there are new ledgegrabbing mechanics.

This is like... my first time ever theorycrafting, so I probably just plopped down a buncha crap in front of you guys. I'll get better if you guys could give me some tips.

EDIT: I found the match where they were playing and Ken got the tipper. Start watching from 6:39:45.

 

[Fortress]

Somebody in the PM Social thread got kicked off the ledge, and a Samus came in and meteor'd them. Sounds pretty solid.

 

[ElectricCitrus]

Doubles ledge play could be a pretty big thing in competitive smash 4, especially since its fairly high risk but high rewarding since it seems like a lot can go wrong based on ledge priority and the fact you and your team mate will need to be really in-sync to avoid failure. Now admittedly my competitive knowledge is limited since I'm about two months into starting competitive smash, so feel free to enlighten me on anything I have or will get wrong.

 

[Fortress]

Doubles ledge play could be a pretty big thing in competitive smash 4, especially since its fairly high risk but high rewarding since it seems like a lot can go wrong based on ledge priority and the fact you and your team mate will need to be really in-sync to avoid failure. Now admittedly my competitive knowledge is limited since I'm about two months into starting competitive smash, so feel free to enlighten me on anything I have or will get wrong.

You pretty much have the gist of it. Ledge play and off-stage play has traditionally been high-risk high-reward, with success depending on a variety of factors such as stage pick and character pick determining what you can and cannot do. Staying on-stage has traditionally been the opposite; low-risk, low-reward.

 

[ElectricCitrus]

I knew that much, I was referencing more with the way Smash 4 is apparently doing its ledge priority which apparently is based off both %, time, and distance meaning there's three new elements to consider. Especially if you're a character who is easily spiked because you would want to get to the ledge from a distance/at a high % to garuntee you can bump the guy off but that opens the opponent's team mate to spike you into oblivion meaning your partner better also be off stage/having your back.

 

[Fortress]

So, Doubles play in general in relation to Fox and his Shine. He's got some high endlag after it, but I think the trajectory is similar. Would it be possible for a Fox/Fox team to do the classic 'waveshine' movement without wavedashing, by alternating who shines the opponent, ultimately ending in a shine spike? It'd be like... leap frog, and would require a high degree of skill and coordination between teammates to pull off, but wouldn't that make it a pretty advanced trick? Smash4 is full of these little things that get me so hyped.

Imagine being run down on FD by two Foxes shining you, one after the other, ending with getting shine spiked into a KO. That'd be terrifying if I was on the receiving end, and I would freak out as a spectator.

 

[PMS | Tink-er]

How bad is the lag on taking the ledge from someone? Particularly, would it it be a viable option to, upon taking the ledge from someone, release and attempt to dropzone for a stage spike whilst they're stunned from being booted off?

 

[ElectricCitrus]

Another fox/fox technique could be to have one fox use side+b to knock the opponent off the stage while the other fox is waiting to shine spike them to their death, and since fox can now jump and us his up+b recovery it'd be fairly easy to keep both foxes alive.

 

[GunBlaze]

Another fox/fox technique could be to have one fox use side+b to knock the opponent off the stage while the other fox is waiting to shine spike them to their death, and since fox can now jump and us his up+b recovery it'd be fairly easy to keep both foxes alive.

WAIT, HE CAN?!

 

[nessokman]

WAIT, HE CAN?!

Fox is god, melee proved it

 

[ElectricCitrus]

WAIT, HE CAN?!

Yes it's been confirmed that Fox's side-b no longer causes stun meaning after using it you aren't helpless and can jump/recover out of it. Presumably this means you can also use other moves immediately after this like an aerial?

 

[PMS | Tink-er]

Can you jump out of it if you use it mid-air? Or recover out of it if you use both your jumps before using it?

 

[Neo Zero]

I know this is about Doubles, but has anyone seen how ledge stealing works when someone JUST reaches the ledge and still has invincibility works? The demo just showed the mechanic, and how they had no invincibility of the sort. Perhaps it's still possible, only now the timing has to be perfect, and if you mess up, you have to return to the ground to get your ledge invincibility back.

 

[ElectricCitrus]

Can you jump out of it if you use it mid-air? Or recover out of it if you use both your jumps before using it?

I would imagine so, because to be able to jump out of the dash would imply you get zero-stun so you can do any move you want out of it. So like you could probably use both jumps to get some height, do your dash for some horizontal and then use the recover to get anymore angles/height you might need.

Also you can jump after using Megaman's recovery, which is pretty solid.