A thinker's approach to Luigification

[Guybrush20X6]

I hear a lot of people talking about things like giving Luigi the Poltergust or giving Ganondorf a sword but are they taking into consideration how it affects the character's style?

Here's a list of what a character's playstyle is in comparison the one they're cloned from (this includes semi-clones)

[COLLAPSE=Playstyles]

Mario/Luigi/Dr. Mario

Mario is meant to be balanced with a range of options (Reflector, Projectile, Pushback, Recovery). Luigi is meant to be a very slippery character that uses his multiple mobility options to outwit opponents. Dr Mario trades some recovery ability for greater attack power.

Fox/Falco/Wolf

Fox is designed to rack up the damage and then retreat until building up to a killer, Falco has a bigger focus on aerial combat and zoning while Wolf is a more in your face attacker with a high risk and high reward.

Ness/Lucas

Just about every move Lucas has, Ness's equivalent does the opposite. Lucas has damage building arieal and KOing smashes while Ness has Damage building yo-yo smashes and KOing aerials.

Link/ToonLink

Link is a heavy character with multiple projectiles and a special shield gimmick that blocks when he stands still. Toon Link has not only a floaty body but floater projectiles, used to cover his approach. His Dair also adds another mobility option.

Captain Falcon/Ganondorf

Captain Falcon is about combos (in a non-combo game) before using a powerful but hard to land finisher. Ganon has slow and Sluggish movement but his actual attacks are surprisingly nippy.

Marth/Roy

This one is spelled out on their melee trophies. Marth has a sweetspot on his blade tip, making him a great poker and punisher. Roy has one at the hilt making him more offensive.

Pikachu/Pichu

... I don't know what they were thinking, if at all...
[/COLLAPSE]

Now, how to make them different in a way that fits their style and maybe be closer to the games.

[COLLAPSE=Suggested Changes]
Mario/Luigi/Dr. Mario: I don't believe in redoing Luigi's moveset to focus on the Poltergust but gahnging his b-down to be both him spinning and using the vacuum helps Luigi's slippery style. If the Doctor returns I think he should play up the medical angle more like using a defibrillator for his side smash.

Link/Toon Link: From what we've seen so far they share most attacks but their b-side move hasn't been shown yet.

Ness/Lucas: their normal attacks are diverse enough but Lucas's specials are just safer versions of Ness's. His PSI magnet covers more ground with no draw-back and his recovery is much easier. I think Lucas needs a special attack shake-up but I'm not sure how

Fox/Falco/Wolf:

Captain Falcon/Ganondorf:

Marth/Roy:
[/COLLAPSE]

 

[Starcutter]

all lucas really needs is a different up and down specials. PK counter and maybe PK ground could work as a final smash. ness is fine.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

I meant more in terms of how the character is meant to be played and what their strengths are. Lucas for instance has less damage but more utility. In particular which moves are meant to rack damage and which ones KO are swapped between him and Ness.

 

[SirGalvan]

To me Lucas has never been under the clone category.... Yes I know they share moves however they played differently... Even the moves that they share act differently and too me Lucas is more fun to play as


The problem with clones is when they don't change a lot of the gameplay... For example toon link is the prime example of a clone... Every move is essentially the same the only difference was toon link was more floaty


To fix this they should use Lucas as a focus point if they are going to use similar movesets...looking the same but acting completely different

Although I rather everyone get a completely unique move set (looking at you ganondorf) however I think they are going to do more move sets on how they did Lucas

 

[Maffewt]

Ganondorf's slow, a sluggish powerhouse, with surprisingly quick attacks. I think if the sword is incorporated it'd be mostly aesthetic; I can easily imagine moves like his down smash (I think?) being replaced with him using a sword, but mechanically being the same - albeit with slightly more rang, maybe.

Wolf is high risk, high reward so I think his deflector should be active for slightly less time. Also, his FS should be calling in Star Wolf. I seen someone pitch it as "Wolf Pack"? which is a good name. The shoot and bomb the stage and ****. But Wolf isn't in his Wolfen, he's there on the stage trying to dodge the bombs and lasers and ****. They'll be much less likely to hit him than opponents, but I think an element of risk sets him apart and fits his style.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Got most of them, what are Fox and Falco's playstyles supposed to be?

And should I cover Marth and Roy.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Updated the OP. How do we make them different but still play true tho their style?

 

[MagnesD3]

They just need to get creative with Roy and look more into his original game. Lucas just needs his b up and b over moves changed. Falco needs new specials and normals (I'd say his specials could consist of a double laser gun attack and the rocket launcher he holds in assault. Wolfs b down should be differentiated more. Ganon should use dark magic attack with his smash attacks using his sword (keep b over though). Luigi needs his vacuum to be his b down. Toon link requires new normals and use of different loz tools for his specials. That's it for clones I think, there are normal characters that require tweaking as well.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Has anyone played Sword of Seals/Blinding Blade? What does Roy have to bring?

As for Luigi, I think his down B should be him doing the Luigi Cyclone while having the Poltergust out and it both pulls him towards his opponent and visa versa. And his Uair should be him inflating a balloon with the PG until it bursts.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Ness and Lucas are perfect. I'd only change their specials.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Ness and Lucas are perfect. I'd only change their specials.

What changes would you suggest?

 

[Diddy Kong]

PK Flash becomes as fast as PK Freeze, and works as a stronger Disable, with a chance of getting a OHKO. Side B is PK Paralysis, works like ZSS's beams. Up B becomes PK Teleport. Down B stays the same. Lucas can stay the same I feel.

 

[BlitznBurst]

Luigi's moveset is a Mario clone because that's what his character is - he's very close to Mario on the outside, but when you actually look closer they're vastly different characters. It works - Ganondorf, on the other hand, has NO REASON WHATSOEVER to be a Captain Falcon clone. At least the Star Fox characters or the Earthbound characters had some justification in that they were from the same series, but the only reason Ganondorf was a Falcon clone is that the team were too ****ing lazy to give him a unique moveset. There were so many things Ganondorf could have been, and even when they had the chance to make him unique they still went with making him a clone. The fact that he's a terrible fighter as well only makes it all the worse. I have no problem with the other fighters, but if Ganondorf is in again (Which he obviosuly will be) he needs a complete overhaul.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

For Ganondorf, how about this, he keeps the Twilight princess sword in one hand, sheathed like so

His weak attack have him hitting the opponent with the sheathed blade and removing it for his smashes.

 

[EddyBearr]

Fixing Luigi:
Replace the Green/Luigi fireball with "blowing stuff out" with the poltergeist vacuum. It releases tiny ghosts (rats/bats/etc) that do damage similar to the ice climbers down-special. It pushes luigi away a tiny bit if he's in the air. Can blow out elemental ghosts if luigi "sucks in" an element with his vacuum.
Replace the Green/Luigi missile with "Sucking stuff in" with the Poltergeist vacuum. If close enough to an opponent, it works as a secondary grab. If luigi is in the air, it can be used to move him in the air. Whichever direction luigi holds it, luigi is pulled that direction. Similarly, if used off the ledge, it can be angled upwards to be pulled up, angled diagonally to be pulled diagonally, etc. It can be used to suck in projectiles, and if it was an energy based projectile, then he can "blow out that type of elemental ghost" with his neutral special for a little bit.

Both would have limitations to how much it can be used, of course.

This makes luigi far more slippery, makes him much more unique. It gives him more aerial control while remaining as weird/slippery/banana-peel/floaty/maneuverable as he already was.

This also retains luigi's being a conceptual mario clone while affirming that he's an opposite of him and giving him a much different playstyle, personality, and etc.

Then some new aerials would do him will.

Fixing Ganondorf:
More magic, less flexibility, more "Big brutish one-hit kinda slow lotsa knockback don't approach him." Make his down special sheathing or unsheathing his sword to change his moveset slightly, so we have a bit more unique moves.

Fixing Star Fox Characters:
Cut the clones. It's just too hard to fix these. Just replace either falco or wolf with Krystal, then try to declone the other as much as possible.

Fixing Fire Emblem Characters:
Fire Emblem Characters aren't a problem. Just separate speed/weight, like Ike vs Marth vs Lyn (Slow/Medium/Fast) and the changed moves will come with it. With that said, Roy probably shouldn't return, because he's not far enough from Marth or Ike/Chrom to really be unique.

Fixing Mother Characters:
Mother characters.. Just cut one or the other. The Franchise doesn't deserve two reps. If they both stayed, it's fine, because they're kinda different anyways.

Fixing Link/Toon-Link:
Link & Toon Link: They're fine. They're very conceptually different. Having Link be heavier/slower and Toon Link light/Fast is good enough. I think it's fine.

Fixing JigglyPuff/Kirby:
Jiggs/Kirby: Honestly, just cut Jiggs. They're too similar and Jigglypuff's only merit is veteran status.

 

[Fire Emblemier]

Has anyone played Sword of Seals/Blinding Blade? What does Roy have to bring?

As for Luigi, I think his down B should be him doing the Luigi Cyclone while having the Poltergust out and it both pulls him towards his opponent and visa versa. And his Uair should be him inflating a balloon with the PG until it bursts.

I'm playing Sword of Seals, but haven't beaten it, yet. Though, so far he doesn't have much to bring to the table to separate him and Marth then what's already there in Melee. Maybe give him a projectile? Eh, really, I wouldn't be bothered if he didn't come back. (Flame shield up)

Lucas and Ness are pretty much not clones. the only people who argue this, is A) thinks Mother is over-represented (I don't) or B) the specials are the same. So mostly we can only fix the specials, To improve on what Diddy said, I would make Lucas' down special offense up like in Proj. M. I would also change Lucas' FS to PK ground. Hopefully if this happens they would no longer seem like clones to people. When in truth they hardly were ever clones.

Ganondorf should have almost his entire move-set changed, make him more original. Anything non clone referencing to Zelda games is good for me.

Star Fox for me is the same as EddyBearr.

The other 2 I have nothing really to say that wasn't said. Even though they are both kinda cool.

 

[1983parrothead]

Luigification = Semi-Clone.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Hmm.. Let's see what I've got so far.

Lucas's special moves feel like safer versions of Ness' and need to be changed up to keep Ness as a hard-to-master-but-worth-it type of character. Their normals are mostly fine.
Ganondorf needs a sword based retool of his moves.
Luigi needs a Luigi's mansion reference but is otherwise fine.
Falco and Wolf need change but haven't got any concrete ideas of how.
The Links are fine but need balance tuning
Dr. Mario should be an alt costume.
Not sure how to handle Roy.
Pichu go home, you're drunk.

 

[FalKoopa]

Roy needs to be more of a rushdown character imo, so that he can take advantage of the sweetspot being at the hilt of his sword.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

I had an idea for Roy, for his Side attack he does a grand leap forwards and brings his sword down, like most sword characters did in sprite FE games to attack. It'd help his recovery too to boot.

 

[MagnesD3]

Omg did I just see a Jigglypuff and kirby comparison lol.

 

[EddyBearr]

Omg did I just see a Jigglypuff and kirby comparison lol.

I only have Melee at my disposal, but as far as I know, they haven't changed much from Melee to Brawl.

Size? Check
Shape? Check
Weight? Check.
Appearance? Check
Jab? First 2 are same, but jabs are almost all the same.
All tilts are the same.
FSmash is the same
DSmash is "almost the same." The difference is "a spinning animation."
Kirbys bair is Jigg's fair
Dair is the same
Down throw is extraordinarily similar, both hit multiple times then launch up.
Back throw is the same.

In total they share about 9/20 moves, counting "close things" as .5's.

They're as clone to each other as Luigi and Mario are in Brawl.

I'm not saying they're true clones, but they're far too similar, imo

 

[MagnesD3]

I only have Melee at my disposal, but as far as I know, they haven't changed much from Melee to Brawl.

Size? Check
Shape? Check
Weight? Check.
Appearance? Check
Jab? First 2 are same, but jabs are almost all the same.
All tilts are the same.
FSmash is the same
DSmash is "almost the same." The difference is "a spinning animation."
Kirbys bair is Jigg's fair
Dair is the same
Down throw is extraordinarily similar, both hit multiple times then launch up.
Back throw is the same.

They're as clone to each other as Luigi and Mario are in Brawl.

If you have ever used jigglypuff you know she isn't even close to a clone. Also they won't be getting rid of any of the original 12, her odds of getting in are 90/10.

 

[EddyBearr]

If you have ever used jigglypuff you know she isn't even close to a clone.

This same argument is used to say that Roy and Marth or Falco and Fox aren't clones because they play extremely different.

I did edit in two sentences for clarification. They're far more similar than smash bros characters from different franchises should have to be.

 

[MagnesD3]

This same argument is used to say that Roy and Marth or Falco and Fox aren't clones because they play extremely different.

I did edit in two sentences for clarification. They're far more similar than smash bros characters from different franchises should have to be.

Nope they actually are clones because of the insane amount of similarities, the gap isn't even close when it comes to Luigi or jigglypuff.

 

[EddyBearr]

Nope they actually are clones because of the insane amount of similarities, the gap isn't even close when it comes to Luigi or jigglypuff.

For two different characters in two different franchises, they are just as far from being non-clones as they are from being clones.

EX: Link vs Captain Falcon, Mario vs DK, Yoshi vs Pikachu, Fox vs Captain Falcon, Ness vs Pikachu..

They're just "too similar."

 

[Fire Emblemier]

I had an idea for Roy, for his Side attack he does a grand leap forwards and brings his sword down, like most sword characters did in sprite FE games to attack. It'd help his recovery too to boot.

I had the same idea, I thought it about it when I was typing the thing I said about Roy, it may work like ZSS down special or something, Anyways here's a gif of it.

Fixed*

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Now that we've had a couple of clones announced what we know is Luigi has a new jump animation and new idol animation and Toon Link's spin attack has a green trail like it does in Wind Waker.

 

[moneyfrenzy]

Because mario already has the FLUDD as a down b, instead of making the poltergust his down b it could be his grab, that way he is able to have a really different down b then mario and a different grab

 

[Al-kīmiyā']

Why is this post predicated on retaining the character's playstyle? Why do you assume that people don't want x character to play differently as well?

 

[SuperBrawler]

Luigi should be faster and jump higher.

 

[Deleted member]

I think Luigi should retain everything he could do in Brawl, but have different animations and make him a bit faster. If I were Sakurai, I would make Luigi's major strength be his juggling capabilities; you can rack up some damage from that down throw and follow up with any of his aerials.

Ganondorf needs a whole different moveset. His special moves just need to relate to Ganondorf more (I was thinking about keeping his side special while he uses a trident and fires projectiles from Ocarina of Time). He also desperately needs a sword and make him a sword and physical combat character. Ganondorf should have some focus on power and have some throws that lead into some combos.

 

[Frostwraith]

Did someone compare Jigglypuff with Kirby? I mean, seriously? They only share a few A moves, but all the remaining moves, the four Special Moves and Final Smash are completely different. They aren't comparable at all.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

It's been a while and no other clones have been confirmed to return. I'll update the OP with some ideas but does anyone have any more suggestions?

 

[Shorts]

I hear a lot of people talking about things like giving Luigi the Poltergust or giving Ganondorf a sword but are they taking into consideration how it affects the character's style?

Just a little fun fact, Luigi was going to have his Poltergust in Melee, but Sakurai didn't add it because he wasn't sure if it was going to become a staple thing for Luigi. Do you think we'll see it now?

Fixing JigglyPuff/Kirby:

Jiggs/Kirby: Honestly, just cut Jiggs. They're too similar and Jigglypuff's only merit is veteran status.

Silly, and painful to read. But, I just wanted to point out that besides maybe Pikachu, and a Pokemon Trainer, there isn't much reason to add a Pokemon character other than popularity or move potential. Jiggly isn't a clone of Kirby, and she's definitely the most wanted Pokemon character besides Pika and Mewtwo.