JigglyZelda003
Smash Hero
Time to discuss Toonie and how much we I despise him. Toonie is alot nicer to deal with than brawl but still a pain to chase around the stage and harder to kill.
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Therein lies the key aspect of the matchup: Toon Link is heavily reliant on his projectiles, particularly boomerangsI've only fought one good Toon Link; pretty sure that that was the worst match I've ever had.
All he did was throw his boomerang and then followup with his FAir when it popped me up, and that always caught me by surprise. He would usually kill the same way, just adding an U-Smash to the end of the whole thing...
Gonna have to agree with Zylach that this is a 45/65 in favor. I'd put it slightly lower, but I'm sure my experience was just that bad because I havn't fought that many Toon Link's. I don't think it's as bad as my experience makes it out to be...right?
Zelda vs Mario 45:55
Zelda vs Rosalina 49:51
Zelda vs Bowser Jr. 5:5*short discussion*
Don't quote me on this, but I believe ZAir got slight damage reductions as well as now having landing lag...? I should go check it out or ask the Samuses.ouch Samus sold out by her own friends. how abusable is Zair now? Zair kind of shut Zelda out in Brawl especially with ledge camping shenanigans from Samus, is it just as good as brawl?
And a sourspotted Fsmash isn't that weak, especially against lightweight Zelda. Oh and bair too.Zair has massive landing lag? That's definitely not true. It has less than 10 frames of landing lag.
Samus can't kill? Also not true. She can also kill with up tilt and screw attack also. Her kill options are not bad. On that note up tilt is safe on shield when spaced well.
Auto cancelling means that's when you can land with the move to receive no lag. So if Samus lands before frame 50 she'll get the 10ish frames of landing lag.According to the Samus guide I read, it has a lot of endlag though with the hitbox ending at frame 17 and autocancelling at 50. Is that info wrong? Basically, if Samus doesn't land at or a little later than frame 17, then all frames until ~frame 50 she'll be completely vulnerable.
The main things that really bug Samus in this matchup is that she can easily get Farore'd if she's carelessGood things for Samus
Good things for Zelda
- Zair has like no landing lag unless done out of an Airdodge, and honestly since Zelda lacks approach options it kinda bodies her.
- We can pester with Missiles to force shields or better yet Nayru's Love, which opens Zelda up for Grabs, from which we have Down Throw Combos.
- Since Zelda has no good approach options and is fairly easily walled by zair, they will often resort to using Farore's Wind to close gaps and punish the end lag on Missiles, so we need to be cautious at high percents, but similarly any Shielded Farore's Wind will led to an easy F-Smash or Charge Shot punish.
- Zelda's so slow that we can use our slow roll pretty safely
- We can punish Din's Fire with Charge Shot
- Weight Advantage
Overall I'd prolly say MU is 50/50, maybe slightly in either parties favour if people can raise some more points
- We're tall so sweetspotting lightning Kicks is pretty easy honestly
- You have a teleport recovery which makes edgeguarding virtually impossible (outside of ledge trumps) and off stage is usually where Samus can pick up a lot of kills
- Better up close options than us (though this is true of most if not all of the cast)
- Your Aerials may be laggy but so is our Grab so it's not always easy to punish them
I actually don't see this use of utilt very often (I actually never thought of using myself either. Maybe now my Samus will get better). In that case, what percents does this kill on certain weights? How does it affect Samus' hurtbox? For example, against moves that extend hurtboxes, I often wanna use Nayru's Love to catch the extended hurtbox with a disjointed, invulnerable hitbox of my own. Another example, if a Mario uses a nair as Samus' leg sweeps down, will the two moves trade and kill Mario if he's at a high enough percent?Sorry up tilt is a kill move against aerial targets where it doesn't meteor and is really strong.
Auto cancelling means that's when you can land with the move to receive no lag. So if Samus lands before frame 50 she'll get the 10ish frames of landing lag.
I agree that Samus' close combat game isn't as terrible as a lot of people say but it's still pretty bad since jab 1 is her only quick, nearly unpunishable grounded close-combat attack. Dtilt is pretty quick but easy to punish if it's shielded and her utilt is too slow, punishable, and techable. Meanwhile her smash attacks are laughably punishable. Also, I think Zelda's dtilt should put her hurtbox below Samus' jab 1 and Zelda will be using dtilt often when she's in a close-combat situation since it's her fastest move. I believe it comes out on frame 5 and Samus' jab 1 comes out on frame 3 you've definitely got us there. I dunno if Zelda would be crouched by frame 3 and possibly unhittable by jab 1 anyway.The main things that really bug Samus in this matchup is that she can easily get Farore'd if she's careless
with missiles (even relentless ones) and the usual risk of charge shot being reflected. But Nayru's love can be
baited and punished relatively easily. Samus's close combat game is also better than given credit for.
Her jab may often be ridiculed for not always linking, but the first hit is faster than anything Zelda has, and she's
outranged and outsped in general. It's often a misconception that Samus can't fight up close which is not the
case. She can definitely go toe-to-toe with Zelda even if her moves are more potent.
And if is in a situation where not autocanceling grappling beam gets her punished against Zelda, she
probably royally messed up her spacing anyway.
Samus is not poor on the ground. You would be surprised how Samus can really catch you off guard here. While zair is good versus Zelda, this only helps when Zelda is at the same Altitude. When Zelda is above, she is relatively easy pickings. If Samus is above, she can be easily beat with Zelda's up smash catching a falling up air, dair, etc.As a Samus secondary user, I can safely say that Zelda owns this MU. The only thing Samus has going for her here is her air game which isn't even that much better than Zelda's to be honest. It's only a tad better because of zair.
While Samus' aerials do have a lot of landing lag, most good Samus players will not land with their laggy aerials, so don't expect to punish many of these. Nair is bad, but do watch out for it off and near the ledge. It is fast, and can kill when fair won't. Bair with sweetspot is definitely more potent than without, but don't underestimate it as it is more than likely to knock foes offstage with or without sweetspot.Samus' fair is easy to fall out of and comes with a lot of landing lag, her nair is garbage, her dair also comes with a lot of landing lag, her bair has to be sweetspotted in order to do anything. Her uair is her bread & butter aerial since it's a mutlihit and has next to no landing lag allowing her to act immediately out of it usually with a jab or dtilt.
On hit, on whiff, or on shield? Either way, on whiff or on shield, a good majority of these are punishable. However, punishing f-tilt is tough without the Samus misspacing or without Zelda powershielding. Hell, that's how it is for most of these. Retreating bombs are not easy for Zelda to adequately punish since Zelda is rather slow. But if Samus isn't far enough away, then Zelda can punish.We can punish ftilt, utilt, dtilt, fsmash, usmash, dsmash, missiles, morph ball bombs, screw attack, and the infamous jab 2. Whiffed grabs should also be placed on this list since she has some of the highest endlag on whiffed grabs in the game.
Wrong.Did I mention that Samus can't kill anything?
You can only tech an utilt if you are also on the ground. If you are in the air, it knocks you away with pretty strong knock back. It is a super reliable kill move, catching people off of ledge, misspacing aerial approachs, or getting read on an approach or roll. The start up lag is also not easily reacted to so don't expect to avoid it entirely. Screw attack can kill Zelda better than most of the cast, since she is so floaty. Killing at 150% is possible at Duck Hunt, but it is most likely going to kill earlier at stages with lower ceilings so don't count it out.The thing about Samus' utilt is that it can be teched so it's absolutely not a reliable kill move and it's also fairly slow to come out. Plus, it's choreographed pretty obviously. It also kills fairly late. Screw attack has the same problem of killing terribly late unless it's used close to the top blast zone. A grounded screw attack struggles to kill at even 150% depending on the stage. I'll admit that Samus can counterpick stages against Zelda very effectively though. Delfino, Battlefield, and Halberd all work very much in Samus' favor thanks to her guaranteed uair combos that can finish in a screw attack kill that Zelda can't challenge. However, on all other stages, this isn't nearly as possible.
Zelda has to be on point when reacting to the missile or else she might miss the timing on the punish. Also, if Samus is able to shield in time, then a heavy punish can be expected.Pestering with missiles worked when Samus could missile cancel. Now, they are so laggy that Zelda should be able to FW every single attempt at a missile.
I disagree that Zelda can sill Samus earlier than Samus can kill Zelda. Zelda players too liberal with kill moves can easily be punished with one of Samus' own kill moves. Both characters will definitely have trouble killing if both players aren't too committal, but Zelda always has to be close enough, and Samus still has charge shot for surprise kills.Yes, Samus is heavy but Zelda doesn't have trouble against heavies, especially ones that are tall like Samus since she can elevator them at 80% for a kill. Meanwhile, Samus struggles to kill even at high percents like 120% where everyone should be able to kill save for characters like Sheik and Pika. Zelda's light but she's no Mewtwo or Jiggles. Samus absolutely won't be killing Zelda as early as Zelda kills Samus.
...But a good Zelda is going to ALWAYS snap to the ledge and never try to hit you unless you leave yourself totally open by charging a smash attack.To add to anything not stated before, I feel as if Samus is actually pretty good at edge guarding Zelda. If Zelda does not snap to ledge after FW, then she can expect to be hit with a charged shot. Even if zelda tries to recover with FW and hit Samus, we can easily just shield and wait for Zelda to either hit our shield or snap to the ledge. If zelda hits our shield, we can up b oos, or fsmash if zelda didn't land with FW on the ground.
True....But a good Zelda is going to ALWAYS snap to the ledge and never try to hit you unless you leave yourself totally open by charging a smash attack.
Oops :D...But a good Zelda is going to ALWAYS snap to the ledge and never try to hit you unless you leave yourself totally open by charging a smash attack.
I'm assuming you are looking at my guide. The zair frame data is from dantarion's dump so I looked for the typical flags. The flags on zair are kinda weird so I'm not sure what the autocancel window really is. The landing lag of zair is very short if you don't use it to cancel an air dodge. If you do air dodge before it it has the airdodge landing lag of 22 frames. The in air lag of zair is definitely super long. If you throw out a zair high up, you have to wait forever to do something else afterwards.Zair does 1.5% non-tipper, 3% tipper and the Samus guide has it as 10 frames of landing lag with a question mark. It's definitely longer than that.
edit: They have the autocancel frame as 50 where the hitbox ends at frame 17. That's a ton of endlag.
I've never thought of Zelda as a difficult MU, and would gladly take her over half the cast anyday. It's extremely easy to dodge your bomb thingies, and the ghost knight thingy. As long as the Samus is defensive, this is at worst an even matchup. Ftilt spam typically gets me in, and all it takes is one dash attack or grab and we have the lead. Now you *have* to approach us, otherwise we can just time you out and GG. Getting back on board is too easy, even on FD.I'll update my original score to reflect some new perspectives however, without specific numbers regarding KB and FAF data, I still feel like Zelda has a strong advantage here.
Defaults 60:40
Customs55:45
I honestly can't see how this MU could be even. I wish there was video of this MU between really skilled players like Nairo and ChozoX for instance.