Guide A Link Between Duels : SSB4 Zelda Matchup Thread: [Upd2] Diddy Kong

[DownWitDaWaveDash]

I mostly just lurk on these forums checking for new tech every occasion.... but Dthrow nair into fair is a true combo till kill percent!???? Teach me pls.. kidding. If that was real, we'd be a better character xD

Shouldve paid attention earlier, I noticed you had the bowser discussion so long ago :<

I have actual serious experience with dedede, having played quite a few including jdawg

Honestly this is basically bowser except with more jump/range and really good ledge coverage. The up air is awful if you airdodge early and strangely enough it hits out of nayrus love (saw it beat shulks counter too lol it must be intangible or hella disjointed)
Once dedede gets his hands on you is when the matchup sucks. easy to gimp and dedede dont go well together (unless ur villager or on FG) I have never landed dtilt on the ledge vs him. Even so if you landed it, he can poke through with up air or bust right through with the up b armor and land instantly on stage Jdawg

When zelda is on the ledge we have great options to cover it with Dsmash, grab and Gordo. Flub dair gets zelda punished if she goes for a low percent spike and misses the sweet spot.

Let me talk about one of the stupid ledge coverages that beat me.
-I grab ledge
-Slow moving gordo comes bounces Dedede stands behind it
-I need to choose option so gordo doesnt hit and stage spike
-I choose roll onstage,
-Upsmash apparently has backwards hitbox that covers it. I realized also that the front part wouldve caught normal stand up, so the best option was to jump.. which he could hard read the next time i guess

Dedede has a good chunk of our options covered at that time... I thought of ledge hop nayru love, but didnt want to risk regrab dsmash.

Keep in mind that I dont think we lose this heavily I just see that we have more spots where we have to worry about him rather than him about us.

Up b kills him early, like really early. Got a KO 77%

We can combo and string him to death but then 2 dthrow back airs and suddenly we've got a problem.

probably slightly in Dedede favor but only because the bad positions we put him in aren't as bad as the bad positions he puts us in.

I disagree with battlefield being unusable, we can take use with nair through the platforms, but i understand he can too

hope i didnt come across as stupid


Bowser matchup is 50:50 dont doubt yourselves

 

[Macchiato]

I mostly just lurk on these forums checking for new tech every occasion.... but Dthrow nair into fair is a true combo till kill percent!???? Teach me pls.. kidding. If that was real, we'd be a better character xD

Shouldve paid attention earlier, I noticed you had the bowser discussion so long ago :<

I have actual serious experience with dedede, having played quite a few including jdawg

Honestly this is basically bowser except with more jump/range and really good ledge coverage. The up air is awful if you airdodge early and strangely enough it hits out of nayrus love (saw it beat shulks counter too lol it must be intangible or hella disjointed)
Once dedede gets his hands on you is when the matchup sucks. easy to gimp and dedede dont go well together (unless ur villager or on FG) I have never landed dtilt on the ledge vs him. Even so if you landed it, he can poke through with up air or bust right through with the up b armor and land instantly on stage Jdawg



Let me talk about one of the stupid ledge coverages that beat me.
-I grab ledge
-Slow moving gordo comes bounces Dedede stands behind it
-I need to choose option so gordo doesnt hit and stage spike
-I choose roll onstage,
-Upsmash apparently has backwards hitbox that covers it. I realized also that the front part wouldve caught normal stand up, so the best option was to jump.. which he could hard read the next time i guess

Dedede has a good chunk of our options covered at that time... I thought of ledge hop nayru love, but didnt want to risk regrab dsmash.

Keep in mind that I dont think we lose this heavily I just see that we have more spots where we have to worry about him rather than him about us.

Up b kills him early, like really early. Got a KO 77%

We can combo and string him to death but then 2 dthrow back airs and suddenly we've got a problem.

probably slightly in Dedede favor but only because the bad positions we put him in aren't as bad as the bad positions he puts us in.

I disagree with battlefield being unusable, we can take use with nair through the platforms, but i understand he can too

hope i didnt come across as stupid


Bowser matchup is 50:50 dont doubt yourselves

Ok Dtilt doesn't let him grab the ledge so we can easily get a dair. when he's about to grab the ledge the armor is good. He also is in hitstun so he can't uair us and it knocks him up and we get a free aerial.
I meant Dthrow to Nair doesn't stop til like sixty percent, but then dthrow to uair works.
He has to approach us too most the time.
We can snipe him with farore's wind when he does a gordo due to the endlag.

 

[r_greening1]

There you go Macchi

 

[Macchiato]

DeDeDe vs Zelda

(Accurate Representation of the MU)

Neutral
Zelda will NOT be needing to approach this MU. DeDeDe has trouble approaching as well which is p bad. She has more than enough ways to stop the gordos. Dash Attack, Nayru's, Din's, Utilt, Dtilt. We can also snipe him due to the ending lag of the gordos and that can get him off stage. Zelda's frame data is much better than DeDeDe's, she can combo him to death with Nair strings. She has Dtilt combos forever and has Dthrow combos. DeDeDe may have range, but Zelda can easily punish all his moves. Zelda won't need to commit as much as DeDeDe. She can get very rewardful punishes on him due to his size. Bair OOS is a big deal in the MU for Zelda and is easy to land in the MU. Dtilt beats out grabs p well. DeDeDe has to try to punish or be very safe but the problem is the lack of safe options. Zelda can't be shield happy due to Inhale being an option. DeDeDe does have his dthrow combos to rack up his own percent. He can juggle us due to his disjoints and our lacking landing options, but the better airspeed will let us escape. At high percents, NEVER airdodge due to uair being able to kill ONLY if he gets an airdodge bait. Due to DeDeDe's tragic air speed, Zelda can easily Bait for a LK due to him probably not having a fast aerial except for nair which doesn't have that much range. She also has Phantom to block out Gordos. DeDeDe can suicide if he gets a stock lead but we can recover from such deep areas and we can just struggle out. I think it's a Suicide legal move. Zelda basically wins in neutral.

Character Comparison
Zelda
- Mobility
- Frame Data
- Combos
- Kill Confirms
- Better Recovery

DeDeDe
- Kill Power
- Range
- Weight

Edgeguarding
Zelda's Dair actually beats out DeDeDe's Armor at mid-high percents and DeDeDe doesn't have a hitbox on his head or body so it's to get a dair. She can also Dtilt at the ledge which will pop him up and he won't be able to grab the ledge. Due to DeDeDe not having a fast aerial, we can get a uair, better yet a dair if you airdodge. DeDeDe can't edgeguard her offstage but can cover the ledge with gordos and dsmash. We can wait out the Dsmash and then get on. We can also just jump and Nayru's if a gordo is near us and it'll probably hit him. Don't be predictable because he can get a huge punish on the ledge from one mistake.

Stages
BF/DL is probably a better stage for her due to the platforms messing up gordos and being able to let Zelda chain more nairs. DeDeDe might like halberd due to early uair or usmash kills. I would strike Halberd, FD, and DH. The more flat stages let him use Gordos better. A DeDeDe should probably strike castle siege, BF, and T&C against Zelda.

Customs
Phantom Strike lets Zelda have a better projectile and a great damage racker. DeDeDe gets Taste Test for more Damage but trades for the ability to suicide. Din's Flare lets her punish Gordos and him better. Zelda should use 1213.

Score
60:40

I have played this MU both offline and online.

 

[PUK]

How the MU is played in my home: the match start on SV because France
Zelda open the match with a fair Sweetspotted, then chains more fair and end the string with a bair. Note that ddd can airdodge, but he will have more lag than us. The crowed is on fire
Zelda try to style cancelling FW and SD
DDD send zelda offstge at low percent and zelda uses din's fire.
DDD:Me zelda is 7:3 in DDD's favor
Seriously the MU is in zelda's favor, but SV and FD are very good stage for DDD (here at least, he can camp the platform very well). BF is awful for him in this MU, and so is lylat. Other stages are even

 

[Rickster]

I just wanna add that Zelda can simply Jab Gordos away if it's not stale. It's actually pretty useful.

DON'T USE FMSASH OR NAIR TO HIT THEM BACK IT DOESN'T WORK

I hate fighting this character.

 

[Macchiato]

I just wanna add that Zelda can simply Jab Gordos away if it's not stale. It's actually pretty useful.

DON'T USE FMSASH OR NAIR TO HIT THEM BACK IT DOESN'T WORK

I hate fighting this character.

"DASH ATTACK, DASH ATTACK"

 

[Rickster]

"DASH ATTACK, DASH ATTACK"

Why would you dash attack when you can use a low risk move with only 9 frames of lag?

 

[Macchiato]

Why would you dash attack when you can use a low risk move with only 9 frames of lag?

Doesn't Gordo stale moves tho?

Also DeDeDe isn't fast enough to punish.

I find it better farore's wind at him due to the ending lag of sending a gordo out

 

[Rickster]

Doesn't Gordo stale moves tho?

Also DeDeDe isn't fast enough to punish.

I find it better farore's wind at him due to the ending lag of sending a gordo out

I don't actually know if Gordos stale moves or not...I've only had one break through Jab one time. Usually after hitting back 2 or 3 of them thy give up and approach. Then again, these were FG DDDs.

He can hit the Gordo, follow it, then shield it when it gets hit back (possible shielding our dash attack too) and then punish. Dash attack isn't safe.

 

[Macchiato]

I don't actually know if Gordos stale moves or not...I've only had one break through Jab one time. Usually after hitting back 2 or 3 of them thy give up and approach. Then again, these were FG DDDs.

He can hit the Gordo, follow it, then shield it when it gets hit back (possible shielding our dash attack too) and then punish. Dash attack isn't safe.

No, good DeDeDe's do that too.

mmhmm. I still find just sniping with Farore's wind the best method

 

[Zylach]

I don't have a ton of DDD experience. We have a top DDD player here in WI but I haven't faced him unfortunately. That said, I'm not a huge fan of the MU because of DDD's range. I personally don't think Zelda has such an easy time in neutral as Macchi states because Zelda is so reliant on outranging her opponents and DDD's ftilt alone keeps us far enough away from him such that it's difficult for us to punish it. At the same time, I actually really like phantom strike here because it's not like he can reflect it back at us and it outranges all of his options. Furthermore, putting a wall up against DDD makes it difficult for him to run in and get a grab on us which is the starter for a lot of big damage for DDD. I believe dthrow is also kind of a problem for us at kill percents since his uair is so extremely disjointed that we can't challenge it with an attack and it lasts longer than our airdodge so it's hard to avoid losing a stock to it.

DDD's edgeguarding is what really bothers me about this MU because Zelda has so few options from the ledge and DDD can cover all of them at once depending on his timing. A regular getup often ends with a gordo in the fact as does ledge attack and jump. Roll gets us dsmashed and ledge hop just not a great option for Zelda because landing lag on the aerials she'd want to use from a ledge hop keeps it from being safe.

What Zelda really likes about this MU is her ability to punish DDD hard for mistakes. Most of his attacks come with tremendous lag and he's fat so Lkicks should be plentiful. As for Zelda's ability to rack up damage through combos, it's not as amazing as it is on a few characters because his nair is actually kinda fast. It's no Luigi nair but it's problematic. I personally feel like this MU is even.

50:50 both default and customs

 

[Macchiato]

I don't have a ton of DDD experience. We have a top DDD player here in WI but I haven't faced him unfortunately. That said, I'm not a huge fan of the MU because of DDD's range. I personally don't think Zelda has such an easy time in neutral as Macchi states because Zelda is so reliant on outranging her opponents and DDD's ftilt alone keeps us far enough away from him such that it's difficult for us to punish it. At the same time, I actually really like phantom strike here because it's not like he can reflect it back at us and it outranges all of his options. Furthermore, putting a wall up against DDD makes it difficult for him to run in and get a grab on us which is the starter for a lot of big damage for DDD. I believe dthrow is also kind of a problem for us at kill percents since his uair is so extremely disjointed that we can't challenge it with an attack and it lasts longer than our airdodge so it's hard to avoid losing a stock to it.

DDD's edgeguarding is what really bothers me about this MU because Zelda has so few options from the ledge and DDD can cover all of them at once depending on his timing. A regular getup often ends with a gordo in the fact as does ledge attack and jump. Roll gets us dsmashed and ledge hop just not a great option for Zelda because landing lag on the aerials she'd want to use from a ledge hop keeps it from being safe.

What Zelda really likes about this MU is her ability to punish DDD hard for mistakes. Most of his attacks come with tremendous lag and he's fat so Lkicks should be plentiful. As for Zelda's ability to rack up damage through combos, it's not as amazing as it is on a few characters because his nair is actually kinda fast. It's no Luigi nair but it's problematic. I personally feel like this MU is even.

50:50 both default and customs

HmMmMmM my Zelda is reliant on baiting, and dair poking

 

[Zylach]

HmMmMmM my Zelda is reliant on baiting, and dair poking

I guess I'd say I rely more on shielding and punishing. I wish I could like dair poking but I just can't feel comfortable enough in the air as Zelda against most of the cast. Especially against the high tiers who all have amazing anti airs. Sheik's usmash/uair, Fox's usmash/uair, ZSS' usmash/utilt/uair, Rosie's everything, the plumbers' usmashes and uairs, etc. Plus, if it's shielded, I find myself getting shield grabbed because dair pushes the opponent with us so we descend in front of them. Maybe I just haven't gained dair enlightenment yet.

 

[Macchiato]

I guess I'd say I rely more on shielding and punishing. I wish I could like dair poking but I just can't feel comfortable enough in the air as Zelda against most of the cast. Especially against the high tiers who all have amazing anti airs. Sheik's usmash/uair, Fox's usmash/uair, ZSS' usmash/utilt/uair, Rosie's everything, the plumbers' usmashes and uairs, etc. Plus, if it's shielded, I find myself getting shield grabbed because dair pushes the opponent with us so we descend in front of them. Maybe I just haven't gained dair enlightenment yet.

Idk I feel like Farore's wind just makes it hard for DeDeDe to use gordos at all in this MU

 

[Zylach]

Idk I feel like Farore's wind just makes it hard for DeDeDe to use gordos at all in this MU

That's true. FW is good against gordo throw. Gordos shouldn't be overused though so our chances of sniping him shouldn't make the MU too one-sided imo.

 

[Flawed]

Lets talk more about tournament Dedede's (The ones that aren't trash)

I have to disagree with a lot of what is said above. Zelda doesn't have something that she auto wins the neutral with, therefore its not like we're stuck without options.

Bad D3's use gordo from afar. I am tired of reading about how the D3 spamming Gordo in neutral impacts matchups. This is an online mentality, where lag or baddies lets you get away with it. At high level play, Gordo has only the slightest impact in neutral, no matter what the matchup. The best use out of gordo is when its threatening space and limiting options on what you do/ where you move. A close range gordo gets reflected by uptilt and ftilt, but since its close range, we can just Dtilt right after we throw it to cover your reflect back.

Also, for those awful penguins who throw out gordo in neutral where you can teleport in, I hope that you are perfect on your reaction timing as even the crap ones will hold shield right after, and if thats a powershield, its a free dthrow aerial.

We out range you pretty much, and can pretty much stop at second jab distance and just swing, get a grab, and take the free 16% bair. Now we are safe to use a gordo if we feel like it, and we'll still have the stage in our possesion

Any dedede who has faced a competant zelda before wont just walk up grab as dtilt will break it, and wont inhale unless its from the air because zelda ftilt.

Now that I said all of that ^

Combos:

I have no clue about how this works, and I would love to play one of you to see how zelda's combos fair on a D3 with good DI, simply because he is different from the other heavies in the aspect of multiple jumps.

It saves him from some shiek fair strings that work on DK and Bowser, so I don't know if its the same here. If I can see some consistent strings and such that I can't just pop out of , I'll consent to zelda having advantage

Customs

Our customs are pretty garbage. (my opinion) Just some trickier gordos that give the intent that you should use them to actually pressure

 

[Macchiato]

Lets talk more about tournament Dedede's (The ones that aren't trash)

I have to disagree with a lot of what is said above. Zelda doesn't have something that she auto wins the neutral with, therefore its not like we're stuck without options.

Bad D3's use gordo from afar. I am tired of reading about how the D3 spamming Gordo in neutral impacts matchups. This is an online mentality, where lag or baddies lets you get away with it. At high level play, Gordo has only the slightest impact in neutral, no matter what the matchup. The best use out of gordo is when its threatening space and limiting options on what you do/ where you move. A close range gordo gets reflected by uptilt and ftilt, but since its close range, we can just Dtilt right after we throw it to cover your reflect back.

Also, for those awful penguins who throw out gordo in neutral where you can teleport in, I hope that you are perfect on your reaction timing as even the crap ones will hold shield right after, and if thats a powershield, its a free dthrow aerial.

We out range you pretty much, and can pretty much stop at second jab distance and just swing, get a grab, and take the free 16% bair. Now we are safe to use a gordo if we feel like it, and we'll still have the stage in our possesion

Any dedede who has faced a competant zelda before wont just walk up grab as dtilt will break it, and wont inhale unless its from the air because zelda ftilt.

Now that I said all of that ^

Combos:

I have no clue about how this works, and I would love to play one of you to see how zelda's combos fair on a D3 with good DI, simply because he is different from the other heavies in the aspect of multiple jumps.

It saves him from some shiek fair strings that work on DK and Bowser, so I don't know if its the same here. If I can see some consistent strings and such that I can't just pop out of , I'll consent to zelda having advantage

Customs

Our customs are pretty garbage. (my opinion) Just some trickier gordos that give the intent that you should use them to actually pressure

I can play you later if you'd like

 

[Zylach]

Lets talk more about tournament Dedede's (The ones that aren't trash)

I have to disagree with a lot of what is said above. Zelda doesn't have something that she auto wins the neutral with, therefore its not like we're stuck without options.

Bad D3's use gordo from afar. I am tired of reading about how the D3 spamming Gordo in neutral impacts matchups. This is an online mentality, where lag or baddies lets you get away with it. At high level play, Gordo has only the slightest impact in neutral, no matter what the matchup. The best use out of gordo is when its threatening space and limiting options on what you do/ where you move. A close range gordo gets reflected by uptilt and ftilt, but since its close range, we can just Dtilt right after we throw it to cover your reflect back.

Also, for those awful penguins who throw out gordo in neutral where you can teleport in, I hope that you are perfect on your reaction timing as even the crap ones will hold shield right after, and if thats a powershield, its a free dthrow aerial.

We out range you pretty much, and can pretty much stop at second jab distance and just swing, get a grab, and take the free 16% bair. Now we are safe to use a gordo if we feel like it, and we'll still have the stage in our possesion

Any dedede who has faced a competant zelda before wont just walk up grab as dtilt will break it, and wont inhale unless its from the air because zelda ftilt.

Now that I said all of that ^

Combos:

I have no clue about how this works, and I would love to play one of you to see how zelda's combos fair on a D3 with good DI, simply because he is different from the other heavies in the aspect of multiple jumps.

It saves him from some shiek fair strings that work on DK and Bowser, so I don't know if its the same here. If I can see some consistent strings and such that I can't just pop out of , I'll consent to zelda having advantage

Customs

Our customs are pretty garbage. (my opinion) Just some trickier gordos that give the intent that you should use them to actually pressure

What's the frame data on gordo toss anyway? If Zelda wants to snipe you when you throw it out, she has to commit to 40 frames before the reappear hitbox will hit you.

 

[ShadowKing]

Best roll option?

 

[DoubleReed]

As a DDD main I find that characters really need an air move to deal with the gordo effectively (DDD should be trying to get the gordo to hit you from above and below), and none of Zelda's air moves are reliable against it. Nayru's Love is incredibly bad against Gordos as it leaves you incredibly vulnerable and DDD has a long hammer.

You can't really dismiss the gordos that easily. Proper Gordo setups can make things really hard on Zeldas.

 

[evmaxy54]

I don't much about D3 except for the fact I get bodied by them on FG

Gordos >>>>>>>> Zelda

 

[Flawed]

I have even more zelda experience now. Fought a Zelda named Apollo who clearly only had FG Dedede knowledge. I won majority.
It was interesting watching him experiment and adapt game after game. Played about 20 games.
My ideas have changed, slightly. 45:50 or 50:50 In no way is this impossible for Dedede.

I mentioned that we outrange zelda, which is true, and double jab worked magic, and was getting grabs easily after them . I actually thought of trying to spam gordos to see how he would react to them. And after I won a few times, I did some far away gordos, but he did not FW them.

I was not gimped by dtilt which he did try a few times the first few games (until abandoning the idea), and I regrabbed the ledge a few games to see what his reaction was, then poked him through the stage with up air.

I also demolished him on the ledge, with gordo/Dsmash, Gordo Upsmash, Random read up air (ledgejump) and normal dsmash when he decided to regrab ledge to avoid gordo.

What was my issue was his combo game. Basically anything he did involving nair- I had no issue just floating out and reseting to the ledge. Nair would have to be a finisher, because a person who knows Zelda, will get out of the string as soon as the nair comes out. It was only a means to an end.

Here's what moves changed my opinion.

Dtilt > dtilt > grabs
Uptilt> Uptilt > Nair
Strange Dairs over and over which i punished heavily. I coulnt figure out why he didnt stop until he landed the sweetspot (which I teched) into a bair/fair? good lord, impressed me so

Only thing was one dthrow back air , and we are almost even in percents. Also, something is wrong with Zelda Fsmash (145% not killing? -______-)

FW apparently has no invincibility at the start offstage, as I decided to challenge it with Bair and realized it worked, and kept doing it.

Why do I think its even or Zelda wins?

Dedede is great at low skill levels, average at mid skill levels, and horrid at high skill levels. I honestly think Zelda has more than enough potential to match or slightly beat dedede simply because she DOES have some sort of combo game that doesn't involve a grab


If you guys want to teach me more about zelda, message me, cause I seriously enjoyed the fights with this fellow, its an entertaining matchup and I'm always smiling whenever I see a fellow struggle character doing well>

 

[JigglyZelda003]

faroes has never had invincibility sadly lol smash 4 version just has a better start up Window than previous iterations.

 

[Rickster]

So with the Jab buff does that mean we can rely on Jab a lot more to knock Gordos away? Before it only worked if it wasn't stale.

 

[Zylach]

So with the Jab buff does that mean we can rely on Jab a lot more to knock Gordos away? Before it only worked if it wasn't stale.

The percent to knock Gordos away is 2% isn't it? Since our jab now does 2.5/2.5/3%, it ought to.

 

[BJN39]

Wouldn't up tilt also work well? It hits faster and at least has a couple of frames in front of her, in addition it hits above her should it bounce about and land on her. Also it has massively fraudulent disjoint so it can swat from farther than people would think, and it's only 29 frames long now too.

 

[ZombieBran]

Strange Dairs over and over which i punished heavily. I coulnt figure out why he didnt stop until he landed the sweetspot (which I teched) into a bair/fair? good lord, impressed me so

We love us our Dairs, offstage and onstage

 

[Zylach]

Wouldn't up tilt also work well? It hits faster and at least has a couple of frames in front of her, in addition it hits above her should it bounce about and land on her. Also it has massively fraudulent disjoint so it can swat from farther than people would think, and it's only 29 frames long now too.

I think I've tried utilt before and the disjoint on it isn't really big enough to contest it. The timing has to be just right in order for us to come away unscathed. Maybe I just need more practice.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

so Gurls its Metaknight time. What do you think?

MK was everyone's bad matchup in brawl but wasn't Zelda's worst. Now he still feels roughly the same just watered down. Still can juggle her, get in her face pretty fast, phantom might help in keeping him out better but his speed is still frustrating. But other than our resident MK I haven't barely encountered them even on roll glory. I think I've fought more DH than MK.

Zamus tactics aside for an Early KO we still kill better and can out reach him if we poke just right. Can we Dair his upB?

40:60 vanilla
?? Customs

 

[BJN39]

We can DAir his up B somewhat. I do believe it has some sort of tiny invincible window at the start, but I'm not sure. If it doesn't then we could get some lulzy DAirs where it looks like he teleports into our foot.

Something new he got here are those crazy more guaranteed UAir to up B strings, which no doubt work on us. Though, I don't know whether on not he can start it from a dash attack on someone as light as us, or if he can chain it from the ground on us.

He can basically dance around us with his mobility.

At least he's a lightweight...? I think the fight on range is about even. Some of out moves out range his, but then some probably don't. Ftilt, Jab, Utilt, and Fsmash if all spaced well could out range him I believe. Dsmash and Nayru's probably go even with his range.

His Fsmash basically still has its Brawl endlag, which was our old Fsmash endlag

Thank GOODNESS this is no Brawl MK, but we get beaten.

Probably 4:6 (vanilla) something that bad in Brawl can't get much better that soon, even if the nerfed top tier was MK.

 

[evmaxy54]

He outcamps us

SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Hard

And if we overextend just a little bit that's us getting grabbed/DA'd/taking a ****load of damage. He doesn't need to try to put us into the air to juggle & Zelda is perfect juggle food.

His punish game > ours
His camping game > ours
His edgeguarding game > ours

I say for now 65:35 to MK

 

[Rebel13]

OK so this matchup isn't great. I did have the chance to play a really good MK (actually read rolls and did Uair to UpB) on for glory recently though, and I thought I'd share what I found.

So first off, MK has to approach us. He has no projectiles and low range on most of his moves, and Zelda can camp (not well) at mid-far range. Most of the games I've played vs MK have become a guessing game of approach options. Dash attack and dash grab both lead into a LOT of damage for him, and if he baits an attack his UpB OoS will KO Zelda relatively early. He is also a lot faster and can dance around our slowish moves.

All that said, I don't think this matchup is too bad for Zelda. Nayru's Love actually functions like it's supposed to and stops approaches on the ground, nair does good work for spacing, and Zelda can KO MK super early with UpB OoS if he does anything remotely laggy.

Very volatile matchup, neither side will likely survive beyond 100% at any point.

55:45 Meta Knight imo

 

[JigglyZelda003]

So first off, MK has to approach us. He has no projectiles and low range on most of his moves, and Zelda can camp (not well) at mid-far range.

not...really. from GO he "technically" must advance because of lack of a projectile but it doesn't take long for MK to be in Zelda's face. she can get like half a Dins and pray he misses the dash grab. she can only attempt to camp from full screen cause its the only time MK can't reach her in .5 seconds lol.


btw Gulrs can we still stop him with Dtilt on attacking approach? back in brawl trying to get MK to run into our Fsmash or Dtilt was like our only way of combating MK aggression. i've had hit and miss success on wifi trying it though. it could just be lag messing me up.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

About his uair up b kill setups, you can almost always escape his up b if you DI the first hit behind him. However, you have to hold behind him before the move starts so you have to be 100% positive the up b is coming

One more thing, his fsmash has barely any cooldown so it's used for baiting and punishing. Be careful if you see an MK charging/using a fsmash because when he releases it you probably won't be able to punish him

 

[warionumbah2]

You can't DI the up b if MK sweetspots the 1st hit, if MK doesn't space it right he gets the shuttle loop 1 that only pops the opponent up which allows them to DI a little or go too high for the 2nd hit to connect.

The sweetspot is reliable even at 150%, so when your getting uair combo'd mk just needs to use his 5th jump before buffering a shuttle loop to bring himself closer to Zelda.

The guy with the creepy black guy avy said what I wanted to say, slow characters just can't pin MK down so when you lose the lead he can just circle camp and get free damage when you do something punishable or when he feels like it. Can't react to a frame 7 DA you can anticipate it however, I remember katakiri saying this since the whole human reaction stuff.

60:40 or 65:35 they both mean +2 for MK, the ftilt buff gives MK another kill setup on Zelda but he needs to get in close. Utilt is also a good way to set up uair combos when he's at rage and you're at 0, pretty silly that we neglected this move until the recent buff.

Edit: whoops i mean +1, may as well be 60:40 in MKs favor.

 

[Zylach]

We do have a local MK player here around Milwaukee that I face on a regular basis and beat consistently. That said, he's no Ito so I'm not sure how much scarier really good MK players are compared to him. A lot of people have referenced MK's speed and that's definitely what makes this MU uncomfortable. Zelda can't throw out anything unsafe otherwise she's getting dash grabbed into guaranteed 40%+. Unfortunately, her safe options aren't all that safe against MK, especially stuff like jab which hits high so a ducking MK can dodge it completely and dtilt>dash grab. I feel like Zelda's only reliable option against MK is dtilt. A lot of MK's like approaching via the air though and Zelda can't challenge him there. All she has against his air options is utilt and that'll probably trade with his dair most of the time.

I do feel like, with the change to phantom, phantom could become more useful here, especially phantom strike. A MK approaching from the air can be SH>mid charge phantom strike. Plus, phantom's walling properties mean a ground approach is slowed down. I like throwing out phantoms just to see what the opponent does, not necessarily to hit them. I find that a lot of people immediately try to kill phantom which Zelda can punish. MK, though, can throw out a fsmash against phantom and be completely unpunishable.

MK is really light and Zelda's hard hitting attacks will kill him early. The problem is actually hitting him with them. Our Lkicks are useless against him as he can cover himself in the air so well with fair and bair. Fsmash is too slow and MK can't really be frame trapped into an usmash because of his multiple jumps. He's got disjoints so a smart MK will be safely spacing against our shield meaning no FW OoS kills for us. All we really have is offstage antics and MK's recovery is incredibly difficult to gimp because of his plethora of options.

40:60 default
42.5:57.5customs

Not fun.

 

[Suicidal_Donuts]

Zelda vs MK MU makes me barf. A good Meta Knight can be quite scary, or simply annoying.
Things not to do:

• Use Din's Fire at all unless he's a screen away. Onstage he's too quick, and offstage at angles stage level and above he can punish with Dimensional Cape, or probably something else. Dimensional Cape hurts the most though.
• Stay in shield too much. You will be dash grabbed, and his Dash Attack is safe.
• Forget about how many jumps he has left when edge guarding or being comboed. If edge guarding, try to go in if he has only one left perhaps, or is below the ledge, since he wins in the air against us.
• Use anything remotely laggy.
• Approach with anything with high startup. His moves come out quickly, probably before yours will unless he left himself open.
• Fall victim to Shuttle Loop and Mach Tornado near ceiling KO's. Stay away from anywhere near him in the air one double jump up.
• Go for a risky punish if you're unsure. Chances are he'll punish your punish. You can usually punish his punishes though too.

That's my two cents. Zelda can't do much except wait for an opportunity to punish, and try not to get grabbed. I think Shield Grabbing works against most of his aerials if timed correctly and they don't space properly, but certainly not his Dash Attack. Dtilt should be your fav move when he's on the ground, shield when he's approaching from the air, Dair spike him if you're going to go offstage, and DI/Dodge correctly to evade his kill moves in the air. This matchup is somewhat manageable, but have fun attempting to do much of anything. At least he dies early.

I'll agree with Zylach on the ratio. I would comment on Phantom usage as well, but I feel like the Phantom itself needs its own discussion now that it's useful in many more matchups, and not just "Wall the FG Scrub Lonk with Phantom and Farore's Snipe after your massive end lag" like before.

Edit: Okay, so I fought one last night that destroyed the Phantom every chance he could. Of course I couldn't punish, but I guess it did give me space/let me get closer. Sadly I could not beat him as our princess, as it seemed he knew the matchup very well (how?) and never did anything at all that I could punish bc Zelda's just so fast. The speed issue really hurts here, at least you can attack Sonic out of his approach options, meanwhile MK can just find a way around it easily.

 

[Macchiato]

Here's a match against a top MK, Katakiri

http://youtu.be/kn-OIbhFRiw

Just in time for discussion too!

 

[JigglyZelda003]

So Fox. Fox used to be kinda fun but now its not...

like most speedy people Fox runs circles around Zelda and unfortunately he can also kill her at 90% when rage just kicks in which makes this matchup really frustrating since its a race to see who can get who to 90% and land the Usmash first.

i hear his lasers got a lag reduction so Faroes into Fox when he starts shooting might not be such a viable strategy anymore, but if he decides to fire away more than one or two at a time spam Nayrus till he cuts it out.

Zelda still overall outreaches Fox which really helped out in Brawl combined with Zelda not being as comboable back then. but now Fox speed+hitstun kind of makes our bigger reach a moot point unless we are 100% accurate on our spacing him the whole time. Dtilt does clank with his dash attack so it's kind of still good at stopping Foxes who run in not thinking. maybe some quick phantoms too since at worst we'll trade out.

last time i fought a good Fox offline i was on Smashville and i felt pretty comfortable there. i'm not sure if Fox prefers platforms or not since we do have a reflector and if he's only pelting a laser or two here and there we aren't hard pressed to need platforms to avoid camping. i do worry about having platforms on though because if he catches us with sideB and lands on a platform he'll be closer to follow after us with an Uair.

i also got style points when i blocked his Usmash and hit him with a run off the platform Bair though, i don't remember if he died but it was very satisfying.

35:65 Fox, maybe 30:70. he can't troll us as hard as Zamus but Fox is still hard to catch.

customs ??