Guide A Link Between Duels : SSB4 Zelda Matchup Thread: [Upd2] Diddy Kong

[JigglyZelda003]

So we talked about Lucy already on the Lucina boards but now its time to go over Marth, the prettier princess.

This matchup feels roughly unchanged from brawl its just Marths only combo is dancing blade and low percent dthrow>Uair. With his new landing lag any bad spaced shield hits Zelda can grab now and Marth can't ledge stall. Zelda and Marth have about the same optimal reach so its sometimes a high game of chance because we both space the same distance as Marths tipper which is both terrifying and exciting. What do you girls think? 40:60

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

If you can read how they approach, you can actually hit them before they hit you.
Like one time I caught on to how a really good Lucinda/Marth FG player was generally a lot of the time going for SH fairs, but her Nair is fast and if you can approach before they do, you can hit them.
I will not lie when saying staying in one spot is one of the worst things you can do.
Edge guarding can sometimes be difficult, IMO idk their UpB has a really annoying hitbox that makes the timing for edge guarding hard :/
Utilt is helpful if they like to jump around you and using Ariels.
Sometimes if your in the air and they try to juggle you, I think FW into the ground could possibly help you, but at the same time be risky.
Yea 40:60 seems to be accurate, luckily we kill much easier then they do, well at least Marth who has to tipper his attacks for almost any KO.

Anyone else have thoughts?

 

[JigglyZelda003]

correct me if i am wrong, but that may be because you can attack Marths sword and it counts as hitting him. I dropped on Marth with a Fair after he whiffed a SB and I knew I wasn't close enough to catch his body but I still got s perfect kick on his sword.

upB has invincibility on start up but some time near the apex Marcina is vulnerable again because I've thump traded with a fub Dair plenty of times.

 

[BJN39]

Just posting the current MU sheet with the latest score additions.

Spoiler

|
Character |||||||||
Score | 45:55 | 40:60 | 35:65 | 45:55 | 40:60 | 50:50 | 50:50 | 45:55 | 50:50 Character |||||||||
Score | 35:65 | 45:55 | 35:65 | 45:55 | 35:65 | 50:50 | 40:60 | 55:45 | 35:65 Character |||||||||
Score | 45:55 | 45:55 | 45:55

​

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

I soooo find it hard to believe the MU vs Peach is 35:65 considering i play both characters.
Then again, I havent really fought a peach who even uses their float Dair and spacing it correctly....so idk what its like to actually be in that situation XD

I will say that peach's mobility is basically no better then Zeldas, maybe even slightly worse(though i could be wrong on that part)
Her projectiles wont be useless, but they will require proper reads/spacing.

Zelda im sure will want to constantly be on the move so Peach doesnt apply all of her crazy pressure.
NL isnt too bad because Peach most of the time will get close(not too close though)

Edge guarding......
i think Zelda wins, but thats only if you can get peach BEFORE she uses her insane upB, sometimes I recommend nair to hit her out of her float and send her closer to the blastline.
Both are light, have the (near)same mobility, tall, somewhat even in range, decent combos.
Basically for Zelda, its proper spacing/punishing and I almost wanna say its like hit and run?
If you are fast enough, try to nair her out of float as its very fast and good at hitting (tall)grounded opponents which pops them up, leading to some (possible)follow ups.
Both characters will space their moves to the death....lol.....Peach has her floating, giving her a better air game, but her Fair is her main KOing ariel compared to how all, but one of ours can KO.

I hope i covered some stuff and I hope I seemed somewhat accurate
Maybe at least 40:60 in Peach's favor? I mean It seriously cant be as bad as 35:65 right?

 

[Zylach]

I don't have a lot of trouble with Marcina. Everything both of these characters has is fairly laggy so we are free to punish them off of almost everything. One thing to be wary of is aerial mixups, I've found Marcinas switching up between fair and side-B in the air so when I think I have a free punish on a fair, it turns out to be a side-B combo starter so I get caught with the second hit and beyond. They beat us in the air since they outspace us but we definitely beat them on the ground since we have attacks that don't have lag on them like jab and dtilt whereas Marcina may have jab and I guess dtilt as well. However, we punish them harder than they punish us (exception is Marth tippers which is why I put Marth as higher than Lucina). Dairing them offstage is generally unnecessary as we can go really deep and use any of our moves after they've used their second jumps and they're dead. I prefer FF nair to drag them down even further where I can recover but they can't.

Beware of counter. Do not use FW here unless you're using the elevator. Teleporting onto Marcina's face is the easiest way for you to get countered and annihilated. Don't do it.

I say 55:45
and 50:50

 

[Macchiato]

I don't have a lot of trouble with Marcina. Everything both of these characters has is fairly laggy so we are free to punish them off of almost everything. One thing to be wary of is aerial mixups, I've found Marcinas switching up between fair and side-B in the air so when I think I have a free punish on a fair, it turns out to be a side-B combo starter so I get caught with the second hit and beyond. They beat us in the air since they outspace us but we definitely beat them on the ground since we have attacks that don't have lag on them like jab and dtilt whereas Marcina may have jab and I guess dtilt as well. However, we punish them harder than they punish us (exception is Marth tippers which is why I put Marth as higher than Lucina). Dairing them offstage is generally unnecessary as we can go really deep and use any of our moves after they've used their second jumps and they're dead. I prefer FF nair to drag them down even further where I can recover but they can't.

Beware of counter. Do not use FW here unless you're using the elevator. Teleporting onto Marcina's face is the easiest way for you to get countered and annihilated. Don't do it.

I say 55:45
and 50:50

I agree with this

put me down as Zylachs score

also Palutena beating Zelda lol

 

[JigglyZelda003]

marths tipper hits are safe on shield though, and even though marth doesn't kill as well without tipper we should assume marth is always aiming for tipper so we have to space around it and get marth to be off spacing Lucy isn't as safe as marth but still carries mobility and disjoint. Dtilt from both of them is still safe as is a spaced ftilt from marth.

 

[BJN39]

marths tipper hits are safe on shield though,

But are they really? I mean, lots of moves can get away with being used on a shield sometimes, but lots of moves are not truly safe. Well, at least certainly not every tipper hit he has, right?

Perhaps @ Locuan and/or @Aerodrome might have a better knowledge of this?

 

[Locuan]

They aren't safe on shield. Tipper hits have more hitlag than sour spotted hits. For example, if I tipper F-smash your shield I'll have 1.5x hitlag it's an easy punish for whatever character I'm against. The amount of times I have been punished for hitting a tipper smash on shield is pretty high. Our other moves have 1.25x hitlag modifiers so it's a bit less, but I have been punished for tipper aerials on shield as well. Additionally, people for some reason fear our F-air walls we throw out. You shouldn't be afraid of that. Marcina's aerial animations last for quite a bit and the hitboxes are only active for a small amount of frames. If we miss, a dash attack, or an aerial after ours usually does the trick to punish us while we are still in recovery frames. Of course, with Zelda might be different so I'm not sure.

The old frame data thread with hitlag stuff:
http://smashboards.com/threads/1-0-4-marths-frame-data.392027/

Aero's Thread:
http://smashboards.com/threads/marths-frame-data.403230/

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

They aren't safe on shield. Tipper hits have more hitlag than sour spotted hits. For example, if I tipper F-smash your shield I'll have 1.5x hitlag it's an easy punish for whatever character I'm against. The amount of times I have been punished for hitting a tipper smash on shield is pretty high. Our other moves have 1.25x hitlag modifiers so it's a bit less, but I have been punished for tipper aerials on shield as well. Additionally, people for some reason fear our F-air walls we throw out. You shouldn't be afraid of that. Marcina's aerial animations last for quite a bit and the hitboxes are only active for a small amount of frames. If we miss, a dash attack, or an aerial after ours usually does the trick to punish us while we are still in recovery frames. Of course, with Zelda might be different so I'm not sure.

The old frame data thread with hitlag stuff:
http://smashboards.com/threads/1-0-4-marths-frame-data.392027/

Aero's Thread:
http://smashboards.com/threads/marths-frame-data.403230/

May I ask about edge guarding you guys? it seems doing it from above is risky because of the speed and timing, though I could be wrong.
Whats mainly the best way to edge guard them, hit them out of their second jump before they UpB?
Also, their hitbox(on certain stages ledges) extends over the ledge correct? Like spacing a perfect dtilt could set up something for us, I have done it, but i dont think its possible on every stage.

 

[Locuan]

May I ask about edge guarding you guys? it seems doing it from above is risky because of the speed and timing, though I could be wrong.
Whats mainly the best way to edge guard them, hit them out of their second jump before they UpB?
Also, their hitbox(on certain stages ledges) extends over the ledge correct? Like spacing a perfect dtilt could set up something for us, I have done it, but i dont think its possible on every stage.

Generally, catching our second jump is a good way to edgeguard. This way you can almost always ensure we will not get back to the stage. However, a smart Marcina player will know to conserve their jump until the right moment, so it might not be as easy as it seems. A drop down aerial to catch us when we don't expect it works if we are recovering low. Also, I can't stress this enough for any match-up. Ledge-Trump and the traps that can be set up from these are very good edgeguarding tools. A lot of players have yet to implement this into their games and it is incredibly useful for any match-up. The Dolphin Slash hitbox does extend over the ledge. If on a custom environment, Crescent Slash covers an even greater area.

 

[Gay Ginger]

Marth's tippers make this match somewhat difficult.

While his moves are punishable, so are ours. The difference is, he can KO us at super early percents with a tipper'd fsmash - probably around 40-60%. The move comes out so fast too, and I think it out-ranges all of our moves save Phantom (lol).

Even our Elevator - that they didn't DI - can't KO that early.

Spacing is important for both of us, but his tipper just gives him so much better risk/reward compared to our attacks. If we mess up our spacing even once, we can die at 50%. His tipper'd up-air also KOs around 100-110%.

Our saving grace is that he is susceptible to early gimps. Even a sour spotted d-air is often enough to prevent him from returning to stage.

Basically both Zelda and Marth require optimal spacing and precision but unlike Zelda, Marth gets a much bigger reward for spacing correctly. If he messes up his spacing, the reward is still better than ours on her aerials.

To make it worse for Zelda, she is so slow and her approach options are so terrible that Marth doesn't have a lot of trouble spacing against her because she can't put on a lot of pressure, get in, and stay there.

If the Marth is spacing as well as the Zelda, we're in for a rough time.

40:60

 

[Alacion]

-2 for both Marth and Lucina.

 

[BJN39]

While his moves are punishable, so are ours. The difference is, he can KO us at super early percents with a tipper'd fsmash - probably around 40-60%. The move comes out so fast too, and I think it out-ranges all of our moves save Phantom (lol).

Except that his tipper Fsmash is practically as hard to land as a LK. You need a hard read to land it.

And if that's all he's got (Aside the mentioned tipper UAir) than his KO prowess isn't all that impressive. I suppose he could accidentally tipper a shield breaker. But all of his KO ability at any good percent is only if he can land a tipper, which against a good Marth it can happen eventually, but his KO power aside that is meh.

Also, I'm gonna test it, but I can bet that his Fsmash tipper doesn't KO that early unless he's sitting on a lot of rage boosts.


____


Okay so I'm back from testing the percents of when Fsmash KO'ed at the center of a stage, and when it did if Marth scored one of those super hype hard read ledge vulnerability Fsmash tippers.

Considering we're assuming Marth actually lands a Fsmash tipper, then all percents are taken with correct/survival vectoring. Besides, there is a lot of warning hit-lag.

Table because tables are love

Marth Head|Center Stage 0% Rage|Edge Hype 0% Rage|Center Stage 100% Rage|Edge Hype 100% Rage
|78%|54%|65%|42%

So I was right. Unless he is above 100%, his Fsmash tipper KOs only a little bit earlier than an elevator correctly DI'ed. If either has rage the percents rise with each other, sort of. So if Marth gets Zelda at Tipper Fsmash percent, her Elevator is gonna KO quite a bit earlier than it used to, and vice versa. Basically, one of them can get a big momentum tip. (Pun intended.) All said I agree it's powerful, if landed.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

fighting Marth is about shield trust because you have to get those OoS punishes and know when to block and not to block because Zelda can actually get some punishes off of blocking.

 

[Alacion]

Blocking too much is just screaming for a broken shield in this MU.

A spacing character with a safe high shield pressure game is Zelda's worst nightmare.

 

[Zylach]

Marth can't land a shield breaker that will actually break a shield without the Zelda players being completely in tunnel vision. The amount Marth has to charge his shield breaker to actually break our shield is comparable to us getting anything useful out of charging phantom (2nd or 3rd charge) and we all know how good that strategy is. Shield breaker is nearly a non-issue at high levels of play. It'll be used when Marth gets a very hard read just like our fully charged phantom. Situational and rare.

 

[r_greening1]

I will say that peach's mobility is basically no better then Zeldas, maybe even slightly worse(though i could be wrong on that part)

Peach can pretty much dance around us with QFR and JCFF

 

[Alacion]

Marth can't land a shield breaker that will actually break a shield without the Zelda players being completely in tunnel vision. The amount Marth has to charge his shield breaker to actually break our shield is comparable to us getting anything useful out of charging phantom (2nd or 3rd charge) and we all know how good that strategy is. Shield breaker is nearly a non-issue at high levels of play. It'll be used when Marth gets a very hard read just like our fully charged phantom. Situational and rare.

I really don't think you have ever played a "high level" Marth then.

Do you know how frightening it is to have to rely on shield against Marth? Zelda has no zoning tools against him and yes reverse shield breaker is very present and quite good against Zelda.

 

[Zylach]

I really don't think you have ever played a "high level" Marth then.

Do you know how frightening it is to have to rely on shield against Marth? Zelda has no zoning tools against him and yes reverse shield breaker is very present and quite good against Zelda.

I'll admit I've faced some of the best players in Wisconsin who don't main Marcina but just pick them up for fun and I can beat them without seeing a shield breaker do anything. That said, just because they are good players, doesn't mean they know all the nuances of these particular characters. I can't say I've ever faced a Marcina main outside of FG in a tournament setting, only tournament caliber players that know the bread and butter of these characters. It was a bit premature to say that shield breaker is a non-issue at high level play. Thanks for challenging me on that as I guess I hadn't fully supported what I said.

Yes, shielding against Marcina is a lot riskier than most other characters in the game simply because they have a tool that is made to break shields where only a few characters can boast this. It exists, don't underestimate it. Be that as it may, don't overestimate it either. Don't be afraid to shield against these characters because we need to in order to properly punish a lot of their other tools. Remember, this is one of the few characters that you should not feel safe shielding against when they are in the air since B-reversed shield breaker is a thing. If they're on the ground, this is much less of an issue since I'm sure very few Marcina players will be keen on standing in one place, charging a move.

Thanks for the correction. That said, I still think the Lucina MU is in our favor where Marth is even.

 

[Zolda]

Can we dair Marth offstage?

 

[Macchiato]

Can we dair Marth offstage?

Yes p easily too

 

[Zylach]

Just wanted to make a note here as Marth discussion seems to have dropped off and we're not starting another character just yet:

Just went to Smash & Splash over the weekend in Gurnee, IL. Big regional tourney with big names there (Ally, Mew2King, Wizzrobe, and others). Didn't make it out of pools unfortunately because I was literally one win behind someone I actually beat 2-1. That said, I feel so much more enlightened about Zelda's MU's thanks to the high skill of players there.

Mario: Mario is a terrible MU for Zelda. I think my first score was something like 55:45 in Mario's favor. That is absolutely untrue. Mario tears right through Zelda with his near-unpunishable aerial game and forcing us to approach with fireballs which we can't do. His smashes are terribly fast so he doesn't have any trouble at all killing us whereas we have to work significantly harder to secure a kill on him. 40:60 revised score.

Luigi: I originally gave this MU an even score I think but I didn't have a ton of experience. This is far from true. This MU is also hell for Zelda. Like Mario, his fireballs force us into the offensive and Luigi is really good at punishing us for that since a grab means upwards of 40% in combos or a kill setup that is very difficult to avoid due to Zelda's terrible options when she is above the opponent. 40:60

Sheik: I cannot win against talented Sheiks with Zelda. I honestly have a better time using Palutena and I'm just now trying to pick her up as a Secondary. Sheik is mobile, has a projectile that is wickedly safe with needles, has a fair that can actually outspace a lot of our options, can punish us for using anything, and is ungimpable offstage. Honestly, this MU is 35:65.

ZSS: Mobility, safe, disjointed hitboxes, and safe kill setups make her terribly difficult to handle. I found it nearly impossible to punish any of ZSS' options because as soon as she was in with an attack, she was out again and Zelda's no sprinter. I won one game in 2 sets against a very talented ZSS because I honestly could not even touch her. 40:60

Just wanted to update all of my opinions given I now have new information to base my opinions on. I now know that I have a lot to learn and a lot to practice. Zelda's a good character and can hold her own in any MU (Save Sheik, I honestly think this might be unwinnable unless your name is Nairo) but she will struggle to do it. I'm gonna look into going to more big tourneys like this one to perfect our princess and hopefully give her some representation. This was a wake-up call to really focus on learning what those high tiers can do. Once I understand what they can do, I'm certain I'll do better against them.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Just wanted to make a note here as Marth discussion seems to have dropped off and we're not starting another character just yet:

Just went to Smash & Splash over the weekend in Gurnee, IL. Big regional tourney with big names there (Ally, Mew2King, Wizzrobe, and others). Didn't make it out of pools unfortunately because I was literally one win behind someone I actually beat 2-1. That said, I feel so much more enlightened about Zelda's MU's thanks to the high skill of players there.

Mario: Mario is a terrible MU for Zelda. I think my first score was something like 55:45 in Mario's favor. That is absolutely untrue. Mario tears right through Zelda with his near-unpunishable aerial game and forcing us to approach with fireballs which we can't do. His smashes are terribly fast so he doesn't have any trouble at all killing us whereas we have to work significantly harder to secure a kill on him. 40:60 revised score.

Luigi: I originally gave this MU an even score I think but I didn't have a ton of experience. This is far from true. This MU is also hell for Zelda. Like Mario, his fireballs force us into the offensive and Luigi is really good at punishing us for that since a grab means upwards of 40% in combos or a kill setup that is very difficult to avoid due to Zelda's terrible options when she is above the opponent. 40:60

Sheik: I cannot win against talented Sheiks with Zelda. I honestly have a better time using Palutena and I'm just now trying to pick her up as a Secondary. Sheik is mobile, has a projectile that is wickedly safe with needles, has a fair that can actually outspace a lot of our options, can punish us for using anything, and is ungimpable offstage. Honestly, this MU is 35:65.

ZSS: Mobility, safe, disjointed hitboxes, and safe kill setups make her terribly difficult to handle. I found it nearly impossible to punish any of ZSS' options because as soon as she was in with an attack, she was out again and Zelda's no sprinter. I won one game in 2 sets against a very talented ZSS because I honestly could not even touch her. 40:60

Just wanted to update all of my opinions given I now have new information to base my opinions on. I now know that I have a lot to learn and a lot to practice. Zelda's a good character and can hold her own in any MU (Save Sheik, I honestly think this might be unwinnable unless your name is Nairo) but she will struggle to do it. I'm gonna look into going to more big tourneys like this one to perfect our princess and hopefully give her some representation. This was a wake-up call to really focus on learning what those high tiers can do. Once I understand what they can do...

I dont really see how 40:60 is terrible, considering we(i think) outrange him, and spacing our moves im sure will help us, what do marios do from fireballs? grab? if so, NL isnt gonna be that bad of an option considering its little stun. I will admit staying in some spot is NOT a good idea, our Utilt and Fsmash will be vital for spacing right? our fastest attack is Dtilt and Dsmash so those are the best punishes we got, for someone who has some of the most rediculous almost no lag attacks -.-
So you slightly toned down your score, its not the worst thing even at that, but yea your mostly right in the other regards.
Does this mean using our air game is prohibited to a large extent? Thats where almost all of our lag comes from, the ending/landing lag of our ariels........Seriously literally ALL of Roys ariels got reduced ending AND landing lag, im sure we need that much more then he does.

But anyways the only thing i can say is to auto cancel dair and nair which can happen when used immediatly from a SH, and Nair isnt all too bad, you know if you could trick people into punishing and surprise them, i think we could get some reward for that right?

Overall, yea i will admit I hate Both......well all those characters because of how safe so many of their moves are, their mobility, and basically force us to approach.

Do you have any tips you could tell us on how you faced those skilled players? did they have limited MU knowledge on Zelda? How did they play? what did you do to try and counter/avoid what they did?
I hope you can let us know soon, if you dont mind[/quote

Sorry i totally screwed up that quote -.-

 

[BJN39]

Sorry i totally screwed up that quote -.-

I've got your back!

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

I've got your back!

Your very nice, thank you

 

[Zylach]

Lol, no problem on the quote, I figured it out. I've been thinking of utilizing Zelda's aerial game more than I usually do. I tend to stick to Zelda's ground game since there's less risk of having a million frames of lag. The thing about all the characters I mentioned in that post is that they all have SIGNIFICANTLY stronger aerial games than Zelda does. Basically, if I want to be aggressive (I'm absolutely the opposite) and challenge them with autocancelled aerial attacks, I have to worry about their aerials going right through mine. For example, going for an autocancelled dair on Sheik is nigh impossible because Sheik is in the air so often. Almost every single time I went to jump against Sheik, I'd be hit by a fair. That's the thing about patient Sheiks compared to combo-***** Sheiks. A reactionary Sheik will have absolutely no problem in hitting you before you hit her because she is so much faster in the air and has that stupid fair with the deceptive hitbox. The same goes for Mario, Luigi, and ZSS. I usually want to stay on the ground against characters that are so aerial anyway because that's the safest place for Zelda to be against them as she can shield anything they do from above and try to punish (I'm a fan of shield grabbing approaching nairs like Mario's while they think they can throw that out and land with a quick jab without realizing it's actually fairly unsafe unless they've got great spacing and timing on that nair).

As for Mario in particular, I say it's terrible but with a 40:60 rather than something like 35:65 because I'm giving this number to Sheik as our absolute #1 worst possible MU. Moreover, here in Wisconsin, we have Marios everywhere so I have a ton of MU experience with him. The same goes for Luigi whose MU with Zelda is probably worse than that though I faced a ton of Luigis at Smash & Splash (seriously, there were a crapload of Luigis there). I regularly face the #2 player in Wisconsin, Maverick, who plays Mario and I can beat him but not consistently which is why he's #2 and I'm #7 lol. Mario's fireballs are a problem for Zelda because she loses out in the mid range. She can pressure Mario to approach her from long range with Din's Flare (Customs ftw) but when she gets to medium range where mario's fireballs (default and fast fireball) reach her, he's fast enough to go in for a grab if we shield and we can't do anything about it. If we use Nayru's, he's fast enough to SH nair us as soon as the endlag starts. Meanwhile, our longest reaching attack (besides phantom because phantom is not good) is fsmash which doesn't compete with those fireballs in mid range. Our dtilt can clank with them though but sometimes the bounce will send them over the hitbox of dtilt and hit us. Because Mario has the mobility to capitalize on any option we have against his fireballs, he wins neutral against us easily. The only way for Zelda to get in to her optimal range (dtilt, ftilt, jab, fsmash) is to be very aware of how the Mario will act when he throws his fireballs at us. The thing about our optimal range is that our reward on hit isn't nearly as good as Mario's reward on hit when he gets to his optimal range, close-range. If we hit with any of those attacks I mentioned, we can come away with upwards of 18% (jab>dash attack... jab>grab isn't possible on Mario because nair) whereas Mario can get a ton of damage off on us off of one grab because Zelda is combo-bait. Moreover, if we whiff one of our spacing attacks besides jab, he can get in with grab or dash attack because he can cover the distance of our spacing attacks before we can act again. The same goes for Sheik though Sheik is going to come from the air instead. Obviously, Zelda wants to get grabs since that's where most of her damage comes from when the opponent is very low (32% on grab>dthrow>nair>bair though that's probably different now with nair changes) but being in Mario's optimal space is dangerous since he outspeeds us severely. Our grab can be interrupted by his jab every time and Mario loves throwing out single jabs as they are incredibly safe and rewarding if they land. Same goes for all the characters I mentioned, especially Sheik and Luigi.

Zelda really needs a fix to her landing lag. Seriously, she has some of the worst landing lag in the game for attacks that have the potential to be the worst aerials in the game as she can sourspot bair and fair for 4% and dair for 5% with no KB and get insta-punished for it. Not only does she have to be super precise with her aerials, she only gets one shot at it because of the endlag, and, if she's too close to the ground, she suffers from even more landing lag. Very poor design on her kicks that make her aerial game useless against highly mobile characters that are the top tiers. Granted, I get Lkicks on Zero Suits and Marios and Sheiks but they're rare and often don't kill because I can't rack up damage on them as I'm stuck in combos for days and getting frame trapped because I have no aerial answers to opponent's aerials other than airdodge or Nayru's Love.

I'm gonna try implementing a stronger aerial game with SH nairs and dairs especially now that I see some of our other Zelda mains hitting landing nairs>elevators which may or may not be due to the patch but it's an incredibly strong combo for Zelda if it is actually guaranteed and her nair is honestly her best aerial and I try to use it despite my grounded playstyle (dthrow>nair, nair high recovering opponents to catch airdodges, nair when the opponent doesn't expect me to as they approach from the air).

Honestly, the biggest problem I had at the tournament was being unsafe. Zelda has so many unsafe options and I get punished for using every move in her arsenal. I started implementing jab more in the Sheik MU (I didn't know the Sheik MU very well before this tourney which would've really helped out... oh well) and started doing a lot better but I was still getting punished and couldn't beat that Sheik player with Zelda once. I had to switch to Palutena to even stand a chance (I'm sorry for my treason).

As for tips against high level players, I don't feel like I'm really at a point where I can give tips yet as I felt fairly outplayed by around 30% of the venue but the biggest thing that I noticed I wasn't doing was being safe. I'm used to walling opponents out with fsmash and dtilt and that works fairly well in the Wisconsin scene but absolutely not at bigger venues. Zelda's jab is honestly one of her best tools against high level players since it is honestly her safest attack (That Sheik player told me how much more difficult it was to counter me after I started implementing jab much more against her). Dtilt is her quickest attack but has higher endlag so knowing when to use jab and when to use dtilt is critical. I'd say, space with jab more often than ftilt or fsmash since you can't be as easily punished for using jab and the distance it covers doesn't allow most characters to get in fast enough to avoid a dtilt immediately after or hit you before you throw up your shield. Against heavier opponents that are less mobile, feel free to wall them out with those higher range, higher endlag attacks like fsmash but those high tiers are too safe for us to use unsafe moves like that against them. I actually had a lot of trouble with opponents simply rolling behind me if I used fsmash to outspace them so they could punish me freely. Do not trust the long range of fsmash against high level players unless those high level players are using really immobile characters like Ganon (They exist. Scatt pulled out Ganon in grandfinals against Ally and took a game with him). Most people don't have MU experience with Zelda but their general strategy tends to work against her anyway. Throw out safe attacks, wait for her to make a mistake which means she throws out almost any of her attack, punish with combos until dead, rinse, repeat. The only way to get past this safe strategy is to incorporate one of our own. I'm used to sitting in shield a lot as opponents try and chip away at it with those safe attacks until they mess up their spacing or I can inch my way in close enough for a grab or dash attack immediately after they toss out one of their quick aerials. This has made me particularly susceptible to grabs which is another reason I do so poorly against these characters as they all get so much reward off of grab meaning they go for it often. I usually try and counter a grab attempt with Nayru's OoS but high level players learn about this method and bait it out by dashing in and jumping or foxtrotting in only to foxtrot out. They have so many ways of forcing a bad decision out of me personally that I need to work on. But I've started to utilize Zelda's safe moves more often than her long-range moves now and feel a bit more confident in playing higher skill players. I just need to refine that playstyle. That's what I tried doing to counter them. It didn't get me into brackets but it might when I've explored this playstyle more.

Sorry for length.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Lol, no problem on the quote, I figured it out. I've been thinking of utilizing Zelda's aerial game more than I usually do. I tend to stick to Zelda's ground game since there's less risk of having a million frames of lag. The thing about all the characters I mentioned in that post is that they all have SIGNIFICANTLY stronger aerial games than Zelda does. Basically, if I want to be aggressive (I'm absolutely the opposite) and challenge them with autocancelled aerial attacks, I have to worry about their aerials going right through mine. For example, going for an autocancelled dair on Sheik is nigh impossible because Sheik is in the air so often. Almost every single time I went to jump against Sheik, I'd be hit by a fair. That's the thing about patient Sheiks compared to combo-***** Sheiks. A reactionary Sheik will have absolutely no problem in hitting you before you hit her because she is so much faster in the air and has that stupid fair with the deceptive hitbox. The same goes for Mario, Luigi, and ZSS. I usually want to stay on the ground against characters that are so aerial anyway because that's the safest place for Zelda to be against them as she can shield anything they do from above and try to punish (I'm a fan of shield grabbing approaching nairs like Mario's while they think they can throw that out and land with a quick jab without realizing it's actually fairly unsafe unless they've got great spacing and timing on that nair).

when it comes to Nair, Zelda's Nair can beat many aerials that aren't swords. the only problem is you have to have Nair already going before their aerial is out this way they touch your active hitbox first. your footsies game is very important as Zelda because that, mind games, and power is all she has.

As for Mario in particular, I say it's terrible but with a 40:60 rather than something like 35:65 because...-SNIP-

on fireballs from Mario, you have to play with them. Dtilt some, shield some, but then you have to get creative. for instance i found that Fair is actually an option to deal with fireballs. Mario usually short hops or full hops a fireball to cover his approach, but there is a moment when he can't act only air control, this is when Fair comes in. if you expect Mario to jump a fireball you want to jump with him and meet him with a Fair, Fair can eat the fireball and with correct aim you just did %20 in return. even just a fub kick is still a tiny percent and can throw Mario off and make him a bit more wary of autopilot fireballs.

another option is to short hop Nayrus the fireball as it bounces on the ground so you reflect it from underneath Zelda. in this scenario Mario is already on the ground following after his fireball and normally you might shield it but jumping over the fireball and reflecting it back gives you a tiny bit of air time and again can throw Mario off in his approach. i find this reflect tactic better than standing reflect but it may be just me.

neither of these are full proof plans, but options that Zelda can do.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Lol, no problem on the quote, I figured it out. I've been thinking of utilizing Zelda's aerial game more than I usually do. I tend to stick to Zelda's ground game since there's less risk of having a million frames of lag. The thing about all the characters I mentioned in that post is that they all have SIGNIFICANTLY stronger aerial games than Zelda does. Basically, if I want to be aggressive (I'm absolutely the opposite) and challenge them with autocancelled aerial attacks, I have to worry about their aerials going right through mine. For example, going for an autocancelled dair on Sheik is nigh impossible because Sheik is in the air so often. Almost every single time I went to jump against Sheik, I'd be hit by a fair. That's the thing about patient Sheiks compared to combo-***** Sheiks. A reactionary Sheik will have absolutely no problem in hitting you before you hit her because she is so much faster in the air and has that stupid fair with the deceptive hitbox. The same goes for Mario, Luigi, and ZSS. I usually want to stay on the ground against characters that are so aerial anyway because that's the safest place for Zelda to be against them as she can shield anything they do from above and try to punish (I'm a fan of shield grabbing approaching nairs like Mario's while they think they can throw that out and land with a quick jab without realizing it's actually fairly unsafe unless they've got great spacing and timing on that nair).

As for Mario in particular, I say it's terrible but with a 40:60 rather than something like 35:65 because I'm giving this number to Sheik as our absolute #1 worst possible MU. Moreover, here in Wisconsin, we have Marios everywhere so I have a ton of MU experience with him. The same goes for Luigi whose MU with Zelda is probably worse than that though I faced a ton of Luigis at Smash & Splash (seriously, there were a crapload of Luigis there). I regularly face the #2 player in Wisconsin, Maverick, who plays Mario and I can beat him but not consistently which is why he's #2 and I'm #7 lol. Mario's fireballs are a problem for Zelda because she loses out in the mid range. She can pressure Mario to approach her from long range with Din's Flare (Customs ftw) but when she gets to medium range where mario's fireballs (default and fast fireball) reach her, he's fast enough to go in for a grab if we shield and we can't do anything about it. If we use Nayru's, he's fast enough to SH nair us as soon as the endlag starts. Meanwhile, our longest reaching attack (besides phantom because phantom is not good) is fsmash which doesn't compete with those fireballs in mid range. Our dtilt can clank with them though but sometimes the bounce will send them over the hitbox of dtilt and hit us. Because Mario has the mobility to capitalize on any option we have against his fireballs, he wins neutral against us easily. The only way for Zelda to get in to her optimal range (dtilt, ftilt, jab, fsmash) is to be very aware of how the Mario will act when he throws his fireballs at us. The thing about our optimal range is that our reward on hit isn't nearly as good as Mario's reward on hit when he gets to his optimal range, close-range. If we hit with any of those attacks I mentioned, we can come away with upwards of 18% (jab>dash attack... jab>grab isn't possible on Mario because nair) whereas Mario can get a ton of damage off on us off of one grab because Zelda is combo-bait. Moreover, if we whiff one of our spacing attacks besides jab, he can get in with grab or dash attack because he can cover the distance of our spacing attacks before we can act again. The same goes for Sheik though Sheik is going to come from the air instead. Obviously, Zelda wants to get grabs since that's where most of her damage comes from when the opponent is very low (32% on grab>dthrow>nair>bair though that's probably different now with nair changes) but being in Mario's optimal space is dangerous since he outspeeds us severely. Our grab can be interrupted by his jab every time and Mario loves throwing out single jabs as they are incredibly safe and rewarding if they land. Same goes for all the characters I mentioned, especially Sheik and Luigi.

Zelda really needs a fix to her landing lag. Seriously, she has some of the worst landing lag in the game for attacks that have the potential to be the worst aerials in the game as she can sourspot bair and fair for 4% and dair for 5% with no KB and get insta-punished for it. Not only does she have to be super precise with her aerials, she only gets one shot at it because of the endlag, and, if she's too close to the ground, she suffers from even more landing lag. Very poor design on her kicks that make her aerial game useless against highly mobile characters that are the top tiers. Granted, I get Lkicks on Zero Suits and Marios and Sheiks but they're rare and often don't kill because I can't rack up damage on them as I'm stuck in combos for days and getting frame trapped because I have no aerial answers to opponent's aerials other than airdodge or Nayru's Love.

I'm gonna try implementing a stronger aerial game with SH nairs and dairs especially now that I see some of our other Zelda mains hitting landing nairs>elevators which may or may not be due to the patch but it's an incredibly strong combo for Zelda if it is actually guaranteed and her nair is honestly her best aerial and I try to use it despite my grounded playstyle (dthrow>nair, nair high recovering opponents to catch airdodges, nair when the opponent doesn't expect me to as they approach from the air).

Honestly, the biggest problem I had at the tournament was being unsafe. Zelda has so many unsafe options and I get punished for using every move in her arsenal. I started implementing jab more in the Sheik MU (I didn't know the Sheik MU very well before this tourney which would've really helped out... oh well) and started doing a lot better but I was still getting punished and couldn't beat that Sheik player with Zelda once. I had to switch to Palutena to even stand a chance (I'm sorry for my treason).

As for tips against high level players, I don't feel like I'm really at a point where I can give tips yet as I felt fairly outplayed by around 30% of the venue but the biggest thing that I noticed I wasn't doing was being safe. I'm used to walling opponents out with fsmash and dtilt and that works fairly well in the Wisconsin scene but absolutely not at bigger venues. Zelda's jab is honestly one of her best tools against high level players since it is honestly her safest attack (That Sheik player told me how much more difficult it was to counter me after I started implementing jab much more against her). Dtilt is her quickest attack but has higher endlag so knowing when to use jab and when to use dtilt is critical. I'd say, space with jab more often than ftilt or fsmash since you can't be as easily punished for using jab and the distance it covers doesn't allow most characters to get in fast enough to avoid a dtilt immediately after or hit you before you throw up your shield. Against heavier opponents that are less mobile, feel free to wall them out with those higher range, higher endlag attacks like fsmash but those high tiers are too safe for us to use unsafe moves like that against them. I actually had a lot of trouble with opponents simply rolling behind me if I used fsmash to outspace them so they could punish me freely. Do not trust the long range of fsmash against high level players unless those high level players are using really immobile characters like Ganon (They exist. Scatt pulled out Ganon in grandfinals against Ally and took a game with him). Most people don't have MU experience with Zelda but their general strategy tends to work against her anyway. Throw out safe attacks, wait for her to make a mistake which means she throws out almost any of her attack, punish with combos until dead, rinse, repeat. The only way to get past this safe strategy is to incorporate one of our own. I'm used to sitting in shield a lot as opponents try and chip away at it with those safe attacks until they mess up their spacing or I can inch my way in close enough for a grab or dash attack immediately after they toss out one of their quick aerials. This has made me particularly susceptible to grabs which is another reason I do so poorly against these characters as they all get so much reward off of grab meaning they go for it often. I usually try and counter a grab attempt with Nayru's OoS but high level players learn about this method and bait it out by dashing in and jumping or foxtrotting in only to foxtrot out. They have so many ways of forcing a bad decision out of me personally that I need to work on. But I've started to utilize Zelda's safe moves more often than her long-range moves now and feel a bit more confident in playing higher skill players. I just need to refine that playstyle. That's what I tried doing to counter them. It didn't get me into brackets but it might when I've explored this playstyle more.

Sorry for length.

Interesting, I am glad you dont think Zelda is the worst character, like it feels like imo, she may only have a handful of 35:65 MU and most likely nothing worse, But many MUs that most likely arent in her favor, as in she can hold her ground, but the opponent has better options overall, which has the possibility of getting worse overtime, unless people continue to work with Zelda and reach her full potential.

The last 2 smash games were awful for her, this one shall NOT be the same.
But thats fantastic overall of how you are doing and stuff.
BTW do you know all of the changes she has gotten in the patch?
Theres the Nair to Elevator
Usmash being 20% stronger and Thats mostly it.

Also do you use NL a lot as a "get me off" option? I seriously find it great against grab-happy characters, but obviously some players may be smarter to counter this and it could get predictable, though it is something to always consider.

Anyways, good job once again, and im glad that you will continue to improve with Zelda, yea her Nair is unarguably her best ariel, and when AC it can be a surprising, fake-out.
Good luck man

 

[Zylach]

Zelda is absolutely not the worst character. She's not really good though either. More like moderate to satisfactory. Actually, the worst MU I've ever heard is one that someone just told me yesterday after the tourney. Apparently customs Yoshi vs. Little Mac is like 90:10 because there's something about Yoshi's custom eggs that make the match basically unwinnable for Mac so we should count ourselves lucky. I don't know all her changes in the patch yet as I haven't played much of it. I got back from the tourney at midnight last night (We didn't have the patch installed for the tourney) and played around with the new characters for a bit. I need to get my own gc controller adapter before I really wanna start playing around with any subtle changes to her. Unfortunately, I don't have my own and I don't like any other controllers.

I use Nayru's Love far more than I ought to. The B button is my emergency button and it gets me punished more often than I would like. It's a perfect get-off-me move though as it has invulnerability, hits on both sides of her, and lingers for a long time so it punishes rolls, spotdodges, grabs, etc. The folks in Madison, WI hate that move now lol.

@ JigglyZelda003 Thanks for the Mario tips. I'll pull these out when I face Maverick again and hopefully I'll be able to take an actual tourney set off of him this time instead of just friendly sets lol.

@ Dee-SmashinBoss Thanks a lot for the encouragement. That means a lot.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

I also find fake-outs to be somewhat decent i guess
Like for some attacks that if you miss, if they generally try to run and punish you with something like a grab, you could punish em first.
Like sometimes I use a Dsmash when I know its not in range with my opponent, but once they run to grab, i immediaty use it again, because grabbing is what people do so much out of their shield.......seriously grab happy characters are quite annoying.
Sometimes I jump Autocancel nair, by moving forward then moving straight back and then I sometimes go for an Fsmash, once again, if their grab happy.

Sometimes characters who like to use SH ariels, they may get too careless and could be susceptablte to FW when they least expect it, though this clearly wont always happen.

Yea, i feel the same way about NL, its so easy to make us panic and stuff because we cant get room and our best get me off option still is punishable.

But yea, Zylach im glad your doing alright and I hope your Zelda improves greatly, but one question you have any videos on your Zelda? I would like to see them and maybe learn something. I actually play Zelda more aggressivly believe it or not
I know its a weird option, but I like going aggro, but I can be defensive.....somewhat

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

Actually, the worst MU I've ever heard is one that someone just told me yesterday after the tourney. Apparently customs Yoshi vs. Little Mac is like 90:10 because there's something about Yoshi's custom eggs that make the match basically unwinnable for Mac so we should count ourselves lucky.

Nah it's just blown out of proportion. Imo worst matchup is non-custom Kirby vs WiiFit which I would label as 80:20 or +4 unless customs Villager can shut down a character worse.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Nah it's just blown out of proportion. Imo worst matchup is non-custom Kirby vs WiiFit which I would label as 80:20 or +4 unless customs Villager can shut down a character worse.

how is it worse if their non-custom compared to customs, Kirby's are among the most versatile in the game.....somewhat, but near all have some sort of use depending on the MU, but idk WFT customs so maybe i shouldnt talk.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

WFT gets a projectile that can hit crouching Kirby. I kinda just assumed that made the matchup bearable because Kirby can't approach for free and WFT can try and go for a timeout, but I could be wrong.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

while this discussion has been nice its time to move onto Ike. I feel Ike is equally frustrating to fight because he is pretty fast and hits like a truck and now he has speed boofs so what do you girls think?. 40:60

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Since when was Ike ever fast? xD
Though i heard he did get some speed buffs from the patch so that could be it?

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Since when was Ike ever fast? xD
Though i heard he did get some speed buffs from the patch so that could be it?

when played well Ike has always been at least Zelda speed plus a sword lol.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

True, plus he is heavy so he will be difficult to kill also adding in that you have to edge guard him in a safe way and before he uses UpB.

Both have punishable attacks, both are rather slower, both are tall, and have very difficult to edge guard recoveries.

We can combo him a lot better im sure of it, but he does outrange us and outpowers us?
Though i think we get more rewards from grabs.
At least our projectiles wont be totally useless, because I think dins fire is actually the best way to edge guard his UpB, if im correct when he rises and grabs his sword the super armour is gone correct?

Even so, we both can punish eachother hard so its all a matter of patience and not making mistakes.
I swear i had one time where NL beat his SideB, but I could be imaginin things.

But this MU is doable definatly going to be difficult because of the buffs in the patch he has gotten so yea at worst its
40:60 though 45:55 is possible.

Idk about customs, i am very inexperienced with them, plus I dont know any of his.

 

[Zolda]

I have replays of me fighting an Ike from Anther's if anyone would like to see.
They're before the current patch, though.

True, plus he is heavy so he will be difficult to kill also adding in that you have to edge guard him in a safe way and before he uses UpB.

Both have punishable attacks, both are rather slower, both are tall, and have very difficult to edge guard recoveries.

We can combo him a lot better im sure of it, but he does outrange us and outpowers us?
Though i think we get more rewards from grabs.
At least our projectiles wont be totally useless, because I think dins fire is actually the best way to edge guard his UpB, if im correct when he rises and grabs his sword the super armour is gone correct?

Even so, we both can punish eachother hard so its all a matter of patience and not making mistakes.
I swear i had one time where NL beat his SideB, but I could be imaginin things.

But this MU is doable definatly going to be difficult because of the buffs in the patch he has gotten so yea at worst its
40:60 though 45:55 is possible.

Idk about customs, i am very inexperienced with them, plus I dont know any of his.

No, Phantom gimps Aether much better than Din's.