Guide A Link Between Duels : SSB4 Zelda Matchup Thread: [Upd2] Diddy Kong

[Macchiato]

ggs.

I remember you landing dair a couple times. iirc one was when I had to use up B, one where I threw out an aerial, and one that didn't knock me out of my double jump because I was at 0%. Not sure when it is but it will beat the heavy armor at some point. I didn't feel very threatened by Zelda's kill options because they all seemed somewhat telegraphed and knew I could punish most on whiff because of large endlag.

Yeah her kills are high risk high reward. They can kill super early like even at 30% with rage but if it's whiffed then it's gonna be a big punish.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Well its great that we have some last minute looking into the Yoshi matchup lol. in the mean time we are officially moving onto Bowser Jr. for fun i would like everyone to use their favorite koopa in their post for the discussion, you don't have too its just for fun.

Idk what to think of this matchup. i haven't run into bowser kids much as of late unlike back in the early 3ds smash days and even now most are still pretty linear one trick ponies. the projectiles aren't really a big deal but...none of the players have really felt threatening just...annoying...somebody have more insight?

 

[BJN39]

I had some thoughts general about the MU, but I'm a little busy atm and can't make the post just yet. I'll go tell the Koopaling boards though.

 

[steelguttey]

most people think bowser jr is a projectile/zoning character but his projectiles arent really that good. neutral b is used for edgeguarding and down b is just controlling space. although down b basically stops you from camping a whole platform.

bowser jr has a stupid combo game, and his stupid combos are started with side-b. zelda is pretty much combo food, so thats pretty important here. just watch out for side b, he has alot of options out of it. he doesnt really have to commit to it much, either.

 

[meleebrawler]

Here's the rundown on Jr.'s side b: it starts at a moderate speed but can be (irreversibly) sped up,
it has armour on the lower portion of it's body (so don't try dtilt). To stop the move Jr. must either
spinout or jump. The spinout sets up edgeguards and can kill at higher percents but is very laggy.
The jump can be acted out of very quickly, which is what makes kart such a potent mixup.
With Jr.'s poor mobility he's going to be using it a lot whether he likes it or not.

Zelda's options for stopping it include Din's Fire if your timing is good and he's at a sufficient
distance, Phantom at a moderate distance and a Dair can be very rewarding not only for the bounce
but also striking his weak point (extra damage is taken when the character itself is hit.), just watch
that he doesn't sense you going for it and bop you with his Uair. Shielding is generally a safe
answer as long as you beware the up b mixup he can do out of it, and nayru's is good as always.

Jr. will usually have mechakoopas out to either throw (facing away) or assist his approaches,
either with side b or following it closely in an attempt to punish your evasion of it. A well-timed
nayru's can both reflect the koopa and hit Jr. too. But perhaps most critically is that deploying
them takes time, possibly enough that Zelda can farore's him on reaction if he does it on the ground.

In recovery situations both can do some nasty things to each other. Jr.'s Fsmash angled
down at the edge can catch Zelda ledge snapping, whereas Jr.'s up b puts him in a state where,
if he's tapped lightly enough, he won't be able to get his car back and he'll fall helplessly to his doom.
I don't know if sourspotted kicks or dairs are weak enough at low percents to do this, however.

 

[Sinister Slush]

So do you guys want to play against me, or was playing against Shado good enough?

 

[Macchiato]

So do you guys want to play against me, or was playing against Shado good enough?

I'll play add me

 

[BJN39]

I don't know if sourspotted kicks or dairs are weak enough at low percents to do this, however.

The FAir/BAir sourspots are probably the weakest single hit aerials in the game bar Little Mac's whole aerial kit... lol. DAir is also comparably weak.

I should think they're weak enough. I guess another question is if Zelda's Dtilt is weak enough to. If so, all of her sour-spot kick aerials are, as they have lower damage and KB stats.

 

[meleebrawler]

The FAir/BAir sourspots are probably the weakest single hit aerials in the game bar Little Mac's whole aerial kit... lol

DAir is also comparably weak.

Well huzzah, we've finally found something they can be good at!

Also, I feel that it would be in Zelda's best interest to avoid Battlefield against him
since it'll let him exercise his fairs more liberally, which Zelda is ill-equipped to challenge.

 

[Macchiato]

@ Sinister Slush added yew now I'll be waiting in the room

 

[Macchiato]

GGs @ Sinister Slush ok so the MU isn't that bad even though yoshi wins. Great yoshi with your egg set ups. Any advice for me or input in the MU?

 

[Sinister Slush]

Your zelda was very good, just random moments lag was popping up and I couldn't get out of eggroll or it made me use the move or not letting me shield at times.
Prolly less shielding cause I could've gotten more egglays off but kept messing up b reverses cuz wifi, not use the DownB too much when we're both on stage (yoshi is fast enough to just toss an egg to cancel the move and possibly get a fair in), but it might be a good edgeguard since it blocks Yoshi from going onto the ledge and takes the hit from his eggs.

The fear of getting hit from that alone forced me to lose most of my DJ airtime and have to eggtoss back above it so maybe if you followed up after the shadow to hit me above once I'm in the lag of egg tossing would work.

You definitely make the MU seem like 55:45, but if it was an even worse zelda it'd feel like 60:40 for sure.

Use neutralB when you pop out of the egg to hit any Yoshi's that's next to the egg/trying to hit you above, I still have the unsafe habit of trying to get fair or dair instead of safer route and just tossing eggs after swallowing, but oh well.

 

[Macchiato]

Your zelda was very good, just random moments lag was popping up and I couldn't get out of eggroll or it made me use the move or not letting me shield at times.
Prolly less shielding cause I could've gotten more egglays off but kept messing up b reverses cuz wifi, not use the DownB too much when we're both on stage (yoshi is fast enough to just toss an egg to cancel the move and possibly get a fair in), but it might be a good edgeguard since it blocks Yoshi from going onto the ledge and takes the hit from his eggs.

The fear of getting hit from that alone forced me to lose most of my DJ airtime and have to eggtoss back above it so maybe if you followed up after the shadow to hit me above once I'm in the lag of egg tossing would work.

You definitely make the MU seem like 55:45, but if it was an even worse zelda it'd feel like 60:40 for sure.

Use neutralB when you pop out of the egg to hit any Yoshi's that's next to the egg/trying to hit you above, I still have the unsafe habit of trying to get fair or dair instead of safer route and just tossing eggs after swallowing, but oh well.

Lol GGs and you're really good too. I agree the MU is 6-4. Those yoshi Bomber shield breaks scare me. Ugh

 

[Sinister Slush]

The DownB never breaks a full shield sadly like Dk or Bowser can, I usually been trying for it cause you were holding shield a bunch so it went down enough to break.
But my points earlier, even tho lag helped or there, still kinda stands at how desperate Yoshi is for the kill. Almost getting 3 stocked one of the times you won.

 

[Macchiato]

The DownB never breaks a full shield sadly like Dk or Bowser can, I usually been trying for it cause you were holding shield a bunch so it went down enough to break.
But my points earlier, even tho lag helped or there, still kinda stands at how desperate Yoshi is for the kill. Almost getting 3 stocked one of the times you won.

It's still a great tool to catch your opponent off surprise. Yew also almost 3stocked me a few times there tew. It was fun either way.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

I'll let @ BJN39 round out a number for Yoshi lol. thank you both for playing it out to get a feel for it.

Here's the rundown on Jr.'s side b: it starts at a moderate speed but can be (irreversibly) sped up,
it has armour on the lower portion of it's body (so don't try dtilt). To stop the move Jr. must either
spinout or jump.

I have a question on Bowser kart though, you say the kart part is invincible while he's moving does this mean Zelda's Fsmash may be able to stop it it does have a big hitbox? i think i vaguely recall trying to do that before but idk if it worked or not....

 

[Sinister Slush]

There was discussion and matches played at the last minute, we (realistically I kinda) out

If it's even skilled players from both sides (mid level, dunno if we'll ever see top level Yoshi vs Zelda unless Raptor faces Nairo's zelda or something even tho Raptor is midish High level but no top) can possibly be 55:45
But if both low level players, but Yoshi's tools being better all around than Zelda's, it feels like a 60:40.

Up to you guys which you feel like adding. Macchiato a rly gud Zelda.

 

[meleebrawler]

I have a question on Bowser kart though, you say the kart part is invincible while he's moving does this mean Zelda's Fsmash may be able to stop it it does have a big hitbox? i think i vaguely recall trying to do that before but idk if it worked or not....

Not invincible, armour. Basically on the wheels. Fsmash should be able to stop it
if he's not in the air, but you gotta watch for baits or any koopas he might have deployed.

 

[V1cegrip]

I missed the bowser jr. matchup discussion but if any zeldas want to get good jr. experience my name online is V1cegrip. feel free to add me and I can do a writeup of the matchup later if anyone still cares lol. I gotta check this site more often. The jr. forums aren't as active as I'd prefer I suppose but Imma try and post more to see if it helps at all.

 

[BJN39]

I missed the bowser jr. matchup discussion but if any zeldas want to get good jr. experience my name online is V1cegrip. feel free to add me and I can do a writeup of the matchup later if anyone still cares lol. I gotta check this site more often. The jr. forums aren't as active as I'd prefer I suppose but Imma try and post more to see if it helps at all.

Actually, Bowser Jr discussion has almost just started! There was just some remanent Yoshi discussion. I'm sure there are Zeldas who would enjoy playing. It seems really useful for gaining MU experience.

@ JigglyZelda003 hehe, you can bet that I did! I actually keep track of all individual scores, and then do a special weighting calculation. Basically, I half-weigh the far outlier scores. (Generally this only changes the decimal very slightly.)

@ Sinister Slush I actually just made your input "42.5" when calculating it. if I'd made it either 4:6 or 45:55 I would've gotten the same outcome though I think.

As for Yoshi, there weren't very many scores, but they calculated very very close to 4:6 favoring Yoshi.

Actually one thing I did like in the Rosalina MU thread was that each individual score inputted by a user was listed as well under each character spot. If you ever want to do that with ours JigglyZelda, (Add a spoilered input list.) I have every single score I can get to you.

 

[Sinister Slush]

plz no
Anything but decimal ratios lol

 

[Zylach]

Bowser Jr. doesn't feel as bad as I thought it would when the game first came out while everyone and their mum's was playing Bowser Jr. After figuring out how he works, I feel like the matchup might be around 50:50 or 55:45 in Zelda's favor. Jr's aerial mixups make punishing him quite difficult. Nair is Zelda's best tool against Jr when he's in the air imo. This also makes it difficult to gimp/meteor smash him because he has so many options for recovering though he should be recovering low as a last resort making the Zelda's dair a little more reliable though I'm always wary of getting hit with that hammer.

I never enjoy being above Jr at any time because his usmash is so powerful, has a wide ranging hitbox, and is a long multihit making it a great land trap option for him. While I'm talking about being scared of Jr's smashes, that fsmash... I've been killed with Jr's fsmash at 60%. It's no joke.

Zelda is still pretty powerful against Jr though especially since he has several laggy moves that I've seen so many Jr's use like dair or spinout from side B. Phantom is really powerful against that Bowser Cart too. Reflecting Mechakoopa gives Zelda the zoning it was supposed to give Jr. Fsmash and ftilt outranges most of Jr's attacks except for Jr's ftilt (That fork is rage-inducing). Sticking with 55:45 in Zelda's favor.

 

[BJN39]

Something I always remember is that Bowser Jr's Fsmash has this really weird whiff thing going on.

Sometimes I get hit by the first few Multi-hits, then land basically between him and his drills, and then I can shield it before getting hit, or not even get hit at all.

It always gives me a little heart attack because I think I got hit, but then I'm just in his drill.

Falling out of his Fsmash seems to happen completely on random though, so I would rely on it happening like with ours, lol.

Edit : Just to make sure, I looked on the MasterCore2 at his Fsmash data, and it does appear that the hit-box while being big and reaching far out, is kind of almost blind at point blank. I'd bet skinny characters can fit between him and the final hit.

 

[V1cegrip]

you are correct about the fsmash. jr has a lot of moves with blind spots in odd places up close. his ftilt, nair, and fsmash all have weird places that don't connect up close where they should. however, if spaced properly (as in the drills are hitting you cleanly) then you will not be able to di out. you could di out of zeldas fsmash in brawl. is it easier, less easy, or just random to di out of zeldas in smash 4?

 

[Zylach]

Zelda's fsmash is still pretty easy to get out of. Really floaty characters don't even have to try and fall out automatically most of the time. I have to wonder what's up with all the attacks in this game that have blind spots too. Is this just lazy hitbox development or what?

 

[JigglyZelda003]

it sounds like Jr. is kindred spirits with Zelda because she has blind spots on the same moves and a janky fsmash. Just less janky than ours.

 

[meleebrawler]

People are kind of overreacting on Zelda's Fsmash whiffs, they're not as random
as they seem. Mainly happens when you try to hit an aerial opponent or your name
is Zero Suit Samus. Likewise Jr.'s misses if he is too close, though the last hit
does have a disjoint past the drills so watch it. Both his Fsmash and Dsmash are
very unsafe on shield however.

If you're looking for truly random Smash whiffs, try Duck Hunt.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

I've had ganon standing still pop out of my fsmash. Zelda fsmash has 50% accuracy depending on how the goddess sakuratena feels atm it might go up to 60%.

its always been like impossible on aerial opponents and jigglypuff, but in a game where S/DI is kind of poor you would think it would be flawless at least on the ground but nope. Master core falls out of fsmash...

 

[BJN39]

Master core falls out of fsmash...

Don't forget about the target blast bomb either lmao.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Duck Hunt has an expanded Fsmash when charged though so some random inconsistencies aren't too terrible right lol?

oh yes target blast bomb...found that one out the other day. but lets not get on a tangent about who has the jankiest fsmash since for the longest i had 100% success rate against Zamus and now its 20%...lol also @ BJN39 didn't you have some more thoughts on ? i thought you were posting them later.

@ JigglyZelda003 hehe, you can bet that I did! I actually keep track of all individual scores, and then do a special weighting calculation. Basically, I half-weigh the far outlier scores. (Generally this only changes the decimal very slightly.)

Actually one thing I did like in the Rosalina MU thread was that each individual score inputted by a user was listed as well under each character spot. If you ever want to do that with ours JigglyZelda, (Add a spoilered input list.) I have every single score I can get to you.

forgot to answer this. its something to think about but idk. generally i just went with the averaged out ratio as the only listed ones because i feel like there may be random instances where someone might want to "attack" certain users for giving an input score they disagree with. they could just look up the discussion and do that too but its easier when its readily available on the front page rather than having to search for it. maybe my worries are unwarranted but if people want them added in i can add them no problem

 

[JigglyZelda003]

any more post about koopa kids? Discussion will be moving on tomorrow to the next match.

 

[BJN39]

any more post about koopa kids? Discussion will be moving on tomorrow to the next match.

I'll bet atm their player base is pretty small. Perhaps it should get the "possible rediscussion needed" tag. Actually, one sec and I'll add those things I wanted to say lol.

Edit :

Some things I had thought of concerning Bowser Jr.

To me it feels like Koopaling is kind of just an annoys you but not super special at any particluar thing, (No offense meant to Bowser Jr players. I may be missing something too.) aside maybe kill power, but that's really just his smashes.

His side B seems to be very important. It alone could probably cover distance fast enough to make Din's Fire out of the question in most cases. Of course if we can snipe him before he hits us. Protip: Aim any Din's fires vs clown car you actually use slightly up. That way you might be able to hit him even if he jumps. That said like usual using Din's isn't the best idea.

Apparently if he hits you with the car it leads into UAir for days, and the spinout can KO. (Though, that is very unsafe on shield.)

His projectile (Cannon) is imo might just be a worse projectile than Din's. In this MU for it to get any distance he'd have to make it very clear that he's using it, thus making it easy for us to use Nayru there. IDK how often Dowser Jrs use cannon though. Alternatively if you catch him charging to close you may be able to FW him.

His little walking bomb can be reflected. <<<<<<<<<<<
His bomb is ours. Just be careful not to leave youself open to an easy punish for openly using Nayru's. In some cases (Mostly when you're too close.) just dodging it seems to be better.

His up B makes him invincible for roughly half the way up. I think he becomes vulnerable just as he can attack with his deadly hammer. So, it may not be easy to snipe him with aa DAir if he's right below the edge, as he could just sweet-spot it while invincible.

Still, his recovery is limited, and if he's below the edge he'll have to use up B. You can either try to snip his ledge snap with a Dtilt or you could try and ledge trump him, as a ledge trump > BAir appears to be possible when I was testing.

His Ftilt and Dash attack have incredibly low endlag. I believe if he spaces it well on shield he can easily avoid a grab from us. IDK if Koopalings use Dtilt or Utilt, but both seem slightly less useful, but Utilt at least still seems alright.

His smashes kill. At as early as 60%. *tear* But they're slow too. (All of them are varyingly easily punishable on block.) his Fsmash has impressive range going past the drill visual, and angling it down causes it to be able to snipe Zelda if she's on the edge. Keep that in mind. (Already mentioned, but bringing ti up anyways.) His Usmash has good vertical range, but appears to be hard to land if the opponent is grounded. Of course Zelda is tall, so he could still probably hit her.

I need to look into it more, but there may be a way to CONSISTENTLY escape his Fsmash before the final hit by DI or trying to go TOWARD him, (Since the multi-hit portion is literally ONE hit-box that has an inward angle.) added with our skinny frame. I'm not sure without actually doing testing though.

He has a bigger frame (especially his clown car of course) so landing some moves should be comparatively easier. Of cousre, it should be noted that hitting his car will do less damage to him (And thus less KB) while hitting him will do increased damage (And more KB) this may cause a feeling of inconsistent KB.

My conclusion when I look at it is that Bowser Jr doesn't hold any special advantages against her, but, neither does she really. (Is it mean that I say it's because she's Zelda? LOL.) I'll give it 5:5 unless some little trick for either character comes up that would have an impact on the MU, this seems safe.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

so Wario....anybody fought one that didn't spam bike all day?

bike is better on stage...but Fsmash can still eat him out of it or you could just dair (can we reflect it?) i usually just avoid the bike spam. bite goes through shield so you have to be ready to either hit/run/nayrus if you expect or see bite coming.

honestly i feel this matchup is still pretty similar to brawl just Wairo lost Dacus and we lost GR>LK we also lost tires which is a shame, shame on you Sakurai. Wario's air game is great and he seems not as vulnerable on the ground. it should still be the bait and punish game like jigglypuff just Wario can tank more percent.

 

[Zylach]

My main problem with the Wario MU is Wario's mobility. He can jump around us for days meaning he doesn't have to commit to any of his aerials other than dair really and that's what Zelda needs opponents to do in order to do anything. The only moves we can reliably punish are dair, dash attack, and his smashes, maybe ftilt. The good thing is, if Wario ever does use his bike, Zelda has plenty of tools to combat it. Dair is probably the best option though the Wario player will almost always see it coming and jump off before you can land a hit. Forcing him to jump can sometimes work in our favor as it may leave his bike on the stage which is exactly where we want it since his recovery is mediocre without it.

In this MU, I've found that nair and utilt are our best tools since Wario will be in the air the majority of the neutral game. What we really have trouble with is killing him since he is so evasive and he basically can't be gimped off stage so long as he has his bike available to him. The amount of options he has offstage make dair meteor smashing really difficult as well. I find that it's overly risky to use Farore's Elevator in this MU because a) Wario has so few moves that we can punish with it and b) actually getting close enough to him (since he doesn't tend to commit to any of his attacks) to hit confirm FW1 is just too difficult. Since he's in the air so much, our LK's will be the main form of death-dealing alongside uair.

On the flip side, Wario has some quick tools for killing us like usmash. I don't believe it's particularly safe on shield so that means we can punish it but the endlag for his usmash is less than for any of his other smashes plus it kills effectively. Moreover, his bair is a powerful kill tool if it's sweetspotted.

I'm saying 4:6

 

[meleebrawler]

It is important to not let Wario frustrate you with his low commitment, or your attempts
to punish may end up with you in his mouth. Maybe short-hopped Phantoms could stop
him if he gets Fair happy. Can Wario eat Phantoms?

Oh and watch out for the waft obviously.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

from quick testing Wario cannnot eat Phantom even when Phantom is already sitting out he can't and we can't reflect bike (how sad)

 

[nozzle3466]

As a player that plays both chars but is mainly skilled at Zelda i think this matchup is 50:50. I have to say its an incredibly slow matchup by nature but Wario's aerial spacing can be avoided easily if you know what you doing. Nair seems to be really big in this matchup since wario will be in the air all the time and will actually be your main punish tool. Just watch out for the bite and bike tricks.

 

[BJN39]

Oop, @ JigglyZelda003 you haven't already told the Warios right? I'mma go get them... P:

 

[JigglyZelda003]

oh nope, completely forgot since i got in the habit of you already doing the summoning @ BJN39 lol.

Yoshi, Rosie, and are up on the front page, if anything is missing/should be added let me know

 

[BJN39]

oh nope, completely forgot since i got in the habit of you already doing the summoning @ BJN39 lol.

Yoshi, Rosie, and are up on the front page, if anything is missing/should be added let me know

Haha. Yeah, I spaced out when I first saw the discussion change, but now it's been done.

Actually, (more relevant) I'd recommend evening the Rosalina socre to 5:5 just for the sake of consistency, as all the other MUs are rounded to command # scores.

Also, just a little thing about how the score visual at the top of each character may be confusing when read. The way it is now, it seems possible that someone could misread the number as being in Zelda's favor (Which, lol.) since it's put

65:35

almost making it look like 35 for PEACH. (Partially since I always visualize the number pertaining to Zelda being the left number, and the one on the right being her opponents'.)

I'd just recommend maybe adding character heads to both sides of the number and/or coloring the score at the top to note it being disadvantageous or advantageous (Like with the green=good, yellow=med, red=bad sort of thing.) Example:

35 : 65

IDK if it's just me that sees it that way, but it might look nicer this way. (Or similar.) ^ ^