Guide A Link Between Duels : SSB4 Zelda Matchup Thread: [Upd2] Diddy Kong

[Macchiato]

Ok, I remember you. I just wanna point out some things based on a few post you made dealing with me.

You say some of the things I said before don't work. And make it seem like it is some problem of me being bias. Dins fire is not your-to-go tool vs me. I can easily ground Float Nair it and approach with it. The only time you would really land that a lot is if the player I just attacking or rushing in all the time. Or doing something laggy. Like a Turnip pull. I rarely have to block that move unless I am already doing something atm. Cause Grounded nairs is the best option to shut that move down.

The next thing you might say is that you was catching me with it off stage and the typical Up-B use Zeldas love to just throw out now as a gimmick. The matches we had had more imput delay then it should have. Meaning if I do something, it won't come out to nearly a sec later. That's why in some cases I was falling and you throw out dins fires and I seriously did not move and took the hit. I can easily Nair it which is what I was going for. I play based on player habits and reaction. Each time I went near you, you always side step and rolled to attacks ALOT. I would just bait these reactions out of you and punish you for it. When I failed to get the punish or screwed up due to execution, you just throw out moves and got the hit. This told you in your brain that this is actually legit and just keep doing it. No matter how many times I would bait these reactions out of you and punish you for it. You was just hoping for the best. Throw out moves and just hoped it worked. Hoping I goof and panic to an evasion or an attack. I told you this when you asked me for advice after the games. I baited up-B out of shield from you a lot and you still tries to get off no matter how many times I punished you for it. Just hope for the few times you actually get it. And cause of these, it lead to you thinking that the match up is even. It's not.

Even with the matches we had and me winning most of them, I am not gonna judge how this match up goes based on that. That's not how I do or judge things. What I am gonna based this on is player a high level player with Zelda. Cause that is important. More so the average level player. (though if you can't handle the typical play of said characters, you wont even make it to high level play of said character).

I just wanted to get this about the way to clear things up. Just hope I don't come off as a jerk or typical image people seem to have of me. Now with that out the way.

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I have to be a lil more careful with my ground approaches due to the Phantom. This just slows me down al il. Which makes things a lil better for you. But its really not that big of a deal. Cause if I don't try to commit to hard on approaches or don't challenge it, It just goes back to neutral position. This can be used in the air as well to also make me think more carefully on going for typical air approaches. If Zelda Mixups up both air and grounded phantoms. I have to think when and how to get in on you more than usual unlike brawl.

Outside of this lil tool, I don't see much to fear because:

- Zeldas approaches methods are weak and not really that safe. Very limited.
- While she has phantom to slow me down, its still a struggle to get in on a sold spacing Peach
- You have no answer to punish SPACED shield pressure. (Trying to get an up-B off me Or Naryu's love will get you killed)
- Not much of a threat edgeguarding me. Dins fair does nothing. Phantom can help a lil if you are smart with it.

Your goal here is to slow me down so you can get in my blind spot, where I can't do ****. Your moves here has more range and are faster then mines. So if I try to push a button out of shield I will get hit for it. Peach blind spot is standing out of her Nair/Jab range.

You have Phantom for this. And if your are smart with it, Dins fire and up-B. You cannot rush a smart Peach down. Your approaches are weak and The player can easily react/punish you for it. You seriously have to wait. Spacing Peach is also a hard one for you really cant be safe with your air moves. Short hop fair is laggy and Nair does not have that much range. You can use this move if you see the player getting too air happy with the typical dairs. It's a good move to punish her air moves and tell here to stay on the ground more.

But her ground game is also a problem and better then yours. Here is what it looks like so you can be aware of it.

And here is her neutral game here so you know how she moves, space, etc.

And lastly, ways she can approach someone so you can be aware of this and figure out how to respond to it.

I would give this match up 60:40 Peach I'm not going higher then this because of how I have to pay attention to her Phantom and the use of people throwing out up-B. Even If I bait the up- and Punish. can' really go in and extend my pressure for people might panic to the move or just throw it out thinking they can hit as an approach or out of shield option. If they don't then they can use this moment to get close to me (cover that blind spot)or get away from danger.

​

I do agree with most of this, but all of the tournament peaches ive fought or the ones from friendlies usually get hit by Din's more than 1 time. When they're floating to recover and a Zelda shoots dins, timing that nair is really important. The Din's sweetspot is really strong and offstage it would probably kill at 60%. It still makes peach have to nair and it does add pressure. For phantoms offstage use. In one of our matches I used it and you used peach bomber and you bounced off the phantom. It made you have to parasol. Maybe that could be an interesting edgeguard. Also I would like to play you again sometime, our matches were fun. Even though you won 70% of our matches, it was fun. If you have time to play today or tomorrow, tell me!

Also I don't think your bias. It's just during the old MUs thread you just pointed out everything zelda couldn't do. You sound bias in the old one. I hope I didn't come off as a jerk either. I really do respect you as a smasher

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Bowser is now live girls. Summaries for peach and weegee will be up later.

I'd like to say Bowser is still around the 60:40 Bowser range but idk. Bowser jab is >Zelda by itself add to that his tilts also really good, we can't SDI his multihits, and he's overall faster than Zelda while still retaining the weight and power adv he always had. Sometimes for me Bowser hasn't felt too bad, other days Bowser feels like fighting Snake just no grenades.

 

[BJN39]

Ooh, it's Bowzah time! p:

Once I'm not busy I'll get on my input/thoughts.

I'll also go tell the bowser boards...

 

[MagiusNecros]

I can say right now as a Bowser that a Zelda Edgeguarding with Nayru's Love or Short Hop Fair's can be a total nightmare and basically leaves us with the option of Fortressing above you since I believe NL can hit that first frame of when a character grabs a ledge where they are not invincible.

Farore's Wind also damages now so it can probably be used if a Bowser decides to chase it.

And I believe Zelda's Upsmash can catch a Bowser out of his Aerials.

You'll have to be wary of using the Teleport too much because if predicted a Bowser can most likely choose to use Klaw(the grab) or punish you with Bowser Bomb.

Jab traps also exist so watch for Jab to Ftilt or Dtilt.

Aerial Side B also cancels all landing lag for Bowser which means he can go right into anything immediately on landing.

Upsmash has Auto Guard so if timed well any attack you throw out will be negated and then you pay for it if you were too close.

Fortress OoS is also a reliable punish tool but if you block it we are open to every Punish in the book.

Also do NOT shield Bowser Bomb. You will not be happy. If you Powershield you might get away with it but odds are you get a broken shield. And Fsmash can pretty much kill anyone at the edge once they reach 30%-40%.

Hope this helps.

 

[Zylach]

Zelda generally matches Bowser in power though he kills us significantly earlier than we kill him, even with the elevator. I've had Bowser's live beyond 100% when I hit with the elevator whereas Zelda can be killed as early as 30% with that fsmash of his. Bowser is also kinda difficult to gimp offstage because his Bowser Fortress is so safe though it is still possible and one of my most reliable methods for killing him. Plus we can go really deep offstage for the gimp which he can't. The main thing that works to our advantage here is Bowser's size making it easier for us to hit with our precise aerials. I do agree that he generally outranges us on the ground which makes our spacing game really tricky. I play this MU in the air mostly because our aerials are slightly better than his I believe. This is a really volatile MU since we're both pretty read heavy characters (Zelda slightly moreso than Bowser) so whomever gets the first hit is at a bigger advantage already because we can both start fishing for kills so early. 50:50 for me.

 

[Jerodak]

Here's how I feel like this goes down. For Zelda, if she gets Bowser up into the air, or offstage where he loses access to shield, his run speed, up angled ftilt, and so on. This makes Din's easier to hit, it makes her aerials easier to hit, and when he's offstage she can get Dair spikes and the like. However, the problem with this is that Zelda does not have a reliable method of forcing Bowser into this situation without first getting near him while he is on the ground which is exacly where Bowser wants Zelda to be. Grounded Bowser is a pretty big threat to Zelda, he's fast, heavy, hits hard, has good spacing tools, and can punish Fair, Bair, and Up B with Fsmash on block. And just as I mentioned above about how Bowser is vulnerable when he's popped up into the air, the same goes for Zelda if she's thrown into the same situation, Bowser's Fair hit's above him before it hits anywhere else, and that's also one of the postions where it's disjoint is the strongest, combine that with a floaty, tall character with significant diagonal blindspots and the result is pretty obvious. Now one reason that Bowser would not like to jump at Zelda too much is because she can Up b and direct it at him where he is intending to land as a nice reversal tactic. However, an empty short or full hop or even auto-canceled aerials can be used to bait this out for the Fsmash punish.

Meanwhile, Bowser never feels overly pressured by Zelda, at long range her projectiles aren't great, and when up close he is just fundamentally much stronger and it's a very risky place for Zelda to be. However, she kinda needs to be there at least for brief instances if she wants to open Bowser up. Now her recovery can be tricky to deal with, because the up b's hitbox is large, strong, and if Bowser gets too ambitious then the landing reversal tactic can be used here. Of course that tactic can still be baited and even if Bowser never picks up an edgeguard on Zelda, he still hits pretty hard without having to land sweetspots and Zelda is kinda light. I want to say that this is an uphill battle for Zelda, possibly a hard counter but not unwinnable by any means.

 

[Amiracle]

It is a hard match-up. I think using DF to force Bowser to approach is a smart choice. You should also play it super defensive so that you don't get punished and die at early percentages. I also wouldn't try to approach bowser from below with an Uair because his down special will almost always be a guaranteed KO if it connects

Also what MagiusNecros said, use a lot of NL and Fairs

 

[Macchiato]

Just copy and paste zylachs post for me. 50-50

 

[BJN39]

EauxKay, finally getting to this! Big bum post!

Some Pros

* Bowser's body mass! He's large, and of course there's a reason he's the most popular pick for messing around with combos in training. Not only does he have among the largest hurt-boxes, but because of his high weight, he actually takes slightly more hit-stun than the average character, (game design) making some combos as close to real for us as it can get. Scoring a grab > Dthrow is great for damage racking, as it cannot be angled out of by bowser at lower percents.

This allows us to get either, Dthrow > NAir (13-17%, works till a little after 50%.) Dthrow > UAir (21% and works well on him as his large hit-box can allow it to hit even if he DIs correctly sometimes. It even has a small window where you can possibly net at kill combo. Somewhere around 100%.) or even Dthrow > BAir (26%. Either if you're lucky and catch it at low percent, or off of an air dodge read.) Not to mention even just landing a Dtilt or Utilt can get us a grab or NAir respectively. Basically, we have more reliable ways to rack up the damage on Bowser then he on us as he pretty much can only get damage off of scoring hits on Zelda.

His big frame (And shield) can also be helpful for landing our lighting kicks. (Or for spacing a Fsmash on his shield.) if we can land a well-placed LK or a well-spaced Fsmash on Bowser's shield, it's actually often safe. (Which leads to a badly damaged shield.) And If we land either, they're no slouch at damage and KO power.

* Technically, we have the projectile. Dare I say, we can "out-camp" him (Or really just use Din's without real projectile retaliation.) This could be handy for us as then we can make him react and maybe even approach. (Not to mention he doesn't have a lot of "easy Din's killer" moves to just nullify it.) Of course, its use must be slightly more careful than Brawl, as the hit-box is smaller, and Bowser (iirc) runs faster. Nonetheless this is a MU where the opponent doesn't have a longer ranged projectile!

Phantom could also be used, but I think it's riskier in most circumstances as Bowser can then just cover the gap (He can be fast <,<) and shield Phantom and bop us with a quicker move. Something else to note is that Bowser's double jab when freshest, can actually kill our Phantom (Ridiculous, right?) without overcommitting to killing it. (When not fresh though, he'll need to do an extra jab 1.)

Another neat thing with Din's in this MU is that at certain distances and timings, the sweet-spot should actually be able to out prioritize Bowser's up B via damage difference. (iirc) His mid-move multi-hits do 1%, and our sweet-spot can do 10-14% (Above the margin, thus out-prioritizes.) This could be dangerous when edgeguarding if we can use it right as Din's sweet-spot KOs really well near the edge of a screen. Someone can correct me on this if I'm actually incorrect, though.


Some Cons

* He's heavy, it's technically a double edged sword for us... While we can rack that damage up quick and easy on him, he can take way more damage that the average character. So we actually kind of need the racking advantage to just keep up with KOs. Also, when we get him at kill percents, we're also helping him with his...

* MASSIVE KO prowess. (And RANGE.) Like, too many of his moves contain crazy KB. He also has range that's very hard for Zelda to challenge. His Jab and Ftilt alone are basically the same (Or slightly longer.) range than her Ftilt and Fsmash respectively. Not to mention those two moves are faster than Zeldas two comparables. Trying to get IN on him offensively will be pretty difficult. (Thankfully we have Din's?) Just as mentioned above, when we get the damage up, his strong moves become easily viable KO moves, allowing him to rebalance the battle while we're at 40% and he's at 110%!

Something in particular to note about pretty much all of his grounded attacks is that they have some sort of partial invincibility. On his Jab, Ftilt, Utilt, and Dtilt, his attacking forearm is invincible for the hit-box duration, and his smashes (I think) all have slight invincible parts too. Which is crazy, and is what can cause his already long reach to seem completely priority gdlk. So, basically, trying to directly challenge any of his ground moves should lead to getting punched in the face.

While we can sort of juggle him (And want to.) he can scary juggle us. At high vertical, his UAir KOs at just about the same as ours, but has noticeably less startup. If he can read our air dodge at above 70%, we could be gone. Oh, also, don't forget his whirling fortress OoS. It still exists, so anything just too unsafe can be caught in the whirls.


Some Ledge Guarding Stuff

* Zelda can be dangerous over the edge. Her DAir (even the sour-spots) have enough KB at later percents to score the gimp vs his weaker vertical recovery. Of course, landing it can be tricky vs his whirling fortress, but trading is even enough. The sweet-spot can get rid of him very early, if you can manage to land it. This can be very nice for avoiding letting him have rage boosts for long. It has also been mentioned that Nayru's can be pretty annoying for at least getting more damage when used right. Zeldas shouldn't be too afraid of trying to go deep to give him more damage or KO him. Our recovery is beautifully long~

* Bowser, do NOT let him read your recovery or recovery movements. While he may SEEM to have problems going deep, a good Bowser can go out far-ish horizontally, and go for BAirs with little problem. If your AD is read, you could be gone super early. Luckily for most occasions of recovery, we can teleport directly to the edge. Be careful about predictable timing, though as he can technically catch Zelda during that TINY vulnerable period of ledgesnapping with a BAir, though it's uncommon.

If you're on the edge, Bowser can be pretty nasty about preventing you from making it on-stage. His whirling fortress has good hit duration, allowing it to catch some types of getups, or he can also just stand a roll's length away, preventing rolls, but ALSO possibly cover your normal getup with a Ftilt or Jab. Though, if shielded, you've made it off the edge, which is good.


Overall, I feel like there is a lot of balances in this MU, such as Zelda comboing up damage, but Bowser KOing generally earlier, and Bowser having more attack range, but Zelda having a (Sort of) projectile. I'd score it as 5:5. I haven't covered everything, but these are just a few things I came up with. I'm not too sure on stages, but I'd probably say something larger, as then you could possibly get more Din's advantage. If you'd like, you could also risk going to a lower ceilinged stage if you want earlier FW Elevator KOs.

Also, @ MagiusNecros and @ J Jerodak you both point out Zeldas using up B and hitting your shield, or baiting it to hit them back. But no Zelda should ever really be using FW to attack with just the reappear anymore, it was really just a bad gimmick that worked early on, and it shouldn't be considered. Also, feel free to score the MU if you had had a decided number in mind. ^ ^

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Bowser never has to leave the stage to confront Zelda unless he feels like it. all he has to do is walk to the ledge and start flamebreath the moment we disappear and he can harass us risk free that way. even if we don't die the only answer we have is to keep trying to faroes to the ledge or try to jump and wiggle our way past with a Faroes

 

[MagiusNecros]

Bowser never has to leave the stage to confront Zelda unless he feels like it. all he has to do is walk to the ledge and start flamebreath the moment we disappear and he can harass us risk free that way. even if we don't die the only answer we have is to keep trying to faroes to the ledge or try to jump and wiggle our way past with a Faroes

If he tries to edge guard with Flame Breath you can easily Farore his backside. Provided you have the right distance to do such a thing.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

If he tries to edge guard with Flame Breath you can easily Farore his backside. Provided you have the right distance to do such a thing.

well while there is that it's still a 50:50 stuation if Zelda is horizontal to the stage lol

any last replies on Bowser? i feel we'll move on monday or tuesday to the next character

 

[Macchiato]

well while there is that it's still a 50:50 stuation if Zelda is horizontal to the stage lol

any last replies on Bowser? i feel we'll move on monday or tuesday to the next character

Ill say its 6-4

Waiting for rosie to explain why i think the MU is in zeldas favor

 

[rabbits]

I thought the next character was Yoshi?

 

[BJN39]

I thought the next character was Yoshi?

Yeah, it is.

I think macchiato was just voicing his excitement to discuss the Rosaluma MU. Tbh I AM a little curious about his argument as to why it's in Zelda's favor...

 

[Macchiato]

I guess I will wait
*crys*

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Are we truly at Yoshi already? anyway this matchup sucks because Yoshi is pretty free so he will now be called Freeoshi

At first i felt like this matchup was just unbearable as Zelda but after beating a Freeoshi below my skill lvl offline i now feel like this matchup is a rough 6-4 Freeoshi

cons: speed. Freeoshi is really fast in both movement and attacks with very little long cooldown moves that aren't covered by something. like Dash Attack has a cooldown but it also crosses over and Yoshi bomb has star hitboxes afterwards. its like every other ground and air move is stupid fast and it can be hard for Zelda to keep up unless Freeoshi is throwing out big moves all the time.

weight. Freeoshi is like Rollycario a faster moving heavy weight that can tank hits but unlike Rollycario and past game Yoshi Freeoshi can actually kill so now we can't just tank him to the same percents he dies at like we cound in Brawl.

super armor. I don't know if its a thing but i think if Freeoshi does an aerial during his doublejump part of that super armor is carried into his attack for like the star up frames. i've only visially seen this on roll glory when i tried to Dair his uair and he like kept going even though i know my fub foot nipped him. maybe it was random roll glory trolling. but that second jump armor means we have to be wary of hitting Freeoshi during his second jump because we might get hit back for trying.

power. Freeoshi can kill now and has fast kill moves (what happened to balance?). in addition Freeoshi is good at whittling down shields with his moves like Dair, Bair, eggs.

eggs. eggs are obnoxious. they are wierd to reflect, hurt shields alot, hurt both in damage and in hitstun when you get hit and help Freeoshi come back onto the stage (again where is balance?)

Pros:

honestly i don't feel like Zelda has any special pros in this matchup. other than if you catch him slipping you can Elevator or Ferrari's wind him out. i don't feel Zelda has any real threatening options to Freeoshi just her basic strategy of turtle till their morale breaks. this matchup is about 3 things

1.shield trust- Freeoshi really can't hurt too bad if you block too much. don't block till its about to break though. Freeoshi still has a quirky grab that is avoidable and his throws really don't hurt too bad. only other thing is Egg lay but with Farores you can easily break out if he tries to kill you with that. and if its on stage you'll take some damage but again its nothing to fear because he can't kill you in an egg.

2. fast reaction- he Dash attacks? follow him and push him back with your own. he Dairs? grab and dthrow. if you haven't fought Freeoshi offline or not much online he feels very safe but offline he does have some open spots that you can punish him for trying it. you just have to be on your game to punish because other than inviting Freeoshi to run into Nayrus or a Fsmash he's too fast for Zelda to charge him recklessly. and while i've only seen it on wifi he mashed a Nair inbetween my Dtilts. don't know if this is true offline but its something to keep in mind.

3. making him play Zelda's game. you want to get Freeoshi to play your game, not the other way around. even if your at a percent or stock deficit you want to at least appear like your still in control. an unbothered Zelda is not threatened by Freeoshi.

key moves:

Jumping Nayrus- in some instances you can jump and reflect Freeoshi's eggs back at him. but you can only do this for jump because if the egg hits the underside of Nayrus it will return post void the same direction and belt Freeoshi back in the face.

...................air............(doing nayrus)..................
.........................................................
................................................................
.........................................................................
..............................ground...........................................(freeoshi eggspamming)


Ftilt,Fsmash,Jab- Keeping Freeoshi out of panic jab range and just outright belting him for coming close. because at worst he's gonna toss eggs from far away but we can reflect them and Ferrari's Wind on a good read.

Utilt- used here and there and not as the go to AA to all his air assaults, just reminding him you have magic hands.

as for a stage you again want to go somewhere big and open or your favorite stage as i've mostly only fought the freeoshi from roll glory where there are no platforms but i don't feel they benefit Zelda other than tricking Freeoshi into a yoshi bomb on a platform and you fall through and Uair. and in the tournament i was in the Freeoshi person wasn't comfortable on Wuhu Island like i was so..lol

 

[BJN39]

This is a MU I don't really know much of, really. (Yes, two reallys.)

Your input looked pretty solid. I'll go call the Yoshis...

 

[JigglyZelda003]

I have a personal dislike of the new Freeoshi when i used to like fighting Yoshi in brawl.

Also all matchup summaries to date are up, let me know what you guys think and if anything needs to be added or edited.

 

[BJN39]

Oh good, I meant to relay the calculated MU scores so you could have them for the OP, but it looks like you've got 'em all already. :D

 

[Macchiato]

http://smashboards.com/threads/ssb4...4-zelda-fuujins-allowed.388507/#post-18464621

I guess we have our falco info. Does this mean that we'll skip falco

 

[JigglyZelda003]

http://smashboards.com/threads/ssb4...4-zelda-fuujins-allowed.388507/#post-18464621

I guess we have our falco info. Does this mean that we'll skip falco

no lol because by the time we get to Falco there might be at least one person who has played it more and can give us more input that what's available atm

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

For those who want to analyze Zelda's match-up against Rosalina, the Rosalina Match-Up Analysis thread is currently analyzing Zelda. If you have anything to contribute for the match-up, the thread will analyze Zelda until the end of 2/1.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

did all the Freeoshi quit? Nobody's shows up lol. I guess if no ones showed up by Tuesday we will move onto Bowser kids.

 

[Macchiato]

It seems that no ones gonna help on this MU. Maybe we should go to the lil' koopas now.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

they still have till tomorrow though lol. I think we'll wait till the end of today and if nothing else we can move on to Bowser kids tomorrow.

 

[Zylach]

I haven't even been available to comment on this MU so I'm sorry for how late this reply is. This is my most dreaded MU personally because, unlike other high tier characters like Sheik and Diddy, Yoshi has a command grab and has a really easy time at breaking shields. Eggs are the most annoying projectile in the game next to Sheik's needles. Yoshi is a wall of hitboxes at all times with no landing lag on nair, fair, or uair so none of those are punishable at all.

His nair stops all strings dead in their tracks. He kills ridiculously early, especially with his fair which is the fastest meteor smash fair in the game and his recovery is now really good compared to past iterations of him. His vertical recovery with eggs has been significantly buffed from brawl and we can't dair him while he's throwing eggs to recover since they cover everything above him. His mobility keeps him safe from our punish attempts.

There is nothing fair about this matchup. 7:3 Yoshi's favor.

 

[Macchiato]

When yew see Yoshi SD your stocks and pick Diddy
0-10

Jk
I think that this is a hard MU for Zelda because due to the super armor on his double jump she can't gimp him. Yoshi pressures her so well. He also is heavy and has high kill power.
My serious score is 35-65 favoring Yoshi

 

[JigglyZelda003]

i mean Yoshi can still be footstool gimped lol. personally i don't feel the ungimpability is too much of a bad thing. maybe its just me though

 

[Macchiato]

i mean Yoshi can still be footstool gimped lol. personally i don't feel the ungimpability is too much of a bad thing. maybe its just me though

imo it is because edgeguarding is where Zelda shines. She also gets early kills off this too and since he can't really be gimped. He's even harder to kill too which is horrible for us. He beats us in every aspect in this MU imo.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Sorry none of the Yoshi mains came by to help, believe me I tried getting em over since I revamped our MU thread made posts and even linked it multiple times and brought it up in our skype group but our boards are more dead than Mii swordsman.

I can't really put anything down since I haven't played against a Zelda main yet offline, unless you guys just want me to face two or three of you in wifi friendlies for like 1-3 hours then maybe I can do that whenever I wake up?

Edit: gonna say a thing or two though.

cons: Yoshi bomb has star hitboxes afterwards.

His stars were actually nerfed in range, they quite literally almost never hit now unless you're next to him, which you basically get hit by the down B if he did an aerial.
Though tbh I wonder if the new arc the stars come out is why we do even more damage to shields outside of the actual down b hits since those do 10 extra shield damage.

weight. Freeoshi is like Rollycario a faster moving heavy weight that can tank hits but unlike Rollycario and past game Yoshi Freeoshi can actually kill so now we can't just tank him to the same percents he dies at like we cound in Brawl.

He can only realistically tank hits till 70ish%, I know zelda got nothing but nerfs (poor princess) in this game so no idea on damage/knockback of moves like dair or her kicks now but I imagine if sweetspotted for the fair/bair it'd break it for sure while dair sourspot can still break it?

The actually can kill now statement isn't entirely true. Yoshi was always able to kill even in brawl (especially since chaingrabs gave him Usmash on some people, MK being one of em) but it's just the problem for him as well since brawl is always having to fish for the kill moves.
His most reliable way most common Yoshi's get kills in this game is throwing out empty fairs, reading opponent with downb/Usmash, trading with opponent using nair, or just Uair from underneath anyone which is one of the more rare kills we get now since we have a problem killing vertically most of the time.

super armor. I don't know if its a thing but i think if Freeoshi does an aerial during his doublejump part of that super armor is carried into his attack for like the star up frames.

It isn't. Yoshi's armor is completely gone if he does any aerial or action. Footstool gets rid of it completely too for obvious reasons. So if you see a yoshi UpB after a DJ, he has no armor + no doublejump so just pressure him offstage (if this sad character even can lol) and gimp him since the 2nd egg toss jump is pitiful.

i've only visially seen this on roll glory when i tried to Dair his uair and he like kept going even though i know my fub foot nipped him. maybe it was random roll glory trolling. but that second jump armor means we have to be wary of hitting Freeoshi during his second jump because we might get hit back for trying.

It most likely was just bad timing on the dair.

power. Freeoshi can kill now and has fast kill moves (what happened to balance?). in addition Freeoshi is good at whittling down shields with his moves like Dair, Bair, eggs.

Like earlier his main kill moves are usmash nair uair downb and fair, Yoshi's will very rarely throw out fsmashes when we already have invincible USmash for the feet.
Also the only real move that wittles down shields is dair and DownB.
Eggs not so much, just shield pressure kinda while bair is absolutely horrible. Have you seen that move? It's like 1 second for each hit to finish if somebody shields it.

eggs. eggs are obnoxious. they are wierd to reflect, hurt shields alot, hurt both in damage and in hitstun when you get hit and help Freeoshi come back onto the stage (again where is balance?)

Eggs are dumb yeah, dunno how a slow character like Zelda can deal with em tbh.
Can't hurt in damage since they only do 1-6%. The hitstun is mostly at higher percents + giving us the ability to follow up with fair for possible spikes (which we coined the pinball) because of our UpB mobility.
Balance in it basically being still no actual UpB recovery and instead of 5 hops from brawl we get 2 and a half (third one gives a very tiny boost, but barely noticeable and not worth it most of the time)

Pros:
honestly i don't feel like Zelda has any special pros in this matchup. other than if you catch him slipping you can Elevator or Ferrari's wind him out.

That's prolly your best bet, elevator for early kills.

1.shield trust- Freeoshi really can't hurt too bad if you block too much.
Freeoshi still has a quirky grab that is avoidable and his throws really don't hurt too bad. only other thing is Egg lay but with Farores you can easily break out if he tries to kill you with that. and if its on stage you'll take some damage but again its nothing to fear because he can't kill you in an egg.

Yoshi only hurts when he basically uses dair or DownB, so the shield part about him not hurting shields is true.
Egglay might be more of a con for you guys just cause it has decent range to avoid your now horrible smashes and gives us more time to just tack on more %, otherwise unless the Yoshi doesn't know, they shouldn't be near the egg thinking they're safe to be hit by neutral B and the fact the more % you guys have, the more inputs it takes to get out.

2. fast reaction- he Dash attacks? follow him and push him back with your own.

With how far his DA goes (albeit the ending lag is dumb) don't think the slow princess can catch up I think lol.

if you haven't fought Freeoshi offline or not much online he feels very safe but offline he does have some open spots that you can punish him for trying it. you just have to be on your game to punish because other than inviting Freeoshi to run into Nayrus or a Fsmash he's too fast for Zelda to charge him recklessly. and while i've only seen it on wifi he mashed a Nair inbetween my Dtilts. don't know if this is true offline but its something to keep in mind.

Honestly if it was any other character but zelda (well maybe not any, but... slow people) you can punish him anytime he does DA egg tosses or any fairs he does on your shield, but because you're Zelda I don't see how you guys can punish us much outside of side-b maybe for two of those options.
Nair comes out on frame 3 so if your dtilt popped him into the air I wouldn't be surprised if you got hit by it.

3. making him play Zelda's game. you want to get Freeoshi to play your game, not the other way around.

What game?

Not too sure what else to mention on the Pros side, need MU experience maybe before delving into that territory.

 

[BJN39]

Well, as far as playing other Zeldas here, @ Sinister Slush , @ Macchiato is a pretty good person to play if you wanna play one of our better Zeldas. I'm sure he'd like to play as well. P:

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

I'd be willing to play too.

 

[Macchiato]

Add me then @ Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Sorry none of the Yoshi mains came by to help, believe me I tried getting em over since I revamped our MU thread made posts and even linked it multiple times and brought it up in our skype group but our boards are more dead than Mii swordsman.

lol its too bad but it is what it is, thank you @ Sinister Slush for your input though as something is better than nothing. i'm not even sure if i have much to write any kind of summary off of anyways XD

His stars were actually nerfed in range, they quite literally almost never hit now unless you're next to him, which you basically get hit by the down B if he did an aerial.
Though tbh I wonder if the new arc the stars come out is why we do even more damage to shields outside of the actual down b hits since those do 10 extra shield damage.

maybe its me being too close then.

He can only realistically tank hits till 70ish%, I know zelda got nothing but nerfs (poor princess) in this game so no idea on damage/knockback of moves like dair or her kicks now but I imagine if sweetspotted for the fair/bair it'd break it for sure while dair sourspot can still break it?

The actually can kill now statement isn't entirely true. Yoshi was always able to kill even in brawl (especially since chaingrabs gave him Usmash on some people, MK being one of em) but it's just the problem for him as well since brawl is always having to fish for the kill moves.
His most reliable way most common Yoshi's get kills in this game is throwing out empty fairs, reading opponent with downb/Usmash, trading with opponent using nair, or just Uair from underneath anyone which is one of the more rare kills we get now since we have a problem killing vertically most of the time.

I guess Yoshi can fish easier than Zelda so i consider his kill ability better? Zelda is more commited on... everything

It isn't. Yoshi's armor is completely gone if he does any aerial or action. Footstool gets rid of it completely too for obvious reasons.

ah i see glad to know it was just me and not something new.

With how far his DA goes (albeit the ending lag is dumb) don't think the slow princess can catch up I think lol.

Honestly if it was any other character but zelda (well maybe not any, but... slow people) you can punish him anytime he does DA egg tosses or any fairs he does on your shield, but because you're Zelda I don't see how you guys can punish us much outside of side-b maybe for two of those options.

faroes can actually punish if predicted and depending on stage position she can punish DA if Zelda is fast enough OoS.. and if anything she can get back close to Yoshi for positioning if she is behind.

What game?

last point was more emphasizing both for myself and other Zelda's who have trouble with Yoshi to stay calm and never get panicky if they can help it. Yoshi can be stressful to fight even if he seems to just be blindingly pressing buttons (aka Freeoshi)

btw for the sake of a number what would you rank the matchup? even if you feel you don't have enough exp to really give one we do need just a few extra to really get a decent average for now.

 

[Macchiato]

@ Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ rooms open

 

[BJN39]

lol its too bad but it is what it is, thank you @ Sinister Slush for your input though as something is better than nothing. i'm not even sure if i have much to write any kind of summary off of anyways XD


maybe its me being too close then.



I guess Yoshi can fish easier than Zelda so i consider his kill ability better? Zelda is more commited on... everything

ah i see glad to know it was just me and not something new.


faroes can actually punish if predicted and depending on stage position she can punish DA if Zelda is fast enough OoS.. and if anything she can get back close to Yoshi for positioning if she is behind.



last point was more emphasizing both for myself and other Zelda's who have trouble with Yoshi to stay calm and never get panicky if they can help it. Yoshi can be stressful to fight even if he seems to just be blindingly pressing buttons (aka Freeoshi)

btw for the sake of a number what would you rank the matchup? even if you feel you don't have enough exp to really give one we do need just a few extra to really get a decent average for now.

I suppose if we end up having not too much data, we could tag it as "Low Data" or "Up for Rediscussion" and note it as a MU that should have a 2nd discussion sooner than other finished MUs. Like, when we have more experience and such.

Alternatively you could extent his discussion another week since we won't have to do Rosalina when we get to her.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

i was thinking of just putting low Data and having it open for random rediscussion at a later date. as we still have other characters to move onto lol...52 is a big number

 

[Macchiato]

GGs @ Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ your great and that was fun yet so stressful. Even though yew beat me all except 3 times I only always lost the match by like 40%. That was fun good job

So yoshi pressures zelda to no end and also has low lag so he's hard to punish. We have to be super defensive and patient. We actually can gimp Him with Dair depending on which part of the jump we hit. He also kills earlier than us and it's hard for us to elevator too unless he uses a dash attack. His main OOS tool is nair so shield since he probably won't shield grab. Imo the MU is 3-7 yoshi

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

ggs.

I remember you landing dair a couple times. iirc one was when I had to use up B, one where I threw out an aerial, and one that didn't knock me out of my double jump because I was at 0%. Not sure when it is but it will beat the heavy armor at some point. I didn't feel very threatened by Zelda's kill options because they all seemed somewhat telegraphed and knew I could punish most on whiff because of large endlag.